The Great Depression; Interview with Melvin Belli. Part 2; Interview with Ray Haight.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, now I want to talk about 1934, when, the governor's race, and I want to know your experience with the governor's race.

MELVIN BELLI:

Well, I, there I got into the hypocrisy of politics, because money poured into California from the East and all over the country, and again, I was hired by the law school to go out and make speeches for Merriam, who reminded me very much, did then, does now, of Guy Kibbee, and I think he was just about as fit for being a governor, even though he paid me. I guess I made as much money from him, going out and making those speeches, as I made in the first couple years practicing, but he didn't buy my vote, because I think he was kind of awful. I kind of liked the things that Upton Sinclair was saying, but we were instructed by the people who were sending us out that this fellow's going to send us into communism and everything else, so this is where I began to learn the hypocrisy of, I think, Wall Street, or better still, I think, the hypocrisy of a lot of the haves against the have-nots.

INTERVIEWER:

Do you remember much about that campaign, you know, what Upton Sinclair stood for, the kind of program that he—

MELVIN BELLI:

Yeah, he stood for a division of wealth, he stood for a lot of Socialistic activities, he stood for Wall Street, and he stood for those who have rather than those who want it. It was fairly clear cut. It was one of those things you could feel more than you can specify. You couldn't sit down with a piece of paper and put, except on one side, he's voting for the haves, he's voting for the have-nots.

INTERVIEWER:

Was it unusual at that time to be paid as a, to give speeches for a candidate?

MELVIN BELLI:

They had so much money that they even got kids in law school that didn't want to go out and make speeches.

INTERVIEWER:

I'm sorry, can you, can you phrase that by saying who \"they\" is? The Republicans have so much money?

MELVIN BELLI:

Well, the \"they\" is pretty amorphous. It seems everybody was in the campaign. The dean, the politicians, the senators, businessmen, people in the Brookridge Houses, the \"they\" was, seemed like everybody. I mean, it seemed, if you talked about Sinclair, you kinda had to look around to see if you were being watched. The whole campaign was being directed from the East. By the East, I mean the haves in Wall Street and the haves in Washington, and the rumor's coming out that they had Hoover a prisoner in one of the big buildings in New York. That's the only thing that came close to what the government was wondering about, when they had sent us out on the road to see if there was going to be a revolution. But I saw that it looked like people were concerned with the future of the country.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, do you remember what you said in any of the, the kinds of speeches you gave, what you might have said in speeches for Merriam?

MELVIN BELLI:

Well, I think I did a lot better when I got in before juries, and I was a lot more sincere, and it wasn't much longer, much after that that I started trying cases. When I tried cases representing Fr. Romera[?], I was representing condemned men over at San Quentin, I didn't have much better luck into who to vote for, but at least I think I was more sincere.

INTERVIEWER:

But do you remember at all what arguments you may have used, or what kind of audiences you spoke to?

MELVIN BELLI:

Yes, I can remember very well, we would used to go to factories, we would get people when they came out of manufacturing plants, and the bosses would drive them all out one gate. So here we young people would be, there, and we would use this argument, that it's necessary to bring prosperity, it's just around the corner, that we do these things. You could see that the campaign was thoroughly directed by Wall Street, the haves, the government, against the people who were on the other side, being the other side the socialists, the people who were more idealistic.

INTERVIEWER:

Did people ever ask you questions when you spoke, did they ever want—

MELVIN BELLI:

Not very much, I think that they were showing the boss, if he happened to be looking, that they had come out and they were at least listening to the arguments.

INTERVIEWER:

Was this on work time that people did this? Do you remember whether it was like a speech that was given while people were at work, that they were—

MELVIN BELLI:

Yeah, they would, they would give us ten minutes where they would call them, the whistle would blow, and they'd cease working on the assembly line or wherever they were, and then we would give our ten minute harangue or ten minute speech, which was a canned speech. It would be given to us by the fellas that gave us the checks in the law school, or the people running the campaigns back east. It was more a national thing than a local thing, because, really, the people who were running the campaign were afraid that if Sinclair would get in in California, that would lead to a socialist governor here, a Socialist governor back east, and here would come communism. That's what, that's what \"the bosses\" or whoever was directing was afraid of, and it was a scary thing, when I look back on it. And it was a scary thing that they got all of us bright-eyed, supposedly intelligent kids to go for this. I think that we were very hypocritical and very insincere, we were only looking for the money on the speeches that we made. I didn't believe a word I was saying.

INTERVIEWER:

What did—

MELVIN BELLI:

But I did believe the opposite, because I say again, I didn't vote for the bum Guy Kibbee, Merriam, I voted for the other guy. [laughs]

INTERVIEWER:

Did you ever try to find out information about Sinclair, did you ever go to any of his meetings, or listen?

MELVIN BELLI:

No, no, I didn't. I wasn't particularly sold on the socialist concept at that time. I was more concerned about getting a job and practicing law.

INTERVIEWER:

'Cause you remember he was running as a Democrat, that was what it was.

MELVIN BELLI:

Yeah, well, I was a Democrat and am a Democrat.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, you were a Democrat then, when you were giving speeches for Merriam?

MELVIN BELLI:

Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

They didn't care that you were a Democrat?

MELVIN BELLI:

They didn't care what I did, what I said, as long as I had a clean white shirt on, just out of law school, and a bright-eyed young lawyer, this one is voting for Merriam, or Guy Kibbee, and they didn't care what political banner I was coming under.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, you said in your autobiography that every speech you gave for Merriam meant votes for Sinclair. What do you, can you explain that at all?

MELVIN BELLI:

I don't remember saying that, unless what I was saying was, my sincerity leaked through, because I know if I represent a man now, in a criminal case, and think that he is downright guilty, I think that would leak through. As a matter of fact, one of the earliest cases that I had, I represented somebody that I thought was wrong. It was a civil case, it was a doctor, and I thought he was wrong, and I felt that this showed through, and he lost his case. So I went to him after and I told him, I think that I was the reason you lost your case, I don't believe in you. I took him on appeal, we reversed him, we got him a new trial, but I didn't try him the second time, I had someone else try him, because I didn't believe him and I couldn't believe him, and maybe that's what I meant, that every vote I urged for Merriam was a vote against him.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, and please, if you can not wear your glasses, OK?

MELVIN BELLI:

I've put them on and off, but I thought-

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, if for this question you could keep them off, that would be good.

MELVIN BELLI:

Mmm.

INTERVIEWER:

So, if you remember the newsreels that were used, that were considered to be not real newsreels, fake newsreels that were used against Sinclair, about the hobos.

MELVIN BELLI:

Yeah, I think that, I think the government was trying to whip up a fervor among the 'bos, among the have-nots, to make it appear that there was a clear and present danger that the company would be overthrown by these bums. They were trying to show that we, out there, weren't Americans, we weren't sincere, and we weren't patriotic. I think that the most patriotic people in America at that time were the ones who were riding the rails, they believed in the country, they believed in this President Roosevelt when he talked about America, when he says we have only fear to fear, that was one time when I really saw, I think, the heart and soul and the spirit of America, as I rode the rails, and it's stayed with me ever since then, stayed with me when I went with Fr. Romera[?], and I have it to the present time, that's the reason that I take some of the cases that I do now.

[End of Belli interview; beginning of Haight interview]

INTERVIEWER:

—impacted upon your father, and how that, how he changed, because of the Depression.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

Well, he was such a—

INTERVIEWER:

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

My father, Raymond Haight, should I say Raymond Haight?

INTERVIEWER:

You can refer to him as Raymond Haight, or you can refer to him as your father.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

All right.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

—refer to the Depression in the first sentence, a little bit?

INTERVIEWER:

I didn't even let you finish your first sentence, so no.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, you can say that \"my father\", you know, \"the Depression caused a change in my father,\" or whatever.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

OK. All right. The Depression caused a change in my father that was so dramatic, that I'll just, when I look back, it was a total, a total turnaround. He'd been a corporation, conservative lawyer for twentyyears, he, whoops, stop it, he wasn't a conservative lawyer for twentyyears, he was only a conservative lawyer for about—

INTERVIEWER:

No, just keep going.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

OK.

INTERVIEWER:

Start from the beginning, though.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

OK. My father was a, should I start with my dad was changed by the Depression?

INTERVIEWER:

Yes, start from the beginning.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

He—

INTERVIEWER:

Wait, I talked when you talked, so, OK, start.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

INTERVIEWER:

OK. My dad was changed dramatically by the Depression. He had been a conservative corporation lawyer, a Republican, his politics were capitalism, and then 1929 came, and he was really just destroyed. Years later, I found that he had read Norman Thomas, and Henry, Henry George, and 50 to a 100 other economists, and that in 1932 he voted for Norman Thomas, so he voted for the Socialist Party, and so he had gone from being a confirmed capitalistic conservative lawyer, to a very left-wing socialist, not Democrat, but really a socialist, had gone all the way.

INTERVIEWER:

So what happened in 1934? Why did he decide to run for governor? He's back to being a Republican by that point, right?

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

That's right.

INTERVIEWER:

Can you explain to me?

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

He, Dad, the reasons why Dad ran for office are very complicated, I don't know exactly, I don't have any real facts, but I have a lot of hints. Now, one thing was the Depression, and he seemed to feel like, after he'd read all these books, that he knew how to, how to go over, go after, this election. He ran because he was a Republican, and he tried to get the Republican nomination, and Frank Merriam, who had taken over the governorship when Rolph died, who was governor at the time, he couldn't get the Republican nomination, and he did not respect Frank Merriam. He referred to him in the 1934 campaign as a \"Charlie McCarthy\" kind of candidate. The radio in the 1930s had Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy was the dummy that sat on his lap, and Edgar Bergen would tell him what to say. That's how Dad saw Frank Merriam, and he saw Frank Merriam carrying out the same old things during a Depression, and the state needed a whole new approach.

INTERVIEWER:

Did, did your father feel that he could do something different than any other candidate? I mean, it's very unusual to not get a party nomination, and go create your own party.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

That's right. Yes, he definitely felt he could do something different than anybody else.

INTERVIEWER:

I need, again, you to refer, tell me who you're referring to.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

My father definitely felt that he could do something different. For instance, he'd been in politics long enough to know that money was a big factor, so he made the decision that he would not accept any big campaign contributions, which meant that, many years later, that he had to pay off these debts when he died, and mother made sure they were paid off.

INTERVIEWER:

I want to ask you, you referred to him the other day, as—

INTERVIEWER:

OK. That he felt that only, that he was going to run because he felt that only he could do this.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

Dad did feel, he was a kind of a Don Quixote figure, that has a kind of Haight family history. My grandfather, shortly before he died, called me into the room and told me Haights were responsible for California, and for their future, and so forth. I realized that this grandfather of mine, Dad's dad, did the same thing with Dad, made him feel like he had responsibilities, and that he could do them, that in 1867 Henry H. Haight had been a compromise candidate, had come out of nowhere and been elected governor. I know that Dad felt that that part of history might happen with him. One of the things that is so intriguing is, did he think he had a chance? There's no question in my mind, but that he thought he had a chance, and not, I don't think he would have run, if he didn't think he did.

INTERVIEWER:

Again, I need you to tell me who your referring to, when you say \"he\".

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

OK. Dad, I'm sure Dad felt that he had a chance. I don't think Dad would have run, if he didn't think that he had a chance. But he was a Don Quixote figure, because he was, still, he had never run for office, any office he had held had been an appointed office. He was very naive, but somehow he thought he was going to go in there without all the money-strings. Dad felt he could turn the state around, take care of the Depression, and save the state, and so forth.

INTERVIEWER:

OK. Can you tell me about what happened when he announced his candidacy, that the Republican Party tried to bribe him?

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

One of the things that happened to Dad when he announced his candidacy, and when he began to draw votes away from Merriam, which is another story, because there's always been a debate whether he drew more votes away from Sinclair or Merriam. Stay with that?

INTERVIEWER:

Let me kind of make connections, OK?

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

OK.

INTERVIEWER:

So, tell me the story about him announcing his candidacy.

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

OK. When Dad announced his candidacy it upset [coughs] the Republican Party.

INTERVIEWER:

Wait, start again, you—

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

Right. When Dad announced his candidacy, it upset the Republicans. They felt that Sinclair was the greatest menace that, not only the state, but the nation, had ever faced. He had won the Democratic nomination, he was a Communist, and they felt that Dad, having threatened, even at the convention, to take a large percentage of the Republican votes, that he would pull votes away from Merriam, and Sinclair would win the nomination. As a result, as the campaign went along, they, the Republicans, sent different friends of Dad's, or different influential personalities, they offered him money. They offered him whatever post he wanted if Merriam got elected. They had threats. One day I was riding my bicycle home from John Burroughs junior high school, and I ran into a door, a car door, when it opened, and a man came up suddenly and picked me up and helped me, and when I got up back on my bike and kept going, I noticed this man was following me at about five or tenmiles an hour, and I got home, I said, \"Dad, what's going on, there was a man following me,\" and Dad said, \"You have been threatened. I have been told that they're going to kidnap one of you, and so I have a detective following each one of you.\" So even as a 13 year old which is all I can remember, I was aware of the attempts to get Dad to withdraw from the race by the Republicans.

INTERVIEWER:

Was it unusual, I mean, was kidnapping common in those times, or was that unusual?

RAYMOND HAIGHT:

Well, kidnapping was a threat, the famous Lindbergh kidnappings had occurred during this period. My Dad is a lawyer, had sent a couple of detectives to help some of his clients who felt that their children might be kidnapped. This was a real menace, apparently, after, or a threat, or a fear, during that particular period of time. There was one other factor. The Al Capone and the Chicago group had moved west, and so as a result, the mobs and the crime had moved out to the Bay area and to Los Angeles, and so Dad, who had been a police commissioner in 1931, he was aware of the dangers that lurked out there, and so he was responding in kind.