The Great Depression; Interview with Horace Sheffield. Part 2; Interview with Sally Booth. Part 3

INTERVIEWER:

OK, so let's go back to the badge being an entrée into a better life.

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

Yeah, well they...I guess you have to realize in those days that blacks, even if you were a Ph.D., you know, you didn't have access to the better jobs. Many of them worked in foundries or worked in the plants. Ford was a premier place to work, and so fellows had a sense of pride, they had a sense of pride in it, to the extent that many of them wear their badge to church. And of course out in, as far as in the community, they wear the badge and that, you know, was kind of a magnet to the, for the ladies, and, and just, I guess, in summary, it really, it was a kind of pass key to, you know, the good things in life and the community. I mean, you were invited to this or that, you were almost a kind of celebrity in a sense. Minor celebrity, yeah. You worked at, you worked at Ford's. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

I wanted to ask you, going back a little bit, to when you were sixteen, around the Hunger March time, you said that's when you started becoming active. Was there friction between you and your father or what, how was that working?

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

Well, no, my, my dad and I never had a problem in that respect until we tried to organize Ford's some years later. But, clearly, I was on the side of the, the Hunger, Hunger Marches, and my dad wasn't. But I, and that's because I said, three or four years, yeah we're beginning to get active, we're getting to form organizations, and, and our consciousness, our awareness, of the social struggle, obviously, you know, became much greater. It expanded. And I, I, I, from early on I identified with the workers out there. I just somehow, I don't know, it just came about. But I had began to become exposed in high school into, you know, some Marxist groups, yes, some socialist groups, and that began to form, really caused me to begin to form some beliefs of my own. And my dad just felt that really I ought to share his beliefs, and, and, I, I had to do it until I was about eighteen. I said, "Now, Dad, I've got my own!" [laughs] I had my own then, but I didn't tell him, you know.

Could you, would, could you say that your father believed that Henry Ford was, was a friend to colored folk?

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

Unquestionably, my dad had a very high regard for Henry Ford. And, you know, you've got to take it within the context of that time. He thought Ford... ain't no, ain't no question. I mean, look, I've, I've been a union man all my life. And you, when you cut aside all the things, the anti-union things they did, you know... I went to college by working at Ford's. Many, that's true of many other blacks. And, and, and Ford, Henry Ford, by opening his doors, was really, in a country where wages were the most important thing, he provided wages. And when others didn't. And that's why my dad felt so strong about Henry Ford. He became a farmer now and that was, that was back in the, back in the early 30s, 20s. You know, late 20s and 30s. And so to him that meant something, you know, and he was a farmer for years after the year he got here. So, to him, he just, he equated that with, with someone who—kind of the savior of black folks. And I don't argue with it, because I was there and I know, know, what had happened at that time. I know what it meant for black to hires and others not. It made the difference. It made the difference that I was—I could live in a decent home. I had decent clothes. I went to school, a good school. So I know what it meant, and, and, and, and unfortunately some of us, too many of us got to revisit those times now, but I mean that's what it was. That's, and that's why he came out to where he was, the position he did.

INTERVIEWER:

Sure you don't want to sing one of those songs for us?

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

One of those songs... [laughs]

INTERVIEWER:

No?

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

OK. One of those songs?

INTERVIEWER:

What, yeah, do you remember an old song you could—OK, cut it.

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

I'll just add, this was another dimension of a—OK.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, we're ready.

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

There's one thing, though—if you worked at Ford's, there was a regiment you had to follow if you wanted to work there. You didn't find people out in the streets openly saying anti, derogatory, Ford, Henry Ford songs. Now, that came after the union got in, and anybody who tells you that they did, believe me, I mean, you know, they've just been eating too many lotus leaves, because that just didn't happen. And really, you know, retribution from Ford's side was swift and effective: You didn't have a job. And I said that even notwithstanding the things that I, the positive things about Ford. But you know, you, you bought a car. See, if you didn't buy a Ford car, you, you had problems. And, and you know, look, sometimes it extended into your own personal life. See? And I because I know people that it did, that, that it did, and of course, you know, the NLRB thing that came later proved that. But, again, I would still say that, that there was many good things that accrued not only black folks, but to, but to the immigrants, the, the people who came over, and who came from Italy and all these other places who were looked down on also. They, they got jobs at Ford's.

[production discussion]

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

This badge was a badge of distinction back in those days, sixty, seventy years ago. You know, it might even get you a deaconship in a church. It might, may even get you a beautiful lady. Fellows wore this with great pride, openly, and look, you know, if you got out of line with it, you might have a problem, messing with that badge. [laughs]

[production discussion]

HORACE SHEFFIELD:

This badge here was really a badge of distinction back in those days. They, even in the church, they wore it to church. You got respect from the minister. You wore it in the streets, you got respect from the ladies. And so, fellows cherished it. And it got you into places that you otherwise would not have gotten in. It was a kind of a badge of honor. And I, I indicated why people, many people, look to Mr. Ford as a great savior of black folks, but quite a number of them didn't. But this badge spoke for itself. Wearing this badge spoke for itself.

[End of Sheffield interview; beginning of Booth interview]

[Video rolls for a while before the sound comes in]

JON ELSE:

Tell me about visiting the Rouge assembly line.

Sally Booth:

When, when I was a little girl in grade school, when I was in second or third or fourth grade in grade school in Detroit, one of the trips that we always took was to the Rouge plant, to the assembly line in the Rouge plant, the Ford plant. And, and we would walk on a catwalk, some kind of a catwalk over the assembly line so that we looked down on the workers that were, that were working.

We could see them doing, as the cars passed along, they would be, each one would be doing something, and they would do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and that was, that was apparently the point of the assembly line. But the thing that I remember the most was the blast furnaces, which were great, big dark furnaces with men standing in front of them and they'd open the doors and the fire would just shoot out and it would be, it would be this bright, molten-looking fire, and the sparks would fly and the heat would come up. We could feel the heat over the catwalk as we were walking along over the... It would be terribly, terribly hot. And, and we always felt sorry for them in the summertime because we thought \"How could they stand it in the summertime?\" They'd still have to do it no matter what. More?

JON ELSE:

Great.

SALLY BOOTH:

I mean, want more?

JON ELSE:

Yeah, let's keep going. Out of town visitors.

SALLY BOOTH:

Oh. And, and because this was such a, a special thing for Detroit, whenever anybody came to visit us from out of town, why, they would always want to see the assembly line. And so we would go, and I guess they must have had tours because we could always go and take people to visit the assembly line, and this was, this only happened in Detroit. It was a typical Detroit thing, and so we were, we were very proud to show it off, because it was special for us.

JON ELSE:

Great. Let me remind you, you can look anywhere, but don't look right into the lens. It will steal your soul. It's fine to repeat, by the way, to do stuff over and over again. Tell me the story again, and let's, as long or as short as you feel like and let's try to talk about fairy tales and hell.

SALLY BOOTH:

The...I probably remember the blast furnaces the most because it was so dramatic, and it meant more to me perhaps than just the people doing their, their repetitive job because I grew up on fairy tales and I predicated everything through fairy tales. I, I understood everything via fairy tales I think, and it seemed like dungeons, hell. I don't what at seven I thought of, but it was a very dramatic thing to see, and, and scary and exciting and I felt very sorry for these chaps that had to do it all day long, even though it may have been, it was also exciting. It was also very scary, to, to me. Hard work.

JON ELSE:

Excellent. Marionettes.

SALLY BOOTH:

Oh.

The assembly line workers, as I say they did the same thing over and over and over again, and to see it from on top, looking down, was a sort of a strange feeling, because, in a way, they weren't, they looked more like automatons or marionettes than real people, and yet we knew they were people, but even their arm motions would be exactly the same, over and over. It was like, it really was like a human machine, I think. That's what it seemed like to us.

In fact, I guess that's what it was.

JON ELSE:

Fantastic. Great. Let's cut for a second.

JON ELSE:

Again, it's OK for you to repeat. Remember, people will not hear my voice. Can you tell me, whatever, as much of the story as you like, but incorporate once again that you were seven years old. Can you also just talk about the notion of the king's kingdom?

SALLY BOOTH:

I'm not sure that fits in here except in teams of the fairy tale. I thought—

JON ELSE:

Or a magic kingdom.

SALLY BOOTH:

Well, no, it wasn't that so much. I think I remembered the concept of the, of the, of the king in terms of the poor beggars that came around. That certainly fits in with the fairy tales, with the poor beggars who come to the door and, and who are, who knows, princes in disguise, but certainly because my mother had said to me always, \"These are people just like us.\" So that certainly is... somebody in disguise and, and, and having to do something as humiliating and kind of as begging was a hard thing. And I always.. So they were, what, servants of the king in effect, like maybe the people on the assembly line were too. It was like... I could put anything in terms of a fairy tale, but it did seem like there was a man who was very powerful and he owned all these people. He was in charge of them all. Airplane, yeah. Interesting how every bit of sound matters so much.

JON ELSE:

Let's just keep rolling. I'm going to have you start with, \"It seemed as though there was a man.\"

SALLY BOOTH:

Oh the, the, the—I probably sort of figured it in terms of there was a, there was a powerful man in charge of all these things, all these peoples on the assembly line who, he could, he could wind up and make do all these things and, and, and who had, who all the, who had something to do with people being poor and being not...how do I think about it?

JON ELSE:

Not their own masters?

SALLY BOOTH:

Well, no, I'm trying to think how that would be. They were poor and they, well, it doesn't really connect as much as it did before.

JON ELSE:

Let's come back to that. Let's, let's once again do the assembly line. Let me throw out this idea of black and red.

SALLY BOOTH:

The colors. I don't remember so much the light on the assembly line. We could see the people very well and the, the, the furnace doors opening, being so bright was a great contrast, because it looked like it was very dark and very black and then the doors would open and this red gold thing would burst out that would be fire, and then they'd do something and they'd close the doors and they'd close it all off again. It was a very highly dramatic thing in terms of, those colors I remember. I don't know what color, the assembly line didn't seem to have any color to me that I could remember, but the, but the furnace did. The furnace did.

JON ELSE:

Great, Great. I'm going to have you say once again just this little introductory sentence to make sure we have it.

SALLY BOOTH:

That I was a little girl?

JON ELSE:

That you were a little girl, yeah, and that one of the things that you did was school field trips to the Rouge. Just one or two sentences.

JON ELSE:

OK.

SALLY BOOTH:

When I was a little girl in Detroit in grade school, in second and third and fourth grade in the early '30s, we went, always, every year, I think, to a field trip to the Rouge plant, to the assembly line, because this was something that was special for Detroit, and nobody else had it, and it was a new and wonderful thing, and this was the only way we could get to see it. So we'd be taken by our teachers and we'd go to the Rouge plant in Highland Park and walk over the assembly line on a catwalk, on a catwalk up in the air. We'd climb up and look down on the assembly line. And, and there would be these people doing, making cars, and each one would do one thing and one thing and one thing and one thing, over and over and over again, moving their arms in the same way and, and, as the car moved along the line, each person would do one special thing to it. And at one point, at some place along the line there were blast furnaces making steel. As we walked over those we could feel the terrible heat coming up from them, and they'd open the doors and the fire would blaze out in this black darkness down below and this bright red gold fire would blaze out. And they'd do something and poke it with great, big, long things with handles and the doors would shut and the fire would stop again and it would be black. And we could see these figures down below moving around the blast furnaces, and then they'd open the door and all stand out of the way. It was very dramatic and very exciting, and that part I remember the most about, because we felt sorry for these men that were in this terrible, terrible heat down below. In the summertime we thought, \"What did they do in the summertime? How could they...?\" It was like, to use one of my fairy tale's analogies again, it was almost like the dwarfs down in the caverns under the mountain working for the, for the, for the king who made them make gold.laugh Maybe that's too...

JON ELSE:

That's great.