With All Deliberate Speed; J. Bennett Johnston Interview

But that's been a lot going on here. Senator you are anti busing legislation has been stuck in the house for some time now is there any hope of getting it out and tell us a little bit about it. When you first filed it your intention and what you feel about it now in an analysis. Well when we first introduced it many would say we would never get that through the Senate that it would be sort of the filibuster. And after a long fight letting lots in like we were able to invoke cloture that is to get over the filibuster three different votes of 60 40 and better and I thought that was a great victory and I think it it gave great impetus to leave any bussing movement or push legislation to take those things a step at a time of the next step was to go to the House of Representatives and in the House of Representatives we had very good luck in that. The Justice

Department testified in favor of the bill said it was constitutional and urged its passage which was another big hurdle to get over the final hurdle which is getting the judiciary committee to allow the bill to come to the floor for a vote has not been forthcoming. It looks less and less likely as the session wears on without action that we will be able to get the bill up for a vote in the House of Representatives. I think if we did that the House of Representatives would surely pass that bill. I think frankly though we've achieved a great deal because I think our legislation has helped turn the Justice Department around. And the Justice Department has now in the first circuit court of appeals filed a motion to have an evidentiary hearing had the district court level in order to prove that bussing has not worked. This is a development of the profoundest dimensions. It's the first time the Justice Department has ever taken a position that

busing has not worked. And I believe they'll be able to prove it. It will take some time to do so. You have to build a record in the district court. Bring in facts figures experts and studies to show that rather than helping education rather than helping integration and busing has done just the opposite. But I believe that case can be made. And with the Justice Department. Desire to do so a lot. I think it is a very hopeful all. Even I was disappointed that they did not join in the school board's request to have a stay at the local at the district court level for this September. I think I was disappointed but that is not necessarily inconsistent with a desire of the Justice Department to throw that order out. They may simply have wanted to have to be better on so that they wouldn't risk a reversal. I have the same risk of reversal of their action in the fifth circuit so I remain very hopeful about bringing back some sanity into

the law. Any busing legislation with the Justice Department having taken the stance that it has. Do you think that it will affect the pending cases that are currently active in the way Zana. And do you think you yourself will back off from your own amendment. No I'm good. I remain strongly in favor of some action to curb what I think is a very unwise educational policy. What the next step we will take. First of all we're going to continue to try to pass this bill in this Congress. I understand the changes are not good enough but we're going to continue to try to do that. And I would hope that the court itself would reverse itself. Oh bullshit. All right and we're going to keep putting the pressure all that from this legislation. Now what this is what the step would be next year if the bill doesn't pass this year. We haven't decided yet. I want to meet with my co-sponsors and make that decision

whether to start in the House of Representatives first since we've already passed the Senate this year. Those kind of decisions have yet to be made but we're going to continue to be all in favor of curbing this forced busing which as I say I just think is very clear it hasn't worked. It's been said that you and Henson Moore and others have been instrumental in convincing the Justice Department and the Reagan administration to take the stance that they have and to focus their attention and sort of making an example of the cases in the Louisiana. Would you care to comment. Well we've tried to and I think we have what we've done is required the Justice Department to make a decision. The words we put in our busing legislation that came before the Judiciary Committee in the term of the judicial Judiciary Committee invited the attorney general to come testify and say yea or nay. Well there was a legislation and it required them to make a decision. And being faced with that decision and having written what we had put into the

record in the arguments I think we had something to do with having them make the decision they did. You know I think as I say that that is a decision a lot of the profoundest implications because it is it may turn the whole court around don't know the question of busing has been somewhat ironic because one of the longest running federal cases in the United States is right here in East Baton Rouge and the facts are the All this case is six and he's out having to do with desegregation. Do you think that it's wise at this time for the Justice Department to step in before those cases ever get resolved. Well you see there is no resulting of the cases. That's one of the lessons we've found from. From busing and you you have the first round of court orders and that first round. The court thought would resolve the problem but when they make the first round of court orders they find that that doesn't work. It didn't work it didn't get the screws adequately balanced

racially. So then they make the second round of court orders and the court in good faith. The time the second round is made thinks that that's going to resolve it and that doesn't resolve it. So all you do and the record shows this not just in East Baton Rouge but elsewhere by continually chasing the white students all around town and moving the all around town and then the next student in the same way you move them you end up moving them out of the school system. Over 4000 elementary students moved out of the school system last year. Same thing is happening this year with high school students and in the process support for public education goes down. Funding for public education goes down but same thing is happening from Los Angeles to Seattle. And and and. That's why I say there's no end to it you can finally look to a point and say well the case is now concluded now it's back up.

Many blacks are saying that by saying even though it's not agreed to by many many of their own said that that's all they have and if you take it away that you have to replace it with something. Are you and supporters of the anti busing legislation looking for any kind of solution or alternative to bussing. Absolutely. We're looking for better education which means that you and you have magnet schools you have special purpose schools of vocational technical schools to fit different skills and abilities you have. All school zones fairly fairly droll In other words no one and certainly not I'm asking for a return to all segregated school districts. And we also want the right of any school student to go to any school in the District which is which other rights now that is a right a voluntary transfer. We want a lot of innovative things to make

integration work would work voluntarily. But what doesn't work and the evidence they get clear of this is these forced orders to take 6 year olds for an hour 15 minutes and in one direction. And by the way the blacks don't like that either. We recently took in one of the black legislative districts here showed that blacks closing by 60 40 more margin except those whose children were busted and they opposed by a more than 2 to 1 margin. So I don't think it's popular and if it's not popular with blacks or with whites or with the children or the parents just for whose benefit you might ask is it being good. I don't know I really do not. Well what would you and other Congressman we know legislators go behind any kind of federal funding for alternatives. Magnet programs writing for the exam. Absolutely nothing. I think additional funds for to help those

schools that do. For example would have substandard schools so it is essential. That's one of the problems with school abrasion one of the reasons it didn't work is that some of the schools that they sought to integrate were sub standard either in teachers or in physical plant and that should not be allowed to happen. They ought to be total equality maybe with a little extra edge for those who are better. The more segregated so as to make them more attractive there. There are lot of things that kids should be doing that I would support voluntarily to achieve the segregation but not going through with busing. How would you then. And systems are certain parishes for example washed up parish that still has a dual system. Lake Charles currently has been looked at by end of Lacy Peterson the state as having about 80 percent of schools that are racially identifiable either black or white. What would

you recommend then would you recommend a status quo now that the Justice Department has taken the stance that it has or would you want to see these other alternatives used in those areas I would I would like to see other alternatives that that not only achieve desegregation would but to get through. Senator from your perspective as a resident of northern Louisiana State lawyer and now U.S. Senator can you kind of give us the benefit of your hindsight as to why desegregation has taken so long. Well in one sense it is been it has been recognized by historical standards the social revolution which is taking place in this country has been almost without historical precedent to go from low to the 50s where you have totally These two

totally segregated system not even separate but equal. I mean they wish they were just separate period. It seems as though it should crawl into sales but it pays I guess but when you look at segregation you know being lived that fact in the always late is the mid 60s. And to achieve what we've achieved by historical standards it's very rapid. But it is no question that it has been achieved by a federal court orders off for good or for bad. I think that was the necessary catalyst to get this whole thing started about politically do you think you'll have a black backlash from your anti-Muslim legislation. I hope not because I think blacks who would love God dispassionately and fairly at the issue will recognize first of all that the black citizens across the country and across the state are not are

neither benefited by nor in favor of forced busing. The polls show that a recent poll in East Baton Rouge Parish and a black legislative district show show blacks opposing busing by 60 40 margin except those whose children are bussed in they have voted by 2 to 1 margin hard so I don't think blacks mind large like busing either. They also don't like segregated systems they don't also like on equal education and segregated systems and on equal systems or what they had before we went into these court orders. So I think what we need to do is not turn back the clock not return to the old segregated on equal system but go to a system first of all where school districts are fairly broad not gerrymandered to perpetuate segregation. Secondly where teachers are fairly distributed by reality and skill and you know. Geographically properly distributed. Third that we upgraded

any sub standard physical facilities. And fourth that we use innovative methods such as Magnet School. Oh and that kind of thing to promote desegregation. Will this give us a perfect racial balance. I think not and I frankly I don't think you can ever get that in till you get neighborhoods properly or evenly distributed. I think. As long as you have economic differences in neighborhoods and racial differences in neighborhoods I think there's going to be some in the schools and I think too to transport children across town for more than an hour summit at age 6 I think is a crazy way to try to get that racial balance. And who ever said that a black should do a black student has to attend school with and proper racial balance in order to get a good education to black educate or say that don't say that

you know educate or say that the facts and figures don't say that and the blacks don't want that. So whose benefit are we doing here. I don't know. Hey if we are you know it may be delayed for a week but sometime in October we said. I like educational TV that is. Oh I've been one of the biggest supporters of educational TV and radio public radio that's a. You know there are just certain functions of government that are very important that only the government can do. You know public TV and the radio are too. Well a lot of calls for a pipeline legislation through here that's important.

We convert a lot of plants to coal we've got to be able to get that coal being held up by the rules. Rhonda Wilson. Now what do you believe. Everyone should have the right to their own opinion. H. H version of it should be. An average you know should have equal. Whatever. You know about his own opinion. His own decision. But. Let's. Just spell your last name. It's y l s. S. OK. Kathy tell us what you believe about creation science or evolution. Well I think evolution is a theory and I think people priced too much on that one theory

and I think that they ought to be able to teach the creation science in the classroom because that is to me that's the way it was done. But. I think to people when I was in school I was taught that.