PowerPoint; Blacks & Jews, Sierra Leone

Production and broadcast of PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is PowerPoint, an Information Age clearinghouse for issues affecting the African American community, the nation and the world, and now PowerPoints Kenneth Walker. The relationship between blacks and Jews goes back to the Old Testament days of the Israelites. For those who care to look, there's more to the relationship than the symbolism of Solomon and Sheba's romance. Blacks and Jews share many cultural and social roots and some believe ethnic ones as well. They crossed many bridges together, yet today in America as the world spends toward the first sunrise of the millennium, a dark cloud of silence and prejudice stands between blacks and Jews. On both sides of the silence, there are hurt feelings

and resentments. This time, on PowerPoint, in the spirit of Hanukkah, Ramadan, Christmas, and Kwanza, we ask how to solve the problems between blacks and Jews, helping us in that exploration to dynamic women. One black, one Jewish, Dr. Yvonne Scrugg's left which executive director of the black leadership forum in Karen Kalish, executive director of Operation Understanding. And you can join the discussion by calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. And PowerPoint's focus on the problems between blacks and Jews begins in a moment, but first, PowerPoint news with Verna Avery Brown. For PowerPoint news and information to empower the community, I'm Verna Avery

Brown. For the first time in 130 years, the House of Representatives voted to impeach the president. The two articles of impeachment will now be sent on to the Senate for trial. U .S. Supreme Court Chief Justice William Rinquist will likely preside over the proceedings, and the senators will sit as the jury. House Judiciary Chairman Henry Hyde will most likely act as lead prosecutor of the team of legal experts known as managers. The process could take anywhere from three to several months. Republicans are expected to pursue, and Democrats are likely to block, a measure allowing the Senate's usual business to take place along with the impeachment trial. Democrats say allowing business as usual would trivialize the process. Others fear a lengthy Senate trial could gridlock the government. In a one -on -one interview with PowerPoint news, the Reverend Jesse Jackson of the Rainbow Coalition says, House Republicans by insisting on an impeachment trial are refusing to obey the will of the American people. One would think that the consequences of

taking on the will of the American people are severe. This past November 3rd, we saw the people go against a conventional wisdom espoused by punishments and politicians, and they said, I economy is growing. There are some big issues out here. 1500 Americans are dying a day from cancer. Can we discuss that sometime? A coal miner dies every six hours a block long as these. Can we discuss that? Children in mud creek and straight creek and tucking. One of the schools built in 1932 asbestos and lead paint. Can we discuss those who have been left behind? I mean, there are other issues. Medicare, social security is now in some jeopardy. The nation's business are cry of our leadership. Republicans are stepping up calls for Clinton to resign. Yesterday, Representative Bob Livingston elected to be the next speaker of the House, quit his leadership post and will be leaving Congress altogether.

This after confirming three days ago that he himself had engaged in extramarital affairs. Democrats have told Hillary Clinton that the president must not resign, but must allow the process to continue in a constitutional way. Removal of President Clinton from office would require a two -thirds majority in the Senate. Most observers agree that's unlikely. In 1868, then President Andrew Johnson, the only other president to be impeached by the House, survived a Senate removal by one vote. Judge Leon Higgombatham passed away last Monday from a stroke. Dr. Andrea Sullivan was a close friend and colleague of the late Higgombatham, and she offers these thoughts about one of America's pre -imminent jurist. What irony. Yesterday, the members of the House of Representatives voted to impeach the president of the United States. It's ironic because the same hatred, spawned by the legacy of legalized oppression, that drove them to commit this act, is the same hatred that Judge A. Leon Higgombatham, so eloquently and articulately fought against and

documented throughout his career. Judge Higgombatham was large in every aspect of his being. As his student at the University of Pennsylvania in the 1970s, I was struck by his vast wealth of knowledge, his intense passion, and vociferous protests. I likened him to my other hero, Frederick Douglass. Just as Mr. Douglass cried out about his outrage regarding the hypocrisy of slavery in the face of the Declaration of Independence, and the subsequent 4th of July celebrations, as well as the Constitution, so the Judge taught that these instruments speak clearly to the blatant disregard for people of color. In his book, In the Matter of Color, Race in the American Legal Process, his brilliance was obvious as he guides us through the colonial period of slave laws and court cases relevant to slaves, brutality, and immorality. We cannot ignore this part of history and expect to have a reconciliation of ethnicities. We must see the connection and

continuation of the contemptuous law from slavery to today. The Judge taught me to use the energy I might have used to hate, to think critically. And so, as the members of the House of Representatives ignore the votes of the majority of all of the people of the United States, and proceeded with the politics of hatred against the President, and the mockery of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, it seems that I will not see the nation's lawmakers uphold the documents that would guide our morality and sense of justice. But thanks to Judge Leon Higgin -Batham, I am not surprised or bitter. I simply know there is much work to be done. We will continue. Rest in peace, Your Honor. Dr. Andrea Sullivan, author of a path to healing, a guide to wellness for body, mind, and soul, the lately on Higgin -Batham was her mentor at the University of Pennsylvania. Up next, join host Kenneth Walker and two dynamic women, one black, one Jewish, for friendly face -off on issues that continue to divide the black and Jewish communities. To join the discussion, call us at 1

-800 -989 -8255. For PowerPoint news and information to empower the community, I'm Verna Avery -Brown. Welcome back, I'm Kenneth Walker.

The relationship between African -Americans and Jews has seen better times, much better times. Much of the public dialogue is filled with mutual recriminations, part of the contemporary problem began in the 60s when Black sought to gain control over many of the institutions in their lives, both in national and local organizations. All of the people African -American sought to replace were white. Many of them were Jewish. The forced resignation of UN Ambassador Andrew Young over informal talks with the Palestinians took the controversy to a new level. Our focus this hour is to examine how this estrangement came to be and what some people are trying to do about it. As always, we invite the full participation of our listeners, you can join the dialogue by calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989

-8255. To help guide our exploration, we're joined by Ivan Scrugg's left -witch executive director of the Black Leadership Forum and Karen Kaelish, the founder and executive director of Operation Understanding DC, a non -profit organization that brings together Black and Jewish high school students to help them better understand one another's culture, experience, and aspirations. Welcome. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Hi. Dr. Scrugg's left -witch, let's start with you. How did we get to this point? Give us some sense of the history, the contemporary history, if you will, of this issue. Well, I want to begin by saying I don't know how we got to this point, but certainly the road which has been traveled has been a very turbulent one in many different ways, and I was thinking about that when I was thinking about coming here, that early

on the thing I think that most United Blacks and Jews was the sense of shared persecution, that Black saw Jews as having many of the same kinds of unreasonable, subjective responses to them, visited on them, prejudices, biases, exclusion, that Blacks experienced, and so the relationship I think grew out of a mutual sense of understanding, maybe not understanding, but a mutual sense of understanding of the trials and the difficulties of being an excluded class and excluded race. And that took us for a long time through relationships, particularly in the Rust Belt and the United States and the Rust Belt, where African Americans were migrating north, particularly after the war, and or during the war, and

where Jews were in the merchant class, who were owners of stores and other kinds of establishments that interfaced with the Black community, and even into the civil rights movement, where the primary supporters of civil rights and of equity and sharing the journey in many respects were Jews. The union, the union contact, the union tangent, strengthen the Black Jewish relationship because of here again the similar histories and traditions, and then in the middle of the civil rights movement, as I recall, the fabric of this relationship began to rend. The Black power movement was emerging among younger civil rights activists who felt the older

heads were too conciliatory in this business about nonviolent social change was not the way to go, and at the same time, the Stokely Carmichael at that time, who has just passed, really was encouraging long, young African American activists to take charge of their own destiny and take charge of their own organizations, and of course, the question that arose, take charge from whom? Well, from the people who were most intimately involved, the fellow travelers, the fellow journeyers, and those were by and large Jews, and I think that probably whatever other underlying currents there were, I think that breach at that time in the sort of tail end of the first wave of the civil rights movement, pressaged much that we are seeing today

in among some with regard to Black Jewish relations. That's from the perspective of the African Americans, of course. Now, to what extent did divergence of interests perhaps contribute to this, that is to say that the passage of the civil rights laws, which both African Americans and Jewish Americans required in order to confront this discrimination and legal apartheid that existed in the United States, then once it was passed, it seems to me, Jewish Americans had achieved legally what they needed to achieve from the civil rights movement, so did there become a divergence of interest that may be contributed to this? I don't think so. I think the greater divergence of interest has been more recent than that. I think that the civil rights movement, while it was the legal reversal of all kinds of practice discrimination,

I think that by and large, the major beneficiaries of the civil rights law were African Americans because it was about race and not religion, although religion was included, and the most obvious tensions and assaults had been by whites on blacks, not necessarily on Jews anymore, any less than had been before the civil rights law. I think that the arguments about affirmative action and about school busing may have been the two most dynamic examples of divergence of interest, school busing and the whole issue of community schools and the fights and bad style about the creation of community school boards really reflected some

very strong tensions between the black community and the Jewish community, not because of anything that had to do with the Jewish religion, had to do with who the teachers were and what the challenges were from the black community to the school system and who was seen as being the symbolic representative of the educational system. So that was one, and the other was affirmative action, where Jews who had been exposed to quotas and those kinds of measures of merit for so long began to move away from affirmative action as an effective tool for their integration in America. Karen Kaywich from your perspective. Well let me add just some more to the history that Ivan has done so well from a slightly different perspective. So many Jews came over to this country from Russia, from Eastern Europe in 1880 to 1910, those were the 30 -year

period where so many came, and as you know for thousands of years Jews have been persecuted no matter where they've ever lived, there's no hundred -year period that they have not been persecuted in our five thousand years of history. So they come to this country and they see this group of people, these black people who are being treated, the way they've been treated, and they couldn't imagine such a thing. So in some instances there were links made, there were relationships began, in fact that began the NNWACP in 1909 and the Urban League in 1910 were largely African -Americans and Jews at the time. The Spin -Garn brothers were the first two presidents of the NNWACP in 1909 and 1910 in the early period. There was a relationship between Booker T. Washington and Julius Rosenwald. Julius Rosenwald bought a little store from Mr. Sears and Mr. Robuck and made that store the huge store that it became. But Booker T. Washington and Julius Rosenwald were responsible

for building over 8 ,000 schools for black people in the South throughout the teens and 20s and had a coalition with them. So there were times where they're all Jews and all blacks, no of course not, you can never say all of anything, but there were relationships built during this time because of this shared persecution that Dr. Skrug's left which talked about. There are times through the 30s, the 40s. We know of African -American troops being where concentration camps were and letting people go from there. So then that leads up to really the civil rights movement. Part of being Jewish has a lot to do with justice. Justice shows up over and over again in the Torah and the anywhere we see anything wrong and in the civil rights movement was a perfect place for our energies. So it's no surprise that 30 % of the people in the civil rights movement were Jewish and approximately

90 % of the lawyers who worked with Thurgood Marshall and others were Jewish. Where we see something wrong, we want to fix no matter where it is. So there is this other, this Jewish perspective also from this. But you said the relationship has seen better times. And that black Jewish relationship is such an interesting term. Relationship means you really know the other person, understand the other person. And even in the civil rights movement when they were arm and arm, door to door, registering people to vote, did they ever sit down and really talk to each other and hear what's it like to be black in America? What's it like to be Jewish in America? I don't know. People that have gone through that period say they didn't, they were arm and they got things done but they really didn't. Well it varied. I certainly remember my own experiences before the civil rights movement when I was living in Germany and my closest friends were Jews who had left during the programs and were coming back to Germany for the first time

since their families had been kicked out and had to flee for their lives. So there were periods with some African -Americans and Jews where there was discussion of what is it like? But I think that there was also a period, you talk about the NAACP and these organizations where the, as is often true in organizational relationships, there was a lot of perfunctory coming together and even coming together in each other's homes. I can remember that through my childhood where there were always Jewish people in our home or we were in their homes but this did not mean that we knew or understood or even discussed. And I think that it's not just related to blacks and Jews and you know to think of what generation this was. These were people who did not sit down and talk about personal feelings and in any way like goes on the day I'm sure that my mother and father would have a fit with some of these talk shows where

people pour out their guts and talk about the most intimate kinds of personal feelings. These were people who didn't do that anyway and there was also there were two other factors that I think may have contributed to that. One was African Americans of that generation of 20s, the 30s and even the 40s did not want to talk about what had happened to them and was happening to them. Even to their own kids. No one. Absolutely, especially not to their own kids. It's always been puzzling to me how much guilt African Americans of my parents generation carried for the victimization which they experienced and they didn't talk about it because talking about it would have been admitting acknowledging that you had been denigrated and fundamentally disregarded and that that was a weakness on your part and that detracted

from your self -worth and self -esteem and there was no way of acknowledging that that was not true of my parents I hasten to say we were activists from the beginning and so I heard of this stuff but I know that friends of mine did not and this what so you if you didn't do it with your children and with the people with whom you lived 24 hours a day why would you do it someone who was an arm's length friend or acquaintance and how would you permit the distortion of that relationship by introducing this hostility dynamic which you as an individual hadn't even been able to process for yourself. We're talking with Dr. Revan Scrugg's left which executive director of the Black Leadership Forum and Karen Kalish the founder and executive director of Operation Understanding DC the focus blacks and Jews unfinished business you can join the dialogue by calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800

-989 -8255 that's 1 -800 -989 -8255. I'm going to throw out a question here I'm curious as to what you think the difference is you African -Americans have been this country for 379 -380 years and you are in the country where slavery occurred we're not in the country where our Holocaust occurred we're in a place actually we're in a place that has been very good to Jews America has been wonderful to and for the Jews so we're not where our Holocaust occurred what difference do you think that makes in how we are in America how Jews are in America how both both because there is we're not in the same place right now you know we're in we have we're in two separate places blacks and Jews because I think there's an even larger dichotomy here between blacks and everybody else it is that for blacks and there are polls that the National Council of Christians and Jews

did a survey in night this is 898 about 1995 on how do people feel about each other Jews Koreans Christian whites and blacks and in this poll it was clearly established that on every measure of preference in a rank -ordered hierarchy blacks were at the bottom least desired to be hired first desired first intended to be fired least desired to live next I mean you name all of the measures of of reconciliation or rejection that you can think of and they ask questions about that so blacks view themselves as in just a position with everybody including Jews because Jews are seen as white and even though we're we don't consider ourselves I know we look at but we consider ourselves Jewish

well yeah but to right but to you I'm to African -Americans we look like we're to African Americans in a very real sense Jewishness is religion and not race first and and culture and not race and on race measures Jews are seen by almost all blacks as white where are we today we've talked a little about the history how would you characterize the highlights and the low lights of the relationship today well they're there there is virtually none there isn't an active dynamic relationship in institutional time oh Capitol Hill though I think in politics Jews and blacks vote together 89 90 percent of the time well that that ends true but they don't hang together 89 percent of the time you know well when in the voting record shows no no but I'm telling you about something else I'm talking about where the coalition

occurs the legal Congo conures they'll tell you there's a black Jewish coalition on Capitol Hill but I've been on Capitol Hill I'm telling you when they look for friends they may they're certainly are friends on personal basis but Israel and its relationship to the to Palestine is a very tendentious subject but haven't blacks voted for Israel and haven't you you know voted for African issues yeah but I don't know that that answers the question that Ken has raised well we're talking about where we are today well there's different marinas well that that that certainly is true but my feeling is that institutionally there is no relationship in the civil rights movement there were institutional relationships that means the Jewish community was seen by most blacks in institutional terms as being friends not enemies and it was understood clearly that if you wanted to have an initiative the first group you reached out to was the Jewish community

I don't know where that exists anymore in political terms while on the Hill yes there is a coalition in part that that is the case because there are hardly any Hispanics and everybody else is not a part of the history of protection and reinforcement of black rights and their Democrats yes so that that's that's a comfortable relationship and it is governed I think by the terms of political engagement it's not governed however by the social terms no I think you're right and it it certainly doesn't get translated to the larger community as a working coalition and I'm just thinking about that now I spent on my life in politics of some kind or other and so I understand when you talk about the relationship between blacks and Jews on the Hill but I cannot

think of a time recently where that was described we're coming up on 29 minutes into the hour we're talking about unfinished business between blacks and Jews when we come back from our break we want to talk with Karen Kalish about establishing new institutional relationships in her organization especially operation understanding DC our discussion will continue when we come back internet services for PowerPoint are provided by world african network offering news information sports and entertainment or african and african american communities through broad line dot com that's www dot w -a -n online dot com you're listening to public

radio and this is PowerPoint with Kenneth Walker welcome back once again we're talking with dr evan scruggs left which executive director of the black leadership forum and Karen Kalish executive director of operation understanding this focus this hour blacks and Jews unfinished business you can join the dialogue by calling the PowerPoint hotline at one eight hundred nine eight two five five that's one eight hundred two five five Karen Kalish sometime ago I believe ninety two may have been the year you took a look around and figured you needed to do something about all this what did you do and why i'm so glad you asked we we started a program called operation understanding DC and it's a year -long program for black and Jewish high school students they spend a year learning about their own and each others race religion culture and history how do they do this we started Martin Luther King birthday weekend and they have a retreat designed to have them get to know each other and they meet every two weeks for the next six months we have an entire weekend in April they learn about the civil rights movement hearing from every possible leader we can find and it's just

wonderful and then in july they leave and they go on a month -long trip to New York City Charleston Atlanta all over Alabama Montgomery Selma Tuskegee Birmingham in the Mississippi Philadelphia Jackson Utica the only Jewish summer camp in the south up the Delta to Memphis little rock where they meet with one of the little rock nine in her worst tormentor and this year we went to Detroit to see the new African -American Museum in Motown that wonderful Holocaust Museum and the end of the underground railroad and we came home and it's a life -changing trip they talk to the women who started the Montgomery bus boycott they attend church every Sunday they attend synagogue every Friday night they attend a mosque at the call to prayer every Friday afternoon the most important part of the social aspects they live together for 24 hours a day 28 days and we shove as much knowledge into them as we possibly can and it's a life -changing trip they really see what it's like to be black in America all told have been through the program 84 84 and we just chose our fifth class

24 kids from D .C. Maryland of Virginia but the most important part that's all gravy the most important part of the program is in the fall in the spring and the fall we have them in a cloistered retreat where they learn how to discuss discuss issues like segregation and stereotypes and integration and self -segregation and interracial dating and they go into the schools churches and synagogues and lead discussions with their peers with an eye toward changing attitudes What's the measure of success for something like that? We're only five years old I can tell you three things I can tell you that almost all of our alumni are involved in campus on their college campuses in some kind of diversity issue we've got African American kids joining hello we've got Jewish kids joining the BSU the black student union I can also tell you that they tell us that they're more comfortable with all the other students they come in contact with with people who are different not just black with Jews just black with blacks with Jews but with Hispanic with Latino with Asian everyone who's different much more than the other kids that come to their schools and we're talking Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford University Chicago you know top schools I think that is crucial

that these are two to buy products of this important program and these are kids who are going to call each other in 10 15 years and get something done together it's hard to call someone you don't know they become sister and brother let's talk to Ernest and Baltimore he's listing with station w e a a welcome to PowerPoint Ernest yeah good good evening Jeff ladies and gentlemen thank you you know I want to direct this question Mr. Calis you know before I make my point you know when you talk about the Jewish religion it's the same way as you talk about the Muslim religion or the Catholic religion you have Catholics and Jews of all faith if I went to China I would find Chinese people that was other Jewish faith and it's a lot of missed talk see in Europeans they're called Afganazis but you have African Jews Arab Jews that look like the people so it's not it depends on the it's not a ethnic whatever it's whatever whoever you are I never hear anybody say what about meeting with the Catholics or stuff

like that it's not a race it's a religion and that's the first thing but the second thing why is it that when Abraham Foxman made a statement that the African Americans were the most anti -Semitic people in the United States when actually when you talk about being Semitic African people are some Semitic people if you speak a Semitic language let's let's get a response to that first of all let me tell you a Semitic language then you are a Semitic people Ernest let me respond first of all let's tell the audience Abraham Foxman executive director of the anti -defamation league and the main office in New York and they just had a study that in their study showed that there was it was actually a survey of attitudes among Americans in which they posed a number of questions including whether or not you thought that Jews had too much influence in the media and on the basis of the answers to these questions they concluded that African

Americans were four times more anti -Semitic than other groups in America we have to remember you have to consider the source always and the ADL builds its financial appeal on its ability to portray Jews as surrounded by enemies who are on the verge of launching threatening anti -Semitic campaigns so they have a professional stake in exaggerating the dangers I didn't see the survey but I can tell you that the ADL makes you know has to raise money they do a lot of good they have a wonderful program called the world of difference they do they point out anti -Semitism many places but we have to consider the source of this I didn't see the survey and it's actually the results were very disturbing to me did you see the survey no I don't but I heard about it yeah and I do you know Karen it be earlier you said you left the ADL and I used to you used well I don't like the air turning laundry I used to be on the board but did not agree with what was going on in the office so I put my attentions elsewhere but I do think they do some good work let me just I don't think we have time for it because of switchboards ringing off the

hook I do want to thank you so much for bringing that to the table though the best to you in Baltimore let's talk to Steve and Philadelphia he's listening with station WHYY welcome to powerpoint Steve happy to be here but right ahead with your point of question well when I grew up black I'm Jewish and blacks were equal to Jews absolutely my parents taught me that and there were people who worked for people in my neighborhood I grew up in the Jewish neighborhood and black people worked for people in the neighborhood and some of my best friends were black absolutely and this was not understood this is the 40s now all right I'm 57 and Jews understood that these were people period do you still have these African -American friends Steve yes I do I did and I do absolutely okay see even I both know what it's

like to be persecuted to not be I never understood persecution I never did well I think that's one of the things that makes operation understanding such an attractive remedy it was wonderful wide open it was beautiful it's an attractive remedy because it does reflect the patterning that occurs when you get young people young enough for them to be open to the exploration with people who are not like themselves I had the same experience growing up where I was involved but I think here again what we're trying to do is find some way that goes beyond one -on -one to open the dialogue again and for there to be discussion of the commonality of experiences rather than the differences Steve how would you characterize in general the relationships to such extent you can talk about relationships between groups of people between blacks and

Jews and Philadelphia yes sir it's tough that's tough I cannot generalize it okay it's very very specific okay in my case I mean everyone is equal in my case thank you so much for for bringing that to the table Steve the best to you in Philadelphia let's talk to Barry he's in Houston and listening with station KTSU welcome to PowerPoint Barry great so as usual the host is usually a genial self thank you two questions for the guest one to one extent did the interracial marriages interracial dating contribute to the unity here to four guess the first question or what's that here to four meaning years gone by yes well I don't know that that was I think that was a product of some of the closeness and

the parallel lives of blacks and Jews I think quite frankly there's much more interracial marrying and dating now than there was when I was going up because that was one of the difficulties and you grew up with people and you went through grammar school and then you got to high school and the question was well are you gonna date and that did not happen a whole lot when I was going up I grew up in Buffalo New York where people lived in the same community the communities were very diverse a lot of them and I just that's the one other point you the the caller from from before from Philadelphia one of the things that happened in Philadelphia was the migration and the suburbanization the disinvestment process where in Philadelphia in particular large Jewish communities began to emerge in the suburbs where people had lived side lived in Philadelphia a long time where people had lived side by side before and so he says now that it's not as good as it was when he was a kid

there's a lot more distance geographic distance between blacks and Jews in Philadelphia now than when he was a kid let me just say two things about dating from a Jewish point of view first of all one of the biggest issues in the Jewish community is continuity there's over 50 percent of Jewish people who are marrying outside the religion and only 20 percent of those are bringing their kids up Jewish so this is quite disturbing to many people in the Jewish community so and dating anyone not Jewish is a problem for some Jewish people but where race is concerned you know there are many African Americans who are Jews and there are many and even in Israel there's Ethiopian to Jews and I can tell you that it's in many cases it's not a problem if they're Jewish it doesn't matter they're Black or them I mean only in the last year as have they started accepting Ethiopian Jew blood in the hospitals I mean there was a huge controversy that's that that's an Israel but in in America and especially in the orthodox community if the person is Jewish that is okay Julius Leicester's daughter can marry any orthodox white orthodox and they're happy as a clan Barry how would you characterize Black Jewish relations in Houston and Houston it's

gotten a lot better but at that least one second question to what extent has the the Black Muslims contributed to this chasm and to this divide who somehow feel they have to support the Arabs on the average really conflict which I think is so many thousand miles away it shouldn't affect the fear but apparently it does well that it has contributed mightily because I think they're on both sides on on the Black side is the the dynamic as you characterize it Barry where there is a lot of feeling of identity identity with the Arabs by Afro by American Blacks or or American Muslims on the other side there is the sort of obsession by Jews with Lewis Farrakhan which makes it a little difficult to have a conversation with somebody you don't really know because the

second thought is well how do you feel about Lewis Farrakhan well you know I kind of feel anything about Lewis Farrakhan in most of the time but I can remember giving a speech to a group of Jewish journalists I was invited to talk about this subject and they were all very they were professional journalists and I said you know one of the things that impedes the conversation between us is that in any mixed audience if an African -American is talking about the relationship first thing happens is somebody asks me how I feel about Lewis Farrakhan and wouldn't you know that with the question and answer period game the very first question one of those that it does ask me was well but how do you explain what Lewis Farrakhan you know like well it you know it's well first of all let me Barry I want to thank you for both questions they were very helpful thanks for bringing them to the table the best to you in Houston that kind of what seemed to many African -Americans to be litmus testing a requirement that so -called legitimate African -American leaders repudiate Farrakhan to what extent does that

add to the tension in you know well it adds to the tension because I think many African -Americans feel first of all that there's no messianic leader that there's no single charismatic leader it has been clearly demonstrated that Lewis Farrakhan does in fact lead lots of people and so African -American leaders whom I know make up my board of directors in fact are not about to say that Lewis Farrakhan is not a leader and this is a problem for a lot of Jewish leaders and Jewish people that you won't you mean the African -Americans won't show what he does and what he says and put it in the sunshine and repudiate him how do you characterize the difference between I mean many African -American leaders you know Martin Luther King Jr. of the SCLC has just announced you'll launch a continuing dialogue with Farrakhan don't believe he's anti -Semitic how do you square the these vastly different impressions well it depends on which day you catch through his Farrakhan quite frankly

you know there's sometimes when he says he's anti -Semitic he's not anti -Semitic and there's sometimes when he's vituperative and I think that one is dissembling if one doesn't recognize that about Lewis Farrakhan but that has nothing to do with whether or not he is identified and recognized as a leader and I cannot think of any politically sound reason for African -American leaders who are trying to maintain their their relationship with their own flock whatever that constituency is taking an uninspired position about whether or not Lewis Farrakhan is a leader and that's what do you think of John Lewis and Julian Bond I mean they both have come out and and repudiated what he has said well Julian Bond is just now beginning to be the chair of a national organization which means he's just now getting

a constituency he has to respond to and John Lewis has his district that he's elected from in Atlanta and is not a national leader I'm talking about national leaders of national organizations who like Lewis Farrakhan who is a leader of a national organization let's talk to Alan in Washington he's listening with station WPFW welcome to PowerPoint Alan hi good evening first of all if you're talking about repudiating I don't and I'm as a revolutionary minded Jew I don't see a whole lot of Jews reputing America honey or the state of Israel for that matter which is was the inspiration for the apartheid state in South Africa if you study your history hi I'm Whiteman and Jan Smuts were very close and very and and and the the whole system of apartheid was based was it was inspired by by their conversations and discussions if there's going to be any reconciliation between Jews and blacks we have we as Jews progressive minded Jews have to start by

reputing the whole concept that somehow we're a chosen people that our halitosis doesn't stink and then we have to realize that the state of Israel the state of power is not the state of Israel but it's occupied Palestine that should be shared by by all the peoples of the world because it's not just one holy land and we also have to realize that during the 60s a lot of Jews were mistakenly fell into the idea fell into some of the ideas of Trotskyism which did not support African -Americans right to self -determination they kind of glossed it over in political terms in class struggle here class struggle there but never really came out and supported that and one of the ways one of the positive ways that Jews and blacks can get together is the defense of Mu 'mi Abu Jammal in Pennsylvania in Philadelphia hello he's for the benefit of our other listeners a journalist sitting on death row in Pennsylvania I go to Philadelphia all the time for demonstrations for Mu 'mi Abu Jammal and their blacks and Jews and their Muslims and their

people of all different races and religions coming together to save our brother Mu 'mi and that's a positive way that we can do this thanks a lot Alan thanks for the point the very best you in Philadelphia we're coming up on 48 minutes 30 seconds into the hour blacks and Jews unfinished business 1 -800 -989 -8255 our discussion will continue when we come back still ahead on PowerPoint in hour two of PowerPoint our final ambassadors round table segment of 1998 opened your eyes to a story that has happened invisibly a horrible story we're talking about days of rage and rampage in Africa Sierra Leone stay tuned there's more PowerPoint just ahead this is public radio and you're listening to PowerPoint our program will continue in just a moment you welcome back I'm Kenneth Walker we are going to go back to the

phones now and speak with justice he's in Montgomery Alabama and listening through station WVAS welcome to PowerPoint justice thank you and I would like to greet your guest and also greet the last caller was Jewish he was right on time you know as long as we're divided powerless pray a begging nobody's going to respect us and nobody's going to bond with us the first thing we should do is unite together become a nation begin controlling over our own community our own economy and then start seeking a homeland in Africa here in America some place on this earth and control our own destiny then people will respect us you see we are worse now than we were doing this success the communities that we once had and now get those in this corrupt destroying us in every way where are our friends where are the people who want to bond with us and and use their knowledge and and wealth and et cetera helping liberate us from the ghetto so we should forget about all of the races and concentrate on united with our own people and rebuilding the nation and restoring the manhood

and our men and then we can go on about the business and people will respect us and they will see us as being equal nobody supports us getting reparation nobody supports us seeking a homeland for our own so how can we look to anyone for for relationship with we need to focus on our own people and our own interest thank you so much justice the best to you in Montgomery let's talk to Roy he's in Philadelphia listening through station w h y y welcome to PowerPoint Roy hi cleaning I like to give a suggestion and my experience in life I feel that the roots to all solving all these types of racial strife problems and conflicts are basically to get spiritual correct information that relates to the fact that we all are brothers and sisters and in our society we have been divided based on conditioning and lost information and one time I lived in the israel for two years and I saw the problem with the Ethiopians there's a big African American community in the south of israel's called

and there's a lot of African Americans who live there and they're following the Jewish religion and they're not doing too well there with the israelian people the the problem is that we think that we are this body and this body is temporary that's all I like to say thank you so much Roy for bringing that to the table the best to you in Philadelphia let's try Christopher he's in Baltimore listening with station w e a a welcome to PowerPoint Christopher yes yes thank you hello to your guests first of all I like to say that black people have been used as a buffer in the civil rights movement also that Jewish people not all Jewish people but some Jewish people in powerful positions taking use their skin color for an advantage politically you know Francis like using the word semi you know because that word is a linguistic term and it was never used as a race term

and I think that if you had somebody they're more qualified like Dr. Linda Jeffery's or you know Dr. Clark has passed away but really to be true for which you the black most black people who are upper class or upper middle class they don't speak for the grassroots mr. Farrakhan Dr. John Duke Clark those are the people who speak for the grassroots and that's the reason why they get so much support the bullay or the bourgeoisie Nick Rose they don't speak for us thank you so much for Christopher and the best to you in Baltimore for listeners who want a comment on this you can call our comment line it's recorded at 1 -888 -682 -6500 that's 1 -888 -682 -6500 I want to spend our remaining moments with each of you in terms of where we go from here well I certainly think that there's some things there's some dynamics of foot that suggest the importance of rekindling the the union of blacks and Jews certainly not the least of these is the feeling that in this country

there is emerging an unimmutable thrust away from all of those gains and accomplishments that occurred in the 60s and in the anti -affirmative action the pro religious right even the travesty that happened in congress yesterday where there is hatred and classism and aditism and anti actually many blacks feel anti black feeling that was a part of that dynamic and I think that there is much to be said for the reuniting of of groups that understand the fundamental importance of of getting together and doing things together to turn back this conservative tie there was a group of rabbis and ministers who were meeting for over three years right here in Washington

on a regular basis monthly basis and they all report having learned an enormous amount about each other from the dialogues and using the information in their sermons and with their congregants and a couple of them paired up and I'm hoping that more of them will pair up so people are talking the also the parents of the people young the young people operation understanding meet every six weeks during the year their children are in the program and they learn it enormous minutes the first time they've ever been in a conversation really with people of a different race and really talking about important issues so in different places we are getting people together to talk not enough I'm afraid yeah Cornell West and Michael Lerner wrote a book blacks and Jews which was actually a long dialogue that they had and their last chapter is grounds for hope in which they say what Karen has just said that the actual experience of caring that develops between people who spend time together and share words and ideas is at the core of reconciliation I want to thank both I guess Karen Kay was executive

director of Operation Understanding DC Dr. Avon Scruggs left which executive director of the Black Leadership Forum for launching our discussion on blacks and Jews which we will revisit here on PowerPoint from time to time once again our comment line number is 1 8 8 6 8 2 6 500 1 8 8 6 8 2 6 500 your comments will be recorded some of them will be played on next week's show this is PowerPoint I'm Kenneth Walker if you would like a tape or transcript of this or any past edition of PowerPoint or to make listener comments or program suggestions please call PowerPoint toll free at 1 8 8 6 8 2 6 500 that's 1 8 8 8 6 8 2 6

500 here's what's coming your way next week on PowerPoint during our final program of 1998 congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee joins us to look back at events leading up to the impeachment of president Clinton and to look ahead to a possible senate trial in 1999 we also invite you to attend PowerPoint's second annual crystal ball with essence magazine astrologer Ayesha Grace join us the creators of PowerPoint include senior producer Tony Redusters producer director Debbie Williams news anchor Verna Avery Brown and associate producer Tom Woodwood our points phone producer is Kay Marshall our broadcast production assistant is Eric Lewis our points NPR broadcast technical director is Neil Tivolt legal affairs for PowerPoint are handled by theodore Brown our program announcer is candy Shannon our points theme is from the CDF stops by Craig Harris the executive producer is Reggie Hicks I'm Kenneth Walker thanks for listening

PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting's Radio program fund this is PowerPoint a production of Hicks and Associates this is Kenneth Walker in Washington DC inviting you to stay tuned for more PowerPoint as we present 1998 final ambassadors roundtable with the ambassador of Sierra Leone and a tale of terror and survival in a fledgling African democracy stay tuned and

children made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is PowerPoint, an Information Age clearinghouse for issues affecting the African -American community, the nation, and the world. And now, PowerPoints Kenneth Walker. For the next hour in Empower Points Final Ambassadors Round Table Segment in 1998, we open your eyes to a

horror story that's been happening right before the eyes of the world. We will tell you a horror story of savage rampage in Sierra Leone, Africa. In the telling of this story, there have been murders and tortures, but the one signal brutal act of these bandits involves hacking off both hands of any man, woman or child. They come in contact with rendering that person in terms of the hard realities and social context of Africa, useless, helpless. As scores of refugees pour into surrounding African nations, border guards know they are from Sierra Leone because they don't have any hands. Joining us to discuss this tragedy in a fledgling democracy is Excellency John Lee, Ambassador of... By calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255, that's 1 -800 -989

-8255. Our story begins in a moment, but first... PowerPoint news with Verna Avery Brown. For PowerPoint news and information to empower the community, I'm Verna Avery Brown. History will record that the 105th Congress was only the second House of Representatives to vote to impeach a U .S. President. Next, the U .S. Senate... Production

and broadcast of PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is PowerPoint, an information age clearinghouse for issues affecting the African -American community, the nation, and the world. And now, PowerPoint's Kenneth Walker. For the next hour in an PowerPoint's final Ambassadors Round Table segment in 1998, we open your eyes to a horror story that's been happening right before the eyes of the world. We will tell you a horror story of Savage Rampage and Sierra Leone, Africa. In the telling of this story, there have been murders and tortures, but the one signal brutal act of these bandits involves hacking off both hands of any man, woman or child. They come in contact with rendering that person in terms of the hard realities

and social context of Africa, useless, helpless. As scores of refugees pour into surrounding African nations, border guards know they are from Sierra Leone because they don't have any hands. Joining us to discuss this tragedy in a fledgling democracy is Excellency John Lee, ambassador of Sierra Leone to the United States. Dr. Suleiman Yang, professor of African studies at Howard University and Mr. Chad Baylor Kalker, a Sierra Leonean national and survivor of the terrorists. As always, you can join the discussion by calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Our story begins in a moment, but first, PowerPoint news. With Verna Avery Brown. For PowerPoint news and

information to empower the community, I'm Verna Avery Brown. History will record that the 105th Congress was only the second House of Representatives to vote to impeach a US president. Next, the U .S. Senate will hold trial and Supreme Court Justice William Rinquist will preside as judge. The senators will act as the jury, asking questions only through Chief Justice Rinquist. Monica Lewinsky and Linda Trip are likely to be called as witnesses to testify about matters such as where they were touched and when. The votes were cast largely along partisan lines with Democrats fighting in vain to the bitter end to avoid impeachment, representative Juanita Melendur, MacDonald of California. Mr. Speaker, I had hope this moment could have never come. And the members of the Judiciary Committee, after carefully examining the evidence, history and their conscience could recognize that these charges do not rise to the level of an impeachable offense. However, with this vote, we have the opportunity by censure to live up to the famous vision

and honorably close a sat chapter in our Republic's history. And we can open or we can open a new one that is perilous. I will say to you my friends that the American people in history will judge us. Yes, you have the votes to impeach, but can your conscience withstand the scrutiny that history will bring to bear on your vote? What a sad day in this history of America. A Senate trial could take anywhere from three to nine months putting normal senatorial business on hold. A two -thirds majority in the Senate is required to remove the president from office. Most political observers agree that's an unlikely prospect. Baghdad, meanwhile, remains defiant in the midst of U .S. and British bombs. Iraqi's Vice President has announced its ending all dealings with the UN Special Commission which oversees the weapons inspections. Hundreds of protesters attacked the U .S. and British embassies in Syria a Saturday, as tens of thousands took to the streets to denounce the U .S. bombing. Rockman Ali Jibori is a former Iraqi soldier who came to the U .S. after

attempting but failing to remove Saddam Hussein from office following the Gulf War. But in an interview with PowerPoint News, Ali Jibori opposes the bombings and issues a plea to the American people. Iraqi people love to be a friend for the Americans. Don't listen to a lot of media trash from both sides and really it is time we need you and we need your help. We don't need your bombing, we don't need your ears to try, we need your help. How, how might they go about helping? Well, stopping that bombing right now, I know Saddam Hussein is the worst man on the earth but there is another way to deal with him. And you know, you can organize a lot of things and organize the Iraqi people here in the U .S. And they are willing to go there and willing to destroy the regime, just give them the help and training. Sporadic shootings and explosions rocked the southern suburbs of the Congo Republic Capitol, Brazaville on Saturday. The president, Denis Sassou and Gueso says it's mopping up infiltrators but the clashes ease

by early evening as the city began a third night without electricity. Government officials side -step questions about whether they were fighting militia loyal to the exiled opposition, dismissing the attackers as bandits or looters. The opposition leader Bernard Koleilus, ousted as prime minister last year, says his ninja militia infiltrated the city and controlled much of it. Up next PowerPoints ambassadors round table, the topic, the tragedy of Sierra Leone. To join in on the discussion, call us at 1 -800 -989 -8255. For PowerPoint news and information, I'm Verna Avery -Brown. Welcome back, I'm Kenneth Walker.

So far this year, according to the United Nations, more than 4 ,000 people have been summarily executed or mutilated by so -called rebels in Sierra Leone. Again, so far this year, more than 300 ,000 civilians have been forced to flee their homes as refugees from this violence. This horrific carnage comes after more than a decade of similar atrocities in Liberia, which, of course, along with Sierra Leone are the two African nations founded by freed slaves. And that's our focus this hour, PowerPoint's final ambassadors round table of 1998. As always, we invite your participation by calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255 to help guide our exploration. We have Sierra Leone's ambassador to the United States, John Lee, Dr. Suleiman Yang, professor of African studies at

Howard University, and Shad Baylor -Calker, a national from Sierra Leone, who survived some of the terrorists. Gentlemen, welcome. Welcome to you all. Good evening. Thank you. Ambassador Lee, let's start with you. It's, it's apparently for some time now this awful series of events has been going on in Sierra Leone. I read in the wires this morning that the rebels have captured a capital in the diamond mining province. Give us the situation today, as you know it in Sierra Leone. The institution today is really not encouraging. Because of foreign intervention in Sierra Leone, a lot of fighting goes on around the borders. They are supported from outside, most of the fighters are non -S Sierra Leoneans, and they have been shipped into the forest, into our towns and villages, more less than innocent people in villages. These soldiers don't go to wear copenforces or present. They go to

defenseless villages and hack to death, people who have nothing to do with them. Why? Because they are mean, they have no case, they have no support, and they are revengeing. That's all. What are they avenging? The people voted them out. The people fighting are really the guys who have been running Sierra Leone for the last 20 to 25 years. In 1994, the people stood up against them and demanded elections. In 1996, the people elected my own party into power. And those guys who lost elections have in order skills, except to rip off the land, began to cause trouble. They got their fellows in the military to overthrow the elected government. For nine months, the people who voted in or in, engaged in civil disobedience, wanting these people out. The military, a junta used force, brutality, and unspeakable terror to get the way. The people refused them. Eventually, the nations of

West Africa came together and removed these hooligans. These are the people out in the bush, walking with nibbling outlaws to terrorize the countryside. Nobody wants them. They have no support in the country. All they have are amps, and their ability to hide in the forest and attack innocent settlements, isolated settlements. That's what they're doing. Chad, Baylor Cawker, you were in Sierra Leone. Tell us when, and pretty succinctly, because we want to get to Dr. Nyang also. Tell us what you saw, what was going on when you went back. Well, actually, May the 25th was, I think, a lot of us in Sierra Leone forever live in infamy. In our minds, it was a Sunday morning, and one was thinking of getting ready to go to church. All one got was deathly silence from where we lived anyway, because we live way out in the outskirts. And

telephone calls telling us that they were breaking open the central prison, and shots were being fired in the main vicinity of the town. Of course, people thought, well, things like that happened all the time, because even though the new government had been voted in, there was still a lot of rebel activity going on up country. The war had not ceased. Even though peace agreement had been signed, and the government was working towards that, so people would not really take much mind to it. It only became very serious, say, around 8 o 'clock, 9 o 'clock, when, I mean, for the first time in my life, I never heard the church bell ring. And fortunately, that day was a Trinity Sunday. I mean, no church bells rang or peeled in any part of the city at all. And then we knew things were really serious. I think the force and brutality of the coup, the way the soldiers and rebels took over the city, which such

rampant violence, I mean, was what really was their first and biggest mistake. What do you mean rampant violence? They had no compassion for anybody. They shot people. They raped people. I mean, nobody was spared. Usually, when coups have happened in Sierra Leone, it's a very quick thing. The soldiers would come into the streets and shoot in the air, and everybody would stay indoors until they get control of what they needed to get control of. But with this coup, people went into people's houses. They stopped you in your car, commanded the car, or if they couldn't drive you, they would have to become their driver. They went into everybody's house. They looted. They raped people of all nations. I mean, there was a very sad case of the Belgian manager for Sabina Airlines, a very nice man who was very, very popular in Sierra Leone, because Sabina was very much involved in the society in promoting a lot of

things. And had recently just provided tickets for a Gula family from South Carolina, ten of them had gone to Sierra Leone to find their roots. And these were sort of things. It was a very popular man, sponsor football teams, things like that. And his wife, unfortunately, and they lived in an area where it was near the barracks, and the house was broken into. And his wife was raped in front of him. Hey, man, he's two kids. God knows how many of them, you know, these people. And I really pray for her every day. I hope that she can ever recover from that. I don't know whether she should be able to recover from that. But these are the sort of things that happened continuously, which we had never seen happen before. People will be raped, people will be killed, people who had their possessions. I mean, they just went into every house to just loot, take, people got killed, because they kept coming in, and people would pay them, give them money, say, okay, here, this is all I have. And remember you, this is a Sunday morning. People have gone out, and we can't, they've spent their money. They have no more money, so they'll just be coming in once. The whole group would come

in, and then they'll go and tell the others, oh, there's money in that house, go and get some, they just gave us this money. So another group would come in, and demand more money from you. And up to the point where you don't have any money to give them, then you might meet the wrong bunch, who would just kill you. Because they have nothing to take, you have nothing to give to them. You felt obliged to what night is I understand it to just leave your home. Of course. To abandon it. Yes, what was that all about? Because I mean, after, I mean, for a while, in the heat of everything, people, it was just mainly mayhem. They wanted to take cars, they wanted to take things, they just wanted to take possessions, they wanted to take anything. And after a while, then they started to stalk out people who they thought could be useful to them. And if you were not going to be useful to them, then they weren't going to have you around. So, you know, since everybody who was anybody, any man of substance, be your medical doctor or lawyer, people just decided to get out of it. Because this was not a government or a people you could talk to or deal with.

It was either there, where no way at all. And these were the aggressors, the attackers, the murderers, were Sierra Leoneas. Of course. I think these are people who have been in the bush. We have been fighting them for six or seven years. As Ambassador Lee had said, these are the people that, for a long time, used to run the country until the coup ousted them in 1992. And then in 1994, the civilians demanded a civilian government, you know, democracy back from the military. And they never wanted to relinquish power. So... We're talking with Mr. Chad Baylor -Calker, a survivor and witness of the murder in Mayhem and Sierra Leone, Ambassador John Lee from the Embassy of Sierra Leone, and Professor Suleiman Yang, of the Department of African Studies in Howard University. And the focus is Sierra Leone. You can join the discussion by calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Dr. Yang, to many American

ears, this is what we have just heard from the Ambassador in Chad about what's going on in Sierra Leone seems to be going on, or has gone on in a number of African countries. What's going on here? Well, I think when we look at the Sierra Leonean situation, we can see that there are certain peculiarities about the political breakdown in Sierra Leone. But it fits a larger pattern of political turmoil across the continent. Two points need to be emphasized here. One is that what is happening in Sierra Leone is a manifestation of unresolved problems of state building in Africa. And in this case... Well, state building in the sense that when the Europeans left, the Europeans were able to maintain power by force, because they were outsiders, and they had credible force that suppressed African chiefs and all other people. So, at the time of independence, African leaders who were nationalists were able to mobilize

the communities of Africans to put forth political parties, and of course, at the time, the winning party to power. Now, what has happened in most African countries is that you had one party dictatorship in the long run. And in Sierra Leone, you had a dictatorship on the Shaka Stevens. And of course, that dictatorship ended up in the hands of the military because when Shaka Stevens retired, he handed power on precedently to a military man. This has never happened in the history of politics. Civilian giving power voluntarily to a military man, but he was trying to protect himself. That was why he did that. Now, a dictator by the name of Momo ruled Sierra Leone for a long time until he was kicked out by the military. But at the time, he was kicked out. There was already ongoing civil war, not on light scale, but it was going on. Even on the Shaka Stevens, but it was not widely known. What is happening now really is that a democratically elected government was overthrown by a

bunch of military men in Sierra Leone. And now that government has been restored by ECMOC. This now moves from a state building problem in Sierra Leone, which is a problem phase in many other African countries, to the interference in Sierra Leone politics by external forces. From a Sierra Leone and Democratic point of view, the interference of ECMOC was part of the regional stabilization program. And the Nigerians played a very important role in bringing this about. Meaning it was a good thing. It was a good thing from a Democratic point of view. The irony was, of course, it was General Abakia, who was helping when he himself was denying democracy to the Nigerians. Tango for the Nigerians, he has been recalled by God. So that has solved the problem in Nigeria. The reality is, Sierra Leone has a Democratic government on the President Kaba. And the Sierra Leoneans, who are Democrats, would like to see a democracy in Sierra Leone. I think most Sierra Leoneans would like to see a Democratic society. That's correct. You see. Well, let's talk about some of these outside influences. I understand from some of my research and best relief that the librarians are

thought by this year, Sierra Leonean government to be helping the rebels financing them, giving them aid and comfort. Let's talk about some of these outside influences. Well, what I know is that people in Sierra Leone, the church, non -governmental organizations, missionaries, the Catholic church, teachers, people in the villages, believe that interference is coming from next door. From Liberia. Some of the people, like Emma captured and arrested, were not Sierra Leoneans. The people committing the most heinous crimes in Sierra Leone, like mutualization and petitions, gang rape and so forth, are not from Sierra Leone. They are the Americans speaking people. The weapons are all imported weapons coming in from that path of the country. But the Liberian government has consistently denied that they are involved. Now, what we're looking for is evidence

that will be strong enough for us to bring a war crimes complaint against those involved in committing terrorism and abuse of human rights in Sierra Leone. But a lot of the people, actually non -S Sierra Leoneans and librarians speaking individuals, but we don't have spoken evidence to show that the people next door, they'll fish up next door, and in fact, they'll be involved. We're talking with Ambassador John Lee from the Embassy of Sierra Leone, Professor Suleiman Yang, a professor with the Department of African Studies at Howard University and Chad Baylor -Calker, a survivor and witness to at least the beginning of the murder and mayhem. You can join this discussion on Sierra Leone, PowerPoint's final ambassador's roundtable of the year. By calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255, that's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Ambassador Lee, what can you imagine would be the Liberian motivation for this? It's not hard to show, to

establish. In 1989, Suleiman joined with the other African states in trying to put his top to rebellion in Liberia. Now, one of the leaders of that rebellion supported a Suleon opposition group to punish Suleon for interfering in Liberia. Mrs. Charles Taylor, you're referring to the President of Liberia. That's correct, he's admitted to that. Now, Suleon was used as a strategic staging ground for echo mock activities in Liberia, and when once he supported that group, he was bound by them. Now, what I believe right now and what a lot of people are seeing is that because of the Liberian war, tens of thousands of young Liberians supported the victorious Charles Taylor in Liberia. Those people are now in Liberia, unemployed, no income, no activities, and no prospects inside. So these surplus manpower, tens of thousands of them, have been sent into Sarallion. They

could from them, and these are the guys, that were supporting the coin Sarallion between me and February, me of 1977 and February this year. And these are the guys committing their atrocities in the countryside in Sarallion, just surplus on skilled manpower, they know nothing but how to shoot. They have no education, no training. Claude Bailer -Calker, you saw some of these amputations, relations that the ambassador referred to. What was going on? What was that all about? Well, that's really hard to... You know, it's sad really, because this is something that I never really thought that a Sarallion could really come down to be able to do, is to have this capacity of such madness. After the, of course, amputations had started, I think, in the

latter stages of the war, leading off to a piece of code that was signed in November the 30th in Abijan. But it became the tool after the AFRC took over in May 25th, and the rebels joined them, and became more rampant after, during the times when... Because what had happened was, when the... The government, the AFRC, joined the took over, and the people refused to cooperate literally. Sarallion became... came to a ground, you know, to a standstill. And, of course, they felt that the only way they could get people motivated to support them was to whip up more terror, and make them more scared. So that's when the real use of amputations became more prominent, and they would go around villages, especially when they were not successful in dislodging the Nigerian ECOMOG lead, ECOMOG contingents, that took, you know, the war in charge of the Longhe airport. And a little enclave called Jewey, which is just outside of Freedom. They could not dislodge them. So every time they would suffer a setback, or they would be harassed by the Kamajors with

the local militiamen who were fighting against them upcountry. They would go around hacking people, young kids, eight -year -old girls, school kids, you know. Old people just cut off their arms, and I would just like you to imagine you going about your house the whole day without the use of your arms. Just strap them to the side and see if you can function for the whole day without the use of your arms. Be it at the cutoff at the wrist level or at the elbow level, you would decide. They would ask you to choose whether you wanted it, as they say, short sleeve, in other words, that's at the elbow level, or long sleeve at the wrist level, and then they would chop your hands off. Absolutely brutal beast, those guys. Dr. Nguyen, the question, the issue that Ambassador Lee raised about these children's soldiers, really, maybe 300 ,000 across the continent according to the U .N., after hostilities and their unemployed, uneducated, no skills, how big a problem is this of

unemployed, former child's soldiers across the continent? Well, this is a major problem. Of course, Sarallion becomes the metaphor for this kind of situation, but they were Somali incidents. You know, during the Somali crisis, you remember American newspapers talking about Somali rambos. I mean, you know, like these are kids who somehow assumed that they are doing Hollywood, kind of, rambuism with fatal consequences. I mean, you know, for their people, because this is not a Hollywood movie. This is for kids, for reality. But child's soldier phenomena is a rampant problem in Africa, and it has an old history. It goes back to the wars against India, I mean, in Uganda, in Sudan, in Congo, you know, the forces against Mubu too. Most of those people who were fighting were kids. I mean, like from Rwanda, the problem in Sarallion to come specifically to this Sarallion situation, really, is like most other African countries, the population, the majority of the population in Sarallion as in many

other African countries, is below 35 years old or even younger. So you have a major problem. The arrival rate exceeds the service rate for employment. Most of these young people are finishing high school or primary schools. And they don't have jobs. What compounded the problem for Sarallion is that Sarallion became the receiving end of the Liberian Civil War. And Sarallion also became the staging ground for the ECMOB in order to bring down the opposition in Liberia. And of course, what has happened really is, and this is where Sarallion is paying the price, Charles Taylor, who was the better noir of the ECMOB forces, ended up becoming president of Liberia. Now, you see, this is a very unprecedented development. The one who was targeted as the root cause of the problem in Liberia, ended up as the president of Liberia. After an election, we should... Well, yes,

after an election. Well, in Liberia, there was a joke going around that he killed my mommy, he killed my papa, and we're going to elect him. He spoils it, let him fix it. That's the attitude that developed among Liberians. So I think this is the point. The child's soldier phenomena in Sarallion is part of a universal African problem. I also think, actually, this with Charles Taylor, when you talked about this, it's the same strategy that they want to employ in Sarallion. You know, it's Taylor, literally, as I explained earlier, butchered his people into submission. It was either they voted for him, or they would have another seven years of relentless war, which he was prepared to continue, regardless of... So the rebels in Sierra Leone look next to her and say, hey, that works. That's right. Precisely. But unfortunately, they have not really... I think they've taken a little bit more than they could chew, because the people, the resolve of the Sarallion people, we're a different breed. We're completely different breeders. We have shown the junta, and we showed them in the 10 months. We're not going to be beaten into submission. We're talking with Mr. Chad Baylor -Calker, a survivor and witness to the murder and mayhem

in Sierra Leone, the ambassador from Sierra Leone to the United States, John Lee, and Professor Suleiman Yang, with the Department of African Studies in Howard University, the PowerPoint hotline 1 -800 -989 -888, 255, our discussion on Sierra Leone will continue when we come back. Internet services for PowerPoint are provided by World African Network, offering news, information, sports, and entertainment for African and African -American communities through broadband and new media technologies. The web address is www .wanonline .com That's www .wanonline .com

You're listening to Public Radio, and this is PowerPoint with Kenneth Walker. Welcome back once again, our focus this hour, the final ambassadors round table of 1998 for PowerPoint, Sierra Leone, murder and mayhem, Mr. In Sierra Leone, we're talking with Ambassador John Lee, Chad Baylor -Calker, a survivor and witness and Professor Suleiman Yang of Howard University. The PowerPoint hotline is 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. We're going to go to the phones now, and speak with Alex in Washington, who's listening with station WPFW. Welcome to PowerPoint. Hi, okay. Unfortunately, a lot of the problems that exist in Sierra Leone today started in the early 70s with the election of Shakistee which then became a dictator. A lot of us early student graduates at that time favored the old parliamentary rule where we respected democracy. A lot of the people didn't, and this is the result of it. We had to respect the

principles of democracy, which we need. We also need to have free elementary education to educate young people. A lot of the uneducated ones are the rebels today that we have to fight. So have a serious problem. Thank you so much for bringing that to the table the best of you in Washington. Dr. Nguyen, the question of one person, one vote, one time is a kind of sick joke you hear from some westerners about elections in Africa. How much of a legacy, how much of a problem is this to overcome? Well, I think there is a second wave of democratization in Africa. Now, I'm not that very optimistic that the second wave is going to be very successful, but there are success stories across the continent with regard to rolling back the carpet of one party dictatorships. I think the Sierra Leone experience is one experience. It's up to the Sierra Leoneans to work hard and create a democracy. There are forces now in Sierra Leone who support the revolutionary united front that is fighting

against the government, the rough, they call themselves. Now, what has to happen really is if you have a democratic order in Sierra Leone, as in some of the other countries where democracy is being experimented with, you now have to deal with the internal problems. Many of these societies have ethnic problems, real or imagine, they're there, the problem of underdevelopment. So, the one party dictatorship idea is not a winning proposition any more in Africa. I'd like to add to that, if you don't mind. Of course, Ambassador Leone. You know, Sierra Leone has demonstrated the people of Sierra Leone have demonstrated that they believe in the principles of democracy. Military James were revolving down in Sierra Leone for a long time. Finally, the people stood up on their own, led by women. They went to the streets and demonstrated and removed the military. With international support, we have free and fear elections. A five -party parliament was elected and the president was elected. And when the military came about and removed the civilian government, the civilian voters held their ground, had

a civil disobedience campaign for 10 months, and it didn't give up one day until and unless the elected government was restored to power. The very first time an elected government has been elected to power in Africa and removing the military dictatorship. It has never happened anywhere before except in Sierra Leone. These shows that the foundation for democracy exists in the minds of the people. And I think it's a good example for the world that if you want democracy, you have to fight for it and if you fight for it, you're going to get it. What is happening in Sierra Leone is not Sierra Leone. It's from outside. Let's go back to the phones and speak with Amika and Philadelphia who's listening at station W -H -Y -Y. Welcome to PowerPoint. Yes. Kenneth, excellent show. How are you? Thank you. My question goes particularly to Professor Slimy Yang, who was, I took a course suite to my early days at Howard and my doctoral program. To what extent is the legacy, the current problem in Sierra Leone, the legacy of colonialism that we're professor in Yang particularly?

I'll hang up on listen. Okay, thanks Amika, the best of you in Philadelphia. Yeah, I would say that, well, thank you, and I remember one of my students again. What I would say really is that the problem in Sierra Leone, like in most other African countries, is to some extent linked to the colonial past. But we cannot beat the colonial horse anymore because colonialism died over 30 years ago. The Africans have to really now own up and they have to be responsible. Two points I would say quickly. One is that Sierra Leone has elected their own democratic government. Now, if that democratic government wishes to deal with any kind of opposition, it has to deal with that opposition by mobilizing the Sierra Leone masses. Now, if you have forces that are coming from outside, that external force has to be identified whether it has genuine Sierra Leone opposition in them. And if you have genuine Sierra Leone people who are dissatisfied, then the government would have to negotiate with those forces. But

if, as the ambassador is saying, the majority of those people are really renegades soldiers, child soldiers, from neighboring Liberia, then you have an international problem. It's not a domestic problem for Sierra Leone. It is now a problem between the Liberian leadership and the Sierra Leone leadership. Where's the doors at all? Are there governments implicated in any of this turmoil? Where's the governments? No. The African ones, yes. We think African governments, yes. But just to go back, actually, I just want to go back a few more, like a couple decades, when we're talking about the democracy. The democracy has always been in Sierra Leone. I mean, we enjoyed the democracy under the first Prime Minister, pro -independence. You know, Sierra Leone was a peaceful country, people voted. The reason why Shaka Stephen survived and became president was because the person who he ousted believed in democracy. And that was the late Saba Magui. Because if Saba Magui had wanted to, he tried to table a one -party motion and he lost and he accepted that. Okay? But if he had decided not to accept it, Shaka Stevens would not have arrived on the scene. But my main point is that I really,

at the point, we used to enjoy this democracy where people would vote. But I feel that the problem lay really with the elites, the intellectuals. They were the ones that abandoned the country, fled, left the country in the hands of Stevens. And Stevens used thuggery and brutal violence to cow everybody. And it is this brutal violence now that is coming around, which he sowed. It is coming around now to bite us back. You like this? We're all left. I'm a guilty of that too. We are all left in 70s. We all left. We ran away from greener pastures. And we left the poor innocent people at this man's mercy. And what did he do for 30 years? He had his thugs. And he had these makeshift elections, you know, just to perpetuate his power. And now these same people were the ones that left the country with the help of foreign countries within Africa to come back and fight him. Unfortunately. This brain drain, Dr. Nguyen. Yeah. Chad, everyone. Chad? Yeah. Is this

brain drain a real problem in several countries? Yeah. You see, the brain drain is a very complex problem. But it is largely due to the political and economic crises in African society. That's correct, sir. And it must be addressed that way. I mean, while we are addressing this early on question, we have to recognize the fact that the one party solution was widely celebrated by African intellectuals. Because they felt that this was the way to avoid tribalism, ethnic conflict, religious conflict in their societies. People like Kwamin Krumah, Sekuturi, Nyerere, Kavunda, all of those African leaders who are widely celebrated in the diaspora put forward this kind of solution. But as we now know, the one party system was a sham. And it was not democratic. And it was also the source of corruption in many of these African societies. We have to own up to these realities. You told, when you met with my producer and I, earlier Chad, a story about the soldiers in the cemetery.

Share that with our listeners, please. Well, it was August the 18th, actually. August the 18th was a day that the students decided that we're going to demonstrate against the government. And for weeks before they'd been talking about it on the radio, well, not on the radio, just passing leaflets around. And the government had been warning them not to do that. They wanted to show us support. What did the government mean to the regime? Well, the regime. So the hunter. Yes, the hunter. Okay. And anyway, finally, August the 18th arrived. And all these kids just started trying to assemble. But because the hunter felt they didn't, you know, basically their strategy was just simply this. They were not going to shoot anybody. So they gave out to two, three thousand of their supporters or soldiers or rebels or whatever they call themselves. Brand new machetes, you know, cutlasses to hack people to death. And these guys just went around the city

streets looking for anybody that looked young. If you wore jeans, that was the criteria. You know, they didn't want to know whether you, you know, what, whatever you worked or not. But if you look young or you wore jeans or you look like a student, they'll take you away. They'll took away girls. They took away boys. And there's a cemetery on Kiseer Road at the junction where they took two guys, where they hacked them, which I saw for myself. And where they slipped one guy's chest open and took out his heart and proceeded to eat it. We're talking with Mr. Chad Baylor Cawker, a survivor and witness of the murder and mayhem in Sierra Leone, the ambassador of Sierra Leone, Ambassador John Lee, and Professor Suleiman Yang, who is with the Department of African Studies in Howard University. The PowerPoint hotline is 1 -800 -989 -8255. We're going to go to the phones now and speak with Fanon and Houston, who's listening through station KTSU. Welcome to PowerPoint, Fanon. Good to hear you talking about some

African issues, real, real African issues. My question is, and I heard the good doctor going into it, so I'm talking about Kwame and Krumah. And I'm so happy to hear somebody mentioning him. But what happened to that concept of African American, West African unity and the organization of African states? What impact do they have on what's going on Sierra Leone? And how much do you think this solution is around economics, keeping some kind of a way having an economic program for that whole reason, not just Sierra Leone, but the whole region? Well, I would say that the idea of Kwame and Krumah, and then this was in his student days when he was in America, but then later on he elaborated and called for a continental union. One of the programs he pointed the Africans to implement was the African high command. Of course, that would have, that presupposed the coming together of all these African countries

with the intention of having a military force that would deal with any kind of emergencies across the continent. Now, unfortunately, Africans have not been able to carry that out. The ECOMOC is something close to that kind of concept in the sense that the ECOMOC becomes the military arm of the West African economic community. So, the ECOMOC is playing upon African fire brigade role in Sierra Leone and in Liberia. Now, there are forces who are opposed to the ECOMOC because they feel that the ECOMOC is being used by Nigeria and from all the West African states to keep a regime in power in Sierra Leone. And those people who are opposed to the democratically elected government of President Kaba feel that ECOMOC is the only force behind the regime. And of course, using these tactics and the strategies developed in Liberia, they are hoping that they could pressurize the Nigerians to such an extent that they will back out. And then this way, the regime in Sierra Leone

will not be strong enough to drive them away. That is the situation you have in Sierra Leone. Let's go back to the phones now and speak with Dean in Fayetteville, North Carolina, who's listening through station WFSS. Welcome to PowerPoint, Dean. Sure, I appreciate you answering my question. Please forgive my ignorance, gentlemen, on this nice evening about the subject. I just have a question. Since so many months have involved since the beginning of this whole affair, I was just curious, what types of involvement, if any, has there been, by international organizations, say, for example, like the UN or Amnesty International or Doctors Without Borders, etc., and how, if at all, has the UN help Sierra Leone's situation, especially in view of Liberia's potential involvement? Ambassador, that's an excellent question. We get all the time news reports and problems and movement in the UN and the Bosnians and the Croatians and the Chechnis. What's going on? Why are you falling through the cracks here? No, when I'm falling through the cracks over here, we've got

substantial international support. The United Government, Sierra Leone, has substantial American support, United Kingdom, Commonwealth support and support from the European Union and, of course, from the West African States and from the Organization of African Unity. As is the government recognized by the entire world, by the United Nations. The United Nations passed resolution 1146 in November last year to bring peace to Sierra Leone and to ask the rebels to get out and to stop the fighting and to ask neighboring countries to stop interference in Sierra Leone affairs. The United States government is supporting ECOMOC financially in Sierra Leone and we are asking for an increase in support for the coming year. The West African nations have about 10 to 15 ,000 troops in Sierra Leone to keep out the rebels. So there's support there, not as much as Bosnia and other countries. What we're looking for right now is for international support to find evidence against those perpetrating terrorism in Sierra Leone, so we can prosecute them according to international law. There'll be the next phase, an international criminal court to prosecute those conducting the carnage in Sierra Leone.

Okay, thank you, Dean, for bringing that to the table, the best of you in Fayetteville. Let's talk to Jeff, he's in Columbia, South Carolina, and listening through station WLTR. Welcome to PowerPoint, Jeff. Hello. Welcome to PowerPoint. Yes, thank you. This question is for the professor. Do you believe the situation currently happening in West Africa is beginning to now flow to the southern part of Africa, where certain governments are beginning to buy arms from Eastern European powers? And also, will we begin to see more destabilization efforts by African countries involved in the affairs of other African nations? Good question, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it to the table. Well, Jeff, this is what is happening. I mean, the crisis in West Africa is really going in tandem with crisis in the Horn of Africa, Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia. It's also going in tandem with crisis in Central Africa. The Great Lakes, as we call them, Rwanda, Burundi, Congo,

Brazil. What is happening, a new phenomena is happening. During the Cold War, Africans became surrogates of one or the other of the superpowers and their allies. In the post -Cold War era, what is now beginning to develop in Africa is that neighboring African states, or even distant neighbors, are beginning to interfere in the political affairs of other African countries. And, of course, there are economic, as well as political reasons for this intervention. If you look at the Congo, for example, one of the criticisms now directed against Zimbabwe by the opposition forces in Congo is that the government of President Mugabe is involved in the Congo situation, not only because of ideological or political sympathies with Kabila, but because his brother is part of the people running their minds in Congo. And, of course, his brother has a diamond deal. Yes. So, I mean, this begins to really create problems because what is happening

now is neighboring countries are interfering in the political affairs of others because this is part of what the Marxists used to call primitive accumulation of the African elites. They want to now accumulate by going into neighboring countries that are destabilized and get rich as quickly as possible from their misfortune. Just after that, that's one of the reasons that we find that our war is not ending because most of the fighting that is taking place now is no longer in the cities. It is in the diamond rich area of Kono. And, as we asked earlier on in the program, this is where the rebels are concentrated. They want to mind these diamonds. Well, whoever their masters are, I don't know, but pretty sure the ambassador and the government have enough evidence of where those diamonds are going to. Because in the 10 months alone, I believe there was $160 million worth of diamonds. Now, go now. Yeah. I'd like to add to what Charlie's saying over here. The war in Sierra Leone is fundamentally a resource war. Unfortunately for nibbles, they don't have anything. God put all the value inside Sierra Leone, gold, diamond, platinum, road tile. Everything in Sierra Leone, I'm not in neighboring country, box site. And so,

the nibbles are begrudging that and they want to access it. Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for bringing that to the table, the best to you in Colombia. Once again, our focus is murder and mayhem in Sierra Leone, the final ambassador's round table of 1998 for PowerPoint. 1 -800 -989 -8255. We're coming up on 49 -40 -48 minutes, 30 seconds into the hour. We'll continue in a moment. Here's what's coming your way next week on PowerPoint. During our final program of 1998, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee joins us to look back at events leading up to the impeachment of President Clinton and to look ahead to a possible Senate trial in 1999. We also invite you to attend PowerPoint's second annual crystal ball with Essence magazine astrologer Ayesha Grace. Join us. This is Public Radio and you're listening to PowerPoint. Our program will continue in just a moment. We'll

Welcome back to PowerPoint. I'm Kenneth Walker. Before the break, Dr. Nguyen and Ambassador Lee, you're talking about the increased willingness since the end of the cold war of various African nations.

With the international conferences

To deal with their national charters. In the case of Saralyuk and there's a democratic process, And the government has to towelsmaintr against control In order to really mine the resources. So the resources that are going to be mine by external forces. and supporting this so -called rebel activity. Excuse me, we are self -incylion. We elected people of salion after being the ones taking care of our resources, together with our friends in around the world. If we don't do it, nobody will do it for us. The thing that is terrible in salion is that these resources are too fungible, cold and damn -on, high -value, high -potability. So it's easy to corrupt the people of the country to access them. That's a difficulty. Unless we're coming with a good mining policy, a good policy to manage our natural resources, it'll be free for all every shyster in the world. Has been to salion trying to rip off

the land. Let's take one more call from Mukhtaru, I believe, is how it's pronounced in Columbia, South Carolina, who's listening through station WLTR. Welcome to PowerPoint. Yes. Good evening. Thank you for letting me through. I wanted to ask the ambassador in particular, I'm a serial alien and I'm very concerned. I try to keep up as much as possible with what's going on there. I wanted to just ask if he really thinks that it's possible to solve this problem militarily because it's been a long time now since we've been pursuing the rebels. I feel like a lot of the effort that's been spent at the developed country now will be for not if this problem of the rebel war is not solved one way or the other. I mean, are they taking any steps to approach, to bring about or to talk about

diplomatic solutions, to just to bring about a finality as far as the war is concerned? Thank you for your question. Again, we have always wanted to talk to resolve this issue, but the opposition does you want to talk. What they want to do right now is for us to forgive all their crimes and bring it into the government. They want me to request, but we sit down and look, I say, what can a possible agreement to solve this problem look like? I don't see it. It's like you have a very powerful mafia in America. How are you going to settle the mafia? Are you going to bring them to the government and give them rights? Or are you going to use police methods and get rid of them? Their demands are incompatible with the existence of a modern state. They want to be able to act lawlessly, to throw it in natural resources, to consume the whole thing and to kill and have people to death. We have a difficulty in our hands. And the way to approach this thing to solve it is number one, to make sure that it's not falling interference in the land.

If there's no falling, if you don't have troops or neighboring countries coming in, if no arms and animation coming from abroad, I believe silence can solve this problem. It is the neighbor. So we have to use international means, the United Nations, to put an end to that interference. And that is done. The vast majority of the EU, 95 % of the EU wants a democratic system. If they want to write the rules or elections, we're willing to do that. We're willing to talk. Let them tell us what they want to talk about. Look, Tara, thanks you so much for the call and the best of you in Colombia. Chad, you're going back to Sierra Leone next week. I got to ask you, why? Because I have a stake there. For me, I can make a difference and I need to go back. Country needs a lot of help and we need to move forward, as the ambassador says. You know, Sierra Leone wants this thing to be finished with. These are our brothers and our sisters,

but you cannot even the most loving father will not sit by and see his young son hacking his other son to death all the time without coming in. We have opened our arms to these people for so long and they have mistreated us. That comes a point in time where, you know, enough is enough and for us and the majority of us enough is enough. We've had enough. I want to thank Mr. Chad Baylor Cawker, a survivor and witness to the murder and mayhem in Sierra Leone, Professor Suleiman Yang, with the Department of African Studies in Howard University and, of course, Ambassador John Lee from the Embassy of Sierra Leone for joining us on PowerPoint's final 1998 edition of the Ambassadors Roundtable. This has been PowerPoint. I'm Kenneth Walker. If you would like a tape or transcript of this or any past edition of PowerPoint or to make listener comments or program suggestions, please call PowerPoint toll free at 1

-888 -682 -6500. That's 1 -888 -682 -6500. The creators of PowerPoint include senior producer Tony Regusters, producer director Debbie Williams, news anchor Verna Avery Brown, and associate producer Tom Woodwood. PowerPoint's phone producer is Kay Marshall. Our broadcast production assistant is Eric Lewis. PowerPoint's NPR broadcast technical director is Neil Tevolte. Legal affairs for PowerPoint are handled by Pia Dora Brown. Our program announcer is Candie Shannon. PowerPoint's theme is from the CDF stops by Craig Harris. The executive producer is Reggie Hicks. I'm Kenneth Walker. Thanks for listening. PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting's Radio Program Fund. This is PowerPoint, a production of Hicks and Associates.