The Great Depression; Interview with Charles "Jack" Dempsey Floyd. Part 1

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

OK. Can you tell me some of your earliest memories of your father?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

The first time I ever remember seeing my father, he came to Coffeyville, Kansas, where my mother and her husband lived there, and I lived there with them. And I must've been about five years old or something like that. And I remember

he impressed me, because he was so well dressed and he looked so nice and everything. I thought he looked like a movie star.

And, you know, it's the first time I'd ever seen him, and he really impressed me by the way he looked and the way he talked and the relationship that we had for the first time we met.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Now were, when you were born, then, was your dad actually still in, in prison from the first arrest? Was that...?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well,

my father was, was with, with my mother and I when I was born. But after that, it was only about a year, I think, after that, he was put in prison.

I'm not sure about the dates, but I was very young, and he'd, I hadn't seen him in, you know, four years. Or I'd never remembered seeing him when I was a little baby, but then the first time I think I was about five.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Do you have any favorite stories about when your dad would come to visit you and your mom, what, or your family? I know you had lots of cousins and stuff. What was it like?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, it was like Christmas time or something.

Everybody was happy—

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Oops.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

OK. So what was it like when your dad came to visit you?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, it was really exciting. Everybody was excited about seeing him. And he always would bring presents for people, and, you know, give people, give kids money. And everybody really loved him. I mean, I've, I've never known anybody that really knew my father that didn't like him. And I've known he's been in the newspaper, portrayed as a mad dog killer, and the person like that, but he wasn't that kind of a person. I mean, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but he was really a, a, a wonderful person, and he loved his family and his friends, and it just never, never, never ceases to amaze me how many people still are interested in him, you know. I get letters and calls and stuff, interviews, and different papers and everything. And there, after 50 years, he's still a very popular person, and people always want to know about him, everything, you know.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

You told, you told Leslie a story about him actually coming the middle of the night and bringing, I think, a pig or something.

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Oh, yeah.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

That, was that normal for him, to come in the middle of the night?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Yeah, well he...

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

What, how would it be like? Just tell me the story about it.

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Mostly he'd travel by night to keep from being detected, you know. And that's when we lived on that, you know that picture I showed you, lived out in that—

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

I'm sorry. Could you just, we might show the picture, but if you talk about the picture you showed me, then it doesn't work too well. So talk about how he'd arrive at night?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Yeah, OK. Anyhow. Anyhow, we lived in a, in a, out in the middle of a field on a farm. And he'd have to leave his car on the road and walk in.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

So, let, what was it like?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, he'd usually, my father usually travelled at night. And even if he came in the middle of the night everybody was happy to see him. And he'd usually bring gifts for people and give kids money, and usually bring me a present, like a dog or some kind of a toy or something, you know. And everybody was always glad to see him. I remember one time, I was living with my mother's father and mother, and in the middle of the night my father came and brought a pig. And my grandmother got up and cooked that pig just like a Christmas dinner at three or four o' clock in the morning. And people would always want to do things for him and everything. I remember he told my grandfather, he said, \"Find out who that pig belonged to, and pay him for it.\" He gives him like $10 or something, you know. He said, \"Tell them that, that I really enjoyed it.\" Said, \"The reason I shot that pig was that I was out looking at my tire, and the pig came up and kicked me.\" He was always full of jokes and stuff, you know. He was really a, a, a fun person to be around. I mean, it's kind of hard to believe that Public Enemy number one would be a fun, fun person to be around, but he was. I've never met anybody that really knew him that didn't like him.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

And how did, how'd regular folks, like not your family, but, but how'd they feel about your dad? I mean, I've, I've heard him described as kind of a Robin Hood. Do you have any stories about that?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, I've heard a lot of stories. I've been, you know, been on a tour with a movie one time and on talk shows and stuff, and I've got calls from people that told they'd met him. And people liked to do things for him, you know. Like, if they didn't know him, and he'd, if he'd, like if he had a tire, flat tire, or something, somebody'd come along and change it, he'd pay them for it. And they, they'd always want to tell they'd fixed a tire for Pretty Boy Floyd, or Pretty Boy Floyd gave them a ride. Kids were always saying stuff like that, you know.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

So what was it about the times and the way life was in Depression in Oklahoma, where, where a lot of people were poor farmers, you think made them really kind of admire, and make, make a kind of hero out of your dad?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, they needed a hero about then, you know. The banks were going under, and taking people's money, and foreclosing on farms, and everything. And I think that the people felt that my father was just one of them kind of striking back for all of them.

And, you know, it, it was like you didn't have any TV, or, or many radios in those days, and

they'd follow his escapades in the paper, you know. And it was kind of like, they were pulling for him to stay at large instead of being killed.

He's probably the only criminal I've ever heard of that people wanted to, for him to stay alive and at large instead of being captured.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

So, so they would be willing to hide him, right? They, they hid him out. Do you have any favorite stories about that? Do you know specific instances

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, I know one time when my father came to see us, there was a, a ex-sheriff who was kind of like a bounty hunter, and they had a gun battle, and Erv Kelley was the man's name, and he got killed, and my father got wounded. And my father went to his older brother down at Earlsboro, where he worked in the oil field. And he took him to somebody's house, and they hid him like for a month, until he got recuperated. The doctor would come there and, and doctor him and stuff. And, and my mother and I went down there and we became acquainted with them. They were really nice people, and I stared calling, I started calling them aunt and uncle. I thought they were relatives, you know. They were just people that my uncle knew. And I think my father could go places and tell people who he was, and they would protect him instead of turning him in. I mean, I've heard a lot of instances like that. Even, even when he got killed, the, the lady that gave him his last meal, her brother was getting ready to take him to town somewhere where he could catch a bus at the time, you know, that he was on foot out in the woods and farmland.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

I've heard that he would drop by, you know, and if he needed a meal, after he'd got a meal, he'd always, you know, leave a little money under the plate. Is that correct? Can you describe that for me?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, I've, I've heard that a lot of times, in fact, this lady I'm talking about, her name was Conkle. She told my mother that my father wanted to pay her for the meal, but I don't think she would, would take it. But he, he didn't want to take anything from the common, ordinary working man. He didn't mind taking the banks' money, but he didn't want to take from somebody like that.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Now, I just want to broaden up the picture for a little, little while now. You come from a really big family, I know, in Oklahoma. What, how, how did, other than your dad, how, how did folks in your family make a living?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, most of my family were farmers. My grandfathers on both sides, they were farmers originally. And, and my dad's father at, at, before he was killed, he had a little store, and a little barber chair in there, and he did a little bit of everything, had like a general store. But originally he was a farmer, and my grandfather was a farmer, and my uncles farmed a lot.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

And was it a hard life?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Yeah, it was hard, but it was really a good life, because we always, we didn't have any money, much, but we always had plenty to eat, because we'd grow stuff, and my grandmother'd can things and everything. And I lived close to a river. We used to go fishing. And, you know, you had to do a lot of work during the week, but on the weekends you could go fishing, and do stuff you enjoyed. Ride, we had horses, we'd ride the horses and stuff.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Do you remember anything about the, the, the poverty of the Depression days? Did you feel affected by that?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, you know, you get, if you, if you're born in poverty, you just kind of accept it. But I can remember instances now that, that, that it comes to mind that really brings to mind how poor we really were.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Now, I was asking you about poverty, but I know you have a really interesting story about the little house that, that you lived in, the box car house. Can you tell me about that, what it was like in the summer and winter?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, you look back now and you realize how deeply you were in poverty, you know. I could have a picture of that house, I was telling you, but they called it a box car house. It was made out of one inch boards and it had a, a tar paper roof which wasn't very high above your head. And then over these cracks, when you'd put two boards together, they'd put what's called a slat over that board to keep the wind from coming through. And I know my grandmother used to save all newspapers she could find, and she'd make paste out of flour and water and paste the inside of the house with newspaper, that was papered with newspapers on the inside of the house to keep the wind from coming in. And it was cold in the winter and hot in the summer. And it was just the, the poorest excuse for a house, but, you know, if you're born there, you don't pay much attention to it, but now you look back and you can see how really bad it was. You had no running water, and naturally no heat except wood stoves. And it was a two-room house. There was a kitchen, we had a kitchen and the other room, and they both had beds in them, because there was my grandmother and grandfather, and my two uncles and I lived in the other room. So it was, it was pretty bad. But if you'd been in that, during the time, you don't think about it, but now you look back and you see how bad it really was.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Now, your grand, your grandfather you're talking about, he was a sharecropper? Is that right? Can you tell me a little bit about what his life was like?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

He was a sharecropper.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

I'm sorry. Could you say your, \"my grandfather\"?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

My grandfather, my, my mother's father, was a sharecropper. That's, you live on somebody else's farm, and you raise the crops and everything, and they, when the crops are gathered, they divide it. You get a certain percentage of the farm. It was hard work, because they never had tractors. They always used the horses and mules and stuff, you know. And he worked from daylight to dark, and—

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

—for very little money.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

OK, you were just telling me about your father was a sharecropper, what, your grandfather—

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

My grandfather. Yeah, my grandfather was a sharecropper. He lived on another person's farm that owned the land. He raised the crops, and when the crops were gathered, they would divide it, a certain percentage for each one.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

And then did you and your uncles all work the land, too? Were you a...?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, yeah, I helped. My uncles, they usually did the plowing and everything. I got the hoe. You know, the bottom of the line. You start with the hoe and work your way up to the plow. But I never got up the plow. I always had that hoe in my hand 'til I went in the Navy. But I was always—it was hard work, but, you know, you enjoyed the out, I enjoyed being outdoors and able to, on, you know, on, on the weekends you'd go fishing and hunting and stuff, when I lived close to the creek and river and stuff.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

I was going to ask you now about your dad, and when he had chosen and made this decision to, to rob banks. And did he have a kind of—

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

I was wondering if your dad sort of kind of had a standard procedure for, for going in and robbing a bank. That, if you could describe that, if you know stories about how he did it.

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, I've never really heard too much about it from anybody. But what I've been able to gather by reading the newspapers and everything, he planned his bank robberies. He wasn't just a haphazard person, or, or he wouldn't have stayed at large as long as he did, you know. I'm sure they would what they'd call case the bank, look it over and everything, before they did the robbery. And he always said, I'm, I've, I've talked to my uncles about it, and he always had two ways to get out of town, not just one. You know, if one was blocked, he'd have another way to get out of town. And many times he wouldn't go very far after he got, after he did the bank robbery. He would hide at some farmer's house or something so he wouldn't be captured along the road. And I think he just planned things ahead of time. And, and when he went in, he looked like another banker or businessman or something. He didn't look like bank robber, I suppose, until he started, bank robbers started imitating his style and everything. His, he dressed well, and he'd probably go in and talk to the banker and—

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

You're going to have to do something about the dog.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

So why didn't your dad disguise himself when he went off to do these things?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

I don't know. I think he just felt that he could, you know, he'd been pretty successful getting away from people, hiding, and that kind of thing. And I don't think a disguise would've fooled anybody anyhow. But a lot of people started using his method of operation and dressing like him, and he got blamed for a lot of banks that he really didn't rob. Because I know one time, when we first started school, we, for about six months, my father hadn't done, hadn't been anywhere, and he stayed right there when I first started school. And every week we'd hear where he robbed a bank in Kansas or in Arkansas, or in somewhere. And the other guys got pretty smart, you know. They'd dress like him and did his thing, and he got blamed for it. And, you know, a lot of banks, when they were banks were going broke and everything, they got robbed by their own people. Brother-in-law or somebody'd come in, and they'd rob them, and the, and the bank would be off the hook.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

When, your dad often seemed to take a hostage to get out of, out of town, but he seemed to try to really avoid violence. I was wondering if he ever talked to you about that.

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, I heard a, I heard a real interesting story that my uncle told me about one time my father robbed a bank. He thought maybe that the police had the roads, roads covered or something, so he took two hostages. They had running boards in those days on the cars, so he put one on each side. And after he got out of town about eight or 10 miles, he stopped, and these guys were just petrified, you know, they thought he was going to kill them or something. They'd heard what a mad dog killer and everything he was, probably, you know. And it's natural to be scared when people got guns and everything, you know. So my dad stopped, he said, \"Well, fellas, I hate to put you out here,\" but says, \"You'll probably get a ride back.\" Says, \"We'll have a drink together before you go.\" So he had a bottle in the car, and they all had a drink of whiskey. And, and he left them there and didn't harm them. I've always been glad and proud that my father wasn't the type of person that went in a pistol-whipped people and shot people for no reason at all, you know. I know he's probably killed someone people. He never killed anybody, a banker or a teller or anybody, during a robbery, you know. He, I'm sure some of the police officers that were trying to kill him he killed, but he wasn't the type of person that'd just go in and shoot everybody, take that money. I'm glad that that never happened.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

And when you were growing up, were you aware that people were trying to capture your dad? Did you...

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Oh yeah, I knew. I knew from the, from the start that he was a wanted man. Like, when I, when I to school, I, they put in my school under a fictitious name. My father was known by the name Jack Hamilton. So they entered me in school, I first started school by the name of Jackie Hamilton. And I knew the reason for it, and I was protective of him, you know. I didn't want to see him hurt or anything. So I went along with it, and that the reason to this day I'm still called Jack, which isn't really my name, you know. My real name is Charles Dempsey Floyd.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Were you sort of proud that your father was able to escape? Was it exciting or was it scary?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, it was scary in a way, but you always were relieved to know that if he robbed a bank or something he got away. And it was, you know, always of my mother and my, my mother's, I mean, my dad's relatives near. They were always worried. They knew someday it was going to happen, though, and it was always on their mind. And I know I worried about it, too, even as a child. But, if somebody you love, you're going to, you're going to pull for them to escape or get away. No matter what they've done, you want them to say, you know, you want to be with them. You don't want them hurt.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

When your father did go to prison once, when you were a young boy, but then after that seemed like he really was determined not to get caught, or at least not to go back to prison. Did he talk about that ever?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

Well, he didn't talk to me a lot about things like that, but I've heard it from my uncles and my mother and things, you know. I know he spent five years, I think it was, in prison, when I was just, I think I was about a year old when he went into prison, or maybe four years or something. Anyhow, the early part of my life he was in prison.

And the first time I saw him I was about five, maybe five and a half, years old.

And I think prison was a real bad experience for him, and he probably learned a lot of things that he should've have learned from the older and stuff. I've, I've read where he had older friends that told him how to do things and everything, you know. So I've, I've heard people say that my father said he'd never go back to prison again. And he was captured one time after that, and on the way to prison, he had handcuffs on, he jumped out of the train, or out of the window, and got away from the police officer and escaped. And there was just another example of how he could do things. He probably went to some farmer's house and told them who he was, and they sawed those handcuffs off of him.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

You, you talked before about this one man, Erv Kelley, who, who was sent out, I think he was sent out by the state Bankers Association, kind of to track your dad down. Did you know much about the events of, of that evening? He was coming, was actually coming to you—

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

He was coming to see my mother and I—

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

I'm sorry, could you just say your dad was coming?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

My father was coming to see my mother and I. We were with my grandfather and my grandmother there in Cecil Bennett's farm out about four miles from Bixby. And

it was in the night time.

He usually travelled, it was in the night time.

And Erv Kelley and some other people were staked out.

Evidently, they thought they'd wait there, sometime, they thought maybe my father would be coming in. Erv Kelley was I think more like a bounty hunter. He wasn't really, he was an ex-sheriff or ex-deputy sheriff or something. And they way it happened, I understand, he was, Erv Kelley was behind the chicken house. And the,

in those days you had gates to keep the stock in, and somebody had to stop and open the gate to where we lived. We lived back in the field,

away from the road, you know.

And so my father got out to open the gate, and Erv Kelley stepped out from behind the chicken house

and told him that he was under arrest or whatever, you know. And then there was a gun battle between Erv Kelley and, and George Birdwell and my father. And I don't know who killed him, but somebody killed Erv Kelley, and my father got wounded pretty bad. But I heard about it. But he never made it into the, to see us that time, you know. He just got that close and then had to leave.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

And do you know where he went afterwards?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

I'm sure he went to his older brother's down around Earlsboro. And I'm sure he did. He went down there and he arranged to have a doctor, and arranged for him to have a place to stay until he got healed up.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Can you tell me, there's a story about your brother, your dad had a younger brother, E.W., and can you tell me the story about when E.W. was trying to decide about whether or not he might go, go work with your dad, and what went on between the two of them?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

My father and all his family were close, E.W. and all of his sisters and brothers loved him dearly. And E.W. was younger, and he wanted to go with my father, and my father wouldn't let him do it. And they, they, I think they had a physical fight over it one time, some kind of a skirmish. But anyhow he told him he wanted to, to stay out of that kind of thing. He had a wife and, and young boys, and he knew it wasn't the kind of life that would be good for him.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

So what did he say to E.W., do you know?

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

I really don't know what he said, but I'm sure he just told him that it was no life, you know, it's just, you're constantly running and hiding, and you don't know when you're going to get to see anybody. You might have to sleep in the woods or...it's just a miserable life, you know. It might look exciting to somebody, but you look at the end, that, that, the way it came down and everything. He was constantly on the run. He might have had a lot of money at one time or another, but it didn't do him any good. You know, you have to pay dearly for everything you have done. You got no place to go and really relax or have fun like you should be able to.

TERRY KAY ROCKEFELLER:

Why do you think your dad made this decision? I mean, he made this decision as a pretty young man to go turn to, you know, robbery.

CHARLES DEMPSEY FLOYD:

A life of crime? I think he just, he was a very ambitious person. I've talked to people that he was with and people, you know, and they said it's a shame he got into the wrong thing, because he would probably be successful at anything he did. But he wasn't making much money. He was, he was working as a, working in the wheat harvest up in Kansas, and I don't know how he got, got the, arranged the—