Perspectives; Women Sport

This is perspectives. I'm Laura Karan on tonight's show. A conversation about women's spirituality. The idea behind this philosophy is that women want a spiritual framework that recognizes the unique rites of passage that occur in all of their lives and attempts to spell out mysteries about why women react the way they do why they rely on their into recession and have longings and desires that are different from men. One of my guests Carol Leonard of Kong is a midwife and co-author of a new book called The women's wheel of life. The book sets out 13 stages that women can identify with from daughter to mother to matriarch. We'll also be joined by feminist theologians Penelope morrow from University of New Hampshire. She talked with us about the origins of women spirituality person. This is New Hampshire Public Radio. I'm Laura Kenyon with perspectives. My guests today are feminist theologian Penelope morrow from the University of New Hampshire and Carole Leonard of Concord. Carolyn It has worked for many years as a midwife and she's

co-author of a new book called The women's wheel of life. Both of my guests are involved with a growing philosophy called women's spirituality. I asked Penny Mauro to define it for us. I would say that it was a feminist cultural movement and within the feminist movement there are many branches we have liberal feminism socialist feminism radical feminism and cultural feminism which looks at really changing the institutions within androcentric society and having a gender analysis really of things such as the church politics economics and so on. So comes out of that. So is women's spirituality focused on changing. Institutional churches or views of religion are definitely a gender analysis. And of course again you get the whole range of folks within that some who want to completely leave the institution as such and create new ways of being and doing in writing and also those who want to redeem the

text as they say and have a hermeneutical of suspicion and work within the house and you know what are so well it's a famous phrase coined by this misuse there at Harvard Divinity School but roommate is sort of the hermeneutical of suspicion is to bring a feminist analysis to the text but not to throw out the text. So of course there are many of us that full you know along the continuum which is that we're home a new day. I mean you take it like a textual criticism. I see. OK. Tell me why do you have to have a gender analysis of spirituality. If someone was to say to you you know isn't spirituality sort of gender neutral. Well ideally ideally. But the fact is for the last two to 5000 years we've had a very gender specific Judeo-Christian religion and our language has been male. The symbols have been male God the Father

the King the Lord Almighty angry Yahweh a the Father God. So we have had a very male symbolic religion. So it's time to sort of redress the balance I think Carol why do we need to look at spirituality that way. You know many of us have heard these discussions about how the Bible or other religious texts or churches or seem to be male centered which is the way it was when some of those documents were written. But today you know we understand that why. Why does that need to be changed do you think. Why take a feminist point of view. Well I think to give God a feminine face found inside of God is actually a whole new way of thinking it's not just God in drag. You know it's it's. Encouraging people to be more maternal and more protective of the environment more respectful of Mother Earth. And I think that it's deep into

our archetypes in our myths where there are the feminine feminine archetypes that are have been missing for several thousand years and it's really important for women to be able to relate to the feminine side of God. What are the feminine archetypes Carol where does that come from. Well recreating them actually were recreating a lot of the phases. That's actually what my book addresses and the imagery that we've we've really learned from the pre-Christian era which was the imagery of the maiden mother and crone which introduces the three phases of a woman's life that's been pretty accepted in pretty traditional in the last I'd say two decades would you say any. But what we've done now because women are living so much longer the phase of a woman's life sort of the autumn of a woman's life is the one that we're addressing in the book which is sort of where all the baby boomers are now. We call it we have defined it as the matriarch phase. But to

give women positive reinforcement and positive archetypes for that phase of her life. When you say Carol that these things have been established for a long time where where are these things written in the beginning about archetypes for women. A lot actually a lot of us from pre-Christian times the Wiccan are Celtic religions have what I'm familiar with anyway is the Celtic Irish. Trilogy that's where the that's where it's come from. Kenny what is the history of this point of view on women and the stages in their life. Where does it come from. It's ancient and it's pretty literate really. I mean the earliest writing we have assumed that you know the Epic of Gilgamesh where we see a goddess there an Egyptian goddess. But that's the origins of patriarchy too I mean there was a pre literate oral tradition of up to 40000 years that we now have archaeological artifacts. Thanks to the great work of people like Maria

Gimbutas we now see that there are civilizations that were woman centered in God s and Ted and we have ices and Egypt and the endless Indian mysteries and we go further back into old Europe with all the Venus figures thousands upon thousands that have been uncovered in the last actually in this last 40 years or so. So what is the relevance of that to women today. I mean do we look at these like we would have stories of Greek and Roman gods are absolutely absolutely a myth for our times I think it's the old wisdom coming back again as new wisdom maybe old new wisdom. We need it I mean we have had this disastrous detour called patriarchy where we have been warring and killing one another violent much violence against women and the I mean eco side is just it's just out of control.

Yeah but it's not the same to men and women I mean why is that a huge problem. Women you know it's for both. It absolutely has all the talk about species suicide here and I think the patriarchy has not been working for men. What you want is the patriarchy this is what is that define that for me. Yes this is a world run by men actually very masculine scented men scented society. Where they make the decisions where God is the father and the man is the head of the household is God is the head of the Chechen so on and we get this filtering down into every day lives this as most women can attest. One of the ways that it I think that it affects how we behave in this in our society is that with the patriarchal religions that are the current world view now that God is without is outside you and as a judge mental dictatorial God and dictates how you behave instead of the pre-Christian project pre Judeo-Christian religions the divine was

within us well and so therefore you had responsibility for how you behaved. And so it wasn't like someone was dictating some you know Sky Father was you know that was telling you how to behave but you have the responsibility for your actions every minute it's a ripple effect you see so it's a really it's a shift in how we think and how we perceive the earth in our in our walk on earth in general that it's not a dualistic perception but that the divine is within us well us without and it's not a linear thinking process as much as a cyclical. Thinking process but you do have responsibility therefore for your actions. Yes this is interesting that transcend an immanent idea of divinity and I think it's why so many people especially young people that I work with is so interested in the imminent religions and they are known by their you know institutional church as the pagan religions but it's essentially pagan meaning going back to the folk religion so we're looking at Aboriginal religions traditional African based religions that's what I

teach you know and yeah what do you think people are so interested in that today and he particularly young people because always of patriarchy are not working I think it's imperative that we start about life reviving the Erse and that's the Earth based religion is go through the cycles of the seasons and the cycles of the the sun and the moon and I think that it's important that we remember and we learn those ways because it's going to be too late. We can't know what we're doing to the earth. I think our young people definitely sense the collective anxious about what we've done to the US. So this definitely set for again well but does that translate into you know an environmental movement or religious men you know feminism is very closely tied to the women's spirituality movement. In what way Carol. Well because this is there's a it's called the Gaia hypotheses and what that is is looking at the Earth as an actual entity as an actual a Goddess or our

mother. And if she's an actual being and we are living on her with her permission it really changes the focus where before we've sort of felt like we could dominate nature and that you know other species were subservient to us but now if we see that we are equal with the other living things creatures on this earth and that we are just living on her face with her permission it really shifts how you behave and how you be in your walk. My guests are Carol Leonard and Penelope Moore and we're talking about women spirituality. I want to ask both of you. I think these are hard concepts to get across to people. And that even though there seems to be an increasing interest in this field I mean there are books on the bestseller lists that are directed at women's spirituality in that movement are women trying to sort out their feelings and their intuitions in their direction. Carol when you talk to people about this what kind of reaction do you

get from people who are not necessarily part of the movement right now. I think they're sometimes they're quite astounded actually that women would celebrate their biology we've been sort of kind of taught to ignore our biology or try to function in a man's world competitively and what we're encouraging women to do is actually celebrate their blood mysteries and that that's part of their power and that's part of who they are and I think women who are familiar with that kind of rhetoric are you know embracing and are very empowered by it but I think when you first hear it it's very it's very you know and it's very radical it's radical thought I mean even thinking about a goddess for us is is radical thought which is you know obviously whatever's the Divine whatever you want to call your higher power probably is no gender but we need to redress as he said before some of the damage that's been done with the deliberate suppression of women's knowledge and its power will in penny I would ask why would if you tried to step back from this and think

about it why would it really be any different than other religions or concepts that other religions or other. Spirituality groups have. Well actually the more you look into US based religions the more you see that they're centrally all the same and it is about community it's about interconnectedness of all life. And it is about honoring the amazing mystery of women and our ability to give life and consequently we are not the ones who want to take life. So I honestly think it's time for women's ways of knowing to come forth. Carol Gilligan named it and also the wisdom traditions of the native peoples we can learn much from them too. And they are no women. Carolyn of course being at Harvard University and a well-known writer you know women's issues. Well what are women's ways of knowing. There was a vast amount of knowledge that was lost during the Inquisition and the Inquisition is

still a period in our history that we were not taught about. But there were nine million women that were killed during the European Holocaust and there was a tremendous amount of information that was. That was buried with those women and a lot of that was ways of healing herbal knowledge herbal healing midwifery to reclaim that for women's ways of healing even is saying that what we are considering to be alternative healing which now people are starting to look at is realizing that it's viable and valid ways of healing. Who were the women who were targeted joining position. They were women who were originally were women who were spinsters or older women. But it got out of hand and there were some villages where there was only one living woman left it targeted and it was it was a gender genocide basically a tie to any woman. A lot of them were healers for the traditional you know while village wise woman that there was some jealousy about who was that. The healers and who was able to take care of the

community. And I think the people that came into power the patriarch came into power jealous of these women still working with the townspeople and so they eradicated them. They call them heretics which is whatever they want to call but they were healers. Now let me ask you along that line when you talk about healers is that the term witches or witchcraft does that emanate from that period of time which which which which is comes from the word Wicca which means to bend or alter reality. They were the healers now which is has a derogate means it has a derogatory connotation but it was not originally. A negative title at all is one of just one of what is I mean that's why we've reclaimed a lot of these titles and these archetypes in the book just to recreate for women the imagery that used to be around these archetypes. This is an old what it's used over and over in the Hebrew Bible to get rid of the sin of

witchcraft i.e. the Goddess woman scented religion and to burn all the idols and triumphs. And of course they came up with their own idols. Well how do you get beyond that today the penny. Because I think Carol is quite right some of these terms are used in the book like witches or sorcerers priests as they have in our culture today a negative connotation. How do you get beyond that when you're trying to discuss that with people. It's fascinating and I thought that men and women are interested in the origin of woods. I was like hag used to mean a woman with wisdom with sacred knowledge and a hagiography in church history is actually the lives of women saints. So there are words that have been misconstrued a lot of you know I attempted by the Catholic Chechen but written by the winners you know in a lot of our words that we have have been totally distorted and deliberately distorted I mean for instance the word virgin we talk about young virginal women in our in our

culture today we think of that as a young woman who has her hymeneal ring is still intact and has not been penetrated but actually that's not the original word meaning was a virgin was someone who could be very sexually active but who was not controlled or owned or conquered like a virgin forest. And so the power of our language even has been taken away. And so to reclaim the power behind words and the power behind these archetypes or these labels it's very important work because to name something is to give back its true meaning. Carol as a midwife do you consider yourself a healer or a witch. If so do you identify your site. Oh I claim the word witch only because. Many many many of those women that were burned during the burning times were midwives. And in order to reclaim my tradition my heritage that's my tradition. It's it's an honor for me to take that word and it's not you know all the stereotypes that have been done over the years by the church as far as

you know the imagery of which I had you know as a an unpleasant person is a deliberate suppression of what women's original knowledge was. Carol in women's wheel of life you've divided sensually woman's life into 13 stages which as I read it seemed just coincide with with age experiences in a woman's life. What's the goal here in doing that when you're writing. Are you trying to just think about the emotional and physical changes that women go through and point out the similarities. That all women share at those stages in life. Well we used of course as the major transitional parts is the blood mysteries or the physiological milestones of women's bleeding I mean that's obviously something that women have all in common. And that also that's been sort of ignored in our in our culture as well. And we are trying to.

Reawaken than the need to start celebrating the different phases that are heralded by these like the beginning of your mentees and then giving birth for the first time and men a pause and then the ending rituals that are important that really need to be kind of refocused again in order for us just to be respectful of our of our biology in our physiological processes that we go through. It is interesting because this is the embodiment and this is what I see women as ways of knowing about the birth process is the blood chemistries dying. And of course in our culture we've had this very unhealthy separation between body and mind and spirit. And if we really want to talk about you know the incarnation of Jesus and the incarnation of ourselves as sort of holy beings in the US it's really getting back in touch with the body of the the body of ourselves and of course women know a lot about the body we're constantly reminded monthly you know with our cosmic Alluna bodily

cycles. And this is always been a threat you know to male medical profession and the Catholic Church they wanted their ordained male priesthood to deal with the process is the thing and dying and marriage and all of the rights in between not the priest esses not the village women who obviously were very powerful in the community. The midwives were always called upon and they called it from woman to tomb and they were the they were the women who brought the babies in and then brought you out when you died. And what happened during the Middle Ages and the suppression of women's knowledge is that midwives were not allowed to go to universities and so they made these edicts that the only people that could heal were people who had graduated from the university. You know women went out at Harvard Divinity School till the 50s 1950s. My guests are feminist theologian Penelope morrow and writer Carolyn or just also midwife here in Concord. Penelope how do you connect this. You know the woman in the news today is you know a soccer mom in

a caravan of minivans just trying to keep her head together. You know how can you relate this which And you and I Carol talked about this you know in some ways it seems sort of out there it's provocative and interesting but you know for somebody who's running over to school to pick up their kids and get them here and there it's like well I don't have time for this kind of stuff. Relate that to them. Yes. The we need I mean we need new metaphors. There's all this. They're actually coming out of Harvard Divinity School the shopping mall being the latest church. They were just experience the high for a lot of us today. You know in consumers so we definitely need some grounding and some connection with one another with community. With ourselves as aspects of divinity and hopefully getting in touch with nature and the outside again. You know the idea of the seasons in this gorgeous autumnal

in fact driving up here today I was thinking my goodness there Moses is burning bushes all over New Hampshire. I mean he must've written his tablets down in the full in the autumn because they are everywhere and it's a religious experience you know to see these and to feel that love and appreciation and gratitude and life also even even in your minivan rides I mean you can see as you're going to the soccer fields the least you can see the trees. Pinney how many years have you been working at this. And I would say I was reborn when I discovered feminist theology at divinity school so this was probably about 10 years ago now have you found over time. The public or people in general are more receptive to these ideas now than they used to be or not so quick to say these people are far out but maybe a little bit more

willing to say this is interesting. Well I think so I think definitely in the last decade I've been tremendous tolerance and opening up to diversity of interests because our old ways are just not working. You know people are generally not happy and well we're living in a very deceased a time. I'm really optimistic and excited by these new movements. I think it opens up wells and of course it's about our planet our planet Earth. I want to plug here for the Unitarian Church. Yeah Unitarians really are in the process of. Divine designing sort of a world a global religion that sucks up thing of almost all paths and it's just the peace church. It's focusing on world peace and it they're really they're really making tremendous strides. Apparently there are about 10 to 20 thousand groups call cops groups with feminist theology groups really around the Unitarian churches in this country alone. That alone shows the amazing

interest. Well and you were telling me earlier Penelope that in your classes so mothers are accompanying their daughters to class yes. Yes may have had some grandmothers too and I know the mothers are taking the cause through osmosis and sharing the books and the young women and the young men you're calling home and excited about the the texts and the ideas and the new things that we're doing. What are they looking for when they sign up for these classes or when they talk to you. What is it that they want. It's definitely a balance in their life you know when we're in the academy we can get very much in our head as Mary Daly calls it when Akka to mention. And and I think that the young people are definitely wanting to be more embodied more whole in terms of the body and the spirit. And I think it's wonderful that you NH is actually offering a forum for some of the experiential learning and the exploration you know that Will education should be about self-knowledge.

Penelope morrow is a feminist theologians at the University of New Hampshire. Carol Leonard lives in Concord and she's a midwife and co-author of a new book called The women's wheel of life. Perspectives is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio was produced by Laura James. I'm Laura Kernan. Thanks for listening.