The Great Depression; Interview with Walter Mackeral. Part 3; Interview with Regina Mrkonich. Part 1

INTERVIEWER:

Can you finish telling me about the Memorial Day Massacre? How you felt when you heard about it, but you understood that sacrifices had to be made.

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, naturally it was a sad thing when we lose ten mens, so it just wasn't pleasant at all. And we had some of our womens got beat up. Ted Vaughn, the guy I told you about, he almost got shot, but he was running around down there and he didn't know what was happening. He thought there was fire crackers at first, and he said when he looked down and seen some of them guys bleeding, then he's taken off. But it just was a sad thing, you know. Naturally, we hated to see that, but it's just one of those things and that have happened before. And you know, the company used to when they had the power, they'd turn the guns on you, and that's what happened when. We was blessed U.S. Steel though, we didn't have to go through that. That is what they called \"little steel.\"

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Let's cut for a second, I'm sorry.

WALTER MACKERAL:

You didn't know about Benny [unintelligible] did you? You didn't?

INTERVIEWER:

No.

WALTER MACKERAL:

INTERVIEWER:

OK, Phil Murray, what do you remember, what are your impressions of Phil Murray?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, Phil Murray was just a fine labor man, he was really good, and he'd have come here and spoke with us any number of times. I met with Phil Murray several times, and in fact we had some of our Negro meetings, he come here and spoke with us, so he was just a wonderful guy, he was just a real good labor man.

INTERVIEWER:

And Phil Murray, did he do anything to help bring the races together?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, I'm satisfied he did, he was the head of the Steel Workers Organizing Committee, so he had to, he had to do something to bring it together.

INTERVIEWER:

Can you think of anything specifically that you remember?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Oh not just direct, no.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, FDR, can you tell me what FDR meant to your organizing effort?

WALTER MACKERAL:

FDR meant the whole thing to us, he was the one that says organize, and that's one thing that made the guys really go to work and do the job, because he was in our corners, I've said before. Naturally, the steel corporation knew he was for labor in the beginning and that's why they done everything they could to try to block it. So FDR was, he just really was OK, and during some of the Depression times, you know, what I like about him and when he was president I had one guy that, was having trouble with getting relief, yeah with the Mayor Gray spell, with the township trustee. And he wrote President Roosevelt, and President Roosevelt wrote him back, and told him to take that letter and take it back go and get this trustee, and he come by and got me, to go with him, and I went over there with him, and when he walked in this woman she went to try to tell him about, \"Why can you want to write Mr. Roosevelt?\" And he said, \"Well if that's what you want I'll go start it out.\" She says, \"Oh come back, come back, don't bother.\" That's one thing that he did. And I don't know whether you remember that time when they take the man's mule, the Negro's mule down South, well yeah they's [sic] take what they call \"breaking it up,\" you know, his mortgage is his mule, so when he didn't make none they take his mule away from him, so he wrote President Roosevelt, and Roosevelt wrote back to him and got his mule back. [laughs] Bet you didn't know that.

INTERVIEWER:

No, and he got his mule back, huh?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Yeah, he got his mule back. [laughs]

INTERVIEWER:

OK, two more questions. What about the union, OK, are you most proud of when you think back on it? What makes you proud?

WALTER MACKERAL:

What am I proud of? I'm proud because of one thing that they did for us, we was able to be recognized, as we had never been before, especially blacks. We got more out of it, I would say, than the whites did because we was way down on the totem pole, we didn't get anything. Now well what the union has done for us today, even today, through the companies. The companies said they couldn't do this, couldn't do, now what happening, they place our Blue Cross and Blue Shield first.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, we don't want to talk about today though, we want to keep them in the '30s.

WALTER MACKERAL:

Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

And, were you surprised when the union got the contract out of U.S. Steel without strike?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, we was surprised that it happened like it did, but yeah, we wasn't.

INTERVIEWER:

Tell me what you remember about how it happened? How you found out about it?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, what happened, how I found out about it was Henry Johnson, the guy I told you about. I come in one evening from work and he left word with my wife to tell me to go by and pick up his wife and come and meet him in Chicago, and so we did. I picked up his wife and his car and went and met him in Chicago, and when we met him over there, I don't know where it was at now, but anyhow we drove up and was sitting in the car on the streets and he come out and he said to me, he says, \"I understand,\" he said, \"we have come to an agreement in recognition of the union,\" and I said, \"Yeah.\" And he said, \"Well I'm going to find out.\" I said, \"How you going to find out?\" He said, \"I'm going to contact John L. Lewis.\" And so he left and went and contacted John L. Lewis and come back and told me it was a fact, and everything was OK, they had come to an agreement to recognition the union.

INTERVIEWER:

Now how'd you feel when you found out?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, naturally, you know, it felt better because we didn't have to strike [laughs], we didn't have to strike. Naturally we was happy, and that was in 1936, in the Fall sometime, but anyway in 1937 that was when we got buttons, in April 1937 we got our big green buttons that recognized our union, put our buttons on, and so we was happy.

INTERVIEWER:

Let's stop. How much we got Mike? Are we close to the end?

CAMERA CREW MEMBER #2

You have four minutes.

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

This will be Walter Mackeral take eight.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, tell me about the—

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Hold on a second, hold on. OK.

WALTER MACKERAL:

Yeah, I was at that because, you know, Soldier Field is a large place, and naturally he was right out in the middle of that field, you know they had him in some kind of a truck or car you know, and you could see him good, real nice and clear, and when they finished I happened to be sitting right down on the lower edge instead of going way up, and I was down low and he come right by and I got a good view at him, a real good look at him.

INTERVIEWER:

Now, do you remember what the day was like, I mean, was the crowd excited? Was it a sunny day? Just describe to me what the day was like, and how you felt, and why you were there.

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, we was all happy, we was all glad to be there. And naturally we had a parade, we left Gary [coughs], we left Gary that evening with the parade and gone on through in Chicago and through Herman Whiting and picked up guys and went on into this big meeting. Yeah, so naturally we was all, yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

But how do you feel? Do you remember whether it was a sunny day, whether there was kids all over?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well, it was night.

INTERVIEWER:

It was nighttime.

WALTER MACKERAL:

It was night, it was night, it was past night.

INTERVIEWER:

Do you remember anything in particular that President Roosevelt said when he spoke?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Not direct particular, I can't remember what he said no, no not direct.

INTERVIEWER:

I mean, can you remember anything about it, about any kind of detail that you can tell me about the meeting that you can remember?

WALTER MACKERAL:

I just remember we was there. [laughs] And it was something to be there to see the president, that's one of the things in itself, if you can see the president, and I was able to be there to see the president.

INTERVIEWER:

And did it have special meaning to you, the fact that he was so supportive of labor?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Yeah, naturally.

INTERVIEWER:

Let me ask you one more question. You remember the Wagner Act? Remember when that was passed?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Yes, I know when it passed.

INTERVIEWER:

Tell me what you remember about when the Wagner Act was passed, what you all did, how you felt, what you were talking about.

WALTER MACKERAL:

INTERVIEWER:

Now, do you guys remember, do you remember talking about the Wagner Act before it passed, or did you have a party the night it passed, or what? It passed and you said...

WALTER MACKERAL:

Oh, well naturally we had a lot of meetings back at that time and I can't tell you exactly what was said, but we all knew about it and we had discussed the problem many times, I'm satisfied, and I mean because we had meetings regularly then at that time.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, I don't have any more questions. Do you have anything else you want to tell me you feel like I should know?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Hmm..

INTERVIEWER:

You want to stop and think about it?

WALTER MACKERAL:

Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

Stop. You can think about it. You can tell me anything you want to, this is your two minutes, OK? Just talk, just tell that to me about how important it is for people to come together, work together, and then that way you can accomplish things.

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Walter Mackeral take nine.

WALTER MACKERAL:

You ready? OK, yeah, you always do more things together, you've always heard old stories saying \"Together we stand, and divided we fall,\" and so it was just a pleasure when we could understand each other and work together. And as I've said before, we, we, we could, well, it just made it better when we could organize, because back at that time you had a lot of problem with the company, and so it was just wonderful, just wonderful.

INTERVIEWER:

Tell me about how the top people tried to divide. You said something about that.

WALTER MACKERAL:

Well yes, as I said the old English slogan was \"divide and conquer,\" and that was the slogan, it was a fact, I tell you what I have seen, much like some whites they will tell you, if some what guy comes along, well you know good, but then they go back to the white and tell them the same thing about the blacks, now that has happened any number of times, and some people take on that kind of stuff.

[End of Mackeral interview; beginning of Mrkonich interview]

INTERVIEWER:

Look over here. Now, can you tell me when Mike, your husband, began working at Republic Steel, and what it was like?

REGINA MRKONICH:

Well, I can tell you that it was a dirty, filthy rat hole. It was dirty and you had to carry a lunch bucket. If you didn't you wouldn't have any lunch. It was hot, sweaty. No, no, ice. The ice man used to come twice a day when it was hot and throw a couple of blocks of ice in the tubs that they had there. And they had a ladle in the tub, and the men wanted to use the ladle, they'd use it, but my husband didn't like that. A lot of men didn't. They brought their own cup and took it with them when, you know, to drink. And they were fighting for conditions, and their sweat, their clothes were just awful. One day of wearing them, had to, they were full of grease and sweat, and the only time they got any fresh air was from the opening in the back. They just, they just walked away. They couldn't stand it anymore. Well, the company didn't say nothing, 'cause they knew conditions were bad. And then they'd come back and, and go back to work after they got settled. But the conditions were very bad and very dirty. Oh, dirty clothes! They didn't do the laundry like most places did.

INTERVIEWER:

When I was here before, you told me about what you would have to do to Mike's clothes when he brought them home. Can you tell me that again, how you would clean his clothes and what it would take for you to get them clean?

REGINA MRKONICH:

I don't hear you.

INTERVIEWER:

When I came here before, you told me about what you would have to do to Mike's clothes to get them clean, how you would clean them. Could you tell me that again?

REGINA MRKONICH:

With a scrub brush—

INTERVIEWER:

Yes, tell me that again.

REGINA MRKONICH:

And on, on a washboard and a scrub brush, and we used, we called it \"Light\" or something. It was like, it was, it was, it was for grease and things. And we'd put his pants, and trousers, and his shirts, and then we'd put it on the board and we'd use the scrub brush to scrub the grease off. That's the only way we could get it off. There was no other way. And nobody would give it—they had a laundry there, but they said that it went to the laundry one time, and you never saw it again because I guess they used such strong solution. And the men were buying their own clothes that, that the wives were doing the washing.

INTERVIEWER:

Now we have to stop just a second.

INTERVIEWER:

This is good. You're doing very good. Now, what was Mike's job at Republic Steel? What did he do?

REGINA MRKONICH:

He was a second helper in a rolling mill—

INTERVIEWER:

I need for you to tell me, \"My husband Mike was a—\" Can you say and then tell me?

REGINA MRKONICH:

My husband Mike was a second helper in a rolling mill. And when the steel would come, it would go to the first helper, and I don't know what they did. They put something on it, and then it went to the second helper while it was hot. And then I guess when it'd come to Mike's place, then it would fall off, you know, into the, into the order that they got for that type of steel, and that inch of pipe. And then they'd band it with steel, and they'd put it on the, on the side of the mill where the, where all the customers get their, theirs. Then they'd band it and color it. The girls would paint it. If it went to one company, it would be painted blue. If it went to another company, painted red. And then they knew which was which, and they knew which was ten inch and twelve inch. There was ten inch mill and twelve inch mill.

INTERVIEWER:

Now tell me about how dangerous it was working in the mill, both for Mike and for other people. How dangerous was it?

REGINA MRKONICH:

How, how what?

INTERVIEWER:

The work, was the work dangerous? Tell me about the dangers.

REGINA MRKONICH:

Well it was dangerous, yes, very dangerous. It was red hot steel in front of him. Them, them, them steel bars that they rolled, that, that, from the rolling mill...Tony was the roller, and when they fell into that. That was red hot steel! Very dangerous, and they'd stayed away from it, so many, you know, inches apart and that. And I guess one day my husband got aggravated about something, I don't know, and he took a pipe in his hand and he run after the first helper, I don't know. [laughs] He would have killed him, I guess. I don't know they, if bars went too fast. They never found out. But Mike would have lost his job. He had a, he had a temper. He was a...I'll tell you what. I worked in a hospital, you know, and the professors, you know, they were always immaculate and clean. And my husband was very, very clean man, and he didn't like, you know, no dirt or smells or anything, sweat, you know. And he says about, you know, the sweat that, that, that the clothes should be washed, you know, by the company, so they could change them every day. I couldn't wash, we couldn't afford to buy seven pair of pants and seven pair of, seven tops for the men, and their underwear, so they had to work in their, in their clothes three, four days, you know. And they'd take them off and put them by where there was a draft, and, and they—they were shift work, you know, so they could do a lot of things that you can't do in the day time. And I worked in a mill so I understand.

INTERVIEWER:

Good. Now, when did Mike first hear about the union, and...

REGINA MRKONICH:

Well, the first I heard, they were talking—well, U.S. Steel was already organized. They were on 88th Street and Houston Avenue. They had a local already. And then the organizers went, went after, they wanted to organize Republic Steel, because it was the second biggest mill here. So then my husband told me that they were going to start a union, you know. And he says, \"You're going to, you're going to have to help me.\" And I says, \"Me? What am I going to do in a steel mill, you know,\" I said, \"with all that grease and dirt?\" He says, \"Well, talk to the ladies. We want to get..the ladies are the ones that get most of the men in the union, because they stick by their husbands, and if their husbands want to go out and the, the wife says, you know, potatoes are, are not cheap, and we need more money, you know forty-four cents an hour for the laborers.\" We're getting forty-four cents, so now we're at that time in 1937. It's unbelievable, yeah. And so then I says, \"Well, what can I do?\" So then I got some of the women. The community here is Slavic, it's Polish, it's Czech, Yugoslav, and all them. So, I was kind of young yet. My boys were seven and nine when the strike started. And they all wanted me to, me to—the ladies liked me, because we met at showers and this and that, and I would shake 'em up, you know, none of them dance and that. Their husbands were home with the beer, you know. So we, we went together, and I talked to them, and I said, \"Well, Mrs. Evans—,\" you know, I always addressed them as older people, so, \"We, we're were going to have, we're going to make a union. They're going to have a strike, and you tell mister, the mister, that he go out in the strike, 'No stay in the mill,' 'You no be a scab,'\" you know. And she says, \"Oh, son of a bitch.\" She would cuss, you know. She says, \"He no going to be no scab! He going to stay, he going to come out. I,\" she says, \"I no gonna let him stay!\" Then I met other women, you know, and, and told them the same thing. And then they met—we had a meeting at my house, because we had to have a meeting to talk in the group. So then Mrs. Evans came, Miss

came, all these ladies would get together, and they all assured me that their, all their husbands are going to join the union, you know. They're for the union. They're not going to go in, she says some of them she'll get him if he go, you know. And then, then I had the, the meeting, and I says to Mike, \"It looks pretty good,\" I says. \"All the Slovaks and the Czechs,\" I says, \"Their ladies won't, their husbands won't. And they were, they were true, true, and true union men. None, none of them any, they wanted more money and better conditions and—they're very clean people, the foreign people. You can say what you want about them, they're very, very clean about their, their appearance, their clothes, their house, their eat [sic], you know. And the women are the same way, you know. They scrub and wash every day to be clean.

INTERVIEWER:

So what happened after the meeting, after that?

REGINA MRKONICH:

After the meeting, well, then, the organizers, Joe Weber, and I don't know the other organizer that was with Joe Weber...I never got to that. But I know Joe Weber came with another. I don't know if it was George Patterson or there were various men in, in the group that I didn't know. But Joe Weber was the speaker at this meeting at 108 and Green Bay Avenue in a hall, and they got all these husbands—

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

We ran out of film. We have to stop. This is good, okay? This is real good.