Martin Agronsky: Evening Edition; 22

ll saying you won and you linger from washington this is our heroes good evening president ford said recently that because of crime in our streets in mr holmes we do not have domestic tranquility and paul supporters reports that one out of every four american household has been hit by crime sometime in the last year nearly one out of two americans say that they're afraid to walk in their neighborhoods at night and crime still ranks above unemployment and the high cost of living as the worst community problem in this country within i don't

evening edition of discussion are increasing crime rate and what can be done to ensure domestic tranquility with pat wald attorney with the mental health law project jerry wilson former chief of police in washington dc and robert sugar the director of superior court operations the us attorney's office in washington dc well i think we might as well begin with the accuser a really shocking statistic that in the last year one out of every four american households and it was sometime try and tackle on but the other statistics last year we had seventeen percent more crime rate went up by seventeen percent over the year before all the statistics say that we have crime that have to grow up as those the obvious question is why she falls la plante martin heard so we're going to look at one is of course that we are becoming

an urban us aside and the other nothing to increasingly people are recognizing that much of the problem is going to look like that the crown stone age group that grew between fifteen and thirty years of age is now at a peak in america as a result of the orbit of them we have to recognize it when you talk about broad crime and that's the fence is that eighty percent of them are committed by a person than the thirty years of age and that group is now a grip on the third day at a peak in an unmarked van and has been reaching that they've all through the nineteen sixties and so if we prove jackie are figured to its logical conclusion what you're saying is that when we get out of this peak period in terms of the agent commission crime that there might be some hope that the rate will subside there is a hope that their re will subside beginning about nineteen eighty four when they drop all time low birth rate begins to take effect on the group now the question is can we wait until nineteen eighty four you pointed out from one of

seventeen percent life care and eighteen percent the first quarter of this year in and we're having increases on top of the increases and then although i think we can look taller than a decade to some reduction in crime that as a matter of those changes in the age distribution of the population nonetheless we have to make effort in the meantime to cope with the problem i had something else very sad aren't i agree with him about the demographic qualities of youth population i think there's one other factor about causes of crime everybody waits is when you talk about social causes of crime the fact remains that that crime committing population which it did under twelve or thirteen these days to thirty and sets on a large group american kids and youth who have been totally failed to be engaged by the major institutions of our society either by the family even by the church either by the school in other words they don't feel a kind of loyalty to our morays to our laws so that somehow we have got ourselves a society

that does not engage in substantial part portion of our population and so they are off again says i'm not suggesting we feel sorry for them for that reason that we don't punish them but the fact remains there have been failures in other parts of our society and it raises the one point i think that the criminal justice system takes too much of a bum rap for not being able to control this rise i think basically we have to realize that there are basic thoughts about people who have not through somehow other social mechanisms when an internal controls or loyalty or compassion toward other people i would agree with but that's as it set out doing that be curable as a bureaucrat like it says bad to let the part of the system the system that is being paid to cope with the problem are saying well i can do something about all the problems but take a realistic assessment of what they can do that i would agree with that

there's two different levels of the problem i think there are two like to talk about two one is a long range from one is unclear why does this particular part of the population in terms of the age groups seemed to be such a conservative the crime the obama problem is wrapped up in statistic the two sides what we going to do right now before we have that long range answer about what seems to be a crime rate that society can live with a throat questions that the states when you study this statistic you find that the people would bounce casale end up by saying we're not all sure that you can move to this conclusion or that conclusion there seems no certainty but what the statistics fruit take your point sure there are social reasons an injury was the limits of years a man with a lot of professional career in dealing with crime but we also have the other side think urban

ization ok and again ok lack of opportunity economically all those things but the fact is that the kids who were brought up in these very adverse circumstances turn out to be perfectly honest and decent and useful human beings a great majority of them and a small minority don't in the same circumstance you know for you extrapolate from that word you'd come out well i would actually no well no we don't know very much about it just like we don't know very much about how to cure poverty how to cure racial bias a lot of other problems that have the saddest of the sixties and carrier to the seventies but your point about why this one kid in a ghetto turn out to be at a great that contributed to society in next door to him lives across and out no white communities to two some degree no one's ever what i'm saying is that my guess is odd pages based began anecdotal things of defendants i've dealt with and that sort of thing is if you really do look you may find

the one kid i had a really strong influence from his family had really a cohesive something to which a child growing up and hang on to get his thighs from think those players are worth sticking to that maybe poverty has nothing to do with that may be wary lives which has nothing to do it and that would be my guess that the the way a human being is formed the way he reacts what makes him become a lawbreaker is america variety the result of riot if circumstances but basically i'll when he decides on a criminal career it means that there really hasn't been a strong yen florence which all societies all societies exist because of institutions are they survive like families like religion like tribal custom they don't live or die on the criminal justice system not to say we should not a great one well you know the league has do something amazing very simple were you come out is a gem to have better human beings saw it as to

produce better your writings to make human beings or at least not to what i'm getting at my lap ow life as i know other people are going to other things as we talked about crime control their ultimate objective is to prevent crime not just to catch the criminal incentive to jail i'm saying that i think the other institutions in our societies and schools are a big one trace most of year of your juvenile backing of wine they were failures in school etcetera that bit those institutions like families unlike school's maybe more important crime control agencies to which we ought to look at our priorities how they are treating kids etc then the actual criminal justice system you know those arguments any more than they know some limited to them the great thing about the question is what do you do small proportion partly condition that a relatively small proportion of the population gets involved in grammar more than you do with them when that they would come

and all the ground up and that's where the crumbled of this is just about the fact that responsibility for thousands of them for for control of those individuals and then and you know the fact that the kid perhaps was absurd couple of other schools if that's correct or in his family have been given the proper support that's that's a shaman obvious art form but also worry about the victims and i think that's where i sort of come out of that for the notion that we really have to do something in terms of a sentencing of criminals one of the significant problem nothing that has arisen in this country in the last decade a decade neither then the increasing tendency of serious criminals to serve very short sentences both through short sentences imposed by judges and i think even more so called short sentences executed by it by correctional facilities with these super that's a teacher dealing with all the time you're going to court and trying to get the set yes that's right the attitude to what were added to your own until a court well this terry was right it's it's an attitude that it's hard to pin down in a general sense i've

been there are for example in superior court forty five different judges there is not a uniformity in sentencing philosophy among those judges it's not the kind of area where there has been much work in any court at working out a consistent philosophy for the court as a whole so it's a question of what judge or before i think that that by and large today in superior court the senses are a pretty realistic on the facts of the cases by march in the post that that's occurred by and large yet said overall i mean there were individual exceptions i think part of the largest problem that i've seen they'd day for last seven years is the lack of any kind of coronation between the prosecutor the court the correction system and each one seems to be focusing on a different kind of philosophy will quote you're talking were professionally are breaking for example there's a value fact now since most of the defendants in urban areas are eighteen to twenty one years old especially for

violent crimes they are eligible for treatment under the youth that in fact is an indeterminate sends provision that means the judges sentence and the institution department corrections decides how long that individual state no matter what the sentence is that's right it's called an indeterminate sentencing can have a maximum for instance the judge under one of the provisions could say i sent you to use that for up to fifteen years with fifteen years isn't a real number it depends on the corrections institution how long they're going to keep the individual their evaluation of how he's doing well he saved or loses it within the us look there's a presumption that evaluation is being made now if in fact as appeared in hearings before a district court judge a couple of years ago the univac is operating in a way in which there's no evaluation yet everyone is automatically released within about twelve months of the time he goes walking

because it appears again i'm dealing with testimony in court to be such an overriding presumption on the part of the department of corrections that the only goal they have is to get the individual back into the community that's what they're aiming for and it does there is a danger that was there is a serious and disruptive behavior on the part of an individual the figures and the testimony supported the fact that no matter what the crime wasn't committed the overwhelming probability was that he would be back streets the district of columbia within twelve months but canceling that because i was involved in a later round of hearings on the youth corrections act in the district court and some of the evidence against those hearing show that's still two years after you're hearing that was still massive overcrowding with the youth facilities down there so that at least one important element entering into the my notes sy correct or incorrect was the fact that you had so many people coming in somebody had the lobby of a limo in those facilities

concerned that about was he a dangerously will go straight to your new concern here we were to be where you should be concerned i greet fairly with you and the question was that the fact that you did not have the facilities the resources meant that you always major presumption in favor of letting somebody know that that is a presumption gentle was that though had grown out of a crucial bloc the national animal and this is not the time to have a woman like it's out of a sign that have been occurring in california messages along the overcrowding a vote as grown out of a presumption or a rather at a loss of incorrect in the last decade that they should not build more rooms and an n you know you dont build prisons than about overcrowding in jezebel program overcrowding when apple event of crumbled out on the street and i think that's one of the factors that has gotten us to where we are today as well upon a death threat think of mandatory prison sentence for syria from that's what the president's proposal is not out and i would hasten death and i think underscore that the proposal is not that that that hold up matt have to serve thirty

years the proposal over the older man to serve three years or four years i mean it should serve a substantial sentence which does not is not the rule at this time and in most jurisdictions of america but let me just at least say go on record as saying that i am against mandatory minimum sentences but i agree with most of the criticisms of the end the terminus sense i think it's bad for the prisoner two years ago when he's coming eyes at the mercy of a parole system i would be very much in favor i think of a system in which there were twenty when deana was sentenced by the judge that was a fixed term which he knew he was going to serve and shorter perhaps the last year a soul being allowed occasional furlough etc to see how he reacts to do the outside community but i am not in favor of the mandatory minimum which says but the judge and every time he gets a particular kind of crime has to impose that sentence i think if you look at the kinds of crimes that come in under the rubric of robbery burglary are even murder you find you do not why give the man say

mandatory sentence to the person who i really provoked by his wife finally arrive there and that you why give to someone out hatchet didn't the lady i think that there has to be that i'm on it some discretion left in the system originally but i would tend to agree that a person going into prison on a know basically he's going to serve a certain time but i think those present one of the better i think one of the problems without about not building more prisons as they had become an owl and most judges in interviews in new york and they research that i've been doing were reluctant to sentence people to prison it was they said i know what's going to happen to him when he does that he is going to be much worse odds and be that those places a terrible i mean if we were a little bit what can change is about improving our prisons we would get a result or i don't is that the willingness and one of the homeless uses a mental prison and you know from your furs would happen soon present to make them a worse criminally really was we went into it and all of this is because you don't have enough friends and you don't have enough oversight facilities you don't have

enough a correctional for me whatever they do it should do in britain on its money really hadn't well it's money in its selection up to now we've often thrown a lot of people didn't deserve to be in prison indiscriminately with that dangerous people who should be in there and as a result they're you haven't used your resources or lack of discretion or is it lack of facilities it's a combination of both but i think he will be more selective about who goes in and they want to be the people who are worried about their hourly billionaire for offenses who don't need to be in the dc jail who don't need to be counted lawyer who could be managed in a more lenient program thereby allowing yourself to keep the people need to be there for a longer time to lead a strong europe undoubtedly a lot of people in britain don't need the power to selecting out of the woods like those trying to make people for a sure that it's all a lot of people behind bars the the rate the armed robbers the the

household burgers as opposed to detectable version of one of the things that has occurred in iran that are correct you know we're a roll call on the commission to four prominent really need to point that carter is walking into someone's opened raw and and and but i think if we're concentrated on those serious crimes such as rape one robbery households are great the strangest kind of salts or smokeless also actually are among friends or our families and and would be all those kind of crumbled on a very certain places that we could eliminate a lot of the fear prominent motion and you know the thing that really worth millions of reckoning on a fable about mahler's and then we can get on the boat about a great challenge and a great song over time the credibility i think that's right and i just like to amplify little bit on what accent i'm i also think it's true some of the people in prisons shouldn't be that but i also think it's true because there hasn't been this identification but some of the people who are not ending up in

prison should be tried to need that kind of rational definition i disagree that we can define category and waved his russian ally that i don't talk about the civilian is an armed robber who has taken another human being threatened that person's life come very close and perhaps as only america would didn't take that person's life is the kind of person who i believe is committed to kind of act that means for some period of time a person should be separated from society about why as if he's convicted well i think you know one of the problems is that we've had we've had a lot of hopes a lot of hopes that that don't seem you'd be handing out yet that we don't have enough knowledge about your hopes about rehabilitation in a general sense they are human problems they're complex problems i'm not saying there are going to be answers but that's what i meant about the long range in the short term right now we have a very serious crime problem and there's a tremendous amount of violent crime being

committed the rates the robberies the workers and right now we have to deal with those people in terms of the protection of the rest of society and a rational what i ask is is everybody agreed that there aren't enough prisons nor not agree or not sure that that if we made a rational kind of judgment that you have and i don't like the prisons we have now even for the dangerous people i think you can make them not more dangerous by not having country clubs but at least some kind of humane institution of a reasonable size like two thousand and sarah but aren't lending money just like one point which i think this is very important our and in the research in new york as we look at these thousands of felony cases that went through the person you describe which i agree with might really weak now none of those in which judges refused to send to present what we found a very briefly was out of every hundred reported major felonies only eight arrests were made that means ninety three the system had no chance to respond to you could unwind the judge if you can blame the system even when the prison in ninety three they just like what

they just know what you know it only eight arrests out of a hundred reported only so that the system is irrelevant to the other ninety three victims of crime as it were all right out of that out of the eight that were arrested are generally only in less than one percent actually went to trial the rest were plea bargained out a plea bargaining maybe a result of the congestion of the system in some cases but in many cases it's a result of the fact that you just didn't have the evidence whether a complainant somehow caught now and so there was no chance that was really no chance to bring it before the judge and a happy and levy that separates the cases that survived the one all the way through to conviction to a judge of the kind you describe got prison sentences now admittedly the attrition was a terrible the dismissals of the plea bargain but it was not late you know leading to mike judge it was the fault that somehow assistance you raise a ford says really quite credible army the terrible

and my benign but it's only conceded nationwide one under ten felonies detective now he's a resident is arrested or i've seen are the lessons learned of cops aren't there enough cops aren't any good with what well it why this is if you take an independent categories lead and a whole lot of oil rises because it's a lot less than one of the reasons we protect all inez is probably one out of thousands as both on or never even reports it's uncertain you'd think but professor such as robbery for example owns my recollection is that the national average of something like three out and robbers aren't resolved in a charge bob lays out there nonetheless when it gets down to those that cases which actually go to trial after they've been killed or the size of south carolina is

probably gets down to trot out of a hundred or something or you know it's a it's a small a show that it's about what are those low is a home is a concentration camp on everest a clear vote the second part is i know there's a lot of there that those who commit a lot of offensive get caught in the dome to call for all that there are a lot of salts watson the data and so and the presumption is that many of those who are serious offenders who are repeat offenders who eventually get called on it trauma not only as has by the attorney general made it extraordinary statement levy he said that the soaring crime rates came from what he called an amazing public acceptance of her also from law enforcement officials were fearful of offending minorities and from judges who are afraid to enforce the criminal law an amazing public acceptance i have great admiration for the man but i

i would not buy that their objectives are violations well the fact is though that while the polls president so calm as the number one party in america and then over the lives and august ten years it's on a very high ticket hasn't been number one at all of the number two or three the fact that you know we hear those kinds of a man on a consistent basis from people to do something about it the myelin sheath the police get go the parking offenses and then there isn't a relatively minor offenses and then the pressures of suspected politicians get rid of those i'm kind of issues is a mother is that they record the parking and vendors and disorderly conduct really affect people every day in both of our robillard well one of the one of the perceptions i've had them makes me tend to disagree at least as far as the district of columbia is concerned well now i'm just saying that the attorney general was speaking nationally yeah i'm dealing with with one jurisdiction and i we do have his prosecutors a unique opportunity to get a kind of a feel of how the

public is feeling because we have grand juries grand juries review all the evidence in felony cases and decide whether or not to be an indictment they are they're expressing their view for a two month period and during that time consistently the citizens of the district of columbia on those grand juries have expressed lost their great concern on their apathy about criminal situation i think they want to know what to do i don't think as apathy i think somebody can get it really is a saying there was an amazing public needs me ask you this and this a buzzword for review the oscars says the soaring crime rate comes from law enforcement officials are fearful of a firm reminder that order i don't know that you say that so much now martin happened to that if you go back thirty years in the late fifties that you can see it one of the problems was that the particular urban police agencies became extraordinarily

relation some of which was needed but nonetheless and can an expanded to some extent i think over did it because they send signals to patrol officers of the bottom but that there was much more important not to or not to create a problem and an end for the plans for that that was necessary but nonetheless the city's south korea problem and often you have a full breakdown and an enforcement of song statute which is where the scene was where they carry guns in a disorderly conduct a larger part of that that the diminishing of disorderly conduct enforcement and a variety of other unfortunate doesn't really go to the problems of increases probably looked at the district of columbia said that there were diminishing rates of arrest for us for disorderly conduct a sign promises that are searching for this judges who were referred to enforce criminal you're dealing with these judges every day are going well at the expensive of sound like a cop but i will repeat what i said earlier

in the end the situation i'm dealing with their forty five different individuals on that i don't think that any one of them could be said to be hopping out of his responsibility there are different philosophies and what i see is one of the things it needs to be done is that any institution like a court asked to devise a uniform after the philosophy of dealing with the problem of sentencing defendants it needs to be that article in uniform that they can remember without salary you know you're still nice gentle neiman does funding provided by public television stations the ford

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