Vermont Artists in Performance; Miscellaneous Commentary with The Raphael Trio

It is music all I do. I don't think so but I would say that it's certainly the most important single thing in my life. Music is that it's a very physical thing. It's an intellectual thing and it's a deeply emotional thing for that reason I find it all terribly satisfying. I can think of a number of different people that I've played with I like playing with anybody I would mention would be someone who an old friend may have gone to school with we get together we do something casual. It comes and it goes within a couple of days. And you still retain friendship but to be within a working group that stays together for more than a week never minding several years is something that's much rarer. A group is like a marriage in a way you really have to. Learn the other people's idiosyncrasies you you learn to live and breathe together really. This is what it's all about. You get onstage for a concert and sometimes things happen spontaneously of their own accord which

never could happen without the backlog of experiences and much time spent together. If there is such a thing as having a message in a profession one of them is that a concert is a great event. The magic that happens. The intensity of concentration the intensity of everything every factor that goes into making a great performance. This is something that is unique to concerts. It's something that seems apparent from the beginning and is still true as the three of us have not lost that feeling about each other which is really awfully nice. It makes it really worth doing because if you're with friends as well as with colleagues. Daniel Epstein Susan Salam and Charles Castleman the members of the RAF Yele trio artists in residence at the University of Vermont. In this two hour broadcast we'll hear the comments of the musicians concerning their residency in Burlington. Well learn the intricacies of playing piano trios and will become

acquainted with the trio through their experiences and their music. Each of the members of the Raphael trio have solo careers and all began playing their instruments before they were 10 years old. Daniel and Susan are graduates of Juilliard and Charles is a graduate of the Curtis Institute of Music since their New York Carnegie debut as winners of the Concert Artists Guild Award in 1975. The trio has become one of the most sought after ensembles on today's concert stage. They record for Nonesuch and sonar records and through a grant from the National Endowment for the arts have a 40 day residency in Burlington with outreach concerts seminars and lectures throughout the state. The residency is something special for the University of Vermont George Bishop lane series and for the entire cultural community of Vermont. The key issue in making this residency in the other residences you mention possible is of course Terry Demus in his block working.

It was if not invented in Vermont it's the most prominent one I can tell you my wife is the vice president terms of America which is trying to push chair music and to help share music throughout the country and Terry is absolutely the pioneer in this matter. The many people who have heard the Raphael trio in concert do not take the group for granted. In fact their residency has sparked new enthusiasm in the musical community. The trio has performed for high school students for college students and for the general public. They have conducted workshops for the Youth Orchestra of Vermont for high school students in piano cello and violin. The trio is now seven years old having traveled extensively together sharing some disappointments and many rave reviews. Being so involved together requires patience understanding and a feeling of unity. The trio explains how they formed their group Danny and Susan worked really well together. We did both attend Juilliard but we didn't know one another there.

Charlie had met Susan years previously at Meadow which is a it's like a summer camp for string players. And so they called me and then we all decided that it was really a really good idea. And he said oh sure that would be fun. And so Danny and I drove from New York down to Philadelphia to what can I say audition Charlie. We got together the three of us and. It's about our instruments. I mean my instrument. I didn't have to take care of Easley was there. There were sparks flying and it was the chemistry was working magnificently and we were all terribly excited that we enjoyed playing with one another that we enjoyed being with one another which is at least as much a part of being in a chamber group. And I think we knew from the first few moments that we played together that this was going to be a group many cherry music groups are formed because the people participating in it liked each other beforehand. Some are formed out of convenience in so many cases it doesn't. The relationship isn't a lasting one they're

all the stories of the Budapest quartet traveling in different trains. Of course the advantage of having a trio is that you always have to against what. Well not always sometimes it's unanimous but in a quartet you run into problems. So Dan and I drove off and said goodbye to Charlie will give you a call next week. Knowing that we had to still consult with one another before we made it final that Charlie was going to be our choice for the violinist of the group. We drove off and Danny said he plays beautifully but I wonder do you think he's crazy enough for us. And I said No problem. And I must say that one of the most wonderful things about the three of us working together is that we have such a great time together. Daniel Epstein Charles Castleman and Susan PS. talking about the formation of the Raphael trio. Trio music is an exciting and intense experience for the three musicians. We'll hear that intensity now in a

performance of the trio in D major opus 70 number one of Van Beethoven. Daniel Epstein piano Charles Castleman violin and Susan song cello the Raphael trio. I think that one of the difficulties with classical music is just that it's longer. I think that people have to develop concentration to listen for half an hour and to do that they have to have help. Performance magic or excitement or electricity or whatever you want to call it that of course doesn't happen every single performance. But it's it really is an intangible. And I think that certainly the greatest performers have it and there are a lot of good performers who have it some of the time. The Raphael trio Daniel Epstein piano Charles Castleman violin and Susan

som cello performing the trio in D Major the ghost trio Opus 70 number one of Ludwig van Beethoven. This performance was recorded in the Flint theatre in Burlington Vermont. While the trio was in residency in the state they have tried to initiate ways of expanding the audience for their music and for chamber music in Vermont. As they walk the streets of Burlington they catch the eyes of members of the community and as they walk they discuss what techniques they will use in building the audience for chamber music. It is kind of funny I know that whenever we're walking through Burlington which is where the residency is we do tend to be traveling together. And I see a lot of remember that the three of us were walking through the city yesterday and I saw a number of people turning around because I mean you know in any city even in New York City you see people walking in pairs. But to see a trio walking down the street isn't even that common in New York.

I think this kind of thing is the wave of the future in music in this country I think. We don't have in this country a real classical music tradition the way you have in Europe. Remember Susan telling me a story that she had played a cello recital in Germany at one point and one of the pieces of her program had been some Beethoven variations on an aria from based on an aria from Magic Flute. And as she played the tune of the aria she heard it was actually for a group of super senior citizens. She heard all these little voices kind of singing along in the background. They all knew the Magic Flute of course. And if you play in Italy. Everybody knows opera and you just don't really have that kind of grassroots cultural tradition in this country for chamber music or classical music that you do in Europe. I've played concerts in in Europe by members in a music festival in Italy. Going into hill towns where people had in their whole lives never heard classical music

before. And of course they were they came crowding into the town square to hear an open air concert because that was like going to a fair go for something really wonderful and exciting. But I think that if people hear something really well done really well done. Now with pretensions and not with. Star studded fame but to something that's sincerely and beautifully done they will respond to it. We really want to achieve is to take the core who are now involved in the lane series and involve other musical institutions in Vermont particularly Burlington but throughout from Ont. and expand it hopefully double that or triple it. And so we're willing to do and are trying to do and striving to do anything that can expand the base of people that are committed to going to concerts are committed of all kinds and specifically charities or concerts.

Obviously there is a core of chamber music lovers in Burlington as evidenced by the fact that there are enormous number of chamber music concerts that go on there every year. In addition to the other kinds of classical music concerts there's also the whole university community which we're going to be dealing with which includes the music department and the music students but the general liberal arts and sciences student body and faculty as well. Then of course there's also the. General population of Burlington some of whom of course also are music lovers but as you say a lot of the people who are going to be dealing with will have had no previous experience whatever to classical music. And I think one of the biggest barriers to get over in that regard is simply getting people to listen. I mean that it's that getting past that first experience and I think once you do that it just opens up a myriad of doors. And I think that in our experience

so often that very first experience that people have with chamber music or with classical music at all has been such a phenomenally overwhelming and eye opening. Or I should say your opening experience for them and very often leads them on to. To want to experience a lot more of it. In fact in our case we're also trying to develop a strong relationship with members of the community. We are reaching out to as many areas of the state as we can. It's true that our residency is at Burlington and we are at UVM and we're giving regular concerts at the Lane series in addition to that that we're traveling all over the state and trying to reach as many people in as many areas as possible. Music is one of the hardest arts to explain to a newcomer and it is one of the tasks of the Raphael trios residency to create a system of communication between the artist and the audience.

What if you had an encounter with a fellow that goes to a contra dance every Saturday night and the only experience he's had is hearing some jigs played on a fiddle or some real czar some contra dance music. How would you get the classical music to him. You can make him realise you want to take something out of his experience. His previous experience in time to this new experience in classical music. If for example were doing that I'm straight in a concert. Very possibly some of the tunes that are the basis for this I have straight out of the tunes that he knows from his country GICs I think that if we're doing that I think that's maybe the most obvious but what's a little less obvious is that so much of the romantic literature of the 19th century literature for the for the piano trio is involves nationalistic writing. If we're doing it for shock trio it's based on folk tunes it may not be the folk tunes that are contra dance ist knows but it's really very much the same kind of basis.

Let's listen for some of the folk tunes Charles Castleman mentioned in this performance of the Ives trio written in 1904. Daniel Epstein piano Charles Counselman violin and Susan some cello. I think you know I know from my own experience with as a teenager who liked popular music as did some and as everybody else my age did. When you have even a top 40 song and someone's singing at the first time you hear it. It is not the song that you're generally one doesn't develop a love for it. Even your average 15 year old. What happens is that it's played over and over again and it becomes familiar when one becomes one sees the things that one's loved one likes and it makes one's able to to be associated with it. And that is not really that different than classical music. The music itself if one knows the melodies if one knows the tunes if one knows how it's put together. It's

so much more interesting than if it just seems something foreign so much jibberish from a different you know different language. They can also be a personal connection which can be very nice if he's seen us around if we're somehow in his world as people. You'll have much more interest in coming to the concert and being sympathetic to what we're doing. I think a lot of the if you want to say the scenes of performance or commission in performance are really sins of omission. It's a question of not looking at the score thoroughly and not really thinking through what the composer had intended. You know all the indications that he's written the score the trio by Charles Ives performed by the Raphael trio at the Flint theatre in Burlington Vermont. Susan song cello Daniel Epstein piano and Charles Castleman violin.

The trio repertoire is an important part of chamber music. Each individual player must be able to produce their own sound and at the same time blend with the other two instruments. One thing that I think is good about chamber music is that most people who have taken a music appreciation course have heard symphonic music. They may have heard some opera they might have heard some ballet music. They might even have heard chamber music but probably a string quartet not piano trio. So I don't think that people necessarily will have the prejudices that they might have about other forms of music with chamber music. One of the exciting factus in trio playing is that each instrument speaks very much as an individual one listens to oneself at which time one is also of course producing the sound. That in itself is full time concentration

under most circumstances. In addition to that one is listening to two other instruments who have a lot to say but I think maybe it's more that we're just maybe we're selfish and away. I don't think any of the three of us would be in this profession. Except that we get something very special out of it. And. If we if we suddenly found that it was becoming something routine I think we'd get out of it. I don't think any of us has to be in this field I don't think anybody has to be in the field. Think if one want that one's going to be a musician for your profession there is. There are normal advantages to it. The advantage of being able to express yourself the advantage of creating at least for the moment in the concert a utopian world where people are paying attention to what you have to say. What we're saying by what we're doing is that we specifically want to be musicians not music as it is a means of achieving something we could do in any other profession. But it is rare and it's a wonderful experience and I think it's something that happens with us every time we play.

It even happens in rehearsals and that's a great pleasure. It's something that was wonderful to start with and has grown and grown and well. We've been together over seven years now and it's never boring. It's never tedious. But the other thing I would say is that there is not. A very extensive literature in the 20th century for piano trio. It is probably the most neglected format for 20th century composers among within chamber music. I'm not sure what the reasons for that are. I think it may have to do with the fact that the piano trio is so much associated with the 19th century you know with Brahms and Beethoven and Schubert Mendelssohn and so forth. And I think it may be in the way of a reaction against that that so many contemporary composers of note have not written piano trios Stravinsky Barto for coffee if just to name a few.

The trio has recorded the trio in F Minor by Anthony in divorce Jacques for Nonesuch and sonar records and we have heard some of that music during this program. But as a final performance we'll hear the trio Opus 78 number two of Antony in divorce shock the donkey performed by the Raphael trio Daniel Epstein piano Susan som cello and Charles Castleman violin. Then comes the magic of performance or what one might call the chemistry of our working together our relationship our. I suppose what some people would call charisma anything that we the bridge between the performer and the listener. There's a certain something that's communicate about each individual in the trio particular more I should I should mention

that more than in a string quartet the trio does underline the role of each individual instrument. But besides there are as there's an interlacing is a conversation that's going on among the members of the trio and I think very possibly you're able to make an audience feel in a kind of exciting way that they're eavesdropping on a rather private conversation of three rather interesting people. And that I think is what we're trying to do. I think that I think if we can create that effect I think we're very happy about it. The trio Opus 7 the number two event in divorce rock the dumb key performed by the Raphael trio at the Flint theatre in Burlington Vermont. Daniel Epstein piano Susan saw cello and Charles Castleman violin. After the 40 days have passed and the residency of the RAF trio is complete. What

lasting effect can the residents of Vermont expect Charles Castleman. I think the lasting effect is the whole key to this residency and we hope that many people will come they will hear the Raphael trio and win. And they will think my goodness that was fun. We really enjoyed it and next year if the Amadeus Quartet or someone comes to never mind Burlington perhaps to Rutland or to Brattleboro they'll travel five hours or six hours or whatever they have to do to hear that because they think well this may be the same experience that we enjoyed so much last year. We are reaching out to amateur musicians in the state. This is something that I think. Has as yet not been done in such an organized way here. We think that amongst music lovers amateur musicians are the most enthusiastic and I think that's really what we're trying to build because the musical music

business in this country is just that it's big business and I think it's important now to start to build these kinds of grassroots organizations that we're trying to do through the residency to build a real audience not an audience that responds only to PR hype but an audience that is knowledgeable about music that can make some decisions on its own based on artistic values. The most magical performances are the ones where people completely forget themselves. And in no way try to project that magic onto an audience. It does not happen on a recording. It does not happen on television it doesn't happen on the radio it happens in a concert in a concert situation. And I think only if people are able to hear music live and experience it live not through a tube of any sort can they really

understand to some extent what it is that so wonderful about this art. The raffia trio. Susan PS. cello Daniel Epstein piano and Charles Castleman violin in residence at the University of Vermont George Bishop lane series. Thanks go to the trio and to Terry Davis and Jody Thomas of the George Bishop Blaine series. Thanks go to Earth audio engineers Michael cooter and Jim swift technical assistance by Sam Sanders. This is Frank Kaufman hoping you enjoyed this program from the words and the music of the Raphael trio artist in residence at the University of Vermont. Touring as a soloist is certainly a different experience from touring as a trio but I'm not quite sure what what I can say first because I get so excited about all

those objects. I mean I really love what I'm doing. I love playing solo concerts I love playing with the trio chamber music is something I would never want to give up and I would never want to be without it. And I can only say the same goes for solo concerts. Did you start young did you begin playing when you were very young. No. As a matter of fact the late starter in the group. I didn't even know what a cello was for a long time. I started taking lessons at the age of 10. My mother's a professional musician She's a pianist. And my older sister knows quite a bit older than I am had been studying violin for some time my mother thought wouldn't it be nice to have the piano trio in the house. And there were four children in our family so she thought it was logical that I was the next. I was the second I would start on the cello. After that one sister played the flute and my brother played the clarinet. But

in any case one day. My father came home from a trip in Europe. He was a businessman who was often in Europe and said look at what we've brought you and unpacked a half sized cello and I saw that enormous thing in front of and never seen it before and started to cry and said oh now what am I supposed to do with it. Listen are you supposed to play it. And so although I had loved music since as long as I can remember. And when I was probably still an infant I don't remember it until I was about three years old. But my mother used to play us little tunes on the piano to put us to sleep and that was my favorite moment and the only reason that I would agree to go to sleep at night was because she would play Brahms the alibi or a little Schumann piece or something by Schubert in order to put us to sleep so the music was certainly something that I remember very well and loved and enjoyed a great deal but playing an instrument was something that hadn't even occurred to me except for playing the piano which

was strictly forbidden in our house because our mother was a pianist and didn't want to be having her children practicing the instrument that was hers. That she had to listen to all day anyway. That's understandable but it was in retrospect this time I don't think I had to. Understanding of water it. But in any case it was also never intended by my parents that I even vaguely consider music as a profession. They wanted me to enjoy it I thought this was the thing to do They were immigrants from Europe and that was a part of the culture there and the normal upbringing of any middle class child that everyone played an instrument and learned to love music and listen to concerts and I just got hooked. So by the time I was in high school and actually not until that time I was completely obsessed with music I would say I couldn't listen to I want to listen to other

things I was in also very involved with other areas of performance. I studied acting for quite a while as a young high school student. And I was in the youth orchestra in Chicago and was taking lessons and playing trios at home and by the end of my high school years I was really as they say bitten by the cobra and had to keep going back for my daily dose of music. So at that point I was determined that I wanted to study music and then I went. When I entered college was the first time that I really was full time in music. How about your impressions of Vermont. Have you been here before have you spent any time and I have been in Vermont before I have never spent as much time as we're going to be spending this season. It's beautiful. Well I think I enjoy it very much.

There's of course it's quite a switch from New York City which is also marvelous to be able to have that contrast to what happens on 57 Strader Island 98 and Broadway. To be able to come up to what for us is clean living I guess one sense and certainly a lot of fresh air wonderful people we have. I can I can on the set been to remount before I've enjoyed it before and I don't think I came with any prejudices one way or the other. I didn't. I expected to have a wonderful time in terms of what we were doing but I didn't really have any preconceived notions about what would happen with the people or with our living situation in Burlington or with the sorts of people we would be meeting. Over the time here and it has been one pleasant surprise after another. People have been fantastic.

They've been open and warm and open minded that perhaps was one thing that I didn't expect to this extent. For some reason probably New Yorkers after a while think that they're the center of things and that they have the big open minds and they're the liberals and so forth that people in Vermont have their have been willing to work with us on every aspect of this residency. They have had very open minds I think we've had some original ideas about projects for this residency. And in no case have we heard. Well that's never been done before. I don't know if we should do it or we've done that one before let's not try it. Those are the two possible blocs that one can come up against. In a nutshell. And here it's always been. Well that may be difficult but let's try it. Or I think we should definitely give this a try this sounds wonderful in every case people have been willing to think

about what we've said to rethink their own ideas. And to give some whatever we've suggested a full try. And that has really been wonderful for us it's encouraged us not only to think further but to undertake every event with our full energy. Well that's what's supposed to happen isn't really in the residence and you're supposed to develop some sort of relationship with either your audience or those students who are looking to you for some inspiration in a way. That's right. How about the plans work. What type of project are you talking about Heres something that deals in the instructional part of the music or the appreciation of it. I would say both first and foremost I think our idea is that we love what we're doing. We're very excited enthusiastic about music and about our music. That means about our relationship to

music and about what music can offer us and everybody else and I think that what we want to do is to infect as many people with that same feeling. I think that that's one of the one of the most healthy contributions we can make. We are trying of course to reach as many young people as possible at the university through the music school through other disciplines. Students who are not involved in music directly who are in some other academic field but have some slight relationship to music and perhaps could be interested further. Students who have never had an interest in classical music and who might somehow see that there is something special for them to be to be gleaned from concert attendance or from participation in some of our workshops and seminars. We are

also arranging for. Roundtable discussions and seminars with people who are already trained in other disciplines. Faculty members in the academic fields. We have made contact with them from our youth orchestra. We heard a concert of theirs recently were very impressed by the quality of the high school students and even some elementary school students. We have already arranged for members of the orchestra to be divided up into groups to play in chamber groups who will then play for us. We will coach them in for lack of a better word a master class setting. In other words we will give them some kind of chamber music coaching but these will be open to the public or at least certainly to all the other members of the orchestra at the time. We hope to do that regularly during the season. In addition to that each of us

is required by the nature of the trio repertoire to be a virtuoso. Therefore there is really a combination in piano trio literature of the best of solo playing and the best of chamber music playing. I think that playing in a group requires an enormous amount of listening. That sounds very simplistic but it really isn't. There's a question of blending of sounds. Naturally ensemble problems one has to fit things together properly so that you land on the right beat at the right time. And there are certainly many musical and interpretive considerations in terms of what we're all doing together. What one listens for is one's own

voice. The individual voices of the others and the composite as a group. Then one listens on different levels one listens for technical and mechanical considerations and then also for the interpretive question. Now once all of that has been worked out in rehearsal we still have to listen for all those things in performance. And I love to read particularly classics. I like to go to the movies once in a while if there's a good one around. I'm very interested in art. I like to go to art museums and galleries. I've said there are also other areas of music that interest me other than just the cello or chamber music. I like to go to the opera. I enjoy being

with my friends. How about skiing. Now you'll have to ask the pianist in the group about that is the skier. Sports like I really it's a loss for us as I love to swim and I love to walk although that I don't so pretty I don't well I don't I don't do any organized sport let's put it that way. The instruments really from Beethoven on are used completely solo mystically and they have absolutely equal and rather virtuosic roles in literature and I think that to all of us since we are soloists as well as chair players is one of the most appealing features of playing trios. And I think that the ultimate complement for a teacher is to make his

students really independent. I had local teachers when I was first began studying piano which was in Chicago suburb of Chicago where I grew up and my teachers there were were very good beginning teachers and I think instilled in me a great love for music and a sense of care and thoroughness in dealing with with music. I then came to study at Juilliard with Adele Marcus who was a very kind of intuitive emotional musician. And her approach to teaching is very much along those lines. I mean she goes right away to the US and talking about the spirit and the character in the feeling of a piece which of course is the most important thing. In my case music was always central to my life. I started playing at a very early

age I was five and I began lessons and I was actually improvising at the piano. Before that it was at that point that I decided that the performing of music and the piano really was to be my life. And I think by going to Juilliard it effectively cut off virtually all other options. But it requires a good deal of long term advance planning and that's really the only way to do it I mean we plan our rehearsals six months in advance down to the hour Believe it or not. I mean it's it sounds bizarre but very often we simply have to do that in order to make the time that we need to spend together and to do the other things that we need to do individually. To build a group it's a process of building and the process of building in many different areas. First of all of course it's

building artistically and personally and learning to play together which is one of the most important features of chamber music. It's not simply a question of three good players getting together who are competent who know their parts and saying OK let's let's play. It is a real mesh of personalities and somehow that aspect of it seemed to work very well from the beginning too. We've never had a problem working together. However I think that what has been important to us is to grow together as a group. And I don't think that any of us would be content to remain in the same place to be static as far as our interpretive feelings about music are concerned both individually and collectively. So as a group this residency will really really be something special since the first time that you think that you've had a residency at a university that's right this is the first time we've done anything like this together.

Piano Trio. Additionally has the quality of being a chamber music in the best sense that it involves this kind of attentive playing together and and listening to each other and the ability to regulate and relate your part to the other parts but at the same time the nature of the repertoire is such that it tends to be very solo is stick. So I think you get all the excitement and electricity of a solo concert in a trio concert but you would get from hearing a star soloist say. Well I'm interested in my family I would say that's my primary interest I have a daughter who is 10 and a wife Betsy who is a singer. She's a Prado

and I always try to spend as much time with them as I possibly can. I enjoy skiing for recreation which is one other nice thing about being in Vermont for me although I don't think I'll be doing too much skiing on residency time. I may stay on a little bit after some of the Residency periods. And I enjoy a doing things around New York going out to theater to concerts eating out all musicians love to eat out. That's that's one of our great pleasures. I like to cook. I think it may be easier in a rural environment than an urban one because people aren't jaded.

I think that that coming to hear the Raphael trio play a concert in Springfield may be an event. Hearing anybody play a recital in New York City is less of an event than one one has so many opportunities. I know what I mean I don't live in New York and I live in Rochester but I missed so many things. There are so many concerts I didn't go to when I was in New York. And I would say well because you're doing something else and that's just to a certain degree it's true. But there are also times that I was. So tired from from the from from the sheer day to day existence that it just didn't seem as attractive to me as it does now I'm in Rochester. You know when I think I think we go to more concerts there than we did in New York. Now that may be that I'm not a born New Yorker and that it's not exactly my style of living but I think that's something for that of everybody

that in a rural environment that was able to make more of each individual of didn't make it make it something that has really impact. Well it does have an impact. I think it really has an impact to residency. But at the same time what lasting effect can you expect from from the interaction you'll have with these people. People do that. That's not I mean I don't think that's pie in the sky at all. And of course when Raphael sure comes back they'll they'll try and hear us since they enjoyed us the first time also. But I think and maybe even more to the point that they will go and hear the Vermont symphony they will go hear faculty members that are playing in various places around the state. Perhaps that will be perhaps that's even more important. And then that will make them even more likely to go in to hear the next concert because they will enjoy that also they'll realize it doesn't have to be people imported that are going to make

music enjoyable to maybe the people that are imported may have insights that that the local people may not have. And different not necessarily better but different insights. But that the people who are in residence in the state that are teaching and playing and making music in every way have so much to give that it's well worth going tending learning growing from the experience of being with them also. And I think we can do that. Charlie how about the trio what. What's that feeling when you're performing trio works what is it is it is it different than playing solo and playing as a soloist with an orchestra. It is it's very different in that it's in that you feel you're part of a unit which is doing something

besides what the individual is doing.