The Great Depression; Interview with Anna Kruchen, Jerry Gawura, and Stella Brown. Part 2

INTERVIEWER:

OK, let's go back, Stella, let's go back over again when you were at the Hunger March and just what you remember. Let's do that.

STELLA BROWN:

Well, you know, I was running, like everybody else. And there were children there, too. But, but I can't seem to remember too much, because in the first place my eyes were, you know, for about two days I could hardly see through them because it was watering too much. But that's about I could remember. I remember people, I don't know, they, I remember they even come to after we, it was over, they even come to my mother's house, you know, some of them, you know.

INTERVIEWER:

Let me have you start again and just, and say when you were at the Hunger March, that, you told me before that you remember people running around and the bullets flying and...

STELLA BROWN:

Yeah, yeah, there were bullets were flying but I didn't even notice it, you know, like know that people were running around like crazy. They were, you know, I guess a lot of them didn't know what was happening. You know, that's something so funny after I remember lot of, you know, that these people were crying and hollering and I, I just didn't know what to think. I really couldn't figure out what was going down until afterwards.

INTERVIEWER:

Why, why were you, why did you go to the Hunger March?

STELLA BROWN:

Well, I belonged to Unemployed Council, and, and we used to, and we used to work with people that were on the welfare, and they couldn't get there welfares. We used to go there and, you know, help them out, you know. That, it was such a, hard to explain, you know, I mean, because people were all hungry then, at that time. There's very few people had jobs. You know, not only that, but it, I could tell you about my dad's friend. He worked in Ford's for years. And then once he come over my father's, he says, \"Mike,\" he got himself drunk, and he says, \"Mike, I love you,\" you know, they were buddies, he says... and I didn't pay attention to him, and he went, you know, and the bank closed, and all the money he had was gone, beside no job. So he lived about, I think, on 52nd Street. He went home and got him, got a gun, and shot himself. You know, people were shooting themself, they hung themselves, you know, because there were, they just couldn't go through all that, you know. I mean, there's a lot of them that like, like even this young guy Billy Goetz, he hung himself in an empty house, you know.

INTERVIEWER:

What did you expect to accomplish that day? Did you have...?

STELLA BROWN:

Well, the unemployment or food, that's what people were fighting for, for food and employment and a place to live. There's a lot of people didn't have a place to live. Just like they have now homeless right now. But, you know, it's a, you know, those people don't understand that people have to eat and they have to sleep, and they've got to have a place to, to get along. Because you'd go, I'd go to Ford's Hospital here, and I'd see a sign, where they'd carry a sign and they says, \"I'll work for food.\" Now, you know, that's ridiculous. Why shouldn't we have enough food, that we have enough, and they, you know, things that they could let people have, but they've got, they have homes, they—

INTERVIEWER:

I think I'm going to interrupt you now, because that's the current, and we want to stay in the past.

INTERVIEWER:

But and now I want to ask Anna, if I can, why did you march that day? Why did you go to the Hunger March? Why did you go to the Hunger March that day in 1932?

ANNA KRUCHEN:

You asking me?

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah.

ANNA KRUCHEN:

Oh! I was in the group of the people, progressive. So, they organized that group to go march, because

we'd been seeing so many people losing their homes, losing their, lot of things that they have, and no job.

As she say it, no meals, no nothing, no place to sleep. Well, that's why I, I went in that group to march.

INTERVIEWER:

Who organized your group?

ANNA KRUCHEN:

I did. [laughs] I was the chairman of the Ukrainians groups in the whole Michigan. And I was having the groups in Hamtramck and in East Detroit and Dearborn and all over. So I was the chairman and I was in it, and that's what we organized, this group to go for march. The same thing, we organized a group that went to Washington to get Social Security, to get—

INTERVIEWER:

OK, I'm going to interrupt you there, because that's later on.

JERRY GAWURA:

Can I interrupt here? I think Mom is just, after all, she is older, and, but, a lot of the people in our neighborhood that worked at Ford's, they had jobs. The Lithuanian family, the Polish family, and there was another Polish family behind us, now they all worked at Ford's, and we knew what the trouble was that they were having. And in the Ukrainian club were a lot of the fellas that did work at Ford's. And this where all this kind, you know, became more prevalent, because of the fact that we organized it but they became more involved because they were involved with Ford's. And they needed the jobs. They need the families to support them. And we were having—because I remember my parents, even though my dad didn't work at Ford's, because of his hand they wouldn't hire him, and he got this poor job. We never did go on welfare. They were very proud. We never got on welfare. But I do remember they made sure we ate even though my mom and dad maybe never ate. But they made sure, we'd just have bologna sandwiches or something, and Mom used to cook a lot of soup, which of course was the main stay of our, you know, of our food for our family. And therefore they took so much to heart, because it involved people that we knew that she knew, and that I knew as a kid. The kids that they, you know, it, it involved them, like this poor family of ten, I mean, I, I'll never forget that family, because they really went through an awful lot. I mean, their clothes were not like as good as my clothes, even though, thank goodness, my mother could sew. And like she said, this mother of this Ford worker was not educated, she had very little education, and yet all these children, well it was hard to supply for them. So, therefore, it took to heart, and, like I say, my mom was very much involved with people all the time. Knowing or hearing anything in the neighborhood, blocks away that she would hear or find somebody that was being evicted, and they would go and try to do something to prevent that. And I think that's why all this, you know, was so much in her, and this being the, of the Ukrainians, and being such an involved person, that's how they got involved in that Ford Hunger March. And it was—

INTERVIEWER:

Did you go to the Ford Hunger March?

JERRY GAWURA:

No, I was just going on thirteen and I was not involved. The only thing I remember, as I say, when Mom came home, she was very much with, you know, her eyes were red and teary-eyed, and all that she had gone through. And of course the only thing that I remember then is being, going with her to the hall where the bodies were laid out from, to go to that funeral. I'll never forget, because to see at my age so many people, I just thought the whole world was there, because there were so many people at the funeral to, that, you know, when you walked down the, the street, it was just jam-packed. Now, I remember that very vividly.

INTERVIEWER:

Tell me more about what you remember about the funeral.

JERRY GAWURA:

Well, like I say, I remember going up the steps in this hall and seeing the men that were laid out. For some reason or other, maybe because Mom had mentioned about Joe York being shot, I remember seeing him in the casket. He was quite a tall fellow, and he had kind of a light brown hair, and he was not very heavy, he was kind of slender, and I remember him the most. Now, I remember Anne Leny's brother, because he was chunkier. And I do remember him, because I was always a chunky, so I remember him being on the chunkier side, dark hair. And I, I can see that in my mind. The other two I don't really remember, but those were some others stayed in my mind. And I do remember, like I say, the, the—

INTERVIEWER #2:

We're just about to run out of film.

INTERVIEWER:

OK. I wanted to ask you what your memories are of the funeral.

STELLA BROWN:

Well, I'll tell you that the funeral, I, I stood guard there, you know, most of us did, you know, I guess, I don't remember how long, an hour, or whatever it is, and they used to change. And when Curtis died, Curtis Williams, I didn't know Curtis but I knew his brother. Well, I did see him when he was dead at, they, they had guards at, you know, guards for him.

INTERVIEWER:

At the first funeral, though, the big funeral march...

STELLA BROWN:

Yeah, the, well, we, I'll tell you, we, from Ferry Hall we marched to Grand Circus Park. And from there I, if I remember correctly, they took, they had the bodies moved to Woodmere Cemetery, and with so many cars going, but I understand, I didn't go, but they wouldn't let everybody in, in the cemetery. And I could remember that much, you know. They wouldn't let everybody, they just let few cars go and the rest, they closed the gates on them. They had these big iron gates.

INTERVIEWER:

Thank you. Anna, I wanted to ask you to, if you would, if you would repeat the story to me about when you were at the Hunger March and you saw Joe York get shot. Could you tell me that story again?

ANNA KRUCHEN:

I was stood in there, what did that street...?

JERRY GAWURA:

Miller Road?

INTERVIEWER #2:

Miller Road.

ANNA KRUCHEN:

Yeah, Miller Road. That we marched to it, and he was on the other side that went over the gate to the forge. And

he was up on the, like, on the fence, and he see me, I was on the Miller Road. And he yelled to me, \"Anna! Anna! They got me!\".

And he put his hand on the chest and he said he, they got him. So afterwards I want to go to him, but people that I was marching with, they won't let me go because that, \"If you go over there, the other side, they may kill you. We don't want to lose you yet.\" So I didn't go to him. But, I see him there, where he fell, and he was hollering, \"Anna, they got me.\" That was all I could tell you. And the, the same thing was, noticed me over there, from the, that group, and they also say, \"Anna! We are here!\" So that was all I could tell, remember. Maybe if this'd been done ten years ago, I would remember more, but since now—

INTERVIEWER:

That's great, though. Really, really.

ANNA KRUCHEN:

At ninety-seven years old, my memory is not there like it used to been.

INTERVIEWER:

That's great, though. Jerry, I wanted to ask you—

ANNA KRUCHEN:

It's, I want to say it. We have so many people, we have two builded homes, Ukrainian and American, and the other

in Dearborn. We've been having a lot of people. Today we haven't got hardly nothing.

ANNA KRUCHEN:

Just American-born youngster, like she is, but it happened that she married a Ukrainian guy, so she keep on. And the other the, that married different nationality—

INTERVIEWER:

I wanted to ask you, you mentioned on the phone when we talked to you before that your mother took you to meetings. I was wondering what you, tell me what you remember about—

JERRY GAWURA:

About the meetings?

INTERVIEWER:

Well, about going. Tell me about—

JERRY GAWURA:

Well, going. Well, like, Mom, as you have heard, being very active, and being in charge of this area from the Ukrainian club, very much left with us. Every time she went somewhere, most of the time we were with her. As Stella had said, she remembers dragging the two kids, because I have a younger brother. And therefore we were always involved. It was not easy sometimes for a kid, because I was always athletic. Even today at 73 I'm still playing volleyball and softball. So it was not easy for me to be going to a meeting all the time and listening to a lot of discussion. But I do think that that had a big impact on me. Especially as I got older, I began to appreciate more all the things that she had gone through, and the benefits that we have gotten from people like her and Stella and, you know, others in that age bracket, of what they did.

INTERVIEWER:

What do you mean when you talk about meetings?

JERRY GAWURA:

Well, the thing I remember about meetings is, you know, people getting up and talking about, you know, the problems that they were facing at that particular time, you know, because sometimes they were talking about not only the Ukrainian culture to, you know, get that, but they were also talking about the problems, that they needed to get jobs, they needed to support each other. So these are the kinds of things I you know, I remember as, as a child listening to them talk, that they had to be well organized just in order for them to get any benefits, and that's what the main part was, for them to be organized so they can get benefits, because that's how she felt. That you could only get things done is if you had people with you, behind you. Individually, it was hard to do anything. So that was her main goal.

INTERVIEWER #2:

Can I have you say that once more, and instead of saying \"she,\" you say, \"My mother understood that you had to be organized.\" Be sure to look over at Leslie.

JERRY GAWURA:

I remember going to meetings with my mother, who was very active in the Ukrainian organization, because she was in charge of this area.

And my mother always was involved in meetings, whereby there was problems. A lot of it had to do with the heritage of the Ukrainian people, the culture, and yet at the same time, everybody had some problem, because the fact that they didn't have the education, they didn't know the language that well, so they had to be more organized in order to be able to get anything. And that was a theme that

I remember my mother always saying, \"If we want to be

able to get anything, and to be

able to get some things done, then we've got to be together to do this. Otherwise, we're not going to get anything done, singly.

It had to be showing the people that we are organized and that we mean to get better conditions for our people.\" And that was the gist of a lot of the meetings that she went to, because not only the Ukrainian club, but of course the Unemployed Council, and that's where they got a lot of the, the understanding from, the Unemployed Council, as to what was going on all over the city. Because her being involved with the Ukrainians and then other groups that were involved, the Lithuanians, the Italians, the Russians, every group, Romanians, all had their own organizations, and going to the Unemployed Council, they learned from each other, and my mother was involved very much in this, because of learning to be with the other organization, the other groups, that's how they become so involved. That's how I think my mother became so involved in the Hunger March, because these people had the same problems, so they all decided to do something about it.

INTERVIEWER:

Great!

INTERVIEWER #2:

Great! [laughs]

INTERVIEWER:

Sorry, I should say that was great. [laughs] OK, thank you.

ANNA KRUCHEN:

Isn't that nice to have somebody to remember me.

INTERVIEWER:

Yes! [laughs]

ANNA KRUCHEN:

She knows that she was left all alone in the house and \"Don't you dare touch that\" and \"Don't touch this—\"

ANNA KRUCHEN:

—just be a child.

JERRY GAWURA:

Sometimes I felt a little bit neglected, that's true.

INTERVIEWER:

I wanted to ask you still about how the, the Communist movement in Detroit, at that time, did you know about it? Were you aware of it?

STELLA BROWN:

Yeah, I belonged to the YCL.

INTERVIEWER:

Could you tell me what that is?

STELLA BROWN:

That's the Young Communist League.

INTERVIEWER #2:

Let's have you start out, \"I belonged to the Young Communist League.\"

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, can I have you start again and say \"At, at, at that time,\" and then tell me what years even, if you like.

STELLA BROWN:

Well, I was about eighteen years old, but you know, one thing,

INTERVIEWER:

Let me stop you. Just say, \"I was eighteen years old and I was a member of the Young Communists,\" and then go on from there.

STELLA BROWN:

Well, we used to help, we used to have, especially when I lived on the West Side, there was a great big group. It was, I think it took up practically a whole auditorium, that's how much young people we have organized there. And there was, you know, most of them were at the Ford Hunger March at the time, but one thing I want to tell you that women used to play big parts in it, young and old, for one reason, that they used to attack men more than they did the women, and the women used to defend the men. They used to do dirty tricks on some of these police. And I mean they would, the policemen were more afraid of a woman than they were a man, because they'd beat up on the man, where they would, had to think twice before they'd touch a woman. And I mean that they, women, were very vicious about that. I could remember one time we went to the welfare in North Detroit, and the guy spoke up, you know, about food. And when he got through, you know, the police start chasing him, so the women got him, and got him away from there somehow. Nobody knows how. Then this is what makes me laugh now. The guys, they say, \"Which,\" the police say, \"Which way did he go? Which way did he go?\" And, you know, and apple man said, \"That way.\" And he was selling apple at the corner. They have Lotsky's furniture now but that used to be a show there. And when he did that—

STELLA BROWN:

—those apples were flying all over the street. These women really got them. They really got him.