The Rochester I Know; 211; Hattie Harris

Music. Opening music She was born in 1897. It was a world in a time that thought very little of girls and even less of Jews. She has been a wife and widow, manicurist, and entrepreneur, political teacher and activist. Through her efforts, a nursing facility received zoning approval. With her help, a luxury hotel grew out of nothing, and because of her passion, East Avenue did not become a treeless highway. Today Bill Pierce talks with Hattie Harris about the Rochester she knows. We're gonna to get into all of those things [Host laughs] unintelligible] [OK.] Just a just a few minutes, but Hattie Harris first of all, wonderful having you here.] [Guest] Thank you. [You're gonna be 95 next April,] [Guest] That's right. [Host]April '92?

Born in 1897. You've seen a lot of Rochester. I'm not sure how much we can get through, but let's start with where you were born. [Guest] Rochester and 24 Prior Street 1897.] [Host] Yeah. Is your- Do you know if your house is still there on Prior Street? [Guest]No. They demolished the house for the Hanover housing. [Host]Ah. [Guest]The old homestead. [Host]OK so we know approximately where that where that area [Guest]That's right. [Host] is then. Now, how 'bout your mother and father. Where, where did they come from? [Guest]They came from Vilna. Vilna, in Russia. [Host] And and when? Da you recall when they? [Guest] No. No no. They came uh my father and mother married here in Rochester.] [Did they meet here?] [Yes. Met met here and married here, bought the house and we all six children were brought up there.] [Now your mother and father are both Jews coming from] [yes] [coming from Russia.] [Right] [and in the late uh 19th 19th century] [It must have

been Lithuania. That's one of the regrets that I have that I never asked my father the background of his origin.] [Uh huh] [But my father belonged to one of the geniuses of the of the world of The Vilnergoen. It's known all over the world.] You know I - What is that? [That's a man's name and he was Gaon means genius.] [uh huh] [Guest]Vilna's a town that he and the the Soviets[coughs] confiscated all his books. Someday th- it will be written. There is a book that I have that mentions my father's background.] [Host]Now, your father came here, a a Jewish immigrant to Rochester, Do you know why he came to Rochester?] [No.That's something that I don't know. I've often wanted to know why did he settle here?] [What did he do for a living when he came?] [He was a peddler.] [uh huh] [And they went from door to door with a basket - needles and

pins and collar buttons and that. They would go to the neighborhoods and sell them. But men like Harry and a Forman. Forman used to come to my father's house.] [Now this is the Forman of the B. Forman company that] [that's right] [still exists? ] [That's right.] And my father would fill him up with a basket and unintelligible, "you go to here, you go there and they w- all have accounts at Sibley's. Sibley's had a wholesale account on the fifth floor And and people would buy merchandise from them and then they would get up and charge it to them and then they would say my father and Mr. Forman they would charge a little bit for interest and that's the way they paid it out week after week after week.] [Host]That's amazing. Now, how did uh Harry Forman get started in the in the store store business? [Guest]Because they were Orthodox Jews like my father and they did not work on the Sabbath and neither did I. Never worked

on the Sabbath.] [Host]And uh and and your father uh and all of you went to the synagogue where?] [Guest]To the Leopold Street Synagogue that had the first Jewish synagogue in the city. [Host]And who who started that synagogue, do you remember?[Guest]My great grandfather and my great and my grandfather. [Host]Started that synagogue. That's [Guest] That' right. first few. [Guest] And I have and I have in my home the 2 chairs that graced that altar. [Host] Really To this to this day. [Guest] Yes.[Host] Now the synagogue is no longer there. [Guest]No no. [Host] Was that in the same area that Hanover Houses are in today? [Guest]No. No there's a little way a dis- little distance from there there. But the Blacks have taken it over. They have a synagogue. They have a church there. [Host]In the same building. [Guest]Yes in the same building. [Host]Now, Hattie Harris you're you're growing up on Prior Street around the turn of the century.

What do you do. What what what are you doing for fun? You're going to school somewhere.] [Guest]At Number 9 School. [Host] Number 9. [Guest] Yes. [Host]Which is still. [Guest] I wrote a little poem poem. Wrote a little poem and just just just as in keep- keeping with what you're saying. I had in this little poem. "Our street was paved with cobblestone. The houses were one story high and the memories I recall today bring relief as well as a sigh. The attic was a sacred place to go there was a treat. Could I but wander there again, my dreams would be complete."] [That's wonderful You must have had a wonderful childhood to have a memory like that of your neighborhood. Now between your home on Prior Street and Number 9 School, you know, what did you do for fun when you were going to school?] [Guest]We played Run Chief Run. We had h- have ma- a Pov we but. Had da take a piece of broomstick and make benches out of it.

We'd take old skates and wind it around with old stockings and go to the corner to play. That's all that you had. That's all that they had. There wasn't any sidewalks. They were uh 8 by 4s and when the you walked in a- in the rain it would switch all all the way on down to the school.] [Host]Now this is right around 1900 or a little. [Guest] Yeah.[Host]or a little after. [Guest]Yes, sure. Yeah. [Host] Now, you're in school uh at Number 9. [Guest]Yes. [Host]You have older brothers and sisters? [Guest]Yeah. I had I had 4 brothers and 1 sister.] [Host] And did they all go to Number 9 School? [Guest]All go to Number 9 School. All went to East High School and uh then on to co- college and became known as 1 of the - 1 of my brothers became one of the most known a world uh a world man on hypertension. The other 1 was chief [unintelligible] bacteriologists of the Kraft Cheese Company.

[Host]Now, so they all had excellent educations. How about yourself? [Guest] I went to the sixth grade. I had to go to work to help my brothers go to school.] [Host]Now, why why why couldn't you go to school? [Guest] All girls weren't allowed to go to school when when I was young. Oh no! [Host]Girls did not go to school? [Guest]No. Girls went to work to help the males of the family. [Host]hm hm. And what was your first job and how old were you? Oh, maybe seven. No 'bout fif- 14 maybe 14. You see, men had tailor shops on the back of their homes and the clothes would come to there from the places downtown. Like Simon Stein and and uh the Michael Sterns and they would leave the work off there and the people would come there. We would go there. We would work there. And my mother spent $5 to teach me the trade of being a ma a a buttonhole maker. [Host] So someone came to your home to teach you how to make buttonholes?

[Guest]No. I went there. [Host] Ah and then, where did you do your work? [Guest] I worked at a place on Lion Street. In back of their house they built a s- little shop. And had one table, or one unintelligible, one lamp you know and that's the way they earned their living.] [Host] Well for someone who eventually became the mayor of Strathallen(he laughs) Park to st- start out making buttonholes that was. [Guest] That's right. [Host] That was pretty humble beginnings. Now, from buttonholes, where did you go next?] [Guest] Well, I had to go I went to work. I worked until I got married and you married if you if you were 17 18 years old and you weren't married you were an old maid. [Host] Ah. [Guest](she laughs)So w- I married when I was 17 years old.] [Host] Wh -Where were you working at the time? [Guest] I think Michael Sterns.[Host] Uh huh So [unintelligible] so that's when Rochester had any number of outstanding clothing industries. [Guest] Yeah. [Host] industries, [Guest]Yes. [Host] Here. Well, so you got married early.Ah You're 17 years old. [Guest] That's right. And one of my relatives asked us to

come to Grand Rapids and they would give my husband a job and he went Jack had a job there and we were there and then th- and it was 3 brothers, 3 uncles had in Lansing and in Pontiac and that between the 3 we we earned our living that way. [Host] Hattie. It's a little different today you know women are uh. [Guest]Oh my. [Host]Given the high school, college it's and I think colleges now have more than 50 percent. [Guest] Oh yeah. [Host] Female attendance. They're they're getting married late 20s early 30s mid 30s uh. [Guest]That's right. [Host] What what do you what do you think about that? [Guest] To each his own. [Host](he laughs) So, you don't have any problem with that. [Guest] No, to each his own. [Host]So it the world has changed a little bit. [Guest] Oh, [Host] That's the way we've that's where we've come along. [Guest] That's right, that's right. It is changed very very much. [Host] Now, somewhere along the way you got interested in politics. How did that happen?]

[Guest]Well, I felt that I felt] [Host]uh huh. [Guest] That I should be able ta help choose the people that I think would be better for the cu- uh better for Rochester. [Host] hm hmm. [Guest] I love Rochester. I love my country. I love my flag and I'm that kind of a person.] [Host]And so you set about to what to actively working on campaigns? [Guest]On a Mr. Aldrich and I were very close friends. [Host] Now, Mr. Who is Mr. Aldridge? [Guest]He was the mayor; he was the head of Rochester. [Host] Uh huh. So a strong mayor? [Guest] Strong, yeah Sam Drucker. [Host] uh huh.[Guest] And all all those type of people. He was the mayor.] [Host] Now, how did you get to know him? After all you're ju-you're a buttonhole maker and and working at Michael Stearns and somehow you get to know the mayor and work with him? [Guest]Well [Guest]Maybe they saw something that was worthwhile. [Host] Uh huh, (he laughs) so they came to you.

[Guest]Maybe they said that something that was. [Host] Over the years. You got as as I as I as I understand it when I came to town, that anybody who was going to run for office, whether it was the city council or the county legislature or the state legislature we- had to come to you and be blessed (he laughs) [Guest] So to speak.[Host] And if they didn't get a blessing] [Guest] That's right. [Host] from Hattie Harris. [Guest]That's right. [Host]that uh they did they do it more for good luck, or did you give them good advice? Who are some of the people that you first gave advice to? [Guest] Well. [Host] that went on to be elected?] [Guest]Who were some of the first ones? I really can't remember who they are. But I would have to say that 99 percent of them.] [Host] All came to to see you [Guest]That's right. [Host] to make sure that you under understood. Now, are are you a Democrat or Republican?] My father was an enrolled Republican. I am an Enrolled Republican. But I al- I helped elect a lot of Democrats.[Host]uh huh,

Who was the most recent Democrat that you actively worked for and helped?] [Guest]You want me to mention him by name? [Host] [laughs] Please. [Guest]Well, Tom Fry was one of them. [Host] Uh huh. A Democrat running for office and and you're a Republican.] [Guest]He came to the house with Ruth Scott. Ruth's a nice lady. [Host] Now, you also worked on Louise Slaughter's campaign. [Guest]Oh yes. [Host] So you. [Guest]and she singled me out among, I don't know 500 - 700 people took me up to she said if it wasn't for her I wouldn't be be standing here today. [Host][Really. What What- can you give us a hint of the kind of advice you gave to Louise Slaughter because that was a major campaign] [that's right] [in this community. She ran against] [She ran unintelligible] [She ran against Fred Eckert?] [She huh? [Host]She she ran against Fred Eckert, I believe. [Guest]That's right. [Host]for that seat.[Guest] Chris [unintelligible] and I I who was my very dear friend helped us very very

much. That's how she got elected.] [Host]What what specific advice did you give Louise Slaughter for any? [Guest] Don't let 'em bully you. [Host] Ah. [Guest] Don't let 'em bully you. And when when he would say to her about her pol a political affair, I told her just what to say. You'll tell Eckert at least you voted for an honest man.] [Host] Very good Hattie. Do do people running for office still come to see you? [Guest]Yes, every day. [Host]Every day [Guest] Yeah Roc Ron [unintelligible] and I are very very close friends. [Host]You must have office hours t-.] [Guest] No. no office hours. No office hours. [You saw this community change Hattie, from maybe a sleepy little village around the turn of the century. Maybe it wasn't so sleepy ah to today and downtown has changed, suburbs have grown.

[Guest] Terrible. [Host] What what - [Guest] Not for the better. [Host]Why? [Guest] I don't know. Greed has overtaken so many people. This one wants to belong to this club n this one --- and and it isn't so my type of living.] [Host] You you grew up in a in a Jewish community.] [Guest] Right. [Host] by and large. [Guest] Right [Host]and uh early around the turn of the century. [Guest] Yes. [Host] Did you personally or your family experience any discrimination or any anti-Semitism at that time? Can you give me some examples of that? [Guest] I would be happy to. We lived on 24 Prior Street. My father and mother bought their house when they got married and all our children the children were were born at 24 Prior Street, but my as we grew older, my father wanted to have a better living for his children, and he bought a place on 666 Clifford Avenue and we moved over there.

My father opened a little store.] [Host] What kind of a community was that at that time, on Clifford Avenue? Was that a Jewish community? [Guest] No. Well I just want you to know, I won't go into detail about it, but we have to move back to 24 Prior Street.] [Host] Ah. It was that bad. [Guest] That bad. [Host]And did he lose the business? [Guest] Yes yes. And everything, and we went back in 24 Prior Street. [Host] When did you start to see some change in that or have you seen any change in tha-?] [Guest] Well I'd have to be blind not to see the change, [Laughter]you know and hear the change and know the change. It's a such a it's such a change that you can't even make a comparison.] [Host]But Anti-Semitism at that time was what? rampant in Rochester? [Host] I remember when Meyer Jacobson ran for Congress against Mike and Ernie. [Host] uh huh.

And what year was that? [Guest] Don't ask me dates or years I - just time, Ok? [Host] What happened during that campaign? [Guest] It was terrible. Anti-Semitism came out just like the Hitler had them some Jews tat -tattooed on the- on their arm. [Host] uh huh Now, over the years you've received all kinds of awards and bouquets for things that you've done and you've made sure that people got out of Europe or Russia. [Guest] Five and we got 500 people out of uh displaced persons camp. That's where it was in Wurstberg, Germany and [Host] In Wurstburg, and they came [Guest] And and because of what I did.[Host] uh huh. [Guest] The priests there sent me some beautiful china.] [Host]Wh- where did the 500 people go? [Guest] Let me explain this. I didn't care where they went. I went there was a man at the Chamber of Commerce by the name of Mr. Tipping. I went to Mr.

Tipping. I had 2 little bonds and I gave them the bonds because you were supposed to be responsible for these people for 5 years. I never lost ten cents on any one of them. Everyone that that we got outta there, now what we did was if a there was a draft board 158, and we would find out which boys were going where. And we had a code. And they would tell me where they were and I'd would and then we'd would get together and ww- would send them packages. What do you think would be an object that could bribe those people at the the bridge across a bridge over to another territory? Cigarettes. [Host] Ah [Guest] We had cigarettes coming from New Jersey and from and every every coffee can that was in the United States. We packed them, seal 'em

and send them on to give 1 of their guards 2 cigarettes if they would pass people on to uh [Host] Amazing. Amazing. [Guest] We didn't care if they went to China. We didn't care if they went to Brazil. We didn't care where they went. [Host] As long as they as far as they get out. [Guest]As long as they were on terra firma somewhere else. [Host] uh huh Hattie, that's remarkable. At the beginning of this program ah we mentioned that at stop you're preventing East Avenue becoming a Thruway or a highway. What was that all about? [Guest] Well [Host]and how did that come about?] [Guest] Well I fought the whole. I've. I I didn't win because of any other thing, but I was right. [Host]This is this is really new to me. [Guest] Yeah, well, they were gonna take all the trees down and I fought the East Avenue Coalition. [Host] who wanted to do that? [Guest] Yes and I I went ahead and I said no this is an historical street

and cars could go and come. And I fought 'em and I won. The same went for the Methodist Home. They didn't want the Methodist Home and I said. I went before the zoning board. And I told them. I says, "I won't go there. I'm not of their religion. But as God was good enough to let us get old we're entitled to a place to live. Which makes over the hills of the poorhouse obsolete." They hit the gavel and we had it.] [Host]Hattie Harris, you've done so much for this community, it's amazing. One of the other things you've been instrumental in either developing or seeing through was the Strathallan Hotel which was [Guest] Right. [Host] I guess that was an empty what, apartment house first. How did that come about? [Guest] Well, I have ta tell ya this:That house on the corner was known as a cat house. (he laughs) A woman had 20 cats. (he laughs) That kind of a cat.[He laughs] OK. And uh the place was

sold for $35,000. [Host] Now this is on the corner of Strathallan and East Avenue. [Guest] Right. [Host] Hm hm. [Guest] And then, the next person I've got and I know their names, but I don't think we should mention them. And he bought it for 70, he And the next man sold it for $75,000. Then the a the uh the time of the housing came along you know they were going to build there and I fought that. I says there's no schools, no anything else. Low income housing they were gonna to put low income housing over there and I fought that. [Host] Why? [Guest] Because it it the truth - There was no place for garages there's no place for schools there is no place for stores. They're homes.[Host] Um um. And then what was the next step on that on that plot?]

[Guest] It was sold for $350,000. [Host] Wow! It was a nice investment by somebody. [Guest] And I knew about it and I I unintelligible it] [sold to speak. [Host]Now when it was sold and uh then who developed it? [Guest] Well there was Pete- there was one man by the name of Granik. [Host] hm hm. [Guest] He came to Rochester and a man by the name of Alexander. I remember those names very thoroughly.] [Host] Now that the space eventually became the Strathallan Hotel. [Guest] I named it the Strathallan. [Host]You named it the Strathallan. Now, how did you get involved in in a hotel at the corner of East and Strathallan?] [Guest] Maybe I was nosy. (he laughs) No. at uh was the street] [uh huh] [and I said of God couldn't be good to me and I can live on the street [Host]uh huh] [Guest] from where I came from. I'm going to protect every house and protect everything that I knew knew how to handle and that

and we got it. And the people that when they when they were voting, I said 2 words to them. I knew how the vote was gonna go. And I said 2 words. You know what they were? Don't vote. [Host] Aha! [Guest] Don't vote. Sit there as if you were paralyzed.] [Host] This is to your supporters. That you want [Guest] I thought I'm written up in the uh in the uh I'm written up in the uh highest branches of the uh Because they took it to the highest branch in the United States and I am written up in it.] [Host] Wonderful. You you supported the development of the hotel. [Guest] Yes. [Host] but there was an East Avenue group. [Guest] That's right. [Host] there who didn't want it. [Guest] That's right. [Host][uh huh [Guest] and they didn't want it. They're always a somebody that comes along and gives you some kind of a dumb reason why

it shouldn't be, even like the Methodist home. Who could possibly say that about a place for people to live? [Host] It sounds to me like that's one of the things you're most proud of, The Methodist home. [Guest] Methodist Home and anything else uh and for the Third Presbyterian Church. I got that that parking lot from Dr. Watson. [Host] uh huh. [Host] Now, Dr. Watson was? [Guest] Sibley Watson. [Host]Sibley Watson. [Guest] That's right [Host]Lived nearby. [Guest] I went right lived next door there and I I got the $75,000 from Sibley Watson to give give the the parking lot to the Third Presbyterian Church. [Host] Now, Is this is the church on East Avenue. [Guest] Right, right [Host] across from [Guest] Yes [Host]Strathallan.[Guest] Yeah. We had property on 55 Meigs Street that was right adjacent to it, an it was a great big lot. They tore the house of Reynolds House they tore the Reynolds House down. I go back, see? [Host] Yup.

[Guest] Way back, and I I'm grateful to God that I've got this type of a memory [Host] yeah. [Guest] that I can tell it to everybody who wants to hear it. [Host]Well that's remarkable. Hattie [Guest] And without mentioning names (he laughs) like those who [Host] Well you're [Guest] are guilty [Host] You're very kind. [Guest] Let them squirm.Let them squirm,right? [Host] you're very kind. Over all you're over the 95 years it soon will be 95 years, is does 1 accomplishment stand out more than others? Was it the Methodist Home or? [Guest] No. [Host] What what what do you feel. I - I there were a few things I was going to tell you, I don't know if you've ever been to Woodcliff.] [Yes.] OK well and Woodcliff] [This is a hotel.] [Yeah.] [in Perinton] [Peter Heinrich is my friend, my good friend. And these dishes that the priests gave me send them here to America. I gave them. They're worth about $50,000, but I gave them to Peter. Peter had a beautiful

cabinet built in in Mexico and they enhanced that place there. They're all there.] [I can see them if I go to Woodcliff?] [Yes you can] [I'm going to make a point of doing that] [Ask you ask Peter to have you have [Guest] want to see them. And there are. They're a gift from Hattie. [Host] Hattie Harris, your generosity really has known no bounds. This community is better [Guest] Thank you.[Host] for you being here. [Guest] Thank you. [Host] There's no doubt about it.[Guest] Thank you very much. [Host] And thank you for being our guest today. I'm Bill Pierce. See you next time on the "Rochester I Know."] Announcer [ For a VHS copy of this programs send $19.95 plus $3.50 shipping and

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