Legendry; Interview with Former Vermont Governor Tom Salmon on His Career, Part 2 of 2

Long with thanks. Good evening. This is Frank Anthony producer of legendary. With part two of my recent interview with former Vermont governor Tom salmon. This is Veterans Day. The ideal day to listen to a leader among men who came from the old traditional values of respect for earned authority and hard work. The values that veterans of our country and Vermont fought for and gave their lives for. It is to that spirit that we dedicate this program on Veterans Day 1978. Welcome to legendary Tom salmon and I'd like to remind our

listeners out there who didn't hear our last program that you spoke quite in definitive detail about your background and I wonder if maybe you should just kind of hit the high spots of that if you could where you were born and about what year that was and so forth. I was born in at an early age in Cleveland Ohio. My folks were New Englanders. My dad a lifelong resident asked Use my mother a lifelong resident of kind of get they moved back here in the wake of the recession. I grew up in a small town Stowe and you know outside of Boston a very rural town went Hudson High School Boston College their law school had a graduate degree in law from New York University law school got married that year I made a conscious decision to get out of the city and come to the country. I came to Vermont to practice law. I was a judge at a

young age. A state legislator. Later. I expected Lee became governor of Vermont during a very interesting time in history for one hundred seventy three thousand nine hundred seventy six. Iran's second in a race for the United States Senate in 1976 and I'm currently a country lawyer practicing and living in Vermont. What year was it that you came to Vermont again. Thank hundred fifty eight fifty eight. And during your administration I think that one of the important things that happened was do you not act 250. And I wonder if you could just briefly give us an idea of where act 250 actually originated whether it had something to do with previous administration or how it came about at 2:50 was Vermont's response to the disturbing signs of growth at any cost within our state in the mid late 60s early

70s the land boom the price of land shooting up astronomically. The concern broad scale concern over recreational and second home growth with no controls or underpinnings that the state had an interest in. Specifically the father of act 250 is probably generally regarded as a former Governor Dean C. Davis appointed a task force who identified the problem clearly. The legislation which was enacted 1070 had strong bipartisan support. It has proved in my judgment to be a thoroughly useful tool in Vermont's initiative and successful effort in controlling growth at any cost. The program very briefly involves a set of 10 criteria administered by local people who serve on regional district environmental commissions. They make

important judgments as to whether or not a larger projects be they industrial commercial residential or whatever can go forward without. Overly and adversely affecting our water supply. Sewage problems traffic considerations and will not unduly impact upon educational and other services that might be available to these large growth decisions. Well I've heard that act 250 makes it difficult for people to sell land in this state after they've bought a piece of land even if it's you know five 10 acres it makes it hard for them to sell or land is this true. No not really. I think the statistics will indicate that approximately 95 percent of the applications that have been made under the Act 250 process have eventually been been approved. What the bill does is this what the law does. It weeds out the bad development it

eliminates the notion that a developer on a with a shoehorn can come up to Vermont and break up a large tract of land into a quarter acre lots and sell them off willy nilly without very considerable planning and a great deal of thought being given to the subject not only by people in state government but people regionally and in the local communities. Well then if I for instance own let's say I own six acres of land and I want to sell that piece of land to someone I only owned it for say three years or a year I don't have any difficulty selling that land. No. The difficulty may come when the purchase of that land decides he might want to you know stablish a commercial or intensive residential project or an industrial project on the land then he must obtain an act 250 approval which means that he does one.

Which means that he files an application and sets forth what he intends to do and provides engineering data that indicates that the soil is capacity has the capacity of handling the growth that he has in mind that he meets the other criteria in the law. It's quite a good deal different from other states and it's a yes from mine. A course is a pioneer in many many respects and. Our Premier environmental standing in the world is well recognized throughout this country. Well at this point is there anything that you think. You would do to improve back 250 or change it. Yes I would constantly try to monitor the quality of the people who are administering the programs. If they are good people if they're sensitive people if they're flexible people if they're practical people if they are people who understand that

investors whether it's in a housing project or an industry or a commercial establishment want their government at all levels to be responsive to their requests. If we can make the act 250 bureaucracy more responsive quicker in their action with less red tape but that's a constant quest of government to attempt to do this. And how do you think it's working out now do you think it's going along all right. I think it's working out reasonably well. That isn't to say that there aren't some problems with it. There are problems with the standards are very high and where those standards can't be met it's very difficult to get them waived or get projects exempted from them. But most of the criticism I hear here is from the administration of the act and it ministration is handled by

administrators and administrators are people and some people are better than other people in dealing with the human element in any bureaucratic process which is oftentimes emotional and difficult to manage. So the program in some frankly we'll be in is just about as good as the people who administer it. And if we appoint good people to administer it and we insist on their being sensitive to the public's needs the program will be a success to the extent that we acquiesce in attitudes which are offensive to the public. Many segments of the pup public will be in the program as objectionable. So then you probably foresee a long happy life or at 250 at this point. Wild horses could not remove back 250 from the Vermont scene. It's very interesting what might have been some of your other more

significant accomplishments during your administration as governor. I think the most significant accomplishment as governor was to fulfill the very simple promise that I ran for governor on namely to significantly reform the local property tax and return tax dollars to those who needed it most. Some five years before Proposition 13 became a national household word. We took our general revenue sharing money that came to the state it's in 1973 and allocated it entirely to relieve the burden of local property taxes by setting up a circuit breaker rebate system based on an income test that was designed to alleviate the burdens of the real burdens of the local property

tax had on middle income middle lower income and fixed income people. And the program has been a dramatic success it's helped a number of them Honest to hold on to their homes in a period of inflation and escalating property taxes. We help pay for this program in part by capital gains tax on raw land which was another aspect of my program as a candidate for governor 972 designed to slow down the land boom that was crisscrossing the state at that time. I think the fact that the program I ran for governor on became almost the single focus of my candidacy. And that was the linchpin of whether or not my administration would have any success at all was and acted almost identically

to the manner we propose it has to be considered as the major accomplishment of my administration. It effects presently about a hundred thousand Vermonters who is the most outstanding person you knew in government. As you look back what's a tough question. I would say I'd answer that in two parts. In the state of Vermont I'd say the most outstanding person I've met in government. Is a man named Robert M. Wilson who was secretary administration during my four years as governor and before that the commissioner of development in from Montana and before that a state senator and before that in the private sector. And I've omitted a number of very important names in naming Bob Wilson. Bob Wilson was a student of

government a student of administration. He is the living personification of the very best that anyone could bring into a public administration. He was unselfish in his loyalty and dedication. We were in office during the recession when the money stopped coming in. He was frequently at his desk at 4:30 5:00 a.m. in the morning frequently still had his desk at 10:00 and 11:00 at night. I never complained performed. One of the most thankless of all jobs as premier economic advisor to me during a turbulent era. You know I'm on to history the most difficult since the Great Recession. And his strength his capacity to offer sound counsel and to manage the difficult agency of administration

to make him in my view the most important person I've met politically nationally. I would say the most oppressive public person I've met in this country is Senator Alan Cranston of California. Who is a truly remarkable man. Number one he is bright and competent and hardworking has all of those qualities. Number two his idealogue what he stands for is very compatible with the philosophy that I developed during my years in public life. And number three he's a man of absolute unfettered integrity. There's probably not a more respected public figure in the United States of America today than Alan Cranston.

You could bet your life savings on Alan Cranston's word. He is unshakable in his devotion to those persons and to those causes that he voluntarily aligns himself with. If there is a superstar in American public life today it is the senior senator from California a man that I became approached you know during my years in public life. Well Tom we could talk all day about many of the things you've done you've done many things in government for the state of Vermont. But in the back of my mind I'm asking myself if you might remember what some of your limitations were while you were governor. My limitations was I there were many. I was human. I made mistakes. Probably as many mistakes as

anyone may have made at that time. I was in government a time when the money ran out and the hopes and aspirations of many special interests many constituencies simply could not be fulfilled. And. My decision in 1975 to go to my people people of this state and ask in the height of a terrible recession that they dig down deeper and pay more taxes so that our government could. Balance its books and stay in the black was the toughest political decision that I have a made. As it turned out it was probably the decision that. Resulted in my defeat for the United States Senate. A year later in retrospect I have no regrets because I made the decision based on the best

information available to me at that time. And you mentioned that you learned a good deal about 2:50 from Dean Davis I wonder was there something else that you might have learned from following Dean Davis as governor. I learned a lot from Governor Davis. I think the most important lesson I learned from him is that a leopard can indeed change of spots. If you. If someone were to suggest that Dean Davis candidate for governor would make the decision he made in terms of act 250 as a traditional conservative high ranking Republican who whose views were very trackable on virtually all issues during his long period.

Of service to the state into the private sector in varying capacities. One would not have judged him to make these decisions. Dean Davis in many respects it was for us to forsake a number of deep seated. Ideological notions as respects the relationship of government to the private sector to enunciate his whole hearted support for the ACT 250 concept. He was a man of sufficient vision to see the phenomenon that was sweeping the state. To see that it was a phenomena of nonpartisan character to see that this was an idea whose time had come and put his shoulder to the wheel to enhance these objectives whatever a political detriment this effort might cost him. And for that he deserves. In my

view and Norma's credit from all of the people of Vermont. What are you doing know as a private citizen for Vermont. Well I'm a country lawyer and that pays the bills and keeps my two all those daughters in college. I have ride of other interests I've selectively chosen to join the boards of directors of a few major companies in the state. I know the president has submitted my name as a prospect of future member of the United States Railway Association which is the subject of some interest to me. If it should come to pass I am working on a. A project in Boston. Dealing with the economic well-being of the

northeastern section of these United States. I still write from time to time. Occasionally I'm asked to make a speech on a subject that I have some knowledge in relationship to I'm a trustee of historic Windsor That's should be one of the highlights of my. Activity. I did some consulting work last year for the National Science Foundation. I'm on the board of trustees of the New England College of Optometry. Now this field of interest to me. I have a number of outside interests. And of course I'm one of a month's premier sports fans and that is an avocation that it takes up a great deal of my time. Well if you are elected to the United States Railway Association I guess that's only expressed it. Does that appointment

assume a commissioned status commission responsibility. Yes that's a national policy making board that was created by the real Reorganization Act of 1973 which oversees the troubled railroads of this country. And if my appointment were processed. I'd be required to go to Washington a day a month to attend the the monthly meetings and play what role I could in the formulation of national transportation rail policy. Tom who are the who are the key women you're the ministration of. The commissioner of personnel was a woman named Jackal and a very competent capable woman. Another woman who played a very important role in my

administration heading up to major task forces was there Rosalind Oakes. Who headed up the food commission that proved so productive in its efforts and had another important commission that began to identify for the first time a talent bank of available women for appointment to the state government positions at all levels. And there are many more of those who readily come to mind. Is Vermont a state that welcomes the idea of women in governmental positions. I think there is no question about that. I think from OTT recognizes that you know contains a certain message you know as I always interpreted that message. Qualified women should be given absolute equal consideration with qualified men and the most qualified person

should prevail whenever a job was available in Vermont is there really much value these days for an independent voter. I would certainly say so. I think Vermont is a state of independent voters and even especially in recent years as you view national statistics and some of the polling that's been done here. The base of the Republican Democratic Party seems to be shrinking each year. The independent voter is the swing voter who can govern the results of an election. I would never have been governor were not for the independent voter of Vermont. And most contemporary politicians can make that same statement. How do you feel Tom that Governor Snelling is doing his job.

Well he's hard working and conscientious and. And. And that's not mean and harsh senseis his style as you know dramatically different than I sense the style of my administration. He has been a prime beneficiary of good economic times and I sense in our own way we had something to do with that and I think using the machete during my years in office to cut down government programs and to keep state spending at rock bottom levels. He's a person that's very ensconced in in business and economics and he deals frequently with graphs and charts and that type of economic shop talk he's certainly a competent individual there's no question about that.

Is there something that you think you might do some area that you would work in a little harder if you were the governor. Well I'm I'm Although I'm relatively young. I have not. Majored in political criticism of the incumbent governor of the state. Except on issues where I have a very very strong feeling and Accordingly I'm not going to nit pick at Governor Snelling his performance as Best been judged in the recent election. Well I'm thinking more in the sense of areas of not just speculation but areas that you think need improvement I think it's important to talk about things like that. Well I think that government can be improved or formed essentially through the people who are appointed to head up the major

departments and agencies throughout the structure. And I know Governor Snelling and I have apparent major differences in our perception of how that process should go forward. I believe very strongly that good people within discreet areas of responsibility should essentially govern their own agency or department should make fundamentally the hiring firing and the specific policy decisions within that. Agency with a veto only reserved to the governor. I. In a word was content with leading the band or leading the parade by Governor Snelling I sense from his public utterances and my following of his stewardship but rather insists upon being somewhat ubiquitous and heading up every division in the band. He likes to have everyone report in clear with him before

anything is said of any decisions made. I think that's a very difficult tendency for miners to accept. I think the miners. Want to feel that their government at all levels is sufficiently open so that good people can make up their own mind without clearing with anyone else. Tom thank you for being a guest of Vermont Public Radio's legendary and I hope we can see more of you sometime in the future. Thank you Frank. Next Saturday November the 18th. A special live program as part of the Vermont Public Radio fund raising marathon. Then on November the twenty

fifth former Governor Dean Davis joins us for a special treat on legendary Saturday at 7:00 p.m. Thank you and good evening.