The Rochester I Know; 401; Father Lawrence Tracy

He grew up in a poor working class family. When he was 10 he made money by shining shoes at the Hickock Belt Manufacturing Company and by singing Christmas carols for tips at the company Christmas party. At 14 he decided that he wanted to be a priest in 1966. He got his wish when he was ordained by Bishop Kearney. From that point he has devoted his life to the community he serves and the love of his community has returned tenfold. Today, Bill Pierce talks with Father Lawrence Tracy about the Rochester he knows. I got a story about that too. Welcome to the "Rochester I Know" I'm Bill Pierce. My guest today is Father Lawrence Tracy. Father Tracy, it's really a pleasure for me to have this opportunity to talk to you I've been an admirer of what you've done in this Community for a long time now so. Welcome to you and welcome to a Father Tracy. Thanks very much for joining us. [Host] Your present parish is St. Michael's? [Guest] Well currently, Bill, I am part of a 3 parish cluster called the Community of Hope which includes St. Michael's, Holy Redeemer, St. Francis Xavier and Our Lady of Mount Carmel. So I work equally in the 3 parishes.

[Host] It reminds me of the old circuit riders [Guest] Somewhat so. [Host] Do you look at yourself as a circuit rider? [Guest] [Laughs] It's only 5 minutes between each parish. [Host] But your home base is base St. Michael's? I mean what do you call home? [Guest] Actually, I live at St. Francis and I have my summer office at St. Michael's and my winter office in Mt. Carmel so it. It's [Host] Marvelous. But this is the "Rochester I Know" Father Tracy, so we want to talk about where you came from, where your parents grandparents came from and how you first came to Rochester and how far back do we go in the Tracy Family? [Guest] Well the Tracy Family goes back to the latter part of the last century when my grandmother came over from Ireland and my Irish grandfather came from the Adirondacks and moved to Rochester to be a chemist at Kodak Park in the early part of the century. My mother's family the Selbig Feer Family came here originally in 1840's by canal boats from the York City George Selbig and he moved into the Clinton Avenue neighborhood and we've been there ever since. [Host] Now Selbig[?] is an Irish and Tracy is obviously an Irish name, [Guest] That's right yes. [Host] Now how about Selbig? [Guest] My mother's family

is German so I'm half and half. [Host] So they did they come originally from Germany? [Guest] Yes. George Selbig came to New York City in the 1840s and then traveled as I said by canal boat to Rochester in 1846. [Host] Do you know why? Probably because the economic and political turmoil in ah, I think, Metternich's Germany there was a lot of upheaval then at that time and there were a lot of Germans that migrated to the United States and he was part of that great wave. [Host] What did he do? And when he came here? [Guest] Well I looked over the old City Directory back when he lived in Rochester and he did everything from being a tinker to being a roof replacer and ah they moved around a lot. They were poor working class people and ah never learned English. He lived in the neighborhood for about 53 years and I found his name in the 1900 Census Census. They never spoke English because everybody in the neighborhood was was German speaking. [Host] Marvelous. [Guest] Things change and they don't change. [Laughs] [Host] That's what. Now how about ah your immediate ah grandparents and your parents ah? Where where where did they? Well, they were here

presumably, right. [Guest] Yeah. Oh sure both my my mother's parents were born in Rochester and when I was born we lived in an apartment upstairs over my grandparents on Clifford Avenue: 205. And when I was 5 years old, my father bought a house down the street and that's where I grew up at 127 Clifford near Conky. [Host] Is it still there? [Guest] The house is still there both houses my grandparents house and my parent's house. [Host] What was it like growing-up on Clifford and Conky in 19 ? [Guest] Well, [Host] 1940 you were born, you wouldn't remember. [Guest] The late '40s the 50's is when I grew up it was a pretty much of a melting pot, ah the The old families are still German but there's a lot of other ethnic groups. One of my best friends was Italian and I'll never forget, my grandmother used to tell me, I don't know why you can't pick a better friend than that Italian.[Laughter] It used to offend me because he was a good guy. [Host] Now in in the opening to this program it pointed out that you were a poor you came from a poor family and [Indistinct] how [Guest] the working class [Host] How poor were you?

[Guest] My father was a factory worker and, of course, there were seasonal layoffs and my mother had to work a part time at the Hickock Manufacturing Company right around the corner. She worked the housewife shift at night and ah I mean we weren't dirt poor, but it was a struggle to get by. And um I had to go out and make my own spending money. My father couldn't give me much more than a quarter a week for allowance. [Host] Pretty good 25 cents. [Guest] I guess. It got me into the Saturday matinee movie at the Emperor's Theater on Clinton Avenue. [Host] Really. Long since gone. [Guest] The building's still there it's now the Salvation Army Headquarters on Clinton Avenue. You mentioned a Hickock Manufacturing plant being around the corner; that's one of the that was one of the major industries. [Guest] Sure, sure. [Host] In this community it made those wonderful belts that they used to give to what prizefighters? [Guest] And yes [Host] world sporting champions of someting [Guest] and I had the privilege of watching those belts being made ah when I was about 10 years old I took up shoe shining as a trade and I used to sit outside the Hickock offices and

one day this elegant man came out and said ah, "How'd you like to go inside and shine shoes?" and I said, sure, but they won't let me and he said, Tomorrow you come to the door and you tell him that Ray Hickock said it was OK to go in there." [Host] Really? [Guest] So, I'd go in there every day after school about 3 or 4 o'clock and shined shoes and one of the places I would go through would be ah the place where the artisans were making the belts and I would see the belts being made. [Host] Yeah. Now, do you do you remember what it was like I've never seen one in person. I've only read about [Guest] Quite big. big it was about that big and it had ah jewels in it made of gold. [Host] It was really a passing of an era to see that belt. Oh yeah, yeah. I remember Gil Hodges came through one year and I met Gil Hodges, the baseball player he was the recipient 1 year. [Host] He was Brooklyn Dodgers was it? [Guest] I'm not much of a baseball fan. Someone someone will call in[Laughs] [Host] I'm sure. I think, if I recall. I think it was Gil Hodges. I'm sure I'll be corrected on it. It was some time ago.

Now what was it like growing up the year 1950 you're about 10 years old. Where do you go to school and what do you do? [Guest] I began my formal education at Carthage School Number 8 on Conkey Avenue which ah will finish as a school this year. There's a new Number 8 Schools that's being built on St. Paul Street, but that it was only for kindergarden but it's the only school I ever went to that's still is standing, the other schools I went to St. Michael's Grammar School, St. Andrew's Seminary and St. Bernard's Seminary have all been since closed. But I went through 8 years of St. Michael's School just like my mother did before me. [Host] So after School 8 to St. Michael's. And is that where you you learned that you wanted to be a priest? [Guest] Ah it it was pretty much when I was in the eighth grade at the Grammar School and I applied and was accepted to St. Andrew's Seminary at that time there was a high school seminary. And ah little did I know that I had made the right decision. There are many people that entered with me that never finished ah the 12 year process of becoming a priest.

[Host] After eighth grade you went right to St. Andrews. [Guest] Yes, I did yeah. [Host] Where is St. Andrew's? [Guest] It is where the current diocesan pastoral office is at 1150 Buffalo Road right in front of the Dolomite gravel quarry. [Host] Now is St. Andrew's still in operation? [Guest] No. St.Andrew's closed, ah, I think back in the early '70's. As a seminary and we no longer have a high school seminary or college seminary that we eventually became St. Bernard's Seminary and then that closed also became St. Bernard's Institute. So you leave eighth grade, go away for 12 years [Guest] Well I didn't really go away at that time I could still live home still. So during the first 6 years of my seminary training I lived home and ah commuted to St. Andrew's. It wasn't until the third year of college that I um became a resident of St. Bernard's Seminary. [Host] What was it like living in a seminary in those days? It was quite monastic at that time; it was, we say, pre-Vatican before a lot of the changes in the school. A lot of silence, a lot of prayer and

meditation. Lot of study and we had 18 a hours a week lot of Latin and Greek and Hebrew. It was a classic education, but now you're you're you're a you're a priest now and in a in a Spanish parish predominately nominally Spanish the majority of our parishioners in the 3 parishes are Spanish speaking. They're not exclusively Spanish we have. [Host] And did you learn how to speak Spanish in the seminary? [Guest] Very little bit. I kind of played around with it, but it wasn't really until I got out and was assigned to Our Lady of Mount Carmel that I began learning Spanish seriously. I didn't really learn it as as an academic chore I learned it because there were people there that needed my help, but it was a vehicle for working with people. [Host] Now, being kind of you know ah cooped up, for lack [Laughs] of a better word, in the seminary for what 6 years [Guest] Yes, yes. [Host] Yeah, maybe [Indistinct] I'm sure there's a lot going on around Roch in Rochester at the time and you may've

been aware of, or are not aware of. [Guest] Oh yeah, Oh yes, Bill. We weren't ah isolated. I mean we did watch the news, in fact, I remember that was the era during which the Riot took place in 1964 [Host] You were in the seminary then? [Guest] I was in the seminary at that time and if you remember the Old ah Federation of Churches ah brought in the um um Industrial Areas Foundation-- Saul Alinsky's Organization: Organize Fight and I watched that development very closely from the seminary. Ah I was able to re read about in the newspaper. And ah during my summer vacation I went to the founding convention of the Fight Organization. So I was very interested in that ah [Host] Now you were ordained when? [Guest] June 4th 1966. [Host] And how and how did that come about um? [Guest] Well, it took 12 years of preparation. [Laughter] [Host] Were you right on schedule or were you behind? [Guest] No, it ah was 4 years high school, 4 years college and 4 years of theology. [Host] And that's that's the way. [Guest] That's standard. the standard. Right. Right. [Host] How has that program changed, or has it? [Guest] Ah pretty much not.

Now, many have entered the seminary after college so there's a discernment period ah either during college or after college and then ah they enter the seminary which is ah just the Theologate-- 4 years Theologate. So it's much shorter now. [Host] So the likelihood of going to entering right after eighth grade and High School that that's not done anymore. [Guest] That's not done anymore. [Host] Alright. Now in 1966, you're an ordained Priest, what do you do? [Guest] I was assigned as a assistant pastor to Our Lady of Mount Carmel which was a predominantly Italian parish in a neighborhood which was predominantly black and Hispanic. And um there was a Spanish mass at that time, but a quite small and I was assigned to work with a Spanish speaking community because I knew a little bit of Spanish.[Laughs] But the pastor had the foresight after my first year to pay for me to go to Puerto Rico for a summer to improve my Spanish. And ah after that I continued both.

[Host] What was that experience like going [Guest] Wonderful. [Host] to your and your first trip there I imagine. [Guest] Yes it was. It was ah [Host] That was an intensive language course? [Guest] It was a very intensive language program. But ah we had the opportunity on the weekends to go out to the towns on the island to ah work with the people and actually use our Spanish and I was able to get to know most of the island of Puerto Rico, especially the places where people from Rochester came from and it was quite a joy visiting the parents and grandparents of people who at that time I worked with in Rochester. [Host] Do you have any brothers or sisters Father Tracy? [Guest] We're 6 in all Bill, I'm the oldest of 6-- 3 boys and 3 girls. [Host] And ah are your siblings all around in this area or did any other go into the priesthood or or become nuns? [Guest] I had a sister who went to the convent for a while, but she left and she's now happily married and is the mother of 2 grown children living in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. I have another sister in California and another sister here in Rochester, as well as, a brother 2 brothers and sisters. [Host] And your mom and dad? [Guest] My parents died a few years ago 3 or 4 years ago.

The late 80's. [Host] and ah who now which Tracy family is carrying on the tradition here? You've been around since 1846 ah. [Laughs] [Guest] Well ah neither I, nor my brothers have any children, so there's not going to be any Tracys from this generation, but ah there is Walzers and Bauers that they carry the Tracy genes.[Laughs] [Host] You've seen now ah so many changes take place, not only since 19 since you were born here in 1940, but after you came out of the seminary in 1966 really to embrace, as far as I can see, this community and in a lot of the people in it who needed help ah. What changes now are you stand out in your in your mind about what's happened, or what is taking place in our community? [Guest] Well, when I saw the title of your program Bill, I thought it would be more appropriate to say, "the Rochesters I have known"[Laughs] There's been a lot of socio-economic changes in the City ah over the period that I've lived and worked here. Ah ah, however, it's interesting ah. As I said, things change and they don't change.

While we have different ethnic linguistic groups in the City now, the conditions of poverty and ah social deprivation in many ways haven't changed. Ah. I mentioned my great great grandfather who came here as a non-English speaking immigrant from Germany and from ah the old City Directories. I found he moved every 2 or 3 years. It's very common with people live in the neighborhood now also. They they're ah low income they can't afford good housing and they're continuing moving around. Ah, He also moved around from job to job; he was semi-skilled and he had a, you know, do what the market would bear. The employment market and so again that's very similar with people today who ah whose skills either aren't marketable here because their agricultural skills, or they're unskilled and they have to pretty much work for minimum wage wages where there's very little benefits. They move around from job to job also. So ethnically, a racially there's been changes, but socio-economically in some ways it's a very similar environment.

Now, do you think, you know that many of the ethnic and racial groups now who are taking over, with you know, where the Irish and the Germans and the Jewish people were, you know, in the Community have the same opportunities. What I'm thinking of, you know, that many of the clothing mills that used to hire many of the people who came here and many of those folks had skills that they could put to work [Guest] Yes. [Host] right away in the factories. [Guest] Great, very good observation Bill ah. [Host] Observation. [Host] I mean when those opportunities [Guest] Yes, when I first started in the '60's there were 4 or 5 large clothing factories that employed a lot of the people that I worked with ah Fashion Park, Hickey Freeman, and Bonds Clothing and most of those are gone now. And, so ah in the '60s there still was a lot of job opportunity for people who didn't speak English and didn't have a lot of skills. And that's not true today. We have a very competitive job market out there and if you don't have an education and ah technological skills it's very difficult to find a job that pays a living wage. And I think is very important to understand that in the old days you could survive by the sweat of your

brow-- my grandfather could, ah cost of living was relatively low, but the cost of living is much higher now in Rochester. And we find people paying 40 and 50 percent of their income for housing alone and it's ah very difficult to survive under those circumstances. [Host] You mentioned your own mother and and father and how you know they were sometimes employed and sometimes not. What kind of jobs did they have to to to take? [Guest] What my father did ah was an employee of the Steckertron[?] Lithograph Company his entire work career, but as I said, when work was slow he'd be laid off and there were strikes also. So ah he didn't didn't float around from job to job, but his job situation was somewhat tenuous and [Host] Hm mm. [Guest] And ah, I remember when he was, gee, in his early sixties ah the company merged with another company and they had to 'down phase'. And my father was invited to retire and, he said, well I'd rather stay on a few more years and increase my benefits [Laughs] and so, "There is the door Mr. Tracy." [Laughs][Host] Yeah. [Host] No no nonsence in those days. [Guest] No nonsense. [Host] Things have changed somewhat, the fact

is a jobs are still hard to come by. You've seen, you know, a lot of leadership come and go in this Community: political and corporate as I've said. Any of the people stand out in your mind as people who made an impact in this community? 1 way or the other? [Guest] Oh yeah, Bill, I've been very privileged to work with some fine people ah. Most of whom are gone now, but the founders of the Ibero-American Action League-- Jorge de Cologne, Edwin Rivera, Domingo Martínez was still in the Community. African-American leaders like, Jim McCuller, Canon St. Julian Simkins of St. Simon's Church. Ah back in the '60s there were some fine leaders around that I learned much from those people. [Host] You think that leadership, ah is has disappeared, or there are just fewer people who are willing to tackle, as you point out the socio-economic issues? [Guest] Well, the torch has been passed on to a new generation. There are new leaders today and ah, fortunately, we do have a lot more ah

educated professionals in the Black and Hispanic Community which is a tremendous resource which we didn't have back in the '60's. A tremendous resource for leadership working along with grassroots leaders. [Host] You have been here through also 2 or 2 or 3 bishops? [Guest] Actually ah 4 [Laughs] Bishop Kearney, Bishop Sheen, ah [Host] Bishop Kearney [Host] Kearney now is the 1 who ordained you. [Guest] He's the 1 who ordained me. [Host] We saw that at the beginning of the program that's Bishop Kearney? [Guest] Yes and he retired a year after [Host] Tell me a little bit about him. [Guest] He was definitely the old school [Laughs] and [Host] What, and how? [Guest] Very ah strongly devoted to Mary-- Marian devotion ah very strong, very loyal son of the Church, a very Rome-oriented. We have a Latin phrase, "Roma locuta causa finita." "When Rome speaks that's the final word." And Bishop Kearney was very much like that. [Host] Yeah, yeah. [Guest] Ah, he was a man of his generation, I think, ah he was a fine man for the Church in the '40's and '50's [Host] Hm mm. [Guest] and we've

since had other fine physical leaders after him. [Host] Bishop Kearney a a school High School is named after him. [Guest] Yes, yes. [Host] Any other ah did he develope, any other educational institutions? [Guest] Oh yes, Oh yes he was noted for his devotion to Catholic education ah he insisted that every parish have a parochial school and ah St. John Fisher College was developed during his episcopit and Nazareth College grew also. So yeah he was very devoted to Catholic education. [Host] Now did Bishop Sheen a succeed Bishop Kearney? [Guest] Yes, Bishop Sheen ah [Host] He was here approximately, what 2 years? [Guest] Oh 6-7 years, [Host] 6-7. [Guest] I think. Yeah. [Host] Fine. [Guest] It was exciting time. [Laughs] [Host] What did you have any relationship with Bishop Sheen? [Guest] Yes, yes. He was [Host] Flamboyant person. [Guest] Yeah, yeah. [Guest] I remember 1 stand down with Bishop Sheen. He wanted to give away St. Bridget's Church for housing for the poor which was a fine idea, except he didn't ask the St. Bridget's people [Laughs] and so we ah and we got Bishop Sheen to back down on

that one and ah [Host] And St. Bridget's is still there? [Guest] Bridget's is still there. Yes, fortunately. [Host] And after Bishop Sheen came? [Guest] Bishop Bishop Hogan, [Host] Bishop Hogan, yeah. [Guest] Who was one of my former seminary professors a very affable guy, ah very friendly. [Host] And then about how long was he a bishop? [Guest] Um, you're testing my remembrance Bill. [Laughs] I think, about 10 -12 years. [Host] This this is a Rochester history program. [Guest] Yes, I think about 10 years, [Laughter] [Host] Ok. [Guest] I think it was 1980 that well Bishop Clark. [Host] Then Bishop Clark, he's been here quite awhile. Now what, how has the archdiocese or the diocesean changed, in your view? I mean now there are fewer schools we know. [Guest] Yes, yeah. Well, positively speaking, I mean the whole Catholic Church has changed, the whole [Laughs] world has changed. This has been been a watershed era in, you know, in humanity, but the Catholic Church has changed in dramatic ways. Obviously, its liturgy has changed, in terms of, its worship, but its whole approach to Society. Ah ah when I grew-up the

Church was somewhat ah had a for-fortress mentality. I mean, we we lived in a Catholic world. There was a Catholic culture and we had our Catholic sports, and our Catholic schools and our Catholic hospitals and that's completely gone to 180 degree change now. The Catholic Church sees itself much as more a part of history, a part of society. And so, you know, whether I'm a working to help people on welfare, or celebrating Mass on Sunday that's seen as part of the work of the church-- a legitimate, in different ways. [Host] There are fewer priests now than there were. [Guest] Yes, yes. [Host] And the reason for that is I, I suppose that the reasons you just gave that the world is changing and people are changing and and there is no longer that lockstep from eighth grade right into the into into the seminary. [Guest] Well, maybe there's less priests because the Catholic Church hasn't changed enough in that area. Ah, we still only have male celibate men who are admitted to the priesthood. And if the day comes when ah women and married people will be welcomed into the ranks of the clergy, I

think, you'll see the clergy grow tremendously. [Host] What's happening in terms, you know, of lay participation if there are fewer priests. I mean who's doing the work? [Guest] That's been the plus side of the pl-priest shortage. I'm very privileged to work in a group of parishes where we have 15 staff people and only 3 of us are priests. Ah there's actually 3 nuns also, but we have a large number of laypeople from the Community we we serve working on the staff with us. Practically all of our staff is bi-lingual and bi-cultural. So that's a wonderful thing to have; people who have rich life experiences working alongside of the religious and the clergy. [Host] You've had a long history Father Tracy in this Community. And ah you've seen all the changes, you mentioned earlier. You know, [Laughs] which which phase of this the City or the Community Development a impressed you the most? And and I'm not sure, but what do you see for the future of this this community? I mean, you've seen, you saw the Riots in '64. You've seen the

socio-economic change, the different ethnic and racial groups come and go ah and a are we making any progress? What do you think about ah the future of our Community? Are people fleeing the City ah too rapidly? Ah how do we attract them back? Sorry to have so many questions right here, [Laughs] with so little time left for answers. [Guest] As far as, treaties, but ah probably all of the above, Bill. I think anybody that works with h low income people in the City would say we have to take a strong look at our economy and how we distribute our resources. That ah our resources are becoming more and more concentrated ah, ah, away from where there is the greatest need. Especially, in areas of housing and health care and job development. Ah, I mean, we're a capitalist economy and the money goes where the the wealth is that doesn't necessarily go where the need is. And if we're going to develop a vibrant strong city in the future we have to take a serious look at how we

distribute the resources in this Community. Ah the issue of downtown development piece, of the neighborhood development. We can't have a city without strong neighborhoods we have to invest our resources in neighborhood development. [Host] Do you see any progress? [Guest] I think with the new administration of Mayor Johnson, I think we have an opening. Ah But, ah, I think, Bill is yet to prove himself and ah I think he needs some time to get the lay of the land. Um, but as I say I think we have an opportunity now with a new administration to make some significant changes. [Host] Looking back over you'all your years since you grew up in the Clinton and the Clinton Clifford area 1940. [Guest] Hm mmm. [Host] Ah Which you look back at with some nostalgia at any 1 of those periods ah? [Guest] Oh sure, fond memories of riding my bike down Horse Hill at the end of Clifford, down to the Genesee River Dam and sledding down there in the winter- time going down to Seneca Park Pool in the ah in the summer-

time and going to see the animals in the Zoo after that. Ah ah we had a lot of adventure. Ah there were still some wooded areas in the neighborhood that we loved to explore and build shelters and ah it was a happy youth. I don't consider I was deprived. Ah we weren't rich, but we had a lot of fun. Father Lawrence Tracy it's been a pleasure having you here today. You keep our conscience pricked too, [Laughs] so that we we're aware of some of the things going on in the in this community. So thank you for joining us on "The Rochester I Know", I'm Bill Pierce. See you next time on "The Rochester I Know" it's so long for now. Thank you.