The Rochester I Know; 514; Marion Hawks

[upbeat music] [Announcer]: A native of New York City, she moved to Rochester in 1941 when she married a local boy. Her community interests started with the Red Cross during World War Two and is combined today with her lifelong interest in the arts. Bill Pierce talks to Marion Hawks about the Rochester she knows. [Pierce] Hi, I'm Bill Pierce. I'm very happy today to welcome Marian Hawks to the "Rochester She Knows". Marian that was a pretty snappy hat you had on in that last picture we just saw. What was that all about? [Hawks] Well I hasten to tell you, Bill, I don't go around

dressed like that [laughter] and never did. and never did. [Pierce] We couldn't see the whole outfit. [Hawks] Well, that's just as well. At the sesquicentennial celebration at City Hall-- [Pierce] Oh, for Rochester? [Hawks] for Rochester in 1984 they asked us to come in period costumes; so that was a period costume. [Pierce] So that was a 200 year old costume. [Hawks] That's right. [Pierce] Now to to go back to the first picture we saw, we saw a little girl with dark bangs. Where was that taken? [Hawks] That was taken at my parent's home in New York. And you know a lot of us have dark hair at one point. [Pierce] In New York City? [Hawks] In New York City. [Pierce] Now, is that where you were born? [Hawks] Yes. Born on Riverside Drive in New York City. [Pierce] We'll have to talk about that sometime. [Hawks] And you also? [Pierce] Well going way back in my checkered career, but not we're not going to take up your time. [Hawks] That would be nice, I'm sure it's much more interesting. [Pierce] I don't. But you were born New York City,? Were your mom and dad from New York City?

[Hawks] No, my father came from Tennessee, and my mother came from just north of New York City around West Point. And her mother came from France. [Pierce] So your Grandma, your grandmother-- [Hawks] was born although she came when she was very young. [Pierce] in France and your dad from Tennessee. Well you obviously made it a tremendous cultural impact in this community, so your, your support of arts-- [Hawks] Well it's nice to have nice friends. [Pierce] Was it somebody, you know, was it somebody in your family or was your mother so inclined or your grandmother? Hawks] Well, my mother did paint some, but I think that when you when you come to a city like Rochester, you are so taken with what a wonderful place it is that it brings out the best in you. [Pierce] That's marvelous. So the environment here? [Hawks] That's right, it's the environment. [Pierce] The air that we breathe. Well, obviously the air that we breathe is a good part of what you've put in this community. But Marion Hawks, how did you come to Rochester to begin with? I mean you're from New York City.

I mean you-- [Hawks] Well, that's a very funny tale, because I did go to boarding school outside of Washington D.C. and my friend at boarding school came from Rochester. I wasn't exactly sure where Rochester was, but she asked me to visit her which I-- [Pierce] Somewhere in the Midwest-- [Hawks] somewhere in the Midwest [laughter] And so I did, and with with much joy. She said "Well now tonight we're going to go out with Tom Hawks and Dick Eisenhart, and I don't know which one you will be going with. So I found out afterwards that the reason that I went with Tom Hawks was because they had a flip to see-- [Pierce] flipped a coin? [Hawks] yeah, and Tom lost the flip, so he got me. We've also had a lot of fun over the years about that. So that's how I first came to Rochester. [Pierce] And the Eisenharts are are still here in Rochester? [Hawks] Right, and still good friends as well. [Pierce] That's marvelous, so when did you actually-- So all right, so you dated Tom Hawks.

[Hawks] Well, this was when we were both in college and then we went to live in Cambridge, Massachusetts for the first two years we were married because Tom went to Harvard Business School. And so that's why it took till 1941, which is a long time ago-- [Pierce] Came here in '41. What was the, what were your impressions when you came here? We ask that of everybody, because maybe you remember them clearly maybe not. [Hawks] Well, I remember thinking how really nice people were, how really beautiful the parks were, and how seemingly beautifully laid out they were, how beautiful the river was. But I do remember thinking that it was rather insular. There was no ethnic diversity, the way there had been in Cambridge and is, and New York City, although I had an interim period of living in a place that had even less than Rochester then.

And that um-- [Pierce] Did you feel you were a little cloistered when you were on your own-- [Hawks] Yeah it wasn't as-- [Pierce] in your own segment of the community? [Hawks] Well, I had I have no black friends, I had no Asian friends. I really didn't even have any Jewish friends in the, when I first moved here. And to me that's what's so exciting about the city is that the diversity-- [Pierce] It's changed. [Hawks] the ethnic diversity and it's it's wonderful. [Pierce] Well it's interesting you kind of make the point that was made in Smugtown, which came out in what in the early 50s? One of the early books I read when I first came to town. But it's definitely the town that's definitely changed. [Hawks] Yes, I think there's no question about it. [Pierce] But you didn't come to the city, you came to the, you went to live in the fancy suburbs. [Hawks] That's right, that's right; we did look several places and the house that took our fancy was there. We got it for nothing, it was had been owned by a bank.

Don't ask me why, I don't remember. [Pierce] But it was in Brighton? [Hawks] In Brighton. Mm-hmm. [Pierce] But you, but you live in the city now, and you've lived in the city for a long time. [Hawks] Yes, about 20 years now because we were just very interested in the city and we felt so strongly that it was important to keep the heart of the city beating vibrantly, and that we all had to to take an interest in it. And then it was as simple as we decided we'd better live where, are we put our bodies where our mouths were. [Pierce] Will you and Tom Hawks have done a remarkable job in doing just that. This is about YOU not about Tom. When did you first get involved in community activities? [Hawks] Well, as I believe you mentioned in the very beginning, it was wartime then, 1941 as we well remember. And so they asked for volunteers at the Red Cross so,

the Red Cross then was on Plymouth Avenue and Troup, I believe, and I took the subway-- [Pierce] Based in the Cornhill area? [Hawks] Exactly, like you know in the present Cornhill area, and that was a wonderful area, wonderful to wander around it at lunch hour and there were a few stores on Spring Street. Little shops that reminded me of Dicken's time in London, Teddy Willford's and-- [Pierce] RIT was there then-- [Hawks] RIT was there and then unfortunately later buildings came down, there was no landmark society or similar, but that's another subject. Anyway it was fun to go down on the subway and you kind of visit with people and there was this little sense of community on this subway, and it wasn't all subway it was surface as well as underground. And so that was a great beginning. I was in the Foreign Inquiry and Prisoner of War

section of the Red Cross and of course people come in to hear about their serviceman or communicate with them. And then people from, who had emigrated here, immigrated here from other cities. [Pierce] So you would get in touch with with the service personnel overseas for the family at home? [Hawks] No, you facilitated messages and packages. [Pierce] to prisoners of war? [Hawks] Yes. And a few internees, there were several-- [Pierce] That must have been fascinating. [Hawks] It was interesting, heartrending. But also I got an the enormous feel for the Italian community then because so many people in Rochester have Italian heritage and they would come in, a lot of them, to send Red Cross messages to their families and receive them. So anyway, it was a it was a wonderful entree into the community for me.

[Pierce] And after that, after the war was over, did you get more involved in the cultural and artistic community? [Hawks] Well, I think my first real volunteer job was at the Red Cross, I mean, at the Memorial Art Gallery, because they had a class for the blind in ceramics and they needed to have drivers. And so I volunteered to drive, and then we would stay and help in whatever way we could and then the gallery have no volunteers to speak of. And now you think of the enormous number of volunteers that as you know I'm really very partial to. [Pierce] A huge docent program. Who was the director of the Library of the Memorial Art Gallery that the time? [Hawks] Well Gertrude Moore was director and of course at that time there were no, I believe, there were no other women directors of museums. [Pierce] So Gertrude Moore, and both she and her sister both-- [Hawks] Isabella

Herdle was the associate. She came in as curator and then became associate. [Pierce] Now they were the daughters of the first director-- [Hawks] Correct. of George Herdle-- [Pierce] Who started [Hawks] Right, he was the first director of-- [Pierce] In 1913, 1915, somewhere in there. [Hawks] Yeah. I think I was '13. [Pierce] And then did his daughters take over the Memorial Art Gallery? when he-- [Hawks] Yes, kind of by osmosis. And I do-- [Pierce] They were remarkable. [Hawks] They were remarkable, and Isabella is still remarkable. She has a mind that remembers all points, artistic and otherwise. She's ex-- but the vitality of those women and the dedication and that has passed on through the Director. [Pierce] I know your support has been very been very important to the growth of that organization. [Hawks] Well, I don't think that's true, but it's just very exciting to see it grow. And you know when I first came it seemed to me that there were just older people doing things, of course my

idea then of what older was, and now they're quite different. [Pierce] So you were the new kid from New York who was-- [Hawks] And now it seems to me that people who go to museums, who go to concerts, who care about the city are all ages and that's what's so important, to get the younger people coming on and the more middle age, and it seems to me it's happening at the gallery, the Avril? Society is a perfect example. [Pierce] It certainly happening at the gallery when I see the young people lined up over there to get in, it's marvelous. [Hawks] It's very exciting, because, but I think the cultural institutions, all of them are now involved in outreach. Where is when I first came, it seemed to me it was the settlement houses that were primarily interested in outreach. Obviously, they still are by the nature of their being.

But, I think, to see the cultural institutions reach out-- [Pierce] I think it was people like you who broke that wide open because, your comment earlier that the community was a little insular in some areas, and I think people tended their own store, and you know were not open to the diversity that we are today. [Hawks] No, I think it's true and of course, I mean who coined the phrase "one world" I guess it was Wendell Willkie way back when. Part of it is a national trend. But I think it meant more to Rochester to to open up you know. [Pierce] Rochester has a famous dance group now, probably Rochester's most famous dance group and you were very helpful in getting that started. Would you go back and tell us a little bit about the Bottom of the Bucket Button? You know what it was all about at the beginning because I know you were instrumental in helping that the growth of that organization. [Hawks] I must say I would never accuse you of having an imprecise mind. But having said that, I will, because I was not instrumental in the beginning at all.

Garth Fagan is an exceptional man and an exceptional artist and he singlehandedly started the company, and the reason it was called the Bottom of the Bucket. But, obviously it was at the bottom of the bucket when it started from every point of view. But just you wait. [Pierce] Yeah. [Hawks] And after 25 years, they are now celebrating their silver anniversary. It has a national and international reputation which far exceeds its local reputation, but that's changing. [Pierce] I went from the Bottom of the Bucket, but [Hawks] to the Bottom of the Bucket, [Pierce] and then to The Bucket, [Hawks] then just the Bucket. And now Garth Fagan Dance because the company found it a little embarrassing in different parts of the world and "what is this bucket you mean?" It was that sort of slang expression that didn't give enough dignity to the artistic level the company had reached.

I always say when anybody asks me about Garth Fagan Dance that it's obviously the artistic success is magnificent as a world quality. But the beauty of the human being is so contagious and they-- and the the role model that they are to young people. I don't think can be overemphasized because they are wonderful human beings. When they are taken on a tour or are on a tour, Garth always takes them to a concert, to a museum, to whatever's happening in that city when they ever have any free time. So their, their world people. They're cosmopolitan. [Pierce] Why has that dance group been so successful? You know, it was a life long many years of hard work obviously but-- [Hawks] The discipline, the hard work. I hadn't realized what mental discipline it was as well as physical

discipline. But to answer your question Bill, I think it's Garth's ability to size up the potential of another human being. From an artistic point of view, but from a total human being point of view, that is to be a member of the team to have a quality way of life as well as an artistic life. And of course Garth is a gifted choreographer. He does choreography for Alvin Ailey Company, for Judith Jamison for several-- [Pierce] Oh no that I did not know. [Hawks] He, he does and I don't know how he finds the time or energy to do it, but he is an enormously creative, caring human being. It's a privilege to, you know, know those people. [Pierce] Marion Hawks, we've seen you know just excellent developments in the past few years in terms of public art being, you know, being more visible in the in the

community whether it's in connection with galleries or museums or whatever, but also in places like the airport and other public places now. How do you feel about the necessity to continue to build more- more cultural resources, more artistic pieces for this community and all of that is to say, what are you doing about it? [Hawks] Well, right now right now nothing. But I'm taking a little hiatus, but I do think that to come into a city you are referring obliquely, if not directly to the airport art, when you come into any city now in our country, you are- in most- you're immediately aware of the quality of that city. Sometimes it's ethnic, but not always. And I think to come into any building that is- as stark

and serves only commercial and technical interest and use. I mean, obviously the primary reason for an airport is for planes to take off and land safely. But for the visitor, the airport passenger, and anyone who meets them, to come into a sterile atmosphere is not representative of Rochester, which is a friendly community and has more cultural organizations than most cities of larger size, or many cities of larger size and most of our same size. So I guess what I'm saying, in too long winded way, is when you come in and can sense a vitality, and a beauty and controversy, public art is controversial, there's no

question about it. But it would be very boring if we all thought the same way, wouldn't it? But it is rather nice to live and let live, if possible. [Pierce] Most airports you go into, I imagine, have to have something that represents Pittsburgh or Dallas or Houston or Orlando or Atlanta, that says this is the city that you're in or this is the culture of the city you're in. [Hawks] I think of Albuquerque, particularly when you're is the culture because Albuquerque is New Mexico is primarily American Indian, Hispanic, and Anglican and the minute you walk into that airport, well-- [Pierce] Indian artifacts, and Indian paintings, and culture-- [Hawks] and Hispanic paint artwork too. And it's just exciting and provocative and we are a very vital

community. [Pierce] Have you even figured out yet what we should put in the airport that represents us? [Hawks] Well, it's hard to put that. So I think what we felt, that to show the work of some of the artists to brighten that corner in whatever way we can certainly-- [Pierce] We have outstanding local artists and-- [Hawks] No question about it. [Pierce] in Wendell Castle, Albert Paley. and Nancy Jurst, whose piece finally got in. I think you were a little helpful in that. [Hawks] Well, Ross Goldman had, the county and appointed a committee to look into having some sort of a competition for art in the airport and Ross Goldman was chairman of that and there's been laboring in those vineyards for a long time, for so well with such professional expertise. Well there was a setback, when for political reasons, the rug was pulled out from under the contracts before the-

the night before they were to be signed and so many people feel that the private sector shouldn't have taken on the job of raising the money because then-- some of the politicians say "well now you see, they can do it and they don't need our help." But on the other hand, I certainly would die of old age, I think before any art was there if we temporized any longer. So we've got an exciting airport, and we could we could have more. [Pierce] But we have an exciting artistic community too, innumerable artists in this area of all- all crafts who regularly contribute to the artistic community. I'm thinking of the Rochester Folk Art Guild and some of the things they do. [Hawks] Oh, absolutely. Well the Folk Art Guild, and when when you think of the School for American Craftsmen, nearby the Roy Croft Group of Rochester. I just learned, and Southern California, the Rochester area

and not just the city by any means and Southern California are the two most outstanding areas in the country for art and craft. And I think a lot of it stems from this Alfred University, and Mrs. Vanderbilt- Webb, and then behind the Red Cross House on Plymouth and South, I mean Plymouth and Troup that we started out talking about was Shop One, which was Wendell Castle. [Pierce] Is that were Wendell Castle started? [Haws] and Albert Paley and Ronald Pearson, and Franz Wildenheim, and now they are world class. [Pierce] Where was the Carriage House? [Hawks] Right immediately behind the the then Red Cross building. It's a Victorian multi-story building with the little towers [Pierce] and that's- is it still there?

[Hawks] Yes, it's still there but I don't know what it is now. [Pierce] And those were--where they were enjoying their crafts-- [Hawks] yes, yeah, it was a commercial you know they were selling their goods, but I mean they were such a force for the good but I think I hadn't realized we have- we're one of the two places in the country that are regarded as being particularly outstanding in arts and crafts. [Pierce] Rochester. [Hawks] Rochester. and area. And that's that's really remarkable. There's so many reasons that Rochester is number one both from an industrial point of view and and commercially and artistically in so many people's minds. Certainly the Eastman School of Music is as world class and recognized. [Pierce] You think we're finally becoming a little influenced by the Euro- by the European approach to any commercial building? It's always, it seems to me it's always filled with art And even the Japanese-- [Hawks] true, true. [Pierce] through building commercial really say the place is filled with art. [Hawks] Well, you talk about public art or

you brought it up a while back. When you think, as you say in Europe, that the fountains in Rome or Paris or and the public art encompasses architecture, buildings and parks and uh, Yes we are influenced by it, but then we kind of forgot our heritage. I think and now we've I hope recaptured it. Certainly, With the new BNL building and looking out-- [Pierce] Bausch and Lomb, for people who might be watching this in Canada. [Hawks] Thank you. [Pierce] We do- We do reach Canadian audiences so they should know that the world headquarters for Bausch and Lomb are here right here in Rochester. [Hawks] and the building was just opened and the first floor is open to the public, as you well know and looks out on a square, which reminds me of some of the European squares, which is now

a real a real joy and treat with St. Mary's Church that has such an outreach program and Geneva Theatre, which is in that restored armory. [Pierce] Maybe they started something that we will sit up and take notice of as we begin to develop the rest of the city. [Hawks] Well certainly do you take High Falls and the river; that I think shows additional promise for development. Certainly, I don't know how many cities have a sound and light show with a beautiful falls and we have a beautiful river and we're starting to appreciate and use it. [Pierce] Marion Hawks, you've done awful lot to make this community more beautiful. Now I'm going to challenge you to do something about the baseball stadium [laughter] in terms of getting good art. [Hawks] That's a big order I guess, that's a big order. [Pierce] Marion Hawks, thank you for being with us and thank you for what you've done to make this community more beautiful. [Hawks] And thank you Bill Pierce for what you think you know this community.

[Pierce] My guest today has been Marion Hawks. I'm Bill Pierce, this has been the "Rochester I Know". See you next time, so long for now. For a copy of this program send $19.99 plus $3.50 shipping and

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