VPR Forum; Documentary on Christianity in Vermont, with focus on Charismatic Movement, Part 1 of 2

My little voices you have just heard are of people participating at a prayer meeting in the Northeast Kingdom today Vermont Public Radio forum looks at the role of religion in changing Lamond from the point of view of a small town minister a lay Evangelist a church official and a sociologist historian Stuart Gage is sitting in with the co-host John Major was on vacation. As one drives through with the Vermont countryside church steeples I one of the most visible features of the landscape

a phenomenon explained by the fact that historically the church has played a central role in community life in Vermont especially in small towns. The Forum wanted to find out whether this is still true. So co-host Kates the Iceni drove up to the Northeast Kingdom which still retains much of a monster additional rural past. She talked with the Reverend Diane Pearce the minister for the lake parish region which includes the towns of baton Glover and West Moore. It's a very practical kind of religion I think you'll find people are interested in up here whereas in the city charges and in this may not be fair to say I'm sure there must be city churches where or where the same kind of thing goes on but in the ones that I was there have been related to the emphasis has been much more on sort of the theoretical and of religion I mean the intellectual or or.

Philanthropic side of religion a lot of people say to me that you don't find religion any stronger than around Barton. Do you think that's always been the case. I really don't know I wondered about that myself because of course I've only been here a little over two years and it's been that way since I've been here. But I gather from talking to some of the older people that that it hasn't always been this way. And in fact it may have begun somewhere around five eight maybe even 10 years ago with the pastor of the team that was here before me they had one of the ministers who was was here then was named Paul Quackenbush and he was the minister here at the time that began had his religious conversion experience and began traveling around as a lay evangelist.

And they got together and founded this weekly prayer meeting prayer group that is still quite active and that was the foundation of Ralph's group. And I would say more than anything else it's been Ralph Waldo and his group that has sort of sparked the interest in spiritual things here and that it is really just been within the past I would say five to eight years probably. Is that increased interest in spiritual things totally directed towards the church. It began you see outside the churches really. If I'm if I picked it up accurately I gather that it was as part of this prayer group that Paul Quackenbush and Ralph Norris started that started the whole thing or at least really got it moving and you see that was number one an interdenominational group and it was a group that met in people's homes or in the memorial building or somewhere outside of churches. And in fact had some difficulty I

gather being accepted within the churches. Our plan seems to be a few

miles from the way. Please love me somebody got something to share. You got something like this here. Here we go with that you need to know

why the right thing. Oh you know you you know you just briefly whatever go you just proved your song I want to sing. I put up or shut up. We'll do it. Oh look here. OK we don't stand for the magazine this Sunday with me and so he said get this little boy out and I'll have a local book with it from a frat boy in the car that has a

lot worse and I thought oh no I really like him and we want to hear a lot more of you and know that you are thought to weigh in on you and now you know given software that only we have received so far because my theory and way. But what brought this whole work about was that four weeks after we had gone up to this place I was driving home the fourth night and as I was driving home God simply spoke to me and I know you know a lot of people think people are crazy when they talk about God talking to him. God spoke to me. That's all there was to it. And I didn't even realize at first you know it was him either. But he spoke very clearly a beautiful masculine voice I heard it. My wife was sitting on site I mean she didn't hear it but I did. And it says you know I want you to stop a meeting like that in your home.

And that was Allah and I looked at my wife and I knew the voice didn't come from her. I looked in the backseat I thought maybe somebody crawled in a car while I was parked and nobody was there. And I thought well my imagination and I drove along a little bit further. Five minutes or so and again it come just as clear as a first time it says. I want you to start a meeting like that in your home. Remember the commitment you made in my mind just flashback and in my mind I sock clearly seven years before when I was knelt down in that church that's the one right now they're behind you. And as we were as I was nearing there when I says Lord I'll do whatever you ask if you'll straighten out my life and give me purpose and direction. I'll do whatever you ask and I meant it because my life was at the lowest point I ever was and the law just reminded me of that. Then he says remember what you what you said. And he says I've done my part. You asked me to heal your marriage and straighten out your life and he says I've done that. He says now I

want to do your part. And boy my stomach you know my heart just fell right into the bottom my feet. And I you know I was just dumbstruck and I and I I realized God was speaking to me then and I simply says God I can do it. And he says I know you can. But he says I can't you just do what I tell you. That's all you need to do. And I says Well OK Lord. So for the five past nine years the Holy Spirit is simply directing me from one person to another person you know from one meeting to another person from one home to another home whatever. You know I just listened and I learned to be obedient to his directions he would tell me what to say you don't want to do. You know I found it very easy to do what God wanted me to do. At times it was difficult because it was a path that I wasn't used to. I didn't know the Bible. But then all of a sudden I got a hunger for the Bible in a matter of about three months I read through the Bible from end to end and after that you know it would just just come that's

all. And then about three years ago. A caution the meetings had begun to get bigger and bigger after about a month or two months that we had meetings in my home. Then they got so many people coming that we couldn't get Amal in anymore so we had to split it up into two meetings each but they were being times that's all of us too and they were being changed. People were changing their lives are being transformed you know. And so then this went on and went on so after a while we had meetings every night of the week and various speaking engagements were opening up here and there and we began to work with the people in the nursing homes and all this type of thing. And then three years back the law I just spoke to me very clearly and told me to take down my sign that I was out of business. Out of my lexical business and that I was going to be going into this type of ministry full time. So that's what I am.

I mean it full time now and I simply still move the same as I did then I simply listen to The Spirit of God he tells me what to say he tells me what to do. And as a result people's lives have changed. Ralph Nalls formerly an electrical contractor is now a full time lay evangelist. He founded and is the president of New Life incorporated a nonprofit organization. What you just heard Ralph Hall describe is a phenomenon which is taking place nationwide and can be considered what is commonly known as the charismatic movement. This movement is composed of people who have had an intense religious experience in which the immediacy of God is made known to them. Later during the program Stewart Gates who is sitting in for co-host John Major will be exploring the roots of this movement historically and its application in modern day society. With other guests the forum continuing with a documentary of how the charismatic movement has changed people's lives in the Northeast Kingdom. What do you think it was that was able to touch

people that hadn't touched them in the traditional in their traditional ways of worship through the church I believe. I guess I'd have to use a scripture from for this one insensed says and Mark 16 around verse 16 that these signs will follow those who believe. You know they will speak in new tongues they will cast out demons in my name and they shall lay hands upon the sick and they shall be healed and all this and it goes on like this and it says The Lord went with them working it out with him with signs and wonders. And when I come to that part of the Bible I says Well that's funny lot I don't see this going on. I don't see this happening in the churches. Where is this Paul that you're talking about. You know where is this power to transform lives. Where is this power to deliver people from demonic spirits.

Where is this power to heal the sick and all where is it I. And I says I see a lot of people professing to be Christians but yet I don't see these type of things happening and not the Holy Spirit just spoke to me very clearly and he says because nobody has faith enough to act upon it. Nobody believes enough anymore to act upon that because action is involved with faith you see. How do you think you could make people believe in a way that they're being involved in a church service could not because I believe. Are you suggesting that the people who led those church services whether they were ministers or priests didn't believe. OK I'm not saying that they didn't believe in Christ. You see don't get me wrong I don't believe that I believe that most certainties people had were had a dedication they believed in God and believed in Christ. They don't necessarily believe in the power. I believe that I'm clothed with power. I believe that such all it's a part of my life.

I believe that I'm filled with power because I'm filled with the Holy Spirit I'm filled with Christ. It is not mine. It's the power of God but he has chosen to clothe me and he has chosen to fill me. It's not amazing if you look back and at all the great revivals and everything else you saw men that were clothed with power and filled with power. That's all there is to it there's nothing extraordinary about it. But it there's many people around today in various parts of the world that are clothed with the power of God and filled with the power of God and they know it. And so as a result of knowing it they use it to say. I know and I believe it. And this is what I profess and this is what I tell people and they hear it and they begin to believe themselves and in the believing. This is where faith is involved in every believing that the clothes of power are filled with power. It becomes a reality to them. You see their lives become filled with power also. It's real you know it's it sounds.

I don't know it's it's just it's just so so real. Well we used to go to church and think we don't I. I do t by going once a week and now it's you know it's just part of our life it's you know the Lord is right with us all the time is not just in the church on Sunday. And you know it really opened our we have a whole new outlook on Christianity to me is the power of God working through human lives like yours and mine and transforming us into new creations in the likeness of Christ himself. I come back to the same question why hasn't that happened in the church. All right I guess I'd have to go back again to a scripture. And this is in the Book of Revelations. And it says. The spirit a lot is speaking you know to John and he was saying you know I stand at the door and knock.

I stand and he was speaking the spirit a lot as speaking to a church and he was saying I stand at the door and knock and whosoever will open the door I will come in. And he was speaking to a church then. And I believe that he's still speaking to the church today because it's so easy after a matter of years that we become ritualistic traditional where we we become so programmed. There is no room for the Holy Spirit to move in ministering along AC. We have to give the Holy Spirit freedom to move and Minister if we want the Holy Spirit to move in Minister. And if we don't allow that freedom I could go. We have meetings almost every day of the week and I guess maybe I can't but I was going to say I could set out to make up a set program while we're going to do this we're going to sing these songs. This person is going to read this scripture and that person is going to read this scripture and you're going to do this and you're going to do this and I'm going to do this. But what's God going to do when you first got started were people skeptical

about when it was you were doing in and the method by which you were teaching. Oh yes most certainly so because it was different it was different because the. They were used to a minister or priest or somebody like this you know doing all the teaching and doing all the speaking and giving all the direction and all of a sudden here I'm just a lay person that didn't have much of any religious background. And I don't profess to be a very religious person in NO in a worldly way of talking about religion. I'm not much of one for ritual now this type of stuff I've got nothing against it but I'm not much one for it either. Ha beat you to a little. Well he emphasizes the work of the Holy Spirit he emphasizes the

army helps people develop the kinds of feelings that make worship of any kind meaningful I mean worship is not just sitting down with a bulletin and you know doing they call the worshipping him up and following along a set pattern. You can't go to church on Sunday morning and just do the service and get anything out of it. You have to go to the service with your heart prepared. You have to go seeking something. You have to go with the expectation that you're going to get something out of the service or else you might as well stay home. Well what I see Ralph doing is emphasizing by that by the spontaneity and the joyfulness and they are the hopefulness of his kind of services. He's helping people to develop the kind of feelings that that you need for any

kind of worship and then those people you see come to service on Sunday morning and they expect our services to be like his services. And of course they are I mean the thing of it is he's. It's kind of hard to to try to get out. He can do in his saddle what I would like to do in the organized church but some times have been prevented from doing within the walk a nice church because of people's expectations of what ought to go on there. Based on what went on there 20 or 30 years ago you say that it was Reverend Diane Pearce minister for the lake parish region which includes the towns of Barton Glover and West Moore located in the Northeast Kingdom. Before that Ralph malt lay evangelist. You also heard from people rejoicing at a prayer meeting in Newport Vermont and from a born again Christian.

You're listening to Vermont Public Radio forum and to the first program and a two part series on the role of religion in changing the mind. Charismatic movements of the type just described are surfacing all over the state and have attracted the attention and interest of church officials. Stewart Gates who is sitting in for co-host John Major talked with the Reverend John nutting associate minister of the Vermont conference of the United Congregational Church. Through his mission work Rev. knotting is in contact with churches statewide. MR. We hear a lot today about the charismatic movement. Before we go any further do you think that the term Charismatic Movement adequately

describes what we see going on in Vermont. I think we need to be careful in the use of that term. What I would like to do is think of a whole even Jellicoe movement that is going on not only in Vermont but across the country and probably around the world. And this evangelical movement has various experiences connected with it. Generally people are deeply committed to the Bible have a profound personal experience. And I think coming to a new sense of self worth and self dignity as they become related more directly to God himself. Now when we talk about the charismatic movement that is a specialty I would say are a special part of the evangelical movement. Charismatic refers to the gift of grace or the specially the gift of tongues.

People having a profound and deeply moving experience that is expressed in their own lives through the utterance of strange and sometimes wonderful words that can be understood only by a very few or perhaps by no one so the Charismatics are part of the evangelical movement. But I believe by their own definition they would only be a relatively small part of the evangelical movement. Are we saying Are you saying that. Are you saying that for the charismatic people that God is speaking directly through them that they are a vehicle for. For divine intervention they would feel. I believe that God has spoken to them and put silence words upon their lips and in their mouths. And that's what the charismatic experience is all about. This may or may not be a rational kind of experience.

That is something that can be explained and we can say well God told me this. He may not be able to do that but it is involved with sounds and words and noises that come from God to these people. Now the Charismatic Movement is one part of a larger movement. What are some of the other elements within that movement and how would you describe them. Well some of the other elements in the movement are one a great desire for a public witness. Hence we have things like the Praise the Lord club the PTL Club TV God's Country radio station now for oh seven or eight years her punches and has had a program that I believe he volunteers to put on every Sunday night called new gospel sounds so that one of the dimensions of it is a desire to go public because. There is an intense conviction that the word

needs to get out that other people need to hear it and that other people need to become convinced that Jesus Christ is Lord and personal savior. So that's a very strong part of the movement. What is it about the charismatic people that makes them dissatisfied or apparently dissatisfied with the gradual approach to regeneration that we find in mainline churches. Well I think it's a question of almost anyone who has discovered something new and beautiful for their life. And then the question is how do you relate to those people that have not discovered it or who don't care about it or who may have discovered it at one time and said I've grown out of that. Especially because this is such of such high value to you. It's a new experience. It's the most important thing in your world. And therefore dealing with those who before them it is not that important becomes sometimes a real problem. It can become a problem within the church

when people. Begin wondering if other people who have come to church all their lives really understand really believe. And so there can be a kind of pulling back or maybe a pulling away. Well this place this congregation may not have enough life in it for me and so I'll need to seek that experience somewhere else. I can imagine a situation in which two people sat side by side in a pew for as much as ten years. One is attracted to the Charismatic Movement. The other is not. Would you care to hazard a guess as to why one person might be attracted to the Charismatic Movement and the other not. What would distinguish these two people. That's a real tough question and anything I can say about it is only pure speculation. I think generally that the person who is attracted is one who probably.

All through their life has been a fairly open person a fairly adventurous person one who has been willing to take some risks and so they perhaps are more available for this kind of experience. Then the other person who perhaps has life pretty well ordered and things are going along. And so we don't want to risk too much or they don't feel the need to risk too much life is OK as it is. So it could also be that a person who experiences some deep trouble in their life and therefore you know has a very dramatic need for feeling accepted or feeling relieved of guilt or some kind of experience of wholeness or or health or acceptance that they would be attracted to. I would and I wouldn't want to say only to the charismatic experience but also to the to the broader evangelical movement

in our new life movement that we've talked about taking a step back is genetic. Would you care to characterize what you think most people find in the New Life evangelical movement. OK. I think the fundamental. The most basic thing that is found is personal direct experience with God. And this usually comes about through worship of some sort through a traumatic experience that can almost be identified as to time and place. So it's that very very profound and oftentimes disturbing moving kind of experience of God that is the most basic thing that people find in it. Now I think other there are other derivative sorts of things that come to one that I've noticed in people is a sense of power

not domineering power but yet people seem to know who they are they know what they want and they're willing to speak they're willing to express themselves assert themselves. And they're very positive about making their points of view you know. And this often occurs in folk who I think come from families that haven't been used to doing that. And in one church where I know this is precisely the case some new people who have come into the church are now making motions at the meetings and even suggesting. New candidates for church office and they're using the democratic process but they've been empowered to do that and they're doing it in a good spirit. But it's kind of bewildering to other people who haven't who haven't had any challenge or any other nominations for officers for years. So I think another

dimension that comes in this is new friends and a new relation because you two people. And so the word brother and sister takes on profound meaning in that these are people in the churches who have had the same experience who are part of this fellowship. And there's a willingness to share money good time lots of things back and forth. So there's a sharing which is an important dimension. So the. The initial experience is one of immediacy of God and often this translates then into a person being brought into a community of believers and having their life ordered through this community so that from the outside when a person who has not participated in one of these movements looks at the Charismatic Movement the New Life movement he sees this fellowship in

community. Do you think people are attracted to this movement because externally they see this sense of community this sense of Brother ship. I would hope so because I think when the Christian community is at its best its fellowship is kind of a contagious sort of thing. And when it's when the Christian community is not in good fellowship with itself then you wonder even though people do say they believe do sing the songs. Is is there much much power much new life right there with them now. From your experience with the church in Vermont has anything happened in the last couple of decades that would urge people to seek this sense of community this sense of fellowship. Is there something lacking or or something happened in the immediate past that might drive these people

towards a sense of community and fellowship. Well of course it's been great social upheaval in the 60s with the racial concerns with the with the war and also with the tremendous number of young people I think the demographics are probably as important as anything. You know just so many more people of a young age that were asserting themselves in the 60s that that's been a cause if you will for a lot of shifting and wondering on the part of other generations so that that's that could be part of it. And right now it would it would seem that in many instances anyway people are looking for more of a sense of order. And so one of the. Characteristics of the evangelical movement is

returning as it were to the Bible and people are using the bible reading it perhaps more literally but finding in it a direct guide for their life rather than simply a general sort of statement about what a person is supposed to believe that mainline churches also offer a way by which one can order his experiences and a sense of community that is to say during the service. There's a regular procedure that the people go through a set ordering of events. Aren't the charismatic people satisfied with the kind of order and community that they can find in the mainline churches. I think some are and some of that's just the way it is that some feel they can live with a group of people most of whom have not had this dramatic charismatic experience. Others feel you know that service just doesn't have the life that I want it.

It doesn't have the meaning of the power that I need to nurture my own soul and soul. I'll need to need to go elsewhere. One of things I found is that there are just great great varieties. You know what people like and what they don't like to be part of their worship. And there are many folk who don't want say private testimonial from their neighbor during morning worship. They just don't want that. You might have it somewhere else but not at this time. And then there are some who don't even want the children in the service because they make too much noise. The church is cool through that kind of discussion. Why wouldn't a particular parishioner say want somebody to give testimony to it as to account for their religious experience it seems like that be a very exciting thing to happen in the church why would somebody object to that. Many people feel that religion is very much a personal matter. And so when somebody goes private goes public

with their religious expression. Especially if it's in a personal nature. They feel that that person is bragging but it's a kind of arrogance a kind of showing off something that shouldn't be showing off. So I think that's another reason. Do people ever feel threatened by that I mean if someone's recounting their experience so I might have doubts about their own. Yes I'm sure that that is implicit in a lot of this too. Stuart when someone does stand up and testify it not only might appear as bragging it appears that my experience is better than yours or I'm thinking mine is better than yours and therefore there's something wrong with you if you have had this kind of experience and that can be very much very much tied to it that's part of a negative feeling toward this testifying. Generally speaking in Vermont have church has been

receptive to people who have come back from the New Life movement who have gone to charismatic events who have been turned on had a religious experience and they've been welcomed back into the church or they've been perceived as a threat to the church. I think it depends what churches we're talking about. But many of the times that they are perceived as somewhat of a threat or they are perceived as being a bit different. Now it doesn't happen only in relation to charismatic movements. I've heard people who say go away to a church camp or who people who go to even the annual meeting or something like the Vermont conference the United Church of Christ and they have a really good experience there they come back to church and well nobody really wants to hear their report and so they feel put down. And I guess one of the one of the real sad things here is the inability to often of us to be able to affirm other people's religious or church experiences when they are different from ours and just say well I'm really glad you had

that tell me a bit more about it. You know I wish there was more of that kind of. Oh seeking after what's happened to our brothers. Up until the 1950s Vermont did not have a widespread number of eventual Christians. I don't know why we didn't but we just didn't. Maybe it's because the population was essentially leaving and we weren't getting new people. Now with new folk coming in and they bring this sort of religious heritage religious experience along with them and they want to have a place where it can be expressed and they will have such a place and hence new churches are built when the old ones the ones who are already here cannot do that readily adapt to it. Then so long as these people stay in for mine.

Do you expect that this charismatic movement has much of a future here. Well I would think it does I would think that the churches are being build number of new churches around built by various denominations Christian and Missionary Alliance has won a number of Bible chapels that I would imagine that these churches will attract some people some will probably fail but others will will continue and they will be part of the religious landscape of Vermont in the future. John nutting associate minister of the Vermont conference of the United Congregational Church.

You have just heard Reverend John nutting discuss the Vermont charismatic movement. And before that first hand accounts of born again Christians. But what about the movement's historical roots and what are its social dynamics and future prospects. To answer these questions Stuart Gates spoke with Professor William Garrett sociologist of religion at St. Michael's College and a new skill Vermont church leaders are concerned about the charismatic movement. Most of them know historically well from from the time of Paul when he wrote to the church at Corinth telling them that if someone speaks in tongues there has to be an interpreter it's not a legitimate religious experience. You know from the time of Paul there has been an element of divisiveness in speaking in tongues and other extraordinary manifestations of the Spirit which we call the charismatic movement. And the reason is quite quite easy to understand and that is

persons who have this spirit even when they don't want to to connote to others that they are safe first class citizens in the kingdom of God and those who don't have the Spirit. But our church members are second class citizens that implication gets pulled in willy nilly so that the charismatic. Pro SAS tends to generate a kind of first and second class citizenship ranking of members and this can prove to be divisive. Also charismatics who follow the lead of the Spirit are quite frequently given to challenging the stablished authority even the authority of church leaders so that it has historically been a divisive movement. And I think churchmen are concerned that the new resurgence of the Charismatic Movement may unleash divisive forces within their own denominations within their own churches. And they of

course want to want to avoid that. On the other hand I think they are they are impressed they are open to the renewal of faith which the charismatic movement carries along with it so that there is a kind of studied ambivalence. They know its dangers they know its potentials and at the present time I think most of them are are working with their fingers crossed hoping that the bad possibilities don't appear and they won't have to deal with with divisive groups and that. The good benefits will accrue to the whole church in Vermont. This movement is tremendously complex and I think to attribute it to one single cause. Is probably going to be be misleading in the long run.

I think it's probably. A phenomenon which has multiple causes. Some of which we may not have even uncovered yet. There are several things which one can say however in the 1960s sociologists of religion theologians virtually all interpreters of the religious scene were proclaiming that we were entering a very secular era. That church attendance was going to go down contributions going to go down religion was going to lose meaning in American society. No sooner had that opinion been widely disseminated than suddenly you had the outbreak of all sorts of supernatural movements not only the charismatic movement not only the emergence of the Jesus freaks as they were called in those days. But you

also had the revival of witchcraft. Ah cultism astrology. In short some of the supernaturalism was outside the churches. And it seems to me that one could argue very convincingly that in part this was a reaction which asserted that supernaturalism was not dead and that we had prematurely buried the realm of the spirit and pronounced secularity the victor in the contest. From what you said about church and sect. It sounds like one would expect to find there's been a historical tension between these two that they're somewhat at odds. Has this been true in your knowledge of history of say American history. Yes and in some very profound senses that has been the case in the classic working out of this distinction between church and sect which was

based on the European experience. There was a quite pronounced tension between the sectarians and those in the in the national churches whether Protestant or Catholic. In the American experience some of the work done by for example they treat your neighbor and others from the church sect movement. I have analyzed the phenomenon and somewhat different but very curious sense neighbor argued for example in a book written in one thousand twenty nine. That the disinherited. That is to say that the lower class was not taken into the middle class churches. It was it was blocked from gaining access to religious ministry. As a consequence they developed very radical and. Small sacked church groups. What they did however was promote high

ethical standards among their members. As a consequence these small lower class sect groups encourage the kind of character in their membership which would allow those members to prosper. In short you know they didn't gamble they didn't drink they worked hard they followed the middle class ethic all the way and eventually became middle class as the membership became middle class so too did the sacked experience upward social mobility so that gradually it lost its radical ness. Its peculiar theology its peculiar attitude toward liturgy and music its opposition to a trained clergy as a result has several sex experience Stoppard social mobility. They merged into the major Middle Class denominations which meant that the disinherited no longer had a ministry anymore. So that new sects were formed to minister to those outcasts of society

and it opposed and I think on them and you had the process starting all over again. Well. In response to your question but some American sociologist of our years there is a kind of tension and continuity between church and sect. Now clearly many of the evangelicals today are not drawn from the lower classes. That is indeed one of the most extraordinary characteristics of the resurgence of speaking in tongues. Of evangelical piety is that it is now occurring within the upper middle classes within the established denominations where once it was pretty largely a phenomenon of the lower classes. That's interesting. So they were saying that the movement today is different from movements in the past and that it has a broad based appeal across the economic classes. Is there any sense of

why this should come to a head in the 1970's scientific explanations for phenomena of abounded for decades. Obviously it's why the immediacy why now. That's really pretty honest. Yes yes. One has to look very hard into one's crystal ball to come up with an answer to that question. But I'll try nonetheless. It seems to me that one of the things that occurred in the 60s is that people. Came hard against the conclusion that the scientific world. Is as shallow an empty place with out some sort of sense of transcendence. That empirical reality. This worldly

concerns simply weren't enough for human life that there had to be a meaning out there which was larger. Than me. Or. Larger than Young. My region my country which encompassed the whole of mankind and which gave value and meaning to all our existence. There is a great deal of multiplicity in the kinds of groups which are emerging out of the Charismatic Movement and these different kinds of groups are going to have different futures available to them I think. It used to be historically that such groups. Tended to be groups which withdrew if they engaged in politics they were very conservative politically they were reactionary

groups to some of the major currents in art in intellectual life. And the curious thing is that there are some conservative neo and evangelical groups today which you've argued that conservative theology does not necessarily entail conservative politics that conservative theology does not necessarily mean that you are out of touch with movements in art in the sciences in the other realms of of intellectual life or cultural life. So that is what this means is that we may have the formation of some new groups who combine elements who synthesize conservative theology with social awareness with social reform who bridge the

conservative liberal gap in a very extraordinary way. And it seems to me if if a number of these groups can accomplish that and do it across denominational lines then New Evangelicalism could become a very powerful force in American religious life. You know there are other groups that will no doubt go different directions and it's really difficult to know where all the the vast variety of groups are going to end up at this particular juncture in 1071. Sociologist Daniel Bell I assume that inherently risky role of profit and standing where he was 971 when he looked over the past and tried to base future projection predictions upon that he saw the next quarter since quarter century after 1971 as being a time when the churches crumbled and disappeared and were replaced by a

multiplicity of sex. In one respect he might be right the SEC's are as you describe and quite permanent durable institutions which makes them distinct from Sex in the past which as you say from Turk you can interpret you correctly were a sword into the mainline churches or became mainline churches. What about the second part of his prediction that the if the mainline churches would break up do you see any further evidence of this. The evidence is very mixed. My own hunch is that the mainline churches will not break up and that indeed we are likely to see instead of in spite of the the kind of. Halting start toward Church unions that say the consultation on Church Union are some or at the world a National Council of Churches have made in spite of all of the setbacks in these

areas. I think we're probably going to see the emergence of major organizations of denominations to speak for the churches particularly on issues of social consequence in an ear open. All the major institutions are heading toward large bureaucratic powerful but coordinated structures as in government as in business as in education. It seems to me that the church is if they are going to speak out on issues of social concern simply must have a large organization or retain large denominational structures in order to to make their message felt. So I think we're going to have large church organizations in some form in

Probably not too radically different from the kinds of of church forms which we have now received large denominations and then organizations of denominations into national councils of churches. I do not believe that these groups are going to wither away. There has historically been a kind of fluctuation in the attraction of Americans to join denominations or to withdraw from denominations. Indeed nationally one of the curious things about some of the Charismatic Movement is that they have been able to recruit more successfully than the church's members from the unchurched so that very frequently the charismatic groups bring persons from the unchurched into a religious community. This gives the

appearance that charismatic groups are growing very very rapidly and indeed they are. But what often isn't told and is an important part of the story is that carrot it's magic groups very frequently lose members as well sometimes as rapidly as they bring them in. And very frequently the members whom they lose go to established churches. My guess is there will be some decline in charismatic involvement that it will not be so much that people give up on the search for transcendence. It's that they simply select another form for that search and therefore I would expect the charismatic movement to decline in some of its popularity probably within the relatively near future. What we should look for however are the successor movements to the charismatic movement and those have not even been aborning yet and I think we have

no way of spotting what they could be. That was William Garrett sociologist of religion from St. Michael's College in when I was talking with Stuart Gates who was sitting in for co-host John Major. Stuart and Kate will be taking another look at the role of religion and changing of a model next week during the second and final program of this two part series. Today's program was engineered by Fred Wasser. From on public radio forum is produced by pasty ass books. I'm your announcer Paul Haggis. Yeah. Yeah. The.

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