Inner-View; Interview with Leo Sayer

. I was just curious about that album, how did you do the cover photo? Well, I was on a trampoline, and I don't know if you can see in the picture there, but there's the sky, this was one of the, like when you go to the department stores, you

see that in the shoe department, and you see that sort of sky wallpaper, and they set that up on the wall, and I was on a trampoline, and I bounced up and down, and it was a remarkable feeling because I'd never been on a trampoline before, and they said, here's the trampoline, you just go up and down, so I was like, yeah, fine, great. So the first one I was about getting three inches off the floor, and then I was getting more and more and more, and the next day I couldn't walk, but it was great fun. But now whenever people see me, I have to go, like that, I just don't recognize me. It's quite an eye now, endless flight, of course, I could see the reason for it, it's a terrific title, and they take a great deal of care, don't they? Yeah, I had one cover that we did with, this guy was a fairly famous photographer in the States, and I did one with another photographer, and you know the cover itself I think cost

about 50 to 60,000 dollars, which just shows the degree of art, that I don't think is happening so much now, I think it's changing because people are saying, well, a content has got to be inside the record. Are you impressed by this guy, you know, when you go, you are, and that would might draw you to it, particularly a new person. But if you're going to someone like Leo Sayer, you're more familiar with the music, is the cover that important? Not really, not really. You are. I'm Matt Reynolds. The cover, it's not that important, if he is more of a rock star, and it depends on your music, really. He's more of a mellow music, and he doesn't have the elaborate of a cover, so I think that's appropriate. Is that appropriate designation, mellow, to say what you mean? Yeah, I think so, yeah.

I used to be up, I used to be up, I used to be up. I'm mellowing out. I'm mellowing with age, I'm like a good wine, I'm fermenting. I think it's true, actually, that, you know, there are so many different approaches. I mean, my record company now, they say, well, let's just put Leo's face on, that will be enough. And I mean, what you could do with a face, but there are so many clever ideas. I worked with a company just recently who did another album cover, it was called Living in a Fantasy, had that song more than I can say on, and that was back in 1980. And they were famous for their very clever ideas. They do all the covers by groups like the Pink Floyd, you know, those groups like the Dark Side of the Moon and things like that, whereas all clever concepts, you know, there's one with a pig flying through space. And they are incredible, I mean, it's got nothing to do with what we would say, like a Leo Sarah, more a Barbara Streisand album or something like that, where you just see the artist face on the cover. And they covered me up completely. I was, I became a collage, you know, bits of cut out paper, and in there, my face was

totally obliterated. And I was bits of scrapped cut paper, and it was very strange, and I couldn't recognize myself at all. And they asked people, you know, what they thought of the cover, and everybody said, yes, a great cover, but who is it, which just shows what can happen. And the problem, you know, we think about recording from our point of view when we just buy an album, and it's just, we don't realize $60,000, for instance, for the cover, and other things like that. So you have to be brought into it, particularly if you're doing something special. Well, I'm an Englishman, for instance, and I come to the States and make records in America, and that can be a very costly business. I mean, it adds up, and it's, well, because I stay on hotels and things like that, you know, and live in a hotel. I mean, why are you recording here? Well, I like working here in the States, and I think that some of the world's best producers and musicians are here. There's a group, do you know that group, Toto? Well, they play, for instance, on a lot of my albums, and I love, I know those guys, and I love playing with them.

And I play with them because they're the world's best, but they're very expensive, believe me. But I think that, you know, being a solo singer, I've got to try and work with the world's best, you know. So America is the place, you know. Okay, so you have the expense of travel. You have the expense of time, just your time just jumping up and down on the trampoline. Absolutely. But to do a particular song, give an example and say how long it takes to do it. Well, there's a song that, when I need you, for instance, that was, I think, my biggest hit in the States, it was number one here, and perhaps it all over the world, it was the biggest something, right? Do you like that song? Yeah. Or I need it. Do you, you say you like the song? Why? It's just really pretty, I just really like it. It brings a lot of feeling, I don't know, it just brings like memories kind of. Tell me who you are. My name's Missy Dombraski.

And it brings feelings about your own personal life, or do you feel the same way, but... Yeah. A lot of people see this, who come to the show, they see me singing the song and they say, yeah, it's about a particular time in my life. Okay, it's because 1976, I think it was, wasn't it? And they say, oh, yeah, I was with this boyfriend, or that boyfriend, then, or that, this girlfriend, that girlfriend. And they say, yeah, and that was our song, isn't that peculiar? It's a wonderful thing, you know, it's that way. Now, if it was your song for a particular person, does that ruin the song for you if that relationship might end with that particular person? Yes. Now, when I hear it, I kind of want to turn it off because it brings back sad memories to me. Ah, no. See the effect I have on people. Right. But this is a crucial... Thank you, Betsy. I remember. But that's crucial, isn't it? It is crucial.

Yeah. Easily identified with the same applied to you. Yeah. Yeah. With the same applied to you? Ah, so... That's like if you go back to a song like the way we were, for instance. Right. I mean, people were much older than all of us here. Well, we'll say, oh, that reminds me of, yes, when I was with my late husband, or so like that, you know, and that will happen. Because I think that a hit song, a hit record, captures seizes a moment in time, doesn't it? And that moment in time can so quickly go away, you know. It's like the records that are really big now, for instance. In about 20 years' time, there'll be, oh, the memories, you know. Yeah. But they don't mean the same exact thing. It's a wonderful thing, you know. It's a wonderful feeling for a performer. And you have a current hit. It's fabulous. It's like the whole world is singing your song. It's absolutely indescribable. You can get onto a bus, you know. And you're sitting on the back of a bus, you know, just innocently traveling along. And up the front, some guy's going, you know, and he's whistling your song.

And you think, that's my song! OK, take us through that song from the moment you got the germ of the idea to its eventual production. Well, that was a song, for instance, which was written by a couple of American writers, Guy called Albert Hammond, and a lady called Carol Bayer-Sega, who's probably more well-known for what she writes lyrics with Marvin Hamm relation, and Bert Bacarack. In fact, I think she just got married to Bert Bacarack, I believe. Is that right? I hope we're right. Anyway, so she was a wonderful, wonderful songwriter, and I knew her, and she said, well, I've got a great song. Do you want to listen to her? And I said, yeah. OK, great. So she brought it into the studio while we were recording, on a tape, actually, on just a cassette tape, because that's usually the way the songs travel around. And she brought it to us, a recording studio in Los Angeles, so I was recording with a guy called Richard Perry, famous producer.

And we listened to the song, we thought, this is very interesting. The demo cassette, which in other words, the demonstration version of the record, which they had put down, with Albert Hammond, the music writer singing, with the complete song, actually didn't sound that different than the version that we eventually released as a record, which I recorded. But to find that, we must have recorded the same song with about three different bands about six or seven different recording sessions. We tried recording it every single way possible, because we didn't want to copy the original demonstration record. So or demonstration tape, but eventually we got around to doing it, is that the same, because that was the way to do it. And I always remember that record, when it was first released as a single, in fact, it didn't have, there's a sax solo, tena sax solo on the record. It didn't have that on the version that's on the album, which is this album.

It had like a wash of synthesizers in the middle section. And I was out on tour at the time, and I used to have this very famous sax player, Bobby Keys, who used to be with Rolling Stones, and he was playing a tena sax solo. And we all thought it worked so well, and the audience liked it, we thought, let's put that onto the single. So when we made the single, we took Bobby into a studio in New York, put the tena sax solo on, and then made that through the studio, through the board, and everything, cut that onto the record, and released that as the single. But when it first came out, I think it was one of the longest, it took the longest time of any record I think that year, in 1976, to reach the top ten. I think it was about 30 weeks or something. You know, I would sort of sit around, how's the record during, you know, I'd be in Albuquerque, New Mexico or somewhere, and I'd be on the phone, you know, I'd say, how's the record doing?

And someone would say, well, it's gone up one place, it's number 495, and slowly but surely it rose up the chance, and that was a unique experience. Oh, that must be very exciting. It's happened, I've had a few of them, you know, and every time you sit there biking your nails. What surprised me before is, is someone, one of you was saying something about, you don't necessarily buy titles, no one was saying. Someone was saying, somewhere in America, someone was saying that they're not that conscious of titles as much as they are, songs, oh, that's what I meant. Yeah, it's just like the words, you can relate more to the words in remembering, because I know I can remember a little chorus line instead of the title, so that's what usually it is. Do you ever find that really, because I see, when I write songs, because I write a lot of my own songs as well, and when I write a song, I always think of, I think of the title first, when I have about five million great titles going through my brain, and then I've got to put the lyrics to it and then start from there.

But by the time a song has actually finished, the title doesn't matter. It's like really, I guess, there are a lot of bands around now that have very clever names, you know, like Blondie and like, I can't think of them all, but there are all these very, very clever names, but in the end, you kind of forget about the name and the identity of the band all blends into one, and you get a sort of feeling, it's like a performer, it's like, say, Don Rickles, I mean, nobody in the world could go with the name Don Rickles, but Don Rickles, there's something in his face that says Don Rickles, and it's strange, identity is like that, isn't it? What does your face say? My face says confused, but I think, I mean, back in England, for instance, where I suppose I am kind of a bit of a household name, you know, like Clorox Bleach or something like that, you know, I'm a product, but they are, you know, they know me as Leo, and I guess a face, my face, it's instantly Leo, and it's very strange, it's hard for me to get used to,

because over here, you know, I'm mostly known as Richard Simmons, so it's very strange, people all the time, you know, they keep spot, I went to the food market the other day, and somebody said, Excuse me, are you Richard Simmons? So I thought, just for a change, I'll say, yes, and they said, I just laugh your show. How do you do it, you know, the exercise, and then when it's about half an hour? Hand them a card. It was unbelievable. That doesn't disturb you, boy? No, not really, I met him just recently, it was funny, we, I don't know if you can catch this, but we met together, and he is actually up here, he's kind of higher than I am, and he's broader than I am, and yet, if you put out two heads together, it's remarkable. I mean, I can't, can't work it out, he's my long-lost brother or something, but I tell you that, he's better than I am, I know that, but it is amazing to have a double, you know? I have a soccer player in England, who's a double, and people keep thinking I'm him, and

he's more popular than I am, so I've done very well. From the celebrity status, I point of view, however, you know, I would think there are a lot of entertainers who might get really annoyed about the fact that someone is not recognising them, but someone else. Yeah, I think Richard Simmons is funny, because I mean, I like him. So you have no ego problem? Oh no, no, no, no, because, because you see, I mean, I do that song, you make me feel like dance, and then I do a song, you know, I can't dance, and the secret is, I'm terrible to answer. And the idea of being recognized as Richard Simmons, who's, you know, the world's fittest man, it's kind of amusing to me, so it can only help, maybe it adds to my persona, you know? And that can happen often, yeah. You use the word persona, how, how are you using it? Well, it's kind of like a new kind of fridge or something, no, no, no, no, no. Identity, personality.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I often see, I often think of myself as a different person. I mean, I think of my stage person. My real name is Jerry Gerard, would you believe that? Unbelievable, isn't it? Same last name. And, and, and same last, last name, Sayah. And I, I, I decided to keep that just for my dad's sake, and it, it's very strange. Why change the first name? Well, I thought, when I was, when I was starting off, they used to be all those, those, those kind of, uh, fanzine magazines, you know, like, uh, teen and 60, you know, those, those kind of magazines. And I always thought, well, if it, if mine, if I became famous, and they put Jerry is new here, music hero, or something, everybody think, well, there are about six or seven Jerry's. And I thought, how many Leo's were there, and there weren't many. And, um, it also came from my, my manager's wife, actually, she, she said, he looks like a little lion. So, you know, with this mane of hair. Uh-huh.

So, uh, that's how it started, you know, so let's call him Leo. So I went home and frantically decided to, uh, try, autographing and seeing if I could get used to writing the word Leo, and it became more and more comfortable, so I got used to it. Establishing a whole persona, image, uh, personality, doesn't happen overnight. No, I, I started funny enough. I don't know if people were remember, I, I used to be dressed as a white face, white face clown. Does anybody remember that? At all. It was a, a long time back of 1974, and I used to be completely white faced, had a little black cap, um, I used to be dressed as a, a sad clown, as the pyro of the French theatre. And, um, and I came over here and I had a song called The Show Must Go On. Do you remember that song? Um, three dog night, in fact, had a number one hit with it while I was trying to do my clown thing. And, uh, funny enough, I think one of them even performed. Do you remember three dog night doing that? Yeah. Yeah, and they used to, one of them performed as a clown.

Well, they saw me apparently performing in England, and they thought, this would be great. This is a number one hit, so they did the same thing. They admitted it to me. They're, they're very nice about it, but, uh, it would, that's how I used to perform when I started out. I was Leo, say, out of the clown. Singing as a clown. Singing as the clown. Uh, any mind? Yeah. I mean, I still have little bits that I do in The Show, you know, and I, I just can't stop it. But, uh, don't know, the hands just go crazy. And, yeah, very animated on stage. Yeah. But, but it's, it's interesting. I mean, during that time, I, I had a whole shield. I mean, I was completely masked by it, you know? And, uh, I used to, um, used to put the makeup on. My wife used to do the makeup. It was a really thick, pancake plaster makeup. I used to stay on for 11 hours. We do three shows a night, and a little club in Los Angeles called The Troubadour. And we're out in John play. And, uh, I used to stay, keep it on, you couldn't smile, you're going to say like this, and I had little red spots on the cheek, as unbelievable. How would you feel if you saw him, uh, in a, the white face now?

Would that detract from, uh, enjoying him? I used to scare people. I think he's very different, but would you be turned off by that if he did it now? No, not really. No, no, be like his image. Yeah. It's like a kiss, isn't it, or something? Yeah, but his image is very different now. Uh, the image is not a white face, clown. Or is it? No, not to me, it isn't. So, as I say, what would happen if he just appeared now? Pardon me? I wouldn't take any of his slow songs serious, like, you know, when I need you. I can see a clown singing, you know, says a slow like that. Yeah. I wasn't actually doing the slow songs then, it's funny you should say that. I mean, I was, uh, when you took it all off, and there's a real Leo sir. It did. It was, it was very scary, in fact, performing without it, because I got so used to it. You know, it was, I could almost get away with anything with that mask on. Well, we come back.

Let's, uh, let's talk about, uh, your early beginnings and see what happens. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And we're in conversation with Leo sir. Hi.

And it was flight. I want to get to know a little bit about your beginnings where, where it all happened. Hi, you are. I need a camper. Um, what gave you the idea of becoming a singer? Did you always want to sing when you were small or do you just all of a sudden start? Uh, well actually, it started a very strange way. Um, when I was a, when I was a kid, I used to be very good at art. I was a painter, you know, not, not like a house painter, but a, uh, uh, uh, painter decorator. I was, I used to do painting and I used to join. Um, and I went to art college and, uh, at art college, it was about the time when, you remember Bob Dylan? From, from the old days when he used to start, when I had that cat. And he used to sing those folk songs, protest songs. And everybody was, it was about that time of, of, of, of, of all the protest and focusing in. And I used to play the harmonica. And I, I, I just fooled around with the harmonica really. And, and I, uh, I used to play with a lot of guys who were playing at the school guitarist, you know.

And, uh, I thought, this is interesting, you know. Hmm. This is a little bit better than what I'm doing. So when I left art college, which was down on the South Coast of England, in a place called Brighton in Sussex in England, very idyllic spot, very old fashioned England. Um, and I went to the big city, about 50 miles away, unlike the States, which was London. And, and I went to London and I, I, uh, I got to know a lot of guys who, uh, what we call street musicians, buskers. And they used to play to the, uh, the movie audiences, waiting to go into the movies. And that's how I started. And that was my first audience. Was all those, you know, movie cues. And they're all waiting to see some movie, you know. And I'm running up and down, going, on the harmonica. And that's how I started. And I, I, I slowly but surely got into bands. I would play the harmonica. And then in the end, I, I started singing. I never even knew I had a voice, you know. It was, it was quite, it was quite, at the start, you know.

I just used to scream every words, you know. And I was perfect candidate for one of those heavy metal rock bands, you know. And then slowly but surely I kind of got into it and, and, and changed, you know. Why didn't you go to heavy rock? Uh, well I did for a while actually. Um, but I found out that, uh, that I was getting too many headaches. Because, you know, the, the only problem with, with, with heavy metal rock is that you, to, to, to do it really successfully, you've got a ball at the same level every night. And, um, and every now and then I, I, I moonlight from being Leo Sarah actually. And I, I go off and sing with the rock band. It's quite, it's quite fun actually just to keep my hand in. But, um, you, you really, you have to have such a strong voice. Because it's a hundred to one that the lead guitarist, you know, guys, posing with the guitar up there. He's always louder than you are. So you've got to fight him on the stage. And I, I, I, after a while I got tired of that. I thought, no, and I heard Stevie Wonder and I thought, oh, hey, maybe I could do this, you know.

So, uh, so that's how I, I, I can't. But it must be more than just the loud voice to do the, the before. Yes, yes, yes. There, there's various techniques, you know. Um, I used to sit there. Actually, I, I learned to sing really by, my technique, I guess, by mimicking records, you know. And I used to get out my jococca record and I go, what would it do? I would say, what would it do? And then I'd get out my Led Zeppelin record and go, ah, ah, ah, ah. And, you know, I'd, I'd mimic all the records. And, and it is. So the teenagers who mimic the records today might be the Led Zeppelin record way of starting. I've, I've often said that to people, you know, put on your favorite record, Hall and Oats or whatever, you know. And, and try and sing like them. Yeah, we surely know a lot of musicians. For instance, piano players are guitarists who learn that, just by following the record. In fact, I was talking to a, quite a, a well-known guitarist with a band. And he was saying he started off. He didn't even have a guitar. And he used to listen to people like Jimmy Hendrix and Eric Clapton. And he used to listen to them play. And he, he kind of make the sounds with his, his mouth. You know, he got, ah.

And, and get it with his, and, and he'd imitate until he actually knew in his brain what he wanted to do. And then he got the guitar and he found it very easy to play the notes. Because already, you see, he kind of, it's all about emulating your dream. If you want to be a dancer, you've got to try and dance, you know. It doesn't matter how bad you are. You're soon to get it right. It doesn't matter how bad a singer you are if you want to be a singer. You know, you just got to try it. And, ah, I mean, after all, it's only you and your bedroom. There's nobody else watching. So, you're sitting there doing it by yourself, you know. But it's threatening. It's threatening to try it because, because you might fail. Yeah. Is anybody ever thought of, of, of doing anything like that in show business? Anybody ever wanted to be, I'm sure you've wanted to be a singer or something like that or a dancer or a, yeah. You ever have the book? Any secret dreams? Have you ever wanted to do that? But most people, of course, who do sing with the records and do sing in the shower, don't, don't do any more of it because it might be too threatening. Well, that's true.

The threatening about what? What was the biggest fear that you might have had of just someone saying, well, who cares? I was going to say, I think a lot of people don't realise the talent that they have inside them. And I think we're all talented. People come to me and say, ah, yes, but you're talented. And I don't think that I'm, I may have found my talent, but I don't think I'm any more talented than anybody else, you know. I think I've just been able to challenge it, to channel it rather because, you know, the fears that you start off with when you first perform or something like that, I mean, it's daunting. But it's like some manic thing inside you saying, no, but you must go on. Don't worry about the tomatoes, you know. Keep going. Whatever you do, keep going. You know, because sooner or later you're going to realise your dream. And that's, to me, the greatest thing in life, to realise the dreams, you know. So you see some really, all your girls up there. You see some really handsome guy at school and you want to win his life, you know. He's the guy, you know, hey, what can I do to impress him? You've maybe got to sometimes find your talent inside you and that will impress people.

And I found that's helped me in life. Believe me, when I was at school, I used to be so ugly. And I was so small. I was terrible. I was the smallest kid in school. I got beaten up every day, six times. So, you know, but I had a talent, you know, and I worked on it and thought, I'll show these people. So now... Where was school? School was a little, I'm a Catholic, a Roman Catholic school, a mixed school for boys and girls back in England. We have a different kind of different system because we have different examinations. You go to the first school, I think until you're 11 years old, then you go to the second school until you're about 16 or 18 if you want to stay on. And we have these things called O levels and A levels and their examinations that you take at the end. It's a totally different system, but I guess it's kind of similar, you know. But when I was at school...

In Brighton? Actually, it was in a little place called Goring, which was rhymed with boring and believe me it was. And I used to get on the train every day. That's how I learned to play the harmonica really on the train. I used to get into the train. I used to try and get what they called a compartment, a little separate, little compartment where there would only be... No corridor by the side. There would only be me. So between the stations I would play to the sound of the rails. Tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk tuk, tuk tuk on the harmonica. And I taught myself how to play the harmonica, and that was it. But at school, you know, I mean, I don't know. I think you don't know who you're going to be yet, do you? Is that right? I don't think anybody at school, ever knows. Do you think that's right, Charles? I think at school, you know, you haven't really quite realized what you want to be. You're still coming around. There's a wonderful management philosopher by Peter Drucker, who writes a great deal of management books and he teaches at Harvard Business School and things

like that. And he has a saying on his wall, here I am 57 years of age. And I still don't know what I'm going to be when I grow up. Yeah, that's true. So it's always a constant process. Yeah. I really do it a bit. Ah, a question here. From the lady in the corner. Tell us your name again, we've. OK, Liz Finney. And I was wondering, OK, once you decided you're going to be a singer or whatever, and you got nervous and stuff. Deez, your arm gestures and things like that, because I'm Oh, yeah. Because I can tell you to make it silly to get over your nervous feeling, because I know I do that. I always remember. Are you nervous right now? Yes. Yeah. Very. Why? What do you... I don't know. I feel very stupid now. I think you do feel like that, don't you? See, I've got so used to it now, because I've been doing it so much. I don't really think about it. How did it feel when you first did it? When I first did it, I mean, even standing here. You see, we're in a studio here and now, and I think people on watching the TV probably,

it's hard to understand that. Because you feel we're relaxed if you're watching the TV at home. And then, actually, if you get here, there's all these lights. To make this happen, we create a very artificial atmosphere, don't we, really? We're almost... It's not really real life. I mean, we don't have lights like this in our house. And we've got all these hot lights down here. We're things like this in front of us. And at the other end, you're thinking, well, there's got to be about 10,000, 20,000, 50,000, 100,000, 500,000 people watching this. They're going to see me making a fool of myself. And every time I put my hand there, they're going to think, why is he doing that? He's at 20 times already. And that does make you feel nervous. But I think you get to slowly but surely, I suppose. I mean, this is Charles and I would know this. And it's unfair to expect you all to feel the same way. But we know this. After a while, you get to feel that there is no difference between being here in front of the lights and sitting at home.

Is there really in the end? It gets... Unscary. But... How do you feel when you see yourself on TV? I hate it. I was just going to come to that. I really hate it. Oh, is anybody ever seen themselves on TV? Yeah, I have. Yeah. I think we're all going to be seeing each other on TV, on TV quite a lot, actually. Not just this show, but now in the age of video, we're all going to end up getting video cameras. And we're all going to use them at home. And Mom's going to take films of us, you know, and we're going to take films of Mom, and she's going to see us, and we're going to see her, and everybody, we're going to get real used to it. But it is scary. I hate watching myself on TV. I think who, you know, his voice is right up inside my head. I hear my voice quite down there. You know, like a little baritone. I think of myself as John Wayne, you know. But out there, I end up being like... Like me, it's horrible. It's a horrible realization. Tell us about the first time you're performed

in either a nightclub or some kind of a theater with a paid audience. What was that like? Oh, horrendous. And what was the circumstance, if you're going to... Funny. You were saying about the hands. And I used to... I used to fiddle with a mic stand all the time. In between every song, it was... Well, I... I'm... This is a... This is a song, which... And it was like that. I think the first show... The first time I actually ever was on stage. I was playing the harmonica. And it was in a folk club in London. And they used to have a thing called... It was titled, Come All Ye, which meant... Anybody who comes, if you want to play, all you have to do is see the guy and you can get up on stage and you can play. So in other words, say all of us in this room, any of us, we all wanted to play. We wanted to try it out. There's only the people in the room. So, you know, we're not too scared. We're not going to get too scared performing in front of our friends.

So, that's what it was like. And I went on finally at about five o'clock in the morning. It was an all-night thing. I was so tired. I'd never stayed up that late. I was five o'clock in the morning. I went on and I played my harmonica. And it was so loud because I played right into the microphone. Everybody woke up. I was like, shut up, get off. It was absolutely disastrous. But I can't remember many of the early shows because I think it's because I used to get so nervous before. I used to blot out any memory of the show in the end. Hi, I'm Dawn Howard. And what year did you finally come over here and was music your main purpose for coming to the United States? Oh, definitely. Definitely. Although, when I was a kid, I used to get... You know, the Randwick-Nally Atlas. I used to get that. You know how when you're a kid, you lie in there. It's a hot summer day and a kind of cockroach runs along. And you've got the map out and the cockroach is going, hey, he's into Nebraska now.

He's going to Wyoming. And I used to sit there and dream, like watching the cockroach going through the map. And I was dreaming of going to all these places. I always wanted to come to the States. But it was music that first brought me here. And I came in 1974, the first time and played a tour of clubs. And that's when I was dressed, like that, as the clown, as all white face. And nobody would recognize me. I used to take the make-up off, run outside, come around the front of the theater. And I'd hear all the people coming in, coming, sorry, out of the theater. And they'd all say, hey, he was pretty good, really, wasn't he? And I'd say, yeah, he was, wasn't he? Wonder who he is in real life. Wonderful. I definitely had two lives. You had a, of course, the beginnings of a substantial career before you came over here in 1974. Yes. Did it feel better and more secure with that, or would you? Oh, yeah. I think America would you have come over if you didn't have that kind of firm base? Oh, I think I was dying to come over here.

Because, you know, to me, my influences, you see, we're all performers from the States. You see, a lot of my, I guess, my contemporaries, people like, ooh, who knows? You know, all the singers like me, Rod Stewart, Elton John, they all love the Beatles. I never really liked the Beatles very much. Not for a long time. Now, I love them. But my heroes were people like Otis Redding, and all the great blues singers and jazz singers. And I love those people. And I had to come and see where they'd performed. It's like if you go to England. And I hear a lot of American people say, they go to England, and they deliberately make a trip to Liverpool in England, which is the home of the Beatles, you know? And they've got to walk down those streets and they've got to go to Penny Lane, and they have to go to Strawberry Fields, which is an actual little park, you know? All these places from the songs, and they live. And when I first came to the States, I had to go to all the places. I had to go to Memphis, because I heard everybody singing

about Memphis, Tennessee. I thought, was this wonderful place? And when I actually went there, you know, it's kind of, Memphis is a kind of sad place, really. It's almost like a little junkyard town there. And when I first went down there, and I walked down Bill Street, because I always heard those songs, you know, like the Bill Street boy, and Baby King was, you know, Baby King, the guitarist, he's Blues Boy King, or Bill Street boy, Blues Boy King. And so I had to go down to Bill Street. When I went down this street, it was frightening. There was nothing there. It was all bombed out, you know? And it was a frightening realization, but I had to do that, because it was my dream, you know? Have you ever wanted to go to a place like that, like go to Paris or something like that, you know? It's a dream, isn't it? What were the things, though, that were not disappointments that were even larger than life when you got here? Ah, well, various things, actually. I remember, and funny enough, the first time I came to Vegas was thrilling, because we came over Hoover Dam at night in a bus.

You know, one of those wonderful tour buses that you, like Burrera Lins, tour bus, you know? That kind of thing. And it was one of those wonderful tour buses, and we were all up the front, and I was never been to the last Vegas before, you know? Like that, you know, at the front of the bus. You know, 50 faces at the front of the bus. The driver's going to fight in the drive. And as we came in, all the lights were there, you know? And I always heard about the lights in Vegas, and I thought, no, it's not going to be much. And saw these lights, you know, carpet of lights. It was incredible. What about your first feelings of Los Angeles? Los Angeles was also mind-blowing. A New York is the one. Boy, to go across the bridge in New York, you don't think any city can be as big as that. Right. It's incredible. Well, we'll come back. An Englishman in the USA. Welcome back. We'll talk a little bit maybe about New York, but also about that wonderful song Dancing. OK. How much do you need for your new song? And we're having a conversation with Leo Seymour.

Thank you. But we also, Leo, you said something about the Beatles, and I know there's a Beatles fan here. You have your choice and chance now to dispute him. Well, how old were you? How do you mind if I ask you how old you are now? I'm 34 now. 34. So when did you start playing the harmonica and all that kind of stuff? When did all this start? How old were you? I guess I was about 16, 17, 15, 16, 17. It's hard to remember exactly anywhere in those three years. But is that when you first started to perform? Funny enough, the Beatles you were saying, do you ever remember that record? Love me, do. This is the first ever Beatles hit. And John Lennon played the harmonica.

Yeah, that's one of the first harmonic records I've ever heard. Oh, really? I wanted to play from that. But everybody raved about the Beatles. And I really... How old were you? How old were you when they were? I think they're just... Again, about the 16, 17, yeah. And they were just coming over to the States, I think, for the first time then. And I will know how to do that. So that wasn't your main influence, that? No, it was the blues thing. I loved Ray Charles and Odes Redding, as a Saiyan, and BB King, and all those singers. And then there was Paul Simon and Bob Dylan, you know? To me, America seems so magical, you know? Go back to New York, your first impression. Large, what else? Earlier, I was equating being in America to the songs that I used to love before coming to America. And, you know, that song, 59th, Bridge Street song, Feeling Groovy. La, da, da, da, slow down, you're moving too fast.

And I went on 59th Bridge Street. You know, sorry, 59th... A Street Bridge. That's right. Get it right. And I was on the bridge, you know, and the song came on the radio, and that was wonderful. You know, and all the buildings kind of huge. New York is an incredible place, because I think it's a place where, shall we say, you know, dreams can come true, because I mean, there's all these buildings like a joke, you know? I mean, they're so big, somebody must have had a nightmare one night, and thought them up, you know? Places becoming stimulants for you, okay? Creatively, creatively, if you are going across 59th Street Bridge, and even though somebody has already written a song about it, would you think about writing another one, or would you do something on a variation on that? Yeah, there's always a variation. I mean, recently I spent some time in Paris, for instance, and there's a song on my new album called Paris Dies in the Morning, and I mean, there have been millions of songs

written about Paris, but I thought of a new one, you know? And you can always think of a new one, but I don't know, do you ever feel that when you go to a place, you feel inspired by the place itself, and you want to do something? I draw a picture, or write a poem about it, or, you know, something, it's so different and so magical, you know? That often happens when you go somewhere, I mean, even like going to Disneyland, you know? Tell us more about the creative process in terms of songs. You said earlier that you start with a title, even though the song itself transcends the title, but okay, you get a title. Can you give us an example? Not dance, and we'll wait for that one, but- Yeah, yes, let me think. There's a song called Long Tall Glasses. I can dance. Do you remember that one? You know I can dance. You know I can dance. I have to sing them all in full set today, and it was a song that was inspired by my dad used to show Old Charlie Chaplin movies when I was a kid, he used to show him at home

in the front room, and we used to see all these Old Charlie Chaplin movies and see this kind of guy going, you know, doing all of them, and things like that, and I used to always love Charlie Chaplin, and I thought, oh my god, you know, wouldn't it be great to do that on stage? So I thought, well, try and find a song where I can do that on stage. So I started writing a song about, do you remember a movie called The Gold Rush, which was probably Chaplin's most famous, it was the great one. And there's a scene where he goes into a room, this bar room, kind of Klondike bar room, and there's this beautiful girl there, and he really wants to dance with her, but he doesn't, he can't quite do it, you know, and there's all this food there, and he's starving hungry, absolutely starving hungry. And I wrote the song all about that, the methodology of the ideas, if that's the right word, all sort of just came into my head, wow, I just threw it down on paper, in fact, most

of the song I wrote as I was singing it, I just made it up, and it just seemed to come together, but I already had the idea and the title in my head, Long Tool Glasses, came from somewhere, and you know I can't dance. You hum it, and you write the notation, notes and music, you do it. Well actually, I don't write music, but you said you were humming it. Yeah, I was kind of humming it, but most of it actually, oh, you said destroying the set, most of it comes from various, it's totally unpredictable, I mean I don't really to this day know where the songs come from, it's like a little person comes along and taps me on the shoulder and says, I got an idea for you, and they really, a famous old blue singer used to say, I call my song Sky Songs because they come from the sky, and that's just about what it's like really, but there is no set pattern, I mean sometimes I find myself falling around on a piano and an idea comes, sometimes it just appears like a vision, you know.

Tell us about what, oh, I've got a question here, I'm going to read, I'm going to remake the set, get a job here, okay. When you go into a studio to record a song, do you have anything prepared and you know exactly what you do or do things like that? Yes, we have, yes, when we go into the studio, for instance, I've just made an album, this new album with a guy called Rieff Martin, who's famous producer, you know, Rieff Franklin and Wilson Pickett and all those singers, he used to do all those people, and he does Melissa Manchester and people like that, and he is not only a very good producer, but he's a great arranger, so he would sit down with me in New York and we'd sit down by the piano and we'd literally work out everything we were going to do with a song, and he would write down all the parts, like the part 4, the bass guitar, the guitar, trombone, to whatever, you know, all of the parts, the drums and everything, and then we would go into the studio and work from that preparation, and sometimes it works like that, and then sometimes it's

just, believe me, a free-for-all jam session. Like I think we should talk about, you make me feel like dancing, which really became from a jam session, I was sitting in the studio, a few musicians and myself, and we were falling around, it was in between recording another song and just sort of let off steam in the middle, they played a rhythm, and I started singing it, just a kind of crazy off the wall thing, Richard Perry ran the producer, ran to the control room, quit, put it down on tape, get this, catch this, and two days later played me back the tape, and he said that is a hit, that is a stone cold hit, it's a number one. So I said you must be kidding, it was terrible, you know, I don't usually sing like that,

and he persuaded me to start working on it, and I worked on it with a songwriter, a guy who he knew, and we sat down, we started working on it and pulled it together, called it, you make me feel like dancing, and believe me, it was just a jam session, that's all it was, and we went in the studio with a bunch of musicians, and we cut it, I think, in one take, which is one take, one time, that's right, we have technician here, the right words, so it's just one time. Alan is a take you to cut that whole album that you just finished, the new one with this new producer, Ruth Martin, which is called World Radio, was very, very complex, and it took up to six months, but all in all, but I'm quite a perfectionist, so I like, I do one thing and I don't believe it's good enough, so then I want to do it again, got another question

here. I was wondering, when you came here, was there anybody that inspired you, or did you have any kind of a family life with anyone, or, I mean, did you have a wife when you came here? Yes, yes. You just on your own. Yes, I was already married, I have a wife, Jan, who, in fact, she makes my tea and still puts on the make-up, and she still does well, she looks after all the clothes, and she is, yeah, I mean, I guess you'd say my inspiration, really, and that's good, you see, because show business is very difficult, I mean, I don't think sometimes people realise how difficult it is sometimes, because you're travelling from city to city to country to country, there's a lot of pressure and demand, you hear of, you know, star has never spooked down. And that's nearly always because they're very lonely, and it can be a very lonely life, and I'm lucky, I've got my wife, you know, and we've been married for eight, nine years, it's, it's great, fabulous, another question here, okay, Charles is running around with

a microphone, this is, this is a lively show. And I was wondering, do you think you might venture into other aspects of the entertainment industry, like maybe, say, producing your own album, or maybe going to television or movies? Yes, something I really, really want to do, I made a series on television in England, and I'm just going over there to do another one, and sometimes, in a blue moon, they sometimes buy the English series and put them on America, they, in fact, they did it, actually, I think one of the series came on, and there are, we've had a few offers from the States, and a few people have said, well, I'd love to have you for a series over here, but we just wait until you have a few more hits, but I'll try and do that, yeah. What is the feel, Leo, of people like yourself who have had certain success, and all of a certain, it might be over in two years, and I might be just a flash in a pan.

Well, that happens all the time, you know, that's the fear. It goes on. I mean, for instance, my career, I've had, I don't think a lot of people in the States know this, but I've had nine, ten albums, and you know, they only think, see, you've had one or two, because they only remember the really big hits, you see, but you have a good album, then you have a bad album, then you have a good album, then you have two bad ones, then you have another good one, then you have three bad ones, and it's always up and down, it's very hard to be at your best all the time, and it's sad, but, and I often criticise this, but I think, you know, artists, groups and records, I mean, for some reason, we have to keep making LPs, I wish we could just make singles, because we all make singles much better, don't we? I mean, you'd go and buy singles, but you know when you buy an album and most of the tracks are all boring, you know, and there's one good one on there that's the hit, that's because we have to do so much, but every year we have to turn out 12 songs, you know, on an album, ten songs, say, two that go on the B side, and it's tough to do that, you

know, you'd rather pull your imagination into, say, five singles or something like that, so that's why it goes up and down very much, you know, it's very hard to stay at. And so when it goes down, that must be a desperate time of, will they ever love me again, kind of? Exactly. Or will I ever have that incredible luck of that jam session dancing? That's right. Well, you end up, I think you end up having faith in yourself, you know, it becomes, maybe, again, like I said, it shouldn't become a lonely profession, but it comes a lonely profession, but you have faith in yourself, you know, you sort of believe in yourself and you say, well, at least as long as I can prove to myself that I'm good to myself, so I believe in myself, then I'm going to get through, you know, in other words, it doesn't matter what they think, I think I'm good. And you somehow carry on, you know, and then you wait until everybody gets to like you again and you say, ah, this is good, yeah, right? She, where have you been? But it is, but it is very up and down, you know. It's a frightening world sometimes, because also you realize a great responsibility

on your head, because people here say a song from you that is really good, and they tend to base their whole viewpoint of you on that song. So in other words, you've got to be as good as that song all this time. But, was I heard someone say, put it, you're as good as your next performance? Exactly. Or you were as good as your last year, maybe, you know, even more scary. But it's like, you know, I had an interesting thing happen to me say a couple of years ago, and I had a song called More Than I Can Say, which was an old old song by Bobby Vee, remember Bobby Vee? And we dug this song up, found it and dressed it up, and it went to number two in the States. And you know what? Everybody said Leo Sarah, come back. And I thought, I've never been away. I've been here all the time. I've been making records like Mad. But suddenly everybody said he makes his come back. And I thought, that's ironic. But that's life, I guess, you know. That's how it is. It's like it for a guy an actor who makes movies, you know. I mean, you never notice all the bad

movies, you notice all the good ones. Another question is coming out here. How many albums do you have out on the market now? Well, I think there's ten or nine of made, I think. And they can be found in junk stores everywhere. I think they're all still on current release, actually. Oh, by the way, that's a big problem facing all of you recording artists, isn't it? The cost of the album. And the fact that people are recording them illegitimately. Yes, yes, it's a problem. It's a big financial loss. Well, yeah. I mean, like many other artists, I have to admit, I did it myself and I have done it myself and still do it myself. I must admit, you know, because we all do it. I mean, it's like it's wonderful. The cassette machine is the most incredible invention ever. It's like the video cassette machine. I mean, how do we all say that we don't record programs on the TV when we all do, you know? So it's

like somebody made a boob somewhere and they made a big mistake. And they made the cassette tape. So, you know, what do you do with it? You live with it. That's it. It is a problem. I think worse than that. What frightens me is the cost of albums now. It's something like 895 or something. And I really think that that should come down. It's ludicrous. It costs a lot of money to make a record. But I think that the stars and the producers and the engineers and all the people involved in making a record are asking for too much money. That's why your records are expensive. It's like the cost of concerts. They shouldn't be what they are. You know, it's ludicrous. But it's the entertainer who's saying who's saying, look, I'm here and I might be going down. So I think they put a price on here fast. We're noticing this in this town, aren't we, with some of the performers who are playing here? Yeah. And that's why I'm sort of a little bit distressed to think that there aren't more people like me who have come from Pop and Rock who will play Las Vegas because we don't want the millions and millions of dollars. We just want to play. And it's a shame.

There aren't more young performers coming out because I think as the performers get older and older and older, they're going to ask for more and more money, you see, because they get more and more scared. It's true. It's true. It's sad, but it's true. But I think Vegas is into a change. I think you're going to see a lot of young performers here now. I know it's Boss Skags, who you probably all know. He's starting to play these type of gigs. Sheen Areiston, a great singer from England. She's on her way. She's starting to play these type of dates. Believe me, it'll be very soon when you see Rod Stewart and Elton John. They'll all be in the showrooms. And Vegas will go very young. It will change, you know? A question about your influence of American movies. You saw the Charlie Chaplin. Okay, let's take it to a new popular movie, ET, everybody loves it. How do you respond in terms of your creativity?

Yeah, I just saw it. And would you get a song? I've been looking all day. I've been tearing around the streets of Vegas looking for ET. Is he behind this dustbin or is he behind that dustbin? No. I think, yeah, I mean things like movies, they really, really involve you and they really take you over. And I was thinking ET was so wonderful. I think that the whole thing could be encapsulated down to a song. It would be great. I don't know how to even start writing the song, but wouldn't it be great to think that ET was true? Have you ever thought about that? I mean, the ET really was true and there, somebody somewhere in a bedroom in Illinois has ET hiding there, you know? I'm like sort of the goals. And that would be exciting. Oh, you're fabulous. So are you working on it? Are you? Well, I was thinking about it last night. I don't know how far I'll get. I probably won't get very far, but. But you keep that in mind because you never know when it will come back again. It all goes into that mental, general, I call my life.

We're going to keep you on memory because this has been a delightful hour. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Charles. Thank you, everybody. Hey, thank you. I don't know if I can get this far. Thank you. Thank you. When I need you, just close my eyes and I'm with you. And all of that I so want to give you, it's only a heartbeat away. When I need love, hold out my hands and I'll tell you. Thank you.

Thank you. What does he think about Charlie Chaplin? Indeed, what does he think about E.T.? Of course, what does he think about music? Where it's been, where it's going. His own music and the

music of others, his influences. And those who influenced him, I'm talking about Leo Sayer, the singer, composer, I hope you'll join us. Thank you.