The Great Depression; Interview with St. Clair Bourne. Part 1

DANTE J. JAMES:

Mr. Bourne, what was Harlem like in the 1930s in terms of the culture?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

In 19—around the '30s, Harlem culture was, as I recall, the last part of the Harlem Renaissance. This was a time when people from downtown would come up to Harlem to have a good time in what were called the \"night spots,\" such as the Cotton Club, Connie's Inn. Those are two best known. Also, though, the cultural part of Harlem stemmed from the really, the, what they call the Renaissance, the writers and artists, but the writers particularly, such as Countee Cullen, Claude McKay—oh, it's hard for me to remember sometimes some of the names, but there was a whole group of gifted writers. Oh, Langston Hughes, of course, is one of the most important. Well, that was the cultural Harlem that was generally known.

DANTE J. JAMES:

OK. You mentioned the Cotton Club.

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

Yeah.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Can you tell me a little bit more about Harlem as a playground for rich whites?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

The Harlem of the '20s and up until the beginning of the '30s could have really been called a playground for the rich whites, because this is where they came to actually just discard their inhibitions and have a good time. They felt no compulsion to control their behavior, to put it frankly. And, in a sense, as I recall, it seems to me that they were like the traditional wealthy nobles going among the common people, except that the common people they were going among were also uncommon people.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Now, these, as you refer to them, wealthy rich nobles, to your knowledge, would they have any other contact with the residents and people of Harlem other than coming up here and just for fun?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

These people that came up, actually, their contact with, with Harlem as almost exclusively the playground part, like the Cotton Club, Connie's Inn. They seldom had any contact with the people of Harlem other than when they were up there, and the only people in Harlem they had contact with then were the people who were working. There was waiters, or the performers. Of course, you know, they didn't even have too many taxi drivers in Harlem that got them, because they'd come from downtown.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Tell me a little bit more

Tell me a little bit more about this contact with only waiters and, and workers within the club. Why was it like that?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

Well, when they, when they, when they came to Harlem, they came looking for a good time, and they had known about the existence of these clubs. But in the clubs they would see Negroes, this is what we were called then, [cough]

as their waiters, you know, and various services, but nothing else. And—

DANTE J. JAMES:

Mr. Bourne, you were talking about the Cotton Club.

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

The Cotton Club was probably one of the best known night spots in the country back in the '20s. But it was a night spot and a playground for whites only. The only non-whites you would find in the Cotton Club were the service workers. There were no customers, I mean. All the people who were in there to be entertained were white. Even local people, if they had the money, and not too many, of course, did, but if they had the money, they couldn't get it.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Now, can you give that back to me basically saying the same thing, but not make it specific to the Cotton Club. I mean, night spots in Harlem were that way.

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

Well, you see, I, frankly, the Cotton Club and Connie's Inn were the two major spots. There were other night spots in Harlem, but they were not exclusively playgrounds for whites. There, whites and blacks, or Negroes, could be found. But these were the smaller places. But the two major spots were, well, Connie's was so lucrative as businesses that the management felt that they could afford to keep the Negroes out and attract more whites.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Now, we were talking about what Harlem was like in the '30s. You just gave me the cultural stuff. What was it like in, in its relationship with the government?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

During the '30s, those were the days of the Depression. In fact the Depression was generally considered to start around 1929 with the, the Crash, as they called it. And Harlem didn't, actually the Depression didn't seem to make as much difference to Harlem as it did to the other people, only because the lack of employment and the scarcity of money were hardly a new thing to the Harlemites. They were always existing in a, unfortunately, a low economic level.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Now, did the government, the people in power in 19--, in the early '30s, it was Jimmy Walker, and after that O'Brien for a short period, and then La Guardia. Did they regard Harlem as part of their constituency? Did they respond to the needs of that particular community?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

Well, when you talk about—let me stop that, break. I don't want to start that way. Well, back during the Depression, Harlem was of course a part of New York City, but the local government, as is always politically customary, will only give you as much attention as you give them support. And back in those days, the Harlem vote as a whole was not big enough or decisive enough to control any election. Therefore, I don't, I don't think that I can remember that the local government was responsive in terms of politically rewarding Harlem. They did only what they felt they had to do. And it wasn't too much impetus at that time, because most of the interests, the concerns, of the Negro community, went beyond New York. I mean, they were interested in such things as anti-lynching, and that sort of thing.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Now, did you see a change in that from, from, from, say, the Walker administration to the La Guardia administration, or did things just continue as they were?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

No, I think the, I, I believe that somewhere along the line around that time there came a change, but I think part of it was a reflection of what was going on in Washington. You see, when Roosevelt came in '32, he initiated certain actions which would, could be described as sort of a social or sociological revolution, you know, the various labor relations acts and NRA. These were acts that Roosevelt pushed through to cope with the economic situation with the Depression. I don't think that I can honestly say that he was doing this, at least in my belief, to help any specific group, Negroes, white, or anything else. He just wanted to get the whole economy going. But since it was impossible to improve conditions for one group without having something come down for another group, the Negro situation was slightly improved as a result of that social revolution, and I think that that was reflected in the city government, too. For instance, Jimmy Walker was a playboy, I mean, he, he was for the life, man, and to that degree, he didn't, he wasn't any threat to the Negroes. The people who could play ball with him got a little taste. But it was La Guardia, when La Guardia came along, he was what I guess we'd now call a diplomat. In many ways, he more a maverick also. He said what was on his mind, and he didn't really seem to care whether it was conforming to any particular party line, or—

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

—anything else. Excuse me.

DANTE J. JAMES:

We were talking about, prior to the roll change, differences between Jimmy Walker's administration and La Guardia.

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

Back at the time of the Depression, New York had also experienced the Jimmy Walker thing. I don't know how many people would remember that, but Jimmy was sporting life. When La Guardia came in, he came in as a reformer in a sense. And little Fiorello La Guardia, he was short and stocky, and quite a, quite a character in a sense. He was a maverick. He spoke his mind. And I think, as I recall, most people felt that he was real, sincere in what he was trying to do, whether they agreed with him or not. He was no great Moses leading people to freedom, but, at the same time, he did not try to maintain the situation as it had existed for years before. There was a little lessening of the barriers, and most people that I recall thought that La Guardia was a pretty good man.

DANTE J. JAMES:

In terms of the situation as it existed before, what was the relationship like between Harlem and the Police Department? We talked about Harlem and the government in particular. Tell me about Harlem and the, and the New York Police Department.

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

The police have always been a bit of a problem with Negro communities, primarily because, from the outside, the police were predominantly white. Maybe I shouldn't say it that way, but the fact of the matter is many times people put on the uniform of a policeman and somehow feel that that gives them a status more or less above that of anyone else. They are all of a sudden the sole defenders of public probity, and integrity, and that sort of thing. However, there always were some who were unable to let their own personal prejudices not influence their attitudes, so that there was a tendency on the part of the Harlem community to view some police with a certain amount of suspicion. This was slightly offset by the fact that at the same time they began to get a few more Negroes into the Police Department. For instance, those were the days when Jesse Battle, Sam Battle, became the highest ranking member of the New York Police Department. I think he became a captain, as I recall.

DANTE J. JAMES:

You said that Harlem, in many instances, viewed the Police Department with suspicion. Can you be more specific? Can you give me an example, tell me why?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

When in, in Harlem back in those days, the policemen encountered a situation where you would either have to intervene or make an arrest, there were occasions when, whether rightly or wrongly, he would be seen to be exercising undue force. Now, I can't honestly say that the community was always right, because it's only human if you are doing something and someone comes along, a policeman even, and he interferes with you, you resent him. Now, if the policeman feels that he has to do certain things to stop you, he's going to do it. You in turn are not going to be slow to say that he's being unfair. So, I, I can't judge that, all I can say is that any number of instances where police actions were questioned by the community on the basis that he was only doing this to us because we're not white. And, but that, as a situation, has existed then, and I suppose it still exists.

DANTE J. JAMES:

What about schools? Do you remember schools much during the Depression? What, what were schools like in Harlem?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

The schools in Harlem back in those days were pretty good. In the first place, they weren't as crowded, I expect. I suppose that was because the population wasn't as great, but they only had a regular session from 9 to 3. There were no half-sessions as we have known later. And a great number of the teachers in Harlem—

DANTE J. JAMES:

Schools, you were talking about schools.

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

The schools back in the, those days, the '30s in Harlem, were pretty good. As I remember, course I had finished public schools, yes, had finished my education in the early '30s, but they were all 9 to 3, there were no half-sessions, and there were quite a number of Negro teachers in most of the schools. The, as I remember in Harlem, the principal schools, PS 89, 185th Street, and PS 109, 140th Street, those were for boys. 119 was girls, at 133rd street, and there was one at, I think, 184, down 120-something street. These were all public schools. Wadley was a high school, and it was one of the best high schools in the city. That was 116th street, for girls.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Now, now did the community participate in the schools? Were they active and very supportive of the schools? Describe the feeling. Can you remember?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

I, I remember back in those days that there was a great deal of parent activity and parent interest in the schools, and I think that's one of the reasons why the schools seemed to get, do better. There was parent activity and parent interest, more so, I think, than perhaps later.

DANTE J. JAMES:

We're going to change up here and talk about FDR. 1929, stock market crashes, '32 elections, FDR versus Hoover, FDR wins with a huge landslide, now he comes into office, and the country has great, great problems. Do you remember his first fireside chat?

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

I remember when FDR was elected in '30, in November '32. It was in March 4th, 1933 that he actually was installed, or inaugurated, as they say. He started off his fireside chats, I can't remember exactly when, but I know I used to hear most of them. And what I remember about them mostly is that this was where he worked his charm. He was at his best in really charming the whole country with his fireside chats.

DANTE J. JAMES:

Would do you mean, charming the country? I mean...

ST. CLAIR BOURNE:

When you'd listen to the fireside chat, and when he finished, you might not have been able to say particularly everything that he was talking about, but you had that feeling that, \"Oh, everything is going to be better.\" That's why I said it was charm. It wasn't necessarily accomplishment. It was charm.