The Rochester I Know; 415; Carol Sibley Wolfe

Music Intro. Music Intro. She was born into a family whose impact on Rochester has been felt for generations. Her interest in helping people was encouraged at a young age by both words and example. After she returned from college she participated in and helped establish many organizations. Among these has been her work for the Rochester General Hospital where she helped form one of the first aggressive care centers for premature infants. Today Bill Pearce talks with Carol Sibley Wolfe about the Rochester she knows. Hi welcome to the Rochester I Know I'm Bill Pierce. My guest today is

Carol Sibley Wolfe whose had - Carol you've had a fascinating career here in Rochester and a family history that's just incredible. And I want to get started right away. Your dad was was was a Sibley. Yes that's right. And Rufus. No my father was John Russell. John Russell Sibley and my grandfather was Rufus Adams. Now was your grandfather Rufus Adams Sibley interested in dry goods or department stores? Well it was quite an interesting story because he grew up he was born and grew up in a very small town about nine miles west of Worcester. where his family had been for generations - Worcester Massachusetts I'm sorry. Yeah. And I mean what's the name of the town that is Spencer Spencer alright. And he was headed for Harvard College but went to Boston a little early to get a job and get some money. [host] Now this is your dad? [guest] This is my grandfather Rufus [host] your grandfather

Rufus, OK [guest] and so he entered into a small dry goods firm and there he met Alexander Lindsay who had come from Scotland and they were two young men working in this shop and decided they would go out on their own to western out west and give up ideas of college. And their employer was a very farsighted man and so he gave them backing and letters of introduction and credit to come out West to Rochester New York and set up their own dry goods company [host] This is Lindsay and this Sibley [guest] Alexander Lindsay and Rufus Adams Sibley, [host] Now how old are they at this point? Well, I would say maybe 20 at the most. Two 20 year olds now pack up. up and now they don't pack up and go over the Berkshire Mountains and come way out west. Way out west, to Rochester. Well they sort of scouted the area and they thought Rochester would be a very good place to start a store because it was at the crossroads

of the West. uh-huh. Well this] [unintelligible] [this was kind of a gateway to the west at the time.] [guest] it was] [host] now this uh is this is um John Lindsay. Or, no, I beg your pardon. [It's John Sibley.] [Yes.] [And uh Lindsay whatever] [Alvin] Alexander Lindsay. Now where does Curr come in? Because we always remember the story as Sibley, Lindsay & Curr. and Curr][and Curr] [Well, (?) Mr. Curr is a puzzle because my father always told me that he was a bachelor. Al who was only with the store a few years. He was probably brought in because the store grew very rapidly and was quite successful almost from the beginning because they had one price for everything. It used to be that you'd bargain but they had a fixed price for a bolt of material and that's what you paid. So, but so the business grew very fast and they needed help and Mr. Kerr came. And then he bought into it. But then a few years later he left and I have always been told that he

left without family] [ hm hm] [that he'd never married but I Mr. William E. Lee who was president of Sibley's tells me I was wrong. So I don't know (laughs) I don't know which one of us is right. Well now uh So we don't know really what happened] [No. He went out w-] [to Mr. Curr.] [He went out west. further West.] [Further west] [And Mr. Lindsay?] [ Oh Mr. Lindsay - his family is still here.] [hm hm] [He had six children and I wouldn't even guess how many grandchildren and there uh a lot of them are still here.] All right now, your father John Sibley is here in Rochester. Are you born here?] [I was born here at Genesee Hospital.] [hm hm where eh [Same place it is now on Alexander Street?] [Right, Same Place, mm-hmm.] And wh- uh... You lived where?] [I lived in Massachusetts. But at that time my mother who grew up in Rochester felt that she must come home and have her babies near her own mother. This apparently was done and at that time this was 1923. My brother also was born here. And of course no one knew

what the doctors were like in Massachusetts.] [mm hmm] [So she came here and and had my brother and me. And then after a few months we all went back to Spencer again.] [Was your mother's family from Rochester?] [Yes they were, mm-hmm.] [And uh where were they from originally?] [guest] Well, I don't know how much you want me to run on.[both laugh] [My my one of my mother's ancestors was known as the fir- Mr Thomas Chittenden, and he was known as the first and worst governor of Vermont. And that's because the reason he was the worst according to family legend was because he drank Applejack with Ethan Allen and rode to unintelligible against the British. [The leader of the Green Mountain Boys.] [Boys, Right. Right but he drank Applejack.] [host] Wow pretty pretty sinful in those days.] [guest] Yeah that was back ... So my fa- her family came from the New England area also.] [mm hmm [host] So your dad met your mother right here in Rochester] [right here in Rochester] like I said before. You were born here but then what?]

Go back to] [guest] Massachusetts for about eight years] [host]and then you and then you come back?] [guest]and then we come back because my father who, although he had his own successful business in Massachusetts was asked to come back and run Sibley, Lindsay and Curr because there was no one- no family member otherwise who has] [host]Now, wait a minute your dad comes here and starts a-a dry goods business] [guest]My grandfather] [host] grandfather] [guest] yeah] [host]but Dad wasn't interested.[guest] No] [host]He's interested in the business] [guest] In his farm] in the farm, and what kind of a farm was that?] [guest]It was a Jersey uh ca- uh] Jersey a herd of Jersey cattle and it he uh had developed it into 350 head, one of the finest in the country and he established not only dairies, one of the first Automatic milking machine dairies. And he also established a group of restaurants before Howard Johnson's was invented,] [hm hm] but had to give unintelligible.] [What were what were they called the resta-?] [Sibley... Sibley Farms ][Sibley Farms] [Dairy hm hm.[yeah] [And but they had to be given up in 1941

after the war. Because there was no motor, no one could travel by car.] [host] Now, your dad comes back from Spencer, leaves the farm?] [guest] Well, he had to he had to run the farm long distance when there weren't any airplanes, faxes or anything else and it's 350 miles from Rochester] [host] So he's back here running Si-, [guest] Sibley Lindsay and Curr [host] Department store full time] [hm hm] and running a farm in Massachusetts] [guest] That's right] [host] and where do you -[he laughs] [she laughes] Where do you land?] [she laughs [guest] We land here (laughs) and we spend summers there.] [Oh] [So I really feel myself] [summers on the farm] [yeah] when [wonderful] you're part New Englander] [yeah] [part west] [part west westerner] [Yeah, right, westerner] [ Now, you're growing, you're back here, you're about what eight years old?] I'm about unintelligible. I'm I'm almost 8 now.] [Yeah. Now, where'd you go to school?] [ I went to Harley school] [uh huh f-for how long?] [Um, abo- [About six years I think or seven years][Yeah. Now, what you remember about the neighborhood then? You you obviously didn't grow up in a poor neighborhood] [ No I] [mhm] And uh I grew up in what was then known as the Barnard tract] [uh huh] [and that's

kind of interesting that's the Sandringham, Ambassador Drive area ][hm hm] [but some but it was started as the Barnard Tract but they never completed all of the houses that they planned to build because of the Depression.] [hm hm] [Now you see we're talking about 1931 which] [hm hm ah] [is when I came back. So, ] [That's when the depression was really beginning to take hold] [that's when really unintelligible So, a lot of the Barnard Tract never got developed. It was just streets] [hm hm] wi- with entrances for driveways and then nothing there.] [It didn't go anywhere] [It just went up to the sidewalk and then the driveway stopped and the same thing was true over where es- uh- where Council Rock and Grosvenor Road and all of those on the other side of Clover Street] [uh huh, uh huh] that was the whole tract and it never got developed, and of course we went over there and roller skated and did all bicycled and when we were learning to drive we went over there and practiced you know, because it was all empty.

There were no houses.] [All that territory to yourselves.] [Everything was paved and the driveways went up and there wasn't anything there.] [What a children's paradise] [yeah it was a children's paradise] [what else do you remember about the city then and unintelligible.] [Oh, the city] [This is You're in Brighton then aren't you?] [I was living in Brighton.] [hm hm] [There's an awful lot and I don't know how to limit it. Um One of the things that was truly outstanding of course everybody knows was what were our trees.] [hm hm] And going down East Avenue the elms really curved over all of East Avenue. It was perfectly beautiful. It was really an outstanding entrance to the city you could not find anything more beautiful and of course everything was well cared for because we had people here who were interested in in trees and all of parks and all that] [and unintelligible Ellwanger Barry Ellwanger and then uh you know Frederic um Church,er the landscape artist planner. But also of course at that time the houses were still there there but they were all lived in (hm em) and you still ah

The cars cars had come in but there are still horses too, (hm em) and also there was there were there are a few electric cars which were kind of fun you know they went chug chugging along (laughs) about 10 miles an hour I think. So it was a very beautiful city] [yeah] [and a very beautiful entrance and I remember Clover Street too because when I when we came back to Rochester in 1947, Clover Street too had those overhanging trees all the [the elms] [they're all along] [and the elms, and then of course the road itself was about this big big you know less than two lanes and th- and so so it was quite a difference when I came back to see the changes that had happened. [th- to coming back when? at at] [ in 1947] [Now this[ ['47] [this is 47.][ [All of 47. [This is after after college] [yeah, and I after I was married and then uh my husband came back to work for the Times-Union and so ah

[ So now wait a minute. Jumping ahead a little bit 'cause I want to know who you grew up with. Who were some of the ] [oh] people in the community.] [oh] Oh sure, we had a wa it was a really oh, I was very privileged. We had such a good time and such friends. (Sighs) Where to begin. (Soft laughter) Some still live here. Uh Tom Hargrave is still here with his ri- wife Rooney McKelvey Hargrave. We grew up with all of the Hargraves on Clover Street and all of the Middletons on Clover Street and it was quite a neighborhood gang and behind our house] [ Is that what you called yourselves, the neighborhood gang?] [No (he laughs) we were just well I don't know, but oh we had a little newspaper that we put out in the back of the Hargraves' house behind us on um Ambassador Drive was uh Sally Gannett and the whole Gannett family. They uh] [Was this the Frank Gannett -nett.?] [yes this was the Frank Gannett unintelligible] [ Oh did Gannett Rochester newspapers, right? What was he like? like Frank Gannett?] [Well, we children we didn't see very much

of him he was um very shall we say private person] [All biz business maybe] [and not too much. I And of course his wife Kerry was one of the Werner sisters and she was full of [Werner] Werner. Oh Werner uh ha and she was she and Clay Clayla Ward were sisters] [oh!] [and um Mrs. Townsend and um they were very lively people! [Well that was that was kind of ] [and so Kerry] [the social set of] [Yeah Kerry was a very live lively person and we were all puzzled] [This is Kerry Gannett, the wife of [Keery] [Keery] [ the wife of Frank Gannett] [Frank Gannett] and his daughter Sally. I don't know. I think she was threatened to be thrown out of school. I don't know how many times she was a live wire.] [Yeah] [She was a year older than I] [Certainly didn't take after her dad] [No way!] [Laughs] But she took after the other side of the family (both laugh) and I remember being astou- Of course their house was huge and I remember being astounded as a little girl to go in and find that she owned 42 pairs of shoes.

I couldn't imagine someone 10 years old owning 42 pairs of shoes. But we had a won- we had a wonderful gang. Betty um Crouch Hargrave lived next door and Tom Remington, now they were related to the Ryder family. But you see there was a whole group of us, there must have been 20 of us. Jane Thompson Southgate, Mr. Raymond Thompson was treasurer of the University. He lived across the street from us and had 2 daughters. And um Mr. Raymond Ball who was President of Lincoln Rochester lived up Elmwood Hill Lane. Mr. and Mrs. McCurdy lived up Elmwood Hill Lane with Patty [Now is this Gil McCurdy who] [yeah and young Gil and Pat McCurdy Morse lived there, so you can see we unintelligible then we had all Hargraves, then we had (laughs) um ev- You know a huge. Oh David Kearns lived um near next to the Har-] [former C CEO.]

[Yeah of] [of Xerox Corporation?] Yeah, lovely family. And they lived next to Mrs. Gannett and the Sieberts lived across the street. I mean it was there were really probably 30, more kids I I don't know.] [yeah] [We had a wonderful time.] Now you leave. uh You went to Harley what through] [til] [seventh] [ the ninth grade.] [9th grade? and then where what did you do?] [ Then I went to boarding school where my mother had gone.] [Ah So the family followed a family tradition there] [That's right.] [Was it a happy occasion or not ?] [Well, more or less or less. (both laugh)] [unintelligible] I learned enough to get into college ] [ah, well] and I made some good good friends. So, that's all you can ask for.] [ So then you went on to college][ I went to Smith in North Hampton [Smith in Northampton,] [Northampton, Mass. going home] [ah, ] [to my own home] [so you're back in your own territory] [yeah] [ near not far from Spencer unintelligible] [no] [just down the road] [right] little further west west of Spencer] [hm hm] as a matter of fact] [40 miles to be exact.] [Yeah, year, Now, they still call that place Happy Valley today?] [Laughter] [Smith] [unintelligible] Yeah yeah well Mount Holyoke, [yeah yeah] Amherst unintelligible New Hampshire is started] [ New Hampshire is started} and Univ- University of Massachusetts] [U Mass] has been been very successful there[Lovely lovely area]

[Now you're at Smith] [uh huh] taking uh courses] [uh yes, uh huh and] [I- I majored in in history] [in history? American or just world history?] [general history] [host] general history? and now this is World War II is about ready to start. Now where how did. (C.S.)[It started] What do you do during these years?] [C.S.] Well, we heard about World War II at my family's house in Spencer, Massachusetts on a Sunday afternoon December 6, 1941.] [hm hm] My brother was there my future husband was there and it was really quite a moment. So the 2 young men] [I think it was the 7th do you think (Laughter)] [C.S.] I'm sorry. How could unintelligible Well, that's my age] [Laughs] [Host]We all have we all have those little misgivings. December 7th [C.S.] So if that's all I forget [Host] Yeah Yeah.[C.S.]I'm lucky I think.[Host] So what were you all talking about? [sitting around?] [C.S.]We were listening to The New York Philharmonica on the radio and they broke in.] [Host] hm. [C.S.] And so the 2 men went off to war

war and I went back ah you know unintelligible in that spring and went into uh specialized training program: language and I went back to college and got married in 1943 and] [Host] This is during the war and] [C.S.]during the war and then when Andy went overseas,] [Host] He's your husband.] [C.S.]my husband I went back to college and got my degree in 1945. I had accelerated.] [Host]Now you're a married student going back] [C.S.]yeah. [to Smith.] [C.S.]I was I was one of the first 2 married students [Host] Really] [C.S.]to be allowed to live in a dormitory at Smith College. Doesn't that sound way out [a little, yes.] [now?] [A little antiquated. I think after the war it kind of broke wide open] [C.S.]wide open, yeah] [Host]There was married student housing all over the place.] [yeah, uh huh] But you were] [but I was a unintelligible] [a front runner.] Him and I were the first yeah] [Host]Now that's marvelous. Now did you out of college did you did you go to work or] [C.S.]I was gonna go and work for the CIA. I had a job but they sent me a telegram 2 pages. We all thought that was outrageous to send a 2-page telegram when a letter would do

to tell me that I was not gonna to work for them.] [Host]This is CIA in Washington?] [she laughs yeah hm hm] [Really!] I was gonna make maps.] [Ah] [And ah so I did part time and volunteer jobs because the war was over.] [Now, are you back in Rochester?] [ No, I'm still in Massachusetts] [You're still in Massachusetts.[C.S.] Yeah, yeah.[Host] Now, when do you come back to Rochester?] [C.S.]Not until '47] [1947] [Uh huh. Andy went back to college on the G.I. Bill and got his bachelor's and his master's and then we came back here.] [Now, what do you do when you come back to Rochester?] [C.S.]Well [Host]And what's it like now you've been away a few years] [Well, of course a lot of my friends are still here. Like I hadn't mentioned people like Nancy Hallower who's Nancy Johnson now and a whole lot of others and course they were still- Ann Hale you know and Bill Hale] [Host]Nancy Hallauer Now, that would be Carl Hallauer's] [C.S.]Hallauer's daughter? um hm [Host]and he the head of what?] it was [C.S.]Bausch and Lomb.] [Host]Bausch & Lomb, hm hm, hm hm] [C.S.]So that a lot of them were] [Host]You traveled in pretty heady company, Carol] [C.S.] Yes. I did [laughs] look at me now.]

[But um so there were a lot I had a lot of fun. And then our Smith College group was very active here. We had 250 members and we were a very busy group and so you know you, your horizons expand all the time. [Host]You mentioned at the beginning of this program and in that opening that how much how much volunteer work you've done in this community and it just amazes me at how long you've been at it and you're still at] [laughs] [C.S.] I'm still at it] [Host]Now now, as you as you've worked in these with these various agencies and hospitals over the years, what's been the most satisfying?] [Bill, you should have clued me into this question.[laughs] [laughs] [Well, let's] [C.S.]I don't know] [Let's enumerate some of the places that you have] [C.S.] Well. [Host] that you have volunteered.] [It's awfully hard to say because everything] [yeah] [It's all been satisfying] [you know it's I don't want to single one out] [I really I've I've been given more opportunities I've been thinking a lot about this. But you see that I had a lot of opportunities that at that time to to accomplish things that women at that time didn't have in the professional world because in those days women really

weren't as professional. They were expected to work only until they got married and or had a family. [Host] Um hm. [C.S.]So that I was I was privileged to help] [Host] But you think you think] [C.S.]to create a number of things that that because I had the time and it was the way things were done then] [Host] Hm hm Now, we've changed considerably.] [Yes we have.] [Host]For women. Now what do you think of the change? [I I really think the change is wonderful to give people women who have a real bent for medicine or law or science or anything to give them an opportunity. I think I think being the young woman today and being employed is and bringing up a family to me is just awesome. I can't I can't I can't ] [imagine] [imagine how they can do it.] [Now, you're very active at Rochester General Hospital] [C.S.] That's right. [Host] You were a pioneer over there. in some of those activities] [Well, I was, I helped but I didn't I didn't originate. I we helped helped with the premature Rochester Regional Pre-mature Center.] [Host] hm hm. [We ran that

with about um 20 volunteers a week in clinics and in the center itself doing secretarial jobs to free the nurses up for other jobs that was... Dr. Ted Townsend was the originator of that, and uh that was of wonderful.] [When you first started uh volunteering in hospitals there were no women on hospital boards?] [C.S.]Well, there were women's auxiliaries [Host]hm mm [C.S.]but um who had had their own little niche [Host] Hm hm. [C.S.]usually running ca- uh you know shops and doing that kind of thing. I applied For at a numb at Genesee Hospital because I had been born there and could not volunteer there] [mhm] [as the way I wanted to, the way I had done at Mass General and things like that. But um so I went to Rochester General and there you see they were using women all the time. We were at the hospital was founded by women. They like women, they give us a lot of responsibility, and so I

worked very closely with that for. 45 years.] [And you're still doing it] [I'm still doing it] [Yeah, that's wonderful it's wonderful. You grew up in a tradition of giving back to the community] [That's right] [Did you did you inherit that from your parents?] [C.S.]My family you know. [Host]What ,did they give you instructions? [No. laughs.No It's just the way they behaved.] [Host]Yeah. So They felt and I felt I was so lucky with my family and the way I was brought up that if you're given something you should try to give it back.] [And you spent your life doing that.] [laughs] [C.S.] Well, Well] [Now, one of the other organizations that I recall you were engaged in and I don't know if you still are, is the RAUN the Rochester] [No, I'm not any-But that was Ann Hale, Ann Hale Johnson who got me into that that because she was a Smith classmate of mine, so when I came back to Rochester she said you've got to help us out. We're getting this started and Dexter Perkins and all this] [Host]Yeah. Dexter Perkins. Now, you're name dropping] [C.S.] Yeah. [Host] You have to make sure people know who Dexter Perkins was.] [C.S.]He was a legendary professor of history at the University of Rochester and his wife was a fabulous

cook who carried on the Fanny Farmer Cookbook. And and when you were invited to their house you were in for either a treat or a treatment. [laughs] I don't know. But usually it was a treat because she was a fabulous cook and she tried out all the recipes. So it was quite an unusual family, but he was a professor at the University and head of the department and all that, you know. You know] [Host]One of the other activities that I recalled, I'm not sure if you're still a- active is that is this activity to help um a Smith College students uh,] [oh yes. the tour of houses] [Host] the tour of houses] [yes.][ How does, how does How does that work, and and is it still going on?] [ oh yes of course it's still going on. It was started in 1950 by Marion Whitbeck and Helen Fulton. And I happen to be president of the club at the time (laughs) and so we went gung ho and that was a marvelous idea dear- idea of their idea of theirs and we show houses that are interesting architecturally or historically or

with because of their gardens or uh hobbies or whatever, And uh we have raised I would say close to a million dollars for scholarships. [Host] since 1950] [C.S.]since 1950. [Host]Now, who gets the scholarships? [C.S] Well, when we first started, we didn't have too many Rochester girls applying and so we told the college they could use the scholarship for someone else and then pay us back later when we needed it. Well, now we've got 8 or 9 on scholarship ourselves, so that's wonderful] [Host]Right now as we talk you have 8 or 9] [C.S.] Yeah right now we have 8 or 9 then they may have more for all I know. I haven't gotten a latest update. Well, 8 or 9 on scholarship. Not at Smith. Uh more than that at Smith.] [Now, uh Carol you know looking back, you had a long history here and doing an awful lot of work work. What changes have you seen come about that you like maybe some that you don't like? But what has changed about our neighborhood? This is the Rochester we know know] [Rochester we know] [What's uh.]

You've obviously stayed here because you like it] [Yeah. This uh Rochester has so much to offer in music and art, and education. Of co- of Physically of course the things that have happened is that we've all speeded up and one lane has become two lanes, become three lanes, become four lanes the trees are down, [The beautiful, beautiful elms] [With those beautiful trees. The houses of changed to multi- Family dwellings or um to institutions which isn't I mean it's not bad that kept up the appearance of East Avenue has been kept up and it's] [But Sibley, Lindsay and Curr] your your family started this (unintelligible) there,] [no] [That's thats a disappointment to us all.] [That's hard. I think that's hard for us to think of] [yeah] but um I've been I've been so pleased that so many people have spoken to me about it and what they remembered going down for Santa Claus and the trains going round and round then] [We all loved that] [And the kazoos being played and all of that.You know, it was a tradition]

[Thank you Carol Sibley.] [unintelligible] [Carol Sibley Wolfe] Thank your dad and your grandfather for all the wonderful things you brought to our community. You know] [Oh dear, I think I. . ] been very quick. I'm Bill Pierce. This is The Rochester I know or my guest today has been Carol Sibley Wolfe and we were happy to have you. So long for now. See you next time.] For a VHS copy of this program send $19.95 plus $3.50 shipping and handling to The Rochester I Know Tape Offer. Post Office Box 21

Rochester, New York 14601. Include a note with the name of our guest and the program number shown at the bottom of the screen.