The Great Depression; Interview with Billy Rowe. Part 1

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

—twenty-four, sound roll thirteen, on Billy Rowe.

INTERVIEWER:

OK. First let's talk about, even before he came to New York, even before you met him, tell me how folks, yourself especially, started to hear about Joe Louis, what were you starting to hear out in the, before he even came to New York?

BILLY ROWE:

Well, the word was out that Joe Louis was the sensation that people would begin to hear about, there was word that he had broken down the headline spaces in the daily newspapers, and was being quoted and talked about. Everybody says, Who is this fellow, gosh, wow, wow, you know. Everybody wanted to hear about, not only just hear about him, but they wanted to see Joe Louis. But those weren't the days when you could jump on a train or a plane and go out, see a fight, because it was kind of in the, and the Depression was on, I believe, then, and things weren't that easy. But very fast the name itself turned out to be, we got the feeling that, here at last, on top of Jack Johnson, that here at last was a fighter with pride and purpose.

INTERVIEWER:

What was it about him that people were hearing, I mean...?

BILLY ROWE:

His manner of, it seemed that the press gave his manner of farming a whole different outlay than it ordinarily would be for prizefighters, because prizefighters were not that great in peoples' minds in that division, the heavyweight champion division. They were all, they seemed to be very kind to Joe Louis, but it turned out that they weren't kind to Joe Louis, they were really stating facts, because there was this nice, nice fella, there was this fella with strength, and there was this fella who was walk—going into rings and knocking people out, so everybody in New York looked forward to seeing this Herculean character, who suddenly stepped into the ring and started fighting.

INTERVIEWER:

How did the white, how did the white folks feel about it?

BILLY ROWE:

Well, the white sports fans, it seemed that those we were in contact with had the same feeling. Fighting was something that people enjoyed or liked to see, why, I don't know. That had come along at that time, and they weren't, any of those you even came in contact with, that you got the feeling that hey, here's a guy who's, or a woman, a person who's prejudiced. You, the person either was for or against fighters, regardless of what their color was, regardless of what they knew. That's the feeling we got at that moment. Things seemed to sorta, coming together. Harlem itself, of course, was a real great place in those days, it was the Mecca of all of us who, sooner or later we all wanted to come to New York. And—

INTERVIEWER:

Excuse me, can you look at me a little bit more when you talk?

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

We need to stop so I can—

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Camera roll twenty-four.

INTERVIEWER:

Before Joe Louis came on the scene, at that time, in the Depression, people were very wary of black boxers 'cause of Jack Johnson. We'll have known, or we'll talk about Jack Johnson in the film so you don't have to tell me about him.

BILLY ROWE:

OK.

INTERVIEWER:

—but what was it about Joe Louis that changed all that?

BILLY ROWE:

There seemed to be, in my feeling about Joe, he seemed to be just a nice person. He wasn't boring, he didn't bore you with stories, or he didn't run off doing funny things. He had an idea, all the things he wanted to do, and he'd say to somebody, this is what you're going to do. That's how we became good friends, I presume, because, being, having been with the _Pittsburgh Courier_ this long, long length of time at that point, and sort of, as they used to call me the 'colored Walter Winchell'. Joe didn't like that, you know, and he said, 'He's not the colored Walter Winchell, he's Billy Rowe.' And people would say when he was going, we'd go around together all the time, I'd meet him, and [laughs] they'd say, 'You don't want to go running around with this guy, this guy's a Communist, for, he'd write you up, you know.' He said, 'Well, that's why I'm going around with him, because he couldn't write me up without writing himself up.' [laughs] He was that kind of a person, just a nice, easy-going person.

INTERVIEWER:

Do you know much about, can you tell me about Chappie, and Roxborough, and Black, I mean, wasn't it unusual for a fighter like that to have an all-black management team?

BILLY ROWE:

By all means, that in itself was history.

INTERVIEWER:

Can you tell me about, can you start that sentence over again?

BILLY ROWE:

That, that of course is history, and they were so, they were quite unusual themselves, they were not exactly like managers usually are. Joe Louis was their main eye thing, their eye, their arm, everything was for Joe Louis, and Joe realized that, and Joe, I think he felt it.

INTERVIEWER:

But how was it for the rest of the world, that here was this black fighter, and he had black managers, was that odd, was that a different kind of thing?

BILLY ROWE:

No, I think it brought on a kind of respect for him, that the others-

INTERVIEWER:

Now, you have, again, please start off by saying, If they have a black, you know, that, By having all black management—

BILLY ROWE:

Yeah, by having all-black managers, naturally, sort of, even gave us another feeling, this to us was the greatest such thing to happen, black managers, because Madison Square Gardens and the rest, the people always controlled all that, with all the fighters, white or black. For Joe Louis to come into town, just the other way around, it was a real great feeling for us, we felt that we had become a part, really become a part of the whole deal.

INTERVIEWER:

Great, good. What kind of, what kind of things did Joe Louis, you know, he's a big hero for a lot of people, what kind of things did he do, specific things, and you've told me about them. Let's stay in the '30s. What kinds of things did he do to kind of, overcome discrimination?

BILLY ROWE:

Well, Joe Louis, in his battle against discrimination, was carried deep into the whole system, because of the fact that he was this great fighter that everybody wanted to see, so Joe could speak out and make certain demands by just being Joe Louis, he didn't have to, he was not a fighting, outspoken person, he was just there. You just got that feeling, both white and black, got that feeling, and of course in those days the word was \"colored,\" and it wasn't a matter of being black, or saying that you were black. And, it's—

INTERVIEWER:

So, what kinds of things did he do? And again, could you look at me a little bit more when you—

BILLY ROWE:

Joe, Joe Louis, to me and most people, of course, was a silent warrior, he would go right to the top of whatever was necessary to make changes. If it had to do with boxing, he would go to the boxing promoters and would make the changes. There were a case quite some time after he got to be the champion and became Joe Louis, where he wanted to break down discrimination in golf, and he didn't go beating around the bush—

INTERVIEWER:

OK, again, we have to talk about the '30s, but you told me stuff, you just told me earlier.

BILLY ROWE:

That was in the '30s.

INTERVIEWER:

There were the hotels, and things like that, those are the kinds of incidents I'm talking about, the quiet stuff, so, can we start again and say, just, some of the things Joe would do to break down discrimination, just in his own world.

BILLY ROWE:

Well, for instance, Joe Louis was, you know, he was always invited to the finest hotels in America, but Joe would not accept lodging at a hotel if that hotel discriminated against, if I couldn't get a room at that hotel the next day by myself, he would not accept a room that night from management because he was Joe Louis. And I suppose it got around, people began to talk about it, and that's how he did that particular situation, took care of that one.

INTERVIEWER:

You know, you told me once in a previous conversation, you said that Joe, you felt like Joe, I think we were talking about the Depression, that Joe Louis fit the times. What did you mean by that, what does that mean?

BILLY ROWE:

Well, the Depression was on and Joe was getting a big, you know, his salary, the salary they quoted in the papers for fighting and how much you got for knocking somebody out, was a big thing, and we'd never heard of that kind of money before. He'd pass out dollars to people, to guys on the street who would beg him for a cup of coffee or something like that, and there were times when he didn't have money in his pockets, so he would take it out of his friends' pockets. He'd always give it back to us, though.

INTERVIEWER:

Great. Why do you think Joe was such a big hero for black people, what was it, with all the heroes that there were in society, in black society, why Joe Louis, why a boxer?

BILLY ROWE:

Well, I don't think it, just because he was a boxer, I think that it was because of Joe Louis just being Joe Louis, he was—it's strange, he was never, he was a massive person as far as writing was concerned and as far as people talking about him, radio and television, which did a lot on him in those days, which was quite different from before. He was still, like, very simple. He would still shake your hand, he would shake the hand of a guy in the gutters as quick as he'd shake the hand of a guy who was coming out of a major airplane situation. I think that's why—

INTERVIEWER:

But people, people on the street, people in the South, people didn't know about that, why did they sit there listening to their radios, what was it that kept them glued to their radios for Joe Louis?

BILLY ROWE:

Because they, they, the people who didn't look at television or didn't have television, but they all read, they read The Pittsburgh Courier, they read the Afro-American, they read the Chicago Defender, and they read Ebony Magazine and things. Those things, from, they got the message, and they added to it, because it was a time when you felt that you wanted to feel good, and Joe Louis made us feel good.

INTERVIEWER:

OK. When he finally came to New York, he fought—

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Let's change mag tracks.

INTERVIEWER:

OK.

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Take three, change camera roll.

INTERVIEWER:

So, tell me what the reaction in Harlem was when they heard about Mussolini in Ethiopia, and even though it was thousands of miles away, it seems to me people took it very personally. What was that about? Tell me about Harlem when they heard about that.

BILLY ROWE:

Well, as far as Harlem and Ethiopia is concerned, it suddenly gave us an understanding, began to know about ourselves, where we came from, and the pride in the fact that here was a gentleman who was the head of a nation, and you never had that opportunity very much before. The whole, I think the whole country itself, was in awe about, Ethiopia, and it just rubbed off on us naturally, we all felt very proud about that.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, but when Hitler, when Hitler marched on, I mean, when Mussolini marched on them, how did people feel about it then? This very powerful white nation marching on this...

BILLY ROWE:

Well, when Mussolini marched on Ethiopia, a number of us were ready to go. Put on our uniforms, grab our guns. It gave, it brought Mussolini into America, into black America, with a completely different attitude that was going, that was for him all along. Before that time, and as far as it was concerned, with Ethiopia it was devastating, mentally devastating.

INTERVIEWER:

So—

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Go ahead.

INTERVIEWER:

So, when Joe came to New York, he fought an Italian, just about the same time, Primo Carnera, the Italian giant. So here's this black man fighting this Italian, did the people in Harlem, did the black, did the black folks, did they see a significance in that that related to this Ethiopia thing?

BILLY ROWE:

I couldn't, couldn't really frankly say yes or no to that particular statement. I know that they were all, they were pulling for Joe Louis, so you automatically assume, particularly us newspaper guys, we assume that they were for Joe Louis because he was Joe Louis, not because he was fighting a person who had to do with war against Ethio—a nation which had, against Ethiopia.

INTERVIEWER:

Do you remember that fight, did you go to that fight?

BILLY ROWE:

Oh yeah, that was the first one, I think, that I went to, or it might have been the first one, because I was asked to get, take the names of people by the The Pittsburgh Courier, that I was working for at that point, to take the names of the people that, coming in from out of town to the fight. In fact, the funny, the Pittsburgh, actually, that got me my job, it was suddenly made permanent now because I was supposed to know everybody. When I told Joe, I said, I gotta talk to you after the fight, he said, Well, come to the dressing room, I says, I don't know, how they going to let me in? He said, Just tell them you got the OK from me. And he laughed, soon enough, from then on it worked out. We became real friendly behind all that.

INTERVIEWER:

Do you remember the fight itself?

BILLY ROWE:

The fight with Carnera?

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah.

BILLY ROWE:

Oh yes, I remember the fight itself, because, actually, the feeling was, there was a great chance for this man beating Joe, because he was big, and strong, and he talked a lot and what have you. And the streets, everybody was waiting to see what happened, and you know, of course, when Joe won, then we sort of marched, almost like a shackle, a practical march down 10th Ave. Almost, they said, but we would never let Joe get into that atmosphere, despite the fact that, there wasn't a feeling that anybody was going to harm Joe Louis, but you never know what could happen. So when I looked around for the automobile, he was gone. [laughs]

INTERVIEWER:

What was the reaction in Harlem after he won?

BILLY ROWE:

Oh, wow, it was a holiday.

INTERVIEWER:

OK. Did you know his family very well? Did you know his family, his mother, his sisters, did you know—

BILLY ROWE:

Yeah, I knew them pretty, pretty good.

INTERVIEWER:

What kind of background did Joe Louis come from?

BILLY ROWE:

A regular, a real Southern-type, a real family Southern-type family, I always had that feeling. It was always just, complete love and understanding in that family, I don't recall any antagonism at any time. It was just something warm. I have a picture of her which I'll show you, and she was such a nice lady.

INTERVIEWER:

Were they, were they afraid for him, were they nervous about him fighting? I mean, when they went in the ring against Carnera, like, this great, big, giant guy, and there's Joe. Were they, how did they feel about him, were they afraid he would get hurt?

BILLY ROWE:

I doubt that seriously, I think that everybody had a feeling, except his mother, had a feeling that Joe was going to win the fight. I always felt that she had a certain fear, because, I don't ever recall seeing her at a fight.

INTERVIEWER:

Can you say that again and say \"his mother,\" because we don't know who you're talking about.

BILLY ROWE:

Well, in fact, I don't ever recall seeing his mother at a fight. Now, she might have been to some, but I've never seen her at one. In fact, I don't ever remember, I've never seen her at the training camp, but she loved her boy.

INTERVIEWER:

Now, tell me about, you've told me a lot about that first Schmeling fight, and what was going on at the training camp, and, and all that sort of thing. Tell me, you had, there was a different feeling about that one, tell me about that one. Actually, ultimately you ended up getting thrown out of camp, right? So tell us what was going on there before that first Schmeling fight.

BILLY ROWE:

Well, I think that, just to start with, now, a lot of us believe and I certainly believe, that the Schmeling fight was the best thing that ever happened to Joe Louis, it made Joe Louis return to being Joe Louis, the kind of Joe Louis that he was, because originally, he was under the impression that this was going to be a knockover, no problem, knock this guy out and so on, down the line. Even changed his training camp, which of course was different from what we expected, from even what his trainer wanted, as I understand, and he was kind of fooling around, you know. Joe was never an outlandish guy, and never really that type of flamboyant person, but he began to get, feel that way, and we talked to him about it, and he told me, You don't have to be here, you know. So I left, and I went up, way up, in your neighborhood, and coming back, when the fight was on and he got whipped, I said, Good for him, because I betted, I'd made a bet that he was going to lose this fight.

INTERVIEWER:

Can you start over and tell me, in more detail, tell me, go back and tell me about where you were when you heard that fight, tell me, were you in the car, were you home, where were you when you heard that fight, and tell me what you were thinking when you were listening to that fight.

BILLY ROWE:

Well, when I was listening to that fight, I was-

INTERVIEWER:

When you were listening to which fight, you have to tell me—

BILLY ROWE:

When I listened to the Joe Louis battle with—

INTERVIEWER:

Excuse me, you're going to have to look up...

BILLY ROWE:

I'm trying to, I got, I'm getting—

INTERVIEWER:

Would you like to take a break? Stop, [unintelligible]

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

BILLY ROWE:

Yeah, 'cause I got a little...

INTERVIEWER:

Would you like to take a break?

BILLY ROWE:

Yeah, I got a little screwed up on that.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, so, now go back and tell me a little bit more about Joe's attitude, and how he'd won all those fights in the training camp before the first Schmeling fight, what he was feeling, what he thought he was going to do.

BILLY ROWE:

Actually, I believe that at that stage of his life, Joe really believed that he was invincible, and that there wasn't anybody that could beat him, so he did a number of things that his trainer did not want him to do, in fact, he wanted to train, almost like training himself. He changed the camp, and everything, and this was devastating to all of us, and we would say things to him, and he would then say things like, \"I'm the fighter, you know, you don't, you don't have to be here, see.\" So I said, \"Well, I'll get out of here.\" He said, \"Well, OK. You want me—\" he even asked me if he wanted me to buy him some gas, I'll always remember that, and it went on. So, when the fight was scheduled, and I did not have a ticket to go to the fight, and I wasn't going to ask him for a ticket, like as usual, and so we went, I think we wound up, wound up in the bluffs or someplace, we, my wife and I went, 'cause we were driving back during the fight. And so of course, it happened to him, he got knocked out, and I had made a bet on him, even, I had bet, bet, a friend of mine bought a shirt, so I won this shirt, but I've never worn it, by the way.

INTERVIEWER:

You have to go back and tell me that again, because it's not clear to me who you bet on.

BILLY ROWE:

I bet against Joe, I bet that he was going to lose 'cause of the way he was acting, and what have you. I never wore the, bet a shirt, never, never worn it, in fact I think I might have gotten that shirt, because it was the saddest day that ever happened to us who were on Joe's team. Harlem itself was, as you know, you probably remember, recall, if you were around my age, and you'd find out that there was great sadness within the community, but it was still the best thing that ever happened to Joe Louis, because he came back to being Joe Louis again. I went down to the hotel to see him and his jaw was all swollen out, he says, Well, you won the fight. I said, I wasn't in there fighting. Behind that, he says, Well, come on in if you're going to come in, if you're not I'm going to close the door, 'cause I'm going to bed.

INTERVIEWER:

Great, OK, thank you.

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Let's change.

INTERVIEWER:

We running out

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Yeah, we have about twelve feet.