Biography Hawaiʻi; Ruth Keʻelikolani; Interview with Puakea Nogelmeier 11/18/03 #1

You One No, no runoff from You've seen me look Is that being drinking? Sometimes. Or really tired. Suddenly it was really tired. But added a plume. As I was told that I was dignified and with great a plume. And it was actually just exhaustion. Okay. Could you tell us a little bit about what the kingdom of what he was like when Ruth was growing up in the late 1820s, the 1830s? When Ruth was born and a child, she's born in 1826.

Kawiki only had just come to the throne by the death of his brother. So there's a great deal of chaos and change and shuffling. But she is placed under the wing of Ahumano, who is a guiding hand for the nation. And it's still very much a traditional government in that it's not a constitutional monarchy yet. It is controlled by the chiefs. So the court intrigues in the court movements would guide the nation at the time. In interplay with all of the foreign influence that's definitely sweeping. So it's a time of repositioning. But she's under the wing of Kahumano and probably learning very much the power of independent motion. What is Paoloa? Kelly Colony was said to be Paoloa, which is the child of two fathers.

Because Paoloa, when she married Mateo Kekuanoa, was possibly hapai. And she had already been with Kahalaia. And when he passed away, she married to Mateo. But both fathers are acknowledged. Even though Mateo is the acknowledged father of Kahalai Colony, and Kahalaia is also acknowledged. And that's what Paoloa does. It acknowledges the two sires. And how did people look upon a child who was said to be Paoloa? In a traditional sense, that's an honorific. It acknowledges two lineages, two lines of power, two lines of parenthood, in a modern changing legal context that has to be clarified. There's inheritances, there's legal ramifications. So in court, it was clarified that Mateo is the father. But in a traditional sense, it just added to her lineage.

Could you tell us what kind of chief Kahalaia was? And what kind of influence you think she might have had over Kahalaia Colony? Kahalaia Colony was a powerhouse, independent, very strong-willed, very adamant about what she felt was her right and her duty. And I think, as an initial guide for Kahalaia Colony, that had to foster her own independence. And her own decision to follow her heart, her sense of what was pull them. And I think that guided her for much of her life, even though she was only under Kahumanu's guidance for six years. At six or seven Kahu dies, Kahumanu dies. And she is fostered by Kino. That's the second wife of Mateo, also a protégé of Kahumanu, also a strong-willed, independent woman.

So both of these women play a really strong role, I think, in fostering Kahalaia Colony's own identity. Ruth didn't attend the Royal School, but we know she is pretty well educated. Could you comment on how you think she might have received an education? Well, Kahumanu was the initial national advocate for education and literacy. And she personally went into the homes of Makainana to work with them to learn to read. She sent her own court out to be teachers. So Kahalaia Colony, under her tutelage, would have gained literacy, would have gained a good education. Even though the chief's children's school wasn't initiated yet, she would have been taught in missionary homes and in her own home. She would have always had teachers both in a modern literacy and in a traditional literacy.

So she is represented through biographies as either semi-ignorant because she refused to speak English or one of the most brilliant chiefs of her time. How do you think she was different from the other female chiefs of her time of her generation? Kahalaia Colony, perhaps from the other chiefs of her time, there's a larger sphere of them when she's a young woman and that includes her half-sister Victoria Kamaalu. They are ranking and ruling. In fact, they are within the court as is she. Many of the leading chiefs of the middle century are actually a little younger than her.

Queen Emma Pawahi, Lily Uokalami. They're her younger siblings, sort of her younger peers in that sphere. So she's a leading force among them. So one of the ways, she's very, very traditional in her style. She follows very much the responsibility of chiefs. She maintains traditional protocols. She insists on the use of Hawaiian. She's very selective in her incorporation of Western traditions, Western innovations. She's very, very picky about what she will do and what she won't do. Many of the other chiefs are very progressive. They're tutored at the chiefs children's school. They're fluent in English. They're taught much of European and American traditions. The music, the literature. They probably have a little different exposure and a little different acceptance of that.

You can stop right there. So you need me to ask the question again. Yeah, I'll pose it again. Sure, they would work. Although the issue of her speaking Hawaiian and knowing English. Almost, yeah, almost merits its own. So are we rolling? Yes. Okay. So how was it different from the other chiefs of her time? Well, some of the other chiefs, especially those a little bit younger than her, all trained in the chiefs children's school, much exposed to American and European literature, traditions, music. It may have been a little more progressive and accepting of some of the changes where I think Ely Colony was very much a traditionalist. She was very selective in the innovations of the changes that she was willing to incorporate. She never did go for an American diet.

She maintained a very Hawaiian diet. Her feasts were always Hawaiian dishes. Her housing, even though she built and resided in or near beautiful western style homes, she always had the Grass House, Halle O'Lello, Baihulihe. There stands a beautiful two-story mansion. She lives in a Grass House next to it. She was selective in the way that she incorporated the West. And some of the other chiefs were much more embracing. Why do you think Ely Colony refused to speak English? Now about her refusing to speak English, I don't think she refused. She just selected when she would or not. There's a number of references that she could make herself well understood in English when she wanted to. She chose not to, most of the time, and sometimes much to her advantage by letting it be known that she spoke no English. It certainly gave her a language advantage

of understanding what she chose to understand or what she overheard or what she read when perhaps others didn't think she would know. So that may have well worked for her advantage, but she was very adamant about using Hawaiian. It's certainly more fluent in Hawaiian. But trained in the House of Kaumanu in the sweep of literacy that was in motion, she certainly was trained to read and understand English. So her lack of use of it is a personal choice. Why do you think Ely Colony gets a little notice or sometimes a bad guess in the holiness papers of the day? Ely Colony didn't come up on the radar of the Western press, a great deal for probably the first 20 or 30 years of her adult life. Well, she's governed us in Hawaii.

She doesn't play a major role in Honolulu politics and thinks she's not involved a great deal in the Western society that's going on in Honolulu. She tends to involve herself in business and in Hawaiian society. She comes more to the fore as the royal court is diminishing. A number of chiefs have passed away. She comes more into play and is seen as a threat because of her traditional style and her preference for traditional mode. And apparently it had been said that given a choice she would probably expel most of the foreigners. There was not a lot of public image about her that was positive among the Westerners. And again, her refusal to get involved in Western society to speak English, it didn't bode well for interaction with the growing Western economy. This isn't on the question.

How do you think, or I know this is speculation, but how do you think the general population felt about her taking her position or being the way she was? Being a traditionalist as opposed to someone like Powahi or Emma. I think her being a traditionalist was viewed differently from different spheres. The Hawaiian people, the Makayana admired her holding on to traditions, her respect for protocol, her chiefly demeanor. She played very much the role of a traditional chief. Western papers, Western observers, saw it as an oddity, as a throwback, and as difficult to deal with. So it's viewed differently, but I think it was highly respected among her own people. And she was definitely highly respected.

Could you just elaborate, if you can, just a little on that idea of chiefly demeanor, what that might include, and how she related to others? Let me dwell on that. No, no, but it's an important question. What is a chiefly demeanor is that I don't think she didn't gossip, she didn't carry on, and maintained a very dignified presence. This was often mentioned by observers as being sloth-like, but was very much admired among her people as she responded or acted when it was called upon, and thought things through before she made decisions. So the idea of her being large,

of her being unwilling to speak English, was seen in a negative sense by a lot of observers. But it's interesting that Lady Franklin notes quite of her size, in spite of her sort of reticence to engage in conversation and interaction. When she walked, she describes that she walked with such dignity, a massive woman. She said it was a bit between a waddle and a sway, but that it maintained a perfect flow, just the manner in which she's moved around and moves herself helps to paint that picture, I think. I guess, you know, this is just an aside, what I'm kind of interested in is how there's a kind of behavior of the chiefs that is very...

It's comforting, and it's... The common people take pride in, often misinterpreted by Westerners as being hotties, being overbearing, I mean, they're all tyrannical, they're all of these adjectives that you see in how many newspapers describing, not just Ruth, but others. It doesn't seem, you know, you don't see that, those descriptions and Hawaiian language in this paper. Never, and all of the... There's often mentions in the English newspaper of her ungainliness or the fact that her fate and her carriage had to be built so low and so sturdy to hold her, things like that, and that's never mentioned in the Hawaiian press. How do you think these... Could you just comment on those misinterpretations of maybe of the, howley press, do you have anything to say about it?

How... How... Howley observers often misinterpreted the behavior? Well, I think you can make general observations about how Western interpretations of those can be still... They're looking for certain kinds of beauty, for certain kinds of action, for certain kinds of well-spoken intelligence, intelligence represented by vocabulary, but even among the Western press there's differences. The American forces tend to undermine the distinction between chief and commoner in a gold-toured democracy, and there's a great intentional move to separate, to end this separation between chiefs and commoners. All men are created equal. Not counting slaves, of course. And the English observers tend to give a little more credence to the role, to the dignity, to the responsibility of chiefs over the common people. So it's not a single

sweep of Western press that is negative. It's a little mixed. This is the governor of Hawaii from 1855 to 1876. What kind of position is that in the governor? Well, the governors were appointed by the sovereign, and it's really in many ways a Konohiki role, much like the traditional Konohiki, who oversees, it's not a hands-on position necessarily, but it's the person who will select the doers and the persons to carry out the duties of government. So it's the second in command to the sovereign over that island. And do you think it carried a lot of responsibility and skill to be a governor? I think it carried a lot of responsibility, definitely, and different kinds of skills.

I think leadership skills more so than administrative skills. So selection and maintenance of people and getting them to fulfill their roles, definitely a major part. Well, as far as, you know, how did the other O'Leah see Kei Likolani? There's a large body of other O'Leah, but as a general role, they all respected Kei Likolani. She was a high-ranking royal family, had done nothing in her long career to diminish that respect. She'd always maintained her offices and her estates with Savi and with a completion of the duties that were required of a chief of the time. So she carried a lot of respect. She was always referred to as Kuhaku, Kuhlani, Kamea Kei Kei, my Lord, my

Heavenly One, her highness. She was very well respected, and the other chiefly women of her time were her peers and her associates. Could you comment a little about the uneasiness, and I'm using that word, an easiness, between the Kuhlakaoas and the, you know, the last of the Kamehamehas? There's mention made often about the tension between the Kamehameha dynasty and the Kuhlani, and most of that comes about at the reign of Kamehameha the fifth, a lot, a couple of Kuhlani as his reign is going to a close, especially at his death. There's a tug of war over who will succeed him. And there are only a handful of potentials, the three Ali

women, Pawahi, Emma Kei, Kuhlani, perhaps Lily O'Kuhlani to some extent, but David Kuhlakao, they're all of equal lineage. They, any one of them, could be a selection. So, Lunalilo, William Charles Lunalilo, of course, succeeds, Latka, Poaiva, but the sort of jostling, and it's not on their part as much as throughout the populace, for which line should succeed, ends up erupting in a genealogy war that is maybe more public than personal. His personal relations were excellent between David Kuhlakao and Kei Ali Kuhlani, or Kei Ali Kuhlani and Pawahi, Kei Ali Kuhlani and Emma, they're good friends, but the public is jostling as well for which line should succeed. So, Kei Ali Kuhlani is sort of between generations. She's very good friends with David Kuhlakao's mother, Kei Hukalole, and ends up adopting

his younger brother, Lele Yohoku. So, they're very, very close. She sort of sees Kuhlakao as a younger nephew in a way. So, the rift is apparent for five or six years in the newspapers. There's genealogy, it's published, it's corrected, it's contested on both sides, on all sides. Is Emma, Kei Ali Kuhlani and Kei Ali Kuhlakao are the three main lines vying, or people are vying on their behalf. So, it's there, but it's more a public affair than a personal one. Could you just talk about where the genealogical uncertainties about ruthas of Kamehameha have come from, and I guess Pawahi too? Well, there's no uncertainty about the Meza Kamehameha, or of the lineage. Definitely, Kei Ali Kuhl is her great grandfather. It's, or grandfather, because her mother Pawahi

is the daughter of Kei Ali Kuhl. Now, that's the younger brother of Kamehameha, or he claimed it was his son. So, it's my iconic up-o-lay. So, either they are Kamehameha's through the brother's line, or through his own, that was the contest, that was the argument. So, when, when ruths, all right, now I'll get to that later, I'll get to that later. Pawahi's for coughing and coffee. Let me just do that. Did that answer that? Yeah. Okay. There's a question that I meant to ask that I don't think I put it in here. So, when ruth, ruth petitions for, for lots, lands when he dies, there's, you know,

there's a genealogical challenge from Kekwana or his brother, and what's the guy's Lunarila's father? Kind of e-mail. Yeah, kind of e-mail. And there's one other thing, kind of e-mail. Hallelujah. Or levee on behalf of Hallelujah. Maybe. But what is that challenge? What is the challenging? Are they challenging her as, is it the polar thing come up again? So the challenge there is whether the inheritance should go through Matayo Kekwanoa and go to his direct family, or whether it should descend to his daughter, whether it should go to his brother or his daughter, in effect. So the challenge is not so much, and then the question comes up, is Matayo really the

father? Yeah. Or is Kahalea? Yeah. And answer that question again, because I think I made a little noise there. So. Sure. Yeah. And you just like review the, in the, in the, in the, in the death of Lotka Buaiva, there's a genealogical challenge, which would affect the inheritance of his wealth. And it's whether Matayo Kekwanoa is actually the father of Ruth Kaelikolani, or is Kahalea. Because if Kahalea could be proven to be the father, Matayo's brother would inherit all of the lands. And it's clarified in court again. The question had come up before, Matayo claimed in court very clearly. He was the father. Great. That's perfect. Perfect. That's perfect. Perfect sound, mate. Could you comment on, on why Ruth would allow Pawhi to deny her child, and just in general on the, you know, the raising of, or just in general on Hannai, between the other

you? Well, it's hard to say what all the factors would be on allowing Kaelikolani, allowing Pawhi to deny her, her newborn. This is the first child with Isaac Davis. Of course, it's a tradition to allow the child to be raised by another family member. Pawhi is her cousin, very close, close-knit, Pawhi is childless. And Kaelikolani had had two children one died early in the other at 17, I think. This is the first under the new marriage, but her marriage to Isaac Davis was rocky. And that may have played a role in it. They separated after just over a year. Isaac Davis was really upset that she allowed the fostering by Pawhi, but that was her decision. And the child only lived seven months.

So, but it was a tradition to allow a family member, especially a childless one, to raise a child. Could you, you know, this is not on the questions, but do you have any comments to make about the relationship between Pawhi and Ruth? She's much more, you know, how she has, she's much more dainty and progressive and Ruth is really a traditionalist, but it seems like Pawhi really supported Ruth. How did they become so close when they're so different? Pawhi is very modern, she's well-traveled, she's stylish. She's a lot of things that Ruth isn't. Ruth is very traditional, she's very solid, very grounded, she never leaves Hawaii. And yet, they're very, very close and Pawhi is very supportive, she's at her bedside when she passes away.

She's at most of the events that Mark can't equal in his life, they are very close. It may be opposites attracted, maybe that they're different faces of the same time, really carrying a lot of the same background, but expressing it in different ways and sharing each other's experiences at that. Why do you think Lot refused to consider Ruth as an heir to the throne? I think because he, why did Lot refuse to consider Cali Colony as an heir, may have been because he died so suddenly. The question was raised an hour before his death. It had been raised for months and months beforehand, and he had mostly shunned it. He didn't want to a point. He had spoken to different people, the topic was definitely in the air. On his deathbed it was brought up again, and when her name was raised, and there's several different ways this is expressed from observers in the room, that he mostly said she would

not be up to manning the government at the national level, and let it go at that. It may have been that he felt in the face of so much interaction with the West, potential annexation, the power that was at play that Ruth would not have been willing, not so much able but willing to do the interaction necessary as a sovereign. He didn't think she was unintelligent or unable. I really don't believe that. He left her as the governor of Hawaii Island, and he maintained her role not to pull that question on, but obviously not respected Keelikolani's intelligence and her ability, and worked closely with her and her father, their father, to manage the lands.