Speaking of Rochester; 213; Ron Dow

[Barber Conable]: How do you do ladies and gentleman? I'm Barber Conable and this program is called Speaking of Rochester. This program we look at Rochester's institutions, we look at its history, we look at its future and we talk with some of the very important people in Rochester who give our community its character. It's a pleasure to welcome you to this program. Our guest today is Ronald Dow, who is the dean of the river campus libraries at the University of Rochester. Uh, he, uh, presides there for in Rush Rhees the library, which many of you know is the largest building and the most central building on the Rochester campus. It also is a famous research library. Um, probably one of the 50 largest in the United States. Uh, Ronald Dow is a man who comes originally from South Dakota. He's been all over the United States. He's had a number of different jobs, coming here in 1996 after having been associate dean at the, uh, college libraries

at State College, Pennsylvania. Before that, he was a business librarian. I guess that's where the, uh, money is. [Laughs] And uh, and was a, uh, li- a librarian for Shearson and Company in New York City, uh, which merged with a number of different, uh, uh, other brokerage organizations. And, uh, I think must've been a fairly lively job. Uh, one in which he, uh, continually moved up the corporate ladder. And, uh, I think probably worked a little harder than, uh, than, uh, anybody would enjoy because of the pressure on business libraries. Ron, welcome to our program, we're happy to have you. You've been here since 1996. Um, and you've, uh, taken over Rush Rhees and, uh, changed it from a pool of placid tranquility into a fairly lightly institution haven't you?

[Dow]: Well that's the goal. A a library of this size and quality. Uh, isn't worth much if you don't have students and faculty actively actively engaged in, uh, use of the collections. [Conable]: Well I see a stream of students passing through the halls here, um, as I look around and we'll see different parts of the building as we do this this program, um, I think, uh, there's a lot to be said about, uh, uh, great repos- itories of knowledge like this and, uh, something that we wanted to ask a number of compelling questions about. [Dow]: I'm looking forward to it. [Conable]: Ron we're now in the Putsic library. It's one of many small room libraries here in this tremendous building. Uh, this is mostly, uh, for temporary exhibits is it? [Dow]: No actually this is the, uh, newest of our libraries. Uh, this is a wonderful, uh, Rochester in upstate New York opportunity. Uh, poet Bill Heyen from Brockport- [Conable]: Bill Heyen from Brockport. [Dow]: Yes, uh, for 30 years collected, uh, uh, first editions of American Poets. Assembling a

collection of some- [Conable]: He's a poet himself isn't he? [Dow]: He is a poet himself. But assembling a collection of about 75 hundred volumes all of the volumes signed annotated by the poets many of them dedicated to Bill. And that became the core of the collection in this room. [Conable]: Well this a permanent collection isn't it? [Dow]: This is a permanent collection and we built the library around the collection. So, [Conable]: Well, let's let's wander down here and look at th- these would all be contemporary American poets. [Dow]: Exactly so. [Conable]: So it's a very specialized collection. You must have a great many specialized collections here? [Dow]: Well there are a number of them and we'll visit some of them as we go we go through the library. [Conable]: Fine fine. [Dow]: Uh, what's unique about this collection is that although it's a research collection and although it's a collection of poetry, it's real intent is to stimulate student writing. And so what we see in the rest of the room is a- the ?Jury? Ramsay study and that means that classes in creative writing are taught in this room by our faculty in this environment so that a faculty member can get up and show a volume or read from a a piece that's in the collection. Uh, but also students can see the

outcome of creative writing, they can see and experience the tactile experience of a signed first edition. [Conable]: Well this must be quite an eclectic, uh, collection also not the old standards like Robert Frost or Edward Arlington Robinson or [Dow]: We'll they're included, uh, but most of these are more contemporary than than those 2 poets. Uh, but what was special about them is their relationship with Bill Heyen. [Conable]: Bill Heyen. [Dow]: And so what came with the collection are Bill's notes on reading all of these books. All of his manuscripts for his publications and all of his notebooks where he reflects on what he has read here and so there's great fodder for presentations- [Conable]: Is he currently a professor at Brockport? [Dow]: He just retired this year. He's a young retiree. Uh, and, uh [Conable]: Probably writing poetry like ?Matt? [Dow]: Oh he does yes he comes out with, uh, books with great frequency, uh, but he, uh, has also a wonderful reader and so we've been able to bring him to campus. Uh, he is now at the memorial art gallery with a a series of, uh,

drawings on poetry that he has written and [Conable]: Obviously has a wide acquaintance among modern American poets. [Dow]: He sure does. [Conable]: This is a very large collection. Do you have any idea how big it is? [Dow]: Well there are 7,500 volumes in this room. [Conable]: And most of them are inscribed to him? [Dow]: Yes exactly so. [Conable]: And and first editions, wow. [Dow]: Yes and the room is is- [Conable]: Some real value in that some day. [Dow]: Oh yes. The the room is, uh, named for Hyam Plutzik who was a university poet. And it leads us into our special collections department where we, uh, maintain collections just as these that are that are available by page not, uh, for general browsing. There's some 3 million volumes in our library system. [Conable]: Oh I know it's it's it's a very large library. [Dow]: But there are 100,000 of 'em here. [Conable]: Whether you're ever going to get to 4 million volumes because of the, uh, the changes that are going on in the in the in the, uh, cyber space, uh, [Dow]: Well there's that and also [Conable]: Cyberspace has room for a lot of books. [Dow]: But also the inflation and cur- i- in- inflation in the cost of books that that might even be a bigger problem. [Conable]: All right well let's go look at the special collection.

We're talking to you Ron Dow the dean of the campus libraries. Uh, incidentally, uh, there are other libraries for the University of Rochester aren't there? [Dow]: Both on the ca- on this campus and, uh, at the university in general. In this campus, there's a large science library at the Carlson library. There's a physics library, a laser library and then there's a medical library in the Sibley library at the Eastman school. [Conable]: Those are all specialized libraries, these this is a general one right? [Dow]: Right, this is the most general of the libraries that, uh, we have on campus. [Conable]: And by far the largest of course is the [Dow]: Yes. [Conable]: All right well now right now we're in the William Seward room. Uh, William Seward the secretary of state under Lincoln and later bought Alaska for 2 cents an acre or something like that from Auburn, New York. [Dow]: Indeed. [Conable]: Uh, why is this named for him? [Dow]: Well actually it's in- [Conable]: Do you have some of his papers? [Dow]: We we have all of, uh, Seward's papers and Weed's papers, who was, uh, his mentor. Uh, [Conable]: Weed was a Rochester editor who headed up the Whig Whig, uh,

party for New York and was a a a man of somewhat questionable, uh, um, morality I would guess you would have to say. Isn't that right? [Dow]: Well, you tell me. [laughs] ?inaudible? [Conable]: Politicians bought more speak more more ?inaudible? [Dow]: Exactly. But one of the significant things I think about about Seward and Weed is that they are, uh, significant in state in state history and they're regional and that's one of the reasons we would have their papers, uh, and many books have been written, uh, because of of those papers. Uh, [Conable]: Well now now Ron you have a a tremendous number of special type books here and and what, uh, makes a book a special book or a document a special document. [Dow]: Well as in the case of the, uh, Seward papers or the Weed papers they're special because they require a lot of special organization. Uh, they're special because they're one of a kind. And, uh, so if you put them in the stacks they might walk away. And would be lost to

scholarship, uh, in general. For example I brought out a few items. Uh, here for example, we have from our Susan B. Anthony collection. [Conable]: Ohh, yes. [Dow]: This is a letter that, uh, is very special. [Conable]: Starting my dear young friend. [Dow]: Exactly. A young girl had written and asked for Susan B. Anthony's, uh, autograph. And Miss Anthony wrote back saying that I have just voted. I am the first person in New York State, first woman in New York State to have voted and so I'm delighted to give you my signature on this day. [Conable]: And she has a very clear signature. [Dow]: She sure does. And so this is a document that, uh, commemorates a point in time but is very unique that it has their signature. [Conable]: A very important point in time as a matter of fact. [Dow]: Another important, uh, Rochester person is who whom with whom we have many papers is Frederick Douglass. And if you have really good eyes you will see this is a letter to Mrs. Mrs. Post. And it's saying please harbor [Conable]: Harbor this sister from the host of, uh, bondage.

till 5 o'clock. [Dow]: Until 5 o'clock at which time a, uh, someone will come and take her to the land of freedom. [Conable]: The land of free- part of their underground railroad. [Dow]: That's underground. [Conable]: And it's signed by Frederick Douglass. [Dow]: Exactly. [Conable]: Showing his active involvement in the in the Underground Railroad. [Dow]: Exactly so. [Conable]: He was an editor here in Rochester. [Dow]: Exactly. [Conable]: And a very important, uh, uh, abolitionist as a icon almost for the country as a whole. [Dow]: Right. Now what's interesting about these kinds of things is that as unique documents, there isn't a lot of scholarly value in this. But when you're working with students who are writing a paper about the Underground Railroad or, uh, Susan B. Anthony and they can come into this collection and actually see firsthand these documents and others like them, they they form an impression. [Conable] Makes the whole history come real as you see some [Dow] Exactly. [Conable] See [Conable]: Something as- [Dow]: And that's the educational point of a library. Now let me give you another illustration. This is a a collection of documents that we put together for a special purpose recently. Uh, the university is celebrating its susq- with centennial and, uh, an event was held in Chicago and the libraries participated in it and so we assembled this

little book to take out because there was going to be a conversation about Abraham Lincoln. And we have over 80 documents that Lincoln wrote and signed, uh, and some of them are in this book. Uh, and and, uh, what's in- [Conable]: The originals are in this book- [Dow]: The originals are in this book. [Conable]: This this this is not a book of general [Dow]: No. [Conable]: Distribution then. [Dow]: Exactly so. And one of the most interesting, uh, just in terms of point of time is this last letter. And does anything strike you about that letter? [Pause] Sorry to put you on the spot. [Conable] Well, uh, the secretary of state please assemble a cabinet at 11am today. General Grant will meet with us. Yours truly A. Lincoln. [Dow]: And what's the date? [Conable]: A- ohh! April 14th 1865, the day he was shot. [Dow]: This is probably the last letter Lincoln ever wrote. It's his own hand and it's signed. Uh, we have, uh, uh, 80 such letters, uh, that came to us as part of the Seward collection and that's why a collection of that sort

is in this room. But- [Conable]: You know William Seward was assaulted the same day. [Dow]: Yes. [Conable]: The secretary of state to whom this is addressed was, uh, badly stabbed by another assassin who was part of a cabal of, uh, uh, conspiracy against the against the government he was stabbed in his bed and was in very bad shape for a while. That that's a that's a really remarkable historical document. [Dow] We have collection, we have John Gardner's papers for example the, uh,[Conable] The novels- [Dow] the Batavia novel. [Conable]: He lived in Batavia that's I'm interested in that because I knew all the Gardner family. [Dow]: Ahh, and the Exley, Billy Exley's uh, papers he was that author who wrote a fan's notebook which is considered one of the top 10 novels ever written. It's an exploration into the depths of the psyche. [laughs] Uh, uh, we also have [Conable]: Where was he from? [Dow]: He was from Watertown. [Conable]: Watertown. [Dow]: We have- [Conable]: Well you have you have a a a number of of things addressed to New York state then, not just to Rochester? [Dow]: Oh exactly. [Conable]: But of course this is a great this is a great center of learning and it's

inevitable that you draw knowledge in from all over. [Dow]: Right. And if you were fascinated what Queen Victoria did in her spare time we have one of her, uh, sketch- [Conable]: Are you talking about Mrs. Brown? [Dow]: Yes where she did the, uh, she did water coloring and we actually have a book of her water colors. Uh, we have a tremendous children's collection. [Conable]: So you have some really special things [Dow]: Yes. [Conable]: in some of the special collections here in Rush Rhees. [Dow]: And and scholars come from all over the world to use them. Uh, but the most exciting piece is that our own students can use them. And we we encourage students to come in and to work with these collections so that they don't just turn, uh, term papers from the internet, but they have an experience, an opportunity to experience these kinds of primary documents just as they could experience poetry, uh, in the Hyam collection, uh, and just as they can experience, uh, uh, centuries worth of academic writing, materials and stacks these large book and serial collections.

[Conable]: Well this is a this is a cloistered room here it looks more like appropriate for the declaration of the dividend than for collecting old books. But I must say it's a quite remarkable collection that you have, uh, centered around this room, uh, and available here for for study by those who are interested. Ron we're now in the Robin's library, uh, which is Middle English. Now that gives some idea of the scope of this, uh, this, uh, remarkable collection that you have here at Rush Rhees. Um, uh, are these these all original old books are they mostly reprints? [Dow]: Well neither. They're they're books about books in the Middle English. But there's also a major publishing effort that takes place out of this library that results in making Middle English texts available to scholars and students all over the world. [Conable]: So this is a germinal kind of a place- [Dow]: Exactly so. [Conable]: it was a study of Middle English. [Dow]: Exactly so and, uh, scholars come here from, uh, all over the world. And what's unique about it is these materials are all in one place. So they, uh, uh, make it easier

for the scholar. But what's also fascinating about this library although it represents the oldest time frame in th- that we have a a succinct library. The the library has a very large internet presence and so if you were interested in Camelot for example. [Conable]: So these books are all digitalized? [Dow]: Well not all of these books but the works of this library, the things that are produced by the scholars who use this library form a large digital library if you're interested in Camelot, you would go you could go on the Internet and you would find a large website here that would that would lead you to more materials on the Arthurian legends than practically anybody else in the world. The same would be to- on true on Robin Hood. [Conable]: Robin Hood. [laughs] [Dow]: And also there's a very significant bibliography of Cinderella. Uh, also- [Conable]: Cinderella was real, was she? [Dow]: Well all of the literature about Cinderella, uh, and the legend of Cinderella if there is a legend, uh, has a home here and and brings scholars together from all over the world.

It's also an interesting place for students. We had a, uh, young, uh, student who is thinking of coming to the University of Rochester who made the mistake of walking to our reference desk and saying do we have any books in this library about Camelot. [laughs] And she was invited to come up here and ?met Elm Pack? who is the, uh, head of the Arthurian legend, uh, Society of North America, who runs this library and knows more about Arthulian- Arthurian legend then just about anybody I could imagine. Uh, and and she had an enthralling, uh, one hour experience. And, uh, we later heard from her mother that she wanted to come to the diversity but what draw drew her here was this idea as a student she could participate in this kind of scholarly endeavor of making these Middle Eastern Middle Middle English texts available to the world. The digital effort the editing effort, uh, that goes into making that possible. [Conable]: And I assume you have a lot of original, uh, manuscript and and books too and- [Dow]: Exactly. Well not necessarily just in Middle

English but, uh, we wouldn't store them in this room simply because it's it's an open library so anyone can come in and and use the materials here. Uh, we would have lots of things on microform, uh, that you could use in this library but you have a need to secure with special, uh, uh, humidity controls and you have a need to preserve those types of materials with special light filters and we have that in in in other kinds of areas in the library. [Conable]: Well now Ron, this raises an interesting question. Books go back a long ways. Um, all the way back to the big origination of printing and, uh [Dow]: Mhm and preprinting [laughs] [Conable]: And uh, and and we were all raised on books. Uh, you've got 3 million books here in this library. Are you ever gonna get 4 million? [Dow]Well, hope so. The, uh, I think that th- the book is a communication mes- mechanism, uh, is is probably the most sufficient and the most user friendly. And and as- [Conable]: Well you can do it without a lot of complicated equipment you can just pick up a book and read it.

[Dow]: Exactly. [Conable]: That's the big thing about it. But but nowadays so much is going on the, uh, into cyber space. [Dow]: But I turn to people like you, when you write a book as you've written a book, do you write it all on the computer and want to have it just out there, uh, o- o- o- or do you want to have it formalized in some archived version? And many people who write, most people who write, want to have their contribution as a as a piece of the literature of the discipline or as a as permanently archived. And research libraries can do that. We do that well but also I look to you as the reader. Do you want to read things on the Internet exclusively? I I kind of view the Internet as a as a large shopping market where it's it's sort of like TV you you you you click a lot you move through things very quickly, uh, but you don't really absorb it's not where your attention is. That when you want to do serious work or or become involved in thinking another medium works better, the book. And so if it's a reader

if you're c- if you're content with an electronic form, then there won't be a forming of volume. But if as a reader your preference continues to be for a paper version, there will be a formula. We have to to serve our our our readership. [Conable]: So we really don't know where technology is taking us. But you feel that, uh, that most people want to have an anchor to windward somewhere be able to fall back on the written book. Uh, as a as something they can count on without a lot of complicated equipment to get at it. [Dow]: Yes I think that's true but there's also I think a significant role for libraries like the Robbins library, where so much of it in digital form. It makes what's very unique and very special available to a large mass. And and then the book makes available, uh, material that can also be mass distributed. [Conable]: Why is so much of it in digital form because it's been subject to so much research? [Dow]: Well it's a good format for exchange. So again if you're interested in a sch- scholarly exchange you

might choose to to do work in a digital format, uh, uh, because it makes it quickly a- a- available to students and non-students alike everywhere in the world and so you choose to go in that direction. But again as a writer, as opposed to somebody working with a primary source, you know what medium do you want? And I suspect that even the people in this library cause I know that's true, publish in digital format but also if we would look in these cases you would see the paper copies of those same volumes sitting here and available for readers. [Conable]: There's something about that digital world that's floating around out there but doesn't seem to be very solid, does it? And the book, uh, seems like something you can you can sink your teeth into intellectually. [Dow]: I think so yes. There's an efficiency I think to using the electronic forms that you can jump in and pull out. But what we know is that people who invest the most in their own learning, learn the most. And I think that when you look at a 3 month million volume or a 4 million volume, what those things represent are an

investment in learning and an opportunity for you to invest in that learning as well so that you become a a brighter person because of your investment and not through just your efficiency of interacting with information over the Internet. [Conable]: Well isn't it interesting that we come into a place where the books go way back. [laughs] And start immediately thinking are they going to be there in the future? [Dow]: Exactly. [Conable]: Uh, it it is there is a pretty interesting technical panorama, uh, without without printing we wouldn't have had books at all. [Dow]: Yes. [Conable]: I would have had written books I suppose. Uh, uh, the kind of, uh, of monk written, uh, uh, illuminated manuscripts of the past still even if we didn't have printing. But with printing came a great volume of learning. [Dow]: Mhm. [Conable]: The great the great mass of learning was capable if you if you printed books and distributed them widely and had a number of books available instead of just what one monk could inscribe. Now all of a sudden we are faced with this this new development, this remarkable technological explosion that comes with the, uh, Internet and the and

and and and the whole use of cyberspace generally. [Dow]: Yes, yes. [Conable]: And we wonder what that means for the future. And yet you're confident as a librarian and as a man who knows a good deal about technology that they'll still be something you can fall back on in the form of a written book, uh, for the future as well- [Dow]: Because- [Conable]: Therefore libraries will not become, um, will not become totally digitalized or totally, uh, microfilms. Uh, uh, There will still you still have to have the the 2 covers of the of the printed matter in between. [Dow]: And the physical space where those things are found. So that the the the thing the library has significance as a learning place. When I- [Conable interjects] Knowledge. [Dow]: Yeah, exactly. When I talk to alums or if I ask you this question I haven't but, uh, what people remember most about a library experience is time spent in the stacks where they've gone into an area where there are books and they can spend week after week reading and absorbing and then writing because when they do that they're most like faculty mentors who are in turn writers. So writing and reading are

important part of our community but communities in general. [Conable]: Obviously the Robbin's library a very specialized place here in Rush Rhees, is a place where you get some perspective and that's interesting too. Ladies and gentlemen we've been talking with the dean of the river campus library system at the University of Rochester and we're standing now in front of Rush library. incidentally, who was Rush Rhees, uh, Ron? [Dow]: Rush Rhees was the president university from 1900 to 1935. Uh, the campus was built in 1930 and the library was named appropriately for that president. [Conable]: We've we've been in a lot of the specialized libraries we didn't get into the general, uh, student section, uh, where there would be a lot of people studying and so forth because we didn't wanna disturb them. But we've gotten some idea of the scope of this remarkable building. Uh, as as the dean I suppose you're expected, uh, to take responsibility for the

overall building including, uh, getting it in the kind of shape that will make it a magnet for students, isn't that correct? [Dow]: Exactly so. When I when I came here about 4 years ago, the building appeared very tired. Students weren't using it to the degree that they should for a a a facility of this this magnitude. And so a lot of effort has gone on in the last 4 years to renovate spaces, to find donors who would help us fund spaces. Uh, and we're at the point this summer where we'll really finish up the last of the historical spaces in the building. And as you watch students go into the building or you tour the building and you see that students are now in all the new chairs I think that strategy has certainly paid off. [Conable]: Well I can attest to the fact that there is a tremendous, uh, concourse of of students through there. Uh, people people moving constantly. I take it you also have many meetings there, is that correct? [Dow]: Well we have meetings with students obviously. But there are outside events we p- poets who come,

we have a lot of the public readings. [Conable]: And these would be in the meeting rooms there [Dow]: Yes. [Conable continues]: and then that's on the ground floor. [Dow]: Exactly so. The wells brown room, uh, uh, we have, uh, novelists who come and speak, uh, we have receptions for guests on campus and we have a lot of student events. We've even had a trombone quartet in the library. [Laughs] We've got African drumming in the- [laughs] [Conable]: Obviously it's a place for the dissemination of a tremendous scope of knowledge and I think we've gotten that idea from looking at all the various specialized rooms, a few of them anyway, specialized rooms in the library. Uh, we wish you well in your work here [Dow]: Well thank you. [Conable]: because, uh, we're proud to have somebody of your stature accepting responsibility for this remarkable place. I hope you don't have to do too much money raising but I acknowledge that that's one of the p- part of university responsibility nowadays. Ladies and gentlemen, our guest has been Ronald Dow, uh, the, uh, the Dean of of the library system at the river campus in the University of Rochester. I'm Barber Conable, this program is called Speaking of Rochester.

Thank you for being with us today. [Closing Music] [Announcer] For a VHS copy of this program, send $19.95 plus $3.50 shipping and handling to WXXI tape offer, Post Office Box 3 0 0 2 1, 1, Rochester, New York, 1 4 6 0 3.