WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Sue O'Connell. This is the Cali Crossley Show. An old saying goes A neighborhood is where when you leave it you get beat up in Jamaica Plain You could say the reverse is true. You enter the neighborhood and you get beat up. At least that's how Wholefoods might see it. A debate is raging in JP. Foods the new kid on the block has kicked out old timer Hi-Lo who's an institution that has offered generations of Latino's their native fare. Many residents fear Whole Foods could accelerate gentrification in spell R.I.P. for diversity. Some welcome quality food which may also raise their property values from JP We hit New Hampshire to look at how the presidential race is unfolding. Up next politics from grocery stores to the Granite State. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Microsoft is

snapping up Skype one of the world's leading Internet communications companies. The price tag eight and a half billion dollars in cash. NPR's Wendy Kaufman says the companies expect the deal will increase the availability of real time video and voice communications for consumers and businesses. It's Microsoft's largest acquisition ever and will instantly provide the company with a very strong presence in voice and video communication. Microsoft hopes the acquisition will boost it on the web a place where it's often struggled and ate its mobile phone offerings which lag far behind Google and Apple. Skype has one hundred seventy million users. It's one of the most popular Internet communication services anywhere but the services are largely free. And Skype has not made much in the way of profit. Microsoft hopes to change that by integrating Skype with its link outlook and X-box. Skype is being sold by a group of investors led by Silver Lake Partners. They purchased Skype about a year and a half ago Wendy Kaufman NPR News.

A Senate hearing is under way on how much information smartphones collect about users including their locations and how long it's kept. NPR's Paul Brown reports a subcommittee chairman is taking a clear stand as the hearing opens. Minnesota Senator Al Franken says where once people were most concerned with government intrusion into their privacy. Now an equally big concern is what businesses are doing with huge amounts of information they collect. And he's laying out his position. I believe that consumers have a fundamental right to know what data is being collected about them. I also believe they have a right to the side whether they want to share that information and with whom they want to share it. And. When Apple and Google executives are testifying after researchers revealed their smartphones keep track of users locations the companies say they're trying to provide the best service not stalk customers. Paul Brown NPR News Washington. Massive cleanup begins in flooded areas of Memphis where the Mississippi River crested

this morning at just under 48 feet just short of its record. Army Corps of Engineers spokesman Bob Anderson says the levee system in the area is performing as designed but it's under a lot of stress. It's never had the kind of pressure it's experiencing right now and we're expecting a crest to be slow falling so it's looking like we could see flooding throughout the system all the way into June possibly. Authorities say they don't expect the Mississippi River to begin receding for several more days. Here's the latest from Wall Street Dow Jones industrial average up thirty eight points at twelve thousand seven hundred twenty three in trading of 3 billion shares. Nasdaq gaining 14 points or nearly half a percent it's a two thousand eight hundred fifty seven S&P 500 up six points. This is NPR News. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell in for Cali cross Lee. This is the Cali Crossley Show in January. Jamaica Plain residents got word that Whole

Foods was giving their local grocer Hi-Lo foods the old heave ho for nearly 50 years. I low serve the Latino community selling staples of native foods and produce The Hi-Lo is now closed and Whole Foods is destined to open its doors. The debate continues to rage on in JP between those in favor of Whole Foods moving in and those who fear the spells the beginning of the end for both ethnic and socio economic diversity. Joining me to talk through the latest developments are Matt O'Malley city councilor for District 6 Martha Rodriguez AJP resident and spokesperson for goose foods whose community and we're also welcoming your phone calls in at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 are hoping that Senator Sonia Chang-Diaz will be joining us as well. JP residents we want to hear from you. How do you feel about Whole Foods moving into your neighborhood. The numbers 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 Welcome to both of you thanks for joining us today. Great to be here thank you ARE having me

Martha. I'm going to start with you and I want to blog about this. The news dot com and talked about it so I would be being intellectually dishonest if I said I had a neutral point of view on this. As much as I agree with the overwhelming message of concern regarding diversity and affordable groceries and the escalating rents that seem to follow Whole Foods wherever they go. I'm concerned about this being a misguided effort. How can you convince me on why Whole Foods is the enemy here. Well when I was at the French fry or a supermarket would have been against everything from my neighborhood and I know there's people that would let me Whole Foods for the whole process of gentrification in Jamaica Plain. But that's not it obviously that's something that's been happening for years. However what we do. You have a problem

that if they would do more than is going to speed up this process and therefore their families no income and lighter income families that are going to be displaced and I'm certainly one of those families a low income family I'm a single mom and you know just looking at the effect that he has had already on the community if they do move and I think that I'm going to be one of those people who is going to have to move out to a different place. Well Mark I salute you on your civic activism. My mom was a family advocate for Headstart in the Revere Winthrop Chelsea area and she also worked with UMass Boston with the extension service and in the 70s and when I was growing up in Revere and my mom. The main challenge in helping folks who were economically challenge was that there were no supermarkets in their areas that actually none of the chain supermarkets were there at the time there were there were no stopping shops there were no

Shaws and the supermarkets that were in the urban areas traditionally had food that was not as healthy not brand name and more expensive. If my mother were alive today she would be surprised to see that the introduction of whole foods into an urban neighborhood was a bad thing. Can you I mean I know that there's a website called by local JP dot com that lists over 30 markets that are in the area that service all sorts of ethnic communities you know are you feeling like you're going to be forced to shop at Whole Foods because these other markets won't meet your requirements. Unfortunately I don't think I can afford to shop at Whole Foods I can barely afford to shop but right now the state is and Whole Foods is like you want to spend that kind of stuff and shop and I don't think personally I can shop there and I know there's other you know people keep saying oh you have to what I say you have to what I've got but it will there because that's where they have you know the food that you like in the food you need. However it is what I

guess you know there are convenience stores. So therefore the prices we can I can do my whole you know Much week a sports shop in Adelaide. Because I can afford it because they're expensive. And unfortunately because of that you know rents going and people having to move out of the neighborhood mostly the minorities but they don't have to raise their prices in order to keep their businesses open. So I don't really think they're at a point where they can you know we can come to an agreement where they can lower prices so we can shop there which is a Fortunately that can't happen. Councillor councillor O'Malley man O'Malley is with us now now of course it's been researched Of course that there is a association between the rising of rent the raising of rents rising property values when Whole Foods comes in. It would also be important to note that Hi-Lo actually leased the building to two Whole Foods one might if we're looking for a. Bad guy in this hi lo

foods might actually be the bad guy since they're the one that leads to Whole Foods. You represent this diverse district. There is a school closing in Jamaica Plain. Have you seen the same amount of concern around keeping the school open as there is keeping Whole Foods out. I would say not the same level. I've received close to 900 emails in regard to to the Hi-Lo leaving and and so you bring up an excellent point. Let me preface this by saying I think it's really sad that Hi-Lo is going but they owners who are non Latino and non Jamaica Plain residents have agreed to decided made the call to shut down the store. I think that we have an opportunity here to welcome Whole Foods as a neighbor and hold them accountable to be part of the solution for strengthening. The socio economic the racial cultural diversity that really is the strength of Jamaica Plain that has made it such a vibrant strong neighborhood. You're absolutely right with the Agassi closing with other things happening in the neighborhood in terms of affordable housing opportunities there are ways to get

involved with urban edge is building a new development department is a great make a plain resident is also building one down near the Jackson Square Station so there's terrific ways to get involved to strengthen Jamaica Plain and I think Whole Foods can be part of the solution in terms of. Through their financial contributions their commitment to hire locally the fact that they've hired over 20 of the 40 employees or are working at a Whole Foods within the vicinity or are waiting to work at the Jamaica Plain store. So I really see my role as a city council and as a resident who lives about three blocks away from where Hi-Lo was to work with Whole Foods to make sure that they're a strong neighbor and working with the community to make sure that we can really preserve the strength to make a point. Martha I was in Mission Hill resident for over 10 years and I've actually been in Hi-Lo several times and I have to say with all due respect to the Hi-Lo owners it was not a supermarket that I would choose to go in on more than one or two occasions. I'm wondering have you been in a Whole Foods.

Yes I have. And what was your impression if you were to compare I mean I know that Whole Foods has bulk sale of all sorts not just as you say you need to do your full shopping. You know would have you done a price by price comparison. Have you let me have it what do you think the difference is between you know you're shopping at the high low when you're shopping at the Whole Foods. So I don't I don't have to kind of mock up of all not knowing what it is. But it is more expensive and I have gone up in a Whole Foods before when I used to live in a different neighborhood. And I mean not just you know in comparison to how clean and the food and organic food of color. There's no argument there I'm not going to say that the highlight was better. But you know I would like to say something of what O'Malley said you know that whole foods can be very beneficial going Amazon you know. Yeah they say they're going to do a lot of things for a neighborhood however how do we know they're really going to come through and they're going to keep their word because so far they haven't really shown their faces in the neighborhood they really haven't spoken to the neighborhood and several people

and I just would group act for me and I haven't really been very honest about it and then you know like Senator who got her letter you know she wrote in a letter with a P.A. that unless hopefully we'll come up with an actual you know list of benefits that can really help you know if they'd be there diverse ways that it is so that people can that people that live in JP can they can they there to actually enjoy the benefits. Then if they can't do that then they should probably break their contract. What are the what are the five things in Jamaica Plain not focused on Whole Foods but what are five things that would make the community a better place. I mean it's you know we're focusing on the issue of diversity and I think that's an essential essential part of what the city is about about what the city of Boston is about. In about economic and social justice for people and you know my fear is someone who I think you know we all agree on the same fundamental principles of of equality access

or access to quality education access to quality foods access to health care and access to jobs. I'm wondering if you agree with those those fundamental needs for the neighborhood and if so you know what are the steps that you think this effort will do to bring Jamaica Plain closer to those ideals. Well I'm sorry can I just you know I mean you know you and I didn't I mean I want you want to better access to education for your children I'm sure you want better access for employment for yourself your family and your children. You want health care for your children and yourself and your family and your neighbors and you want access to better services. And I'm just wondering how those ideals and needs that you have that we share in the I share in the effort how working against Whole Foods is going to bring you closer to that ideal. Like what do you expect to get out of this. First of are going to get like you know right now.

Things aren't working and it requires a lot of things and there are many wonderful people and many wonderful groups that are worth going on when the different interests we have in our neighborhood and we definitely show our support to them a vote right now. We're just focused on one thing which is keeping that out of a neighborhood which the other you know the reasons that I mentioned earlier. In order to keep many families in the neighborhood the many families that are made JP The place that it is the many families the local business owners that have been given back to the community to make our community a better place. And so right now we're focused on fighting for the rights of the people to stay in the neighborhood the people that are working for all those wonderful. City council about O'Malley. Well you know I think one thing that we haven't touched upon today is the fact that the same owners of the building who have leased Whole Foods also owned the supermarket in Chestnut Hill that supermarket has laid vacant for more than 10 years at

this current location where they're looking to move in is really an anchor store for many of the businesses. And the fact that it's going to bring jobs going to bring access to healthy food options is very important in terms of you know commitment to the neighborhood. We've seen it the curly school is directly across the street they've applied for and been accepted to the salad bar project which is going to bring healthy nutritious food into the schools which I think we all agree is missing and important to have that Whole Foods is given fifty six thousand dollars to help fund this project in various schools as well as working with the bodegas there's about a dozen bodegas on the high Jackson corridor. I've asked them if they would be willing to to use their leverage their group buying power to help these bodegas get access to wholesale price for some other food so I think there's an opportunity for businesses from all stripes to thrive. And you know I understand the point I respectfully disagree with some of my neighbors on this issue but I think that there are so many other issues that we should be focusing our energy and our time on and

holding Whole Foods accountable to be a part of it as we go forward. There will be a community process in place and I look forward to working with all stakeholders to building a stronger to make a point. We're going to open up the phone lines in just a bit expand the conversation. You're listening to the Kelly Crossley Show we're talking about whole foods whose foods and Jamaica Plain will be right back after this on WGBH radio. With. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Huntington Theatre presenting the comedy of errors set south of the border telling the story of two sets of twins separated at birth and reunited 25 years later directed by Edward hall. May 18th through June 19th Huntington Theatre dot org and from its your move in. A move management company specializing in the planning orchestrating and execution of moves for senior citizens downsizing from

large homes to smaller spaces. More info at. It's your move ink dot com. Journalist Ian Brown son Walker has a rare disorder that left him with severe cognitive developmental and physical disabilities. He can't speak and requires a feeding tube and diapers. He's now 15 years old. Brown has written a new memoir that ass and tries to answer the question What is the value of a life like this. We'll talk with Ian Brown on the next FRESH AIR. Join us this afternoon at two on eighty nine point seven. GBH. WGBH member card a to see your debut GBH member card is good for discounts and where Ian's NBA stars concert halls and dancers get an eye exam fresh flowers form a graph. High five here I've hard jazz joints. It's for the kids to learn a

language. See movie. See nature. Organic produce quotes on refinancing your home and Shakespeare Theater tickets music books and wild Santas gags at the soup. Learn how much you paid to support public broadcasting online at WGBH dot org WGBH reporter Philip Martin joins a new generation of Freedom Writers retracing the 161 bus journey through the Deep South. Hear his reports from the road. Mornings and afternoons. All this week here on eighty nine point seven. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley This is the Kelly cross show if you're just joining us we're talking about what the presence of Whole Foods in Jaypee means for the community will the rents go up. Will people get cut out of the neighborhood. Will they be the ideal neighbor or will good food be for everyone joining me to discuss these pros and cons are Matt O'Malley city council for District 7 Martha Rodriguez a spokesperson for whose food whose community and joining us now by phone is Senator

Sanya Chang-Diaz. We have some calls online at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 Sen. Chang-Diaz Welcome to the program. So I don't I'm doing well how are you. I'm very well I thought I was going to get Cali but I'm glad you did that surprise it's like Mr. date. So sad I don't know if you heard the beginning of the show but I as much as I share the ideals of the concerns of Martha Rodriguez and others in the neighborhood I have blog and written about and sell the news that to me this is very misguided in terms of of getting the action that we need to forward social and economic justice. Where are you on this issue. CHURCH Well you know this is an issue that has generated probably the most traffic on any issues that I've had coming into my office in terms of constituent call and now the fourth since I've come into office. So is this something that is hugely important to the residents of Jamaica Plain about which side of the issue you're coming from and you know what. What has really been my priority is to really listen hard

to all the meetings I get to read a hundred I was in my office and I'm really working to get the people to put aside to try and come up with a solution that can hopefully get something to everyone here because it had a very I think there were but areas over the last week of what folks are about what is coming to the neighbors. People excitement are about to come in a neighborhood and we're at the point where we have to figure out OK what do we do now. You know what what we did. I mean I completely overwhelmed and in all of the efforts that have been done by by Martha Rodriguez and the folks at whose foods I mean I think it is a great effort of grassroots citizen reaction at the same time I'm wondering is is there a great opportunity here to take this this political connectedness this this pride of community this pride of neighborhood and work toward some of the real

underlying base issues that are causing this I mean concerns about rent going up whether or not Whole Foods comes in or not is is a serious one and quality foods for our in our neighborhoods and all of that I mean is is there another opportunity here. Well sure. There are lots of opportunities and you know we should be clear about what's going on and to make a plan. Those are issues that that grassroots activists and elected leaders you know like myself come about I have been I have been working on for this debate ever started about and will continue to work up the aggregates maybe maybe you know long time it's been an issue for all of us. Yeah. Yeah and there are a lot of great work going on and citywide on these issues and it will continue no matter what happens here but I think that what's generated out of this debate and controversy to be frank and AP has is the fact that you know the recognition that while the arrival of wealth within the neighborhood is not going to you know cause things to happen it never happened before and to make a point but that it's going to beat

up significantly some of the dynamics that people are worried about in Jamaica Plain identification and displacement of residents who have really been there for generations that BJP is a wonderful place to live and to work and to do this. We're going to jump to the phone lines here you're listening to the Kelley cross lease show on WGBH we're going to jump over to Ben on line to Ben your Jamaica Plain resident Welcome to the show. What's on your mind. Well I just wanted to go wanted to echo this comment earlier which was that while while while the current that the focus will be a good neighbor in Jamaica Plain there are few reasons to believe that it may not be a good neighbor and doing well in the first place is that. They've been saying they have a town hall meeting for months now and they've been questioned but they pushed back from March to April now the question is from April to May. Now it's looking like late May it could be in June and this deeply concerns me that Whole Foods is not

interested in hearing. You know throughout this entire giant debate over it not seeming to be interested in hearing directly communicating with and neighbor with their neighbors on this. But then did it did it did high low hold hearings before they leased to a Whole Foods. No they did not and I but but it was that I hear a lot in this just just from as objective as I can be from this that Whole Foods is the bad guy but Hi-Lo somehow is the victim and Hi-Lo you know they could have leased almost anyone they could lease to a gym they could have leased to a roller rink they could release to a parking lot and they chose whole foods without hearing from the community and without any input from the community I mean Martha Rodriguez Do you hold Hi-Lo harmless in their participation in life and they are just as guilty and they're just as bad however.

They have shown to have made very clear that they don't care about the community you're not given any comment. And on the other hand hosts saying they don't care about the community and they don't care about their concerns and that they are willing to work with the committee so that's why they're focusing their efforts on Whole Foods instead of hydro because we're not going to get anywhere with them because we already tried that. OK we're going to do it I could do it. Please jump in on that I mean I think it's important to point out here that if there's one thing that all of the sides involved in this debate can agree on is that a Hi-Lo did not behave in a very de Broglie manner and this process I would say and all of the input that I've heard at that meeting because I don't hear anyone holding the plane that you know I know I just in this media world with the you know the quick second bites and everything it's all all about whole foods you know and I don't have any vested interests I don't have one in my neighborhood you know I don't I don't own a stock but. You know I just I just feel from a corporate standpoint you know they they haven't done anything but lease the building so far and haven't had enough you know where they stand on

attending meetings and starting meetings that all needs to be proven as they go. But you know I just can't imagine being in that boardroom when they said they were moving in and how happy they were and then finding the public reaction to it. It's you know there's it's just it's just surprising to me that it's all about Whole Foods and I can safely say I hope that because they they can be agents of the solution. Right. It's not that they're that they don't. But people are looking at what do we do and how can we solve these problems. And hopefully it has a lot of power in it you know answering that question. That's why I think the focus. No not at all I just like to say I do believe that Whole Foods was looking at a May date for their community meeting and it conflicted with the Jamaica Plain neighborhood council so they pushed it back to either late May early June. I agree with I think all parties involved in the community process is important. I have found a Whole Foods to be willing to sit down Sen Chang-Diaz and I sat down with them almost immediately. As this broke I set up a

meeting between some of the other organic independent supermarkets with them. I know they're looking to sit down at the bodega but I grew to we need to come together and find ways that we can we can work collaboratively to strengthen to make a plan. We're going to take a call now. We're going to line three will speak to Alex in Jamaica Plain. Alex welcome to the callee cross show good afternoon. What's on your mind. Well i.e. I am an immigrant myself I came to this country more than 20 years ago where the suitcase and the camera back and forth very hard all these years that was my residence here in Jamaica Plain I bought a house about six years ago and I think we should welcome Whole Foods to the neighborhood. I think a lot of people are taking hold of the target because it. An easy target but also the issues of the gentrification or viewpoint in the neighborhood. There are options you can shop at Stop and Shop. You can also shop at Whole Foods so you know if I want

to have a corporate table it will probably be one of those corporate members I would choose to have it so we want to work you know in it. Alex I'm looking at a list here from a website called by local JP dot com and they list almost 23. Not only bodegas but places like Harvest co-op on South Street and get you know a list of meat markets meat land on Center Street in Hyde Square Jackson Square Plaza meat market over at Eggleston square some places that I've been to myself and you know it's more variety here in these three neighborhoods than I have in my suburban area to shop and I'm wondering you know do you find for your food tastes both from from needing paper towels to milk to specific ethnic foods that you might enjoy or want to try. Do you find there's enough enough of a price variance for you to shop the way you want to. I think there is and everybody looks whatever fits their budget.

You know I know was not a place that you I would walk in all the time because it wasn't the cleanest or the greatest place to go into and the people that call it a neighborhood institution are severely misguided. There were even rats running down the hallways you know and that's not the type of neighborhood I would like and you know I would like to see you know the impression I want to give of my neighborhood in a supermarket when I'm able. But there is a variety in the neighborhood and you can get many things in the neighborhood before they got have an opportunity to take this as a chance to diversify and offer more product they wouldn't hold otherwise because they'll be people looking for them and they will. Alex thanks so much for joining us. Martha has as your efforts with foods been able to to you know gather e-mail addresses and solidify the community I mean are you finding that you know the Jamaica Plain which is not just a neighborhood for folks who may be from Hispanic or Latino descent but also for the growing gay and lesbian community

as well as a number of other communities coming together are you finding that this is a great way to unify and come together. Oh I think we have got to ask I think an entrance thanked by in March. I'm damned if I don't right. The couple was in Cambridge and we had almost a thousand men at their wake up to Earth. Well we had a table and we had you know such a big amount of people coming to listen and talking to us and talking amongst each other. So yeah I think this is something that working as a community united has you know unify the community has made us very strong. So Martha if we fast forward ahead a cold foods comes in they give a list of things that they're going to work on and certainly your organization as well as a counselor Melly and Senator Chang-Diaz will work to hold them accountable but what are the efforts do you think you or organization will do going forward to try and really work to keep affordable housing in Jamaica Plain in the things that you feel are

are at risk. Well like I said you know there are many wonderful many wonderful people in an area working on this effort and we definitely you know give them all the support not just by talking but with action whatever they need from us. There are very much working very hard you know to help is there anything. And these other people but right knowledge of the focus is to keep the pressure on hold to either really provide us what we really need to keep our neighborhood diverse and you know accessible for low income lighter income family or just you know stay out. So your Chang-Diaz I mean this is a difficult message for a state senator like yourself who wants to welcome businesses into the city of Boston businesses into neighborhoods who are going to provide jobs and healthcare like Whole Foods is that when you you have a resident saying to a company like Whole Foods who gets good marks on many issues stay out.

Well that's why in the letter that I said to the neighborhood council and of authentic to constituents about me from my position on this you know I'm going to try to find a path yes right a path that solves or at least mitigate the very deep current that that many folks in the neighborhood have about beating up education and about making sure that we actually you know reap the benefits of local employment that that are an opportunity here with brain food so that we can you know if we can if we can do. What sort of looking for you know just sort of this all dissolve isn't quite the right word but dissolve some of the real worries that people have. Then I think everyone in the neighborhood would love to have you know access to more healthy food than all of that but you know local employment and the benefits that health care to bring to the neighborhood and they are significant you know I certainly don't you know sort of sneeze at those benefits but what really worries me is that it may be that those benefits will not accrue

to many many families that have work to make JP A great place to live because they'll be gone. Matt O'Malley it's all about affordable housing. It's not all about affordable housing it's about a lot of different ways that we can be working together obviously affordable housing is a is a big part of it. There are some new developments in the pipeline. And I will certainly work to that and continue to be an advocate for it. You know probably the easiest thing for me to have done politically with this issue is to sort of hang back and let people discuss this. But I was not elected to be a passive bystander. I believe that we have an opportunity to bring in a business that will bring 100 new jobs that will bring a product that many neighbors value as well as work with them through community partnership benefits in terms of direct financial contributions in terms of working with the schools working with the youth sports leagues that there are tremendous opportunities here. And I look forward to working with all of my neighbors and Whole Foods to making this a stronger neighborhood.

Well we've been talking about Whole Foods moving into JP and I've been joined by Matt O'Malley city councilor for District 6 Martha Rodriguez a spokes person for whose foods whose community and state Senator Sonia Chang thank you all very much up next. We'll take a look at New Hampshire and the presidential election. Don't go away you're listening to the Kelly Crossley Show on WGBH radio. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Fuller craft Museum in. New

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Next time on the world. Coming up at 3:00 here on eighty nine point seven in WGBH. It's the forty sixth annual spring auction. Now you can support public broadcasting and get some great deals while you're at it. And right now you can place your bid on a six day five night trip to Greece generously donated by the Greek National Tourism Organization and this group of historic hotels and groups. See all the items up for bid at auction dot WGBH dot org. We're running out of oxygen. I only have so many people that I can trade the world. I mean it's not an easy decision for anyone to make. Coming up at 3:00 o'clock on an eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for news and culture. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley This is the Cali cross show while the presidential race is heating up with no end of Republicans just

tossing their hats into the ring to find out how this race is playing out. We're going to the state that can turn a candidate into a President or into an also ran and of course we're talking about our neighbor to the north New Hampshire. I'm joined by radio and TV commentator Arnie Arnesen and Fergus Cullen He's the public affairs consultant and a former chairman of the New Hampshire Republican Party and an editorial page columnist with The New Hampshire Union Leader welcome to you both. It's a pleasure thank you. Good to have you here Arny good to chat with you again Arnie it's been a while. Yeah when you're talking about the Republican primary you know gaining steam and all these people showing up I'm thinking Really where have you been. Fergus do you recognize that state I don't think that's happened yet. You know I don't think so. But if we were really complaining only activists and political junkies are sort of disappointed by relatively slow start but normal citizens they're going to baseball practice Little League practice and enjoy spring finally. So Ferguson I know I'm not going to spend too much time on Donald Trump but now that

Latoya Jackson has been voted off Celebrity Apprentice I understand she may be the next Republican candidate for president. You know it's really unfortunate that someone like Donald Trump has gotten as much media attention when there are real serious candidates out there a credible candidate like dimple for example who just can't get some of the attention that they deserve you know as the center of this media circus sideshow moves off the stage the better as far as I can sir. Now you also have an openly gay Republican candidate running for president up there Fred Karger. There are any number of people who are more serious about Trump and the idea that he's right and I think it's just preposterous. You are beyond yours. So just an unfortunate joke you know what unfortunately for guys here's here's the here's the thing. Tomorrow I believe it is the Nashua Chamber of Commerce is hosting the Donald and in fact they hired a PR company to you know to make sure that the media know exactly where he's going to be and at what time and where his

hair is going to be combed and all that kind of thing. And when you have a chamber of commerce you know ecstatic about the fact that Donald Trump is showing up. It means for some reason he still has some kind of cache. I don't know if that's going to turn into votes but I think it's a real distraction for the Republican Party and it's frankly marginalizing the entire field. Your best luck is at Salon dot com just announced today that he's dead he's done he's over. But Salon.com is this liberal you know online rag and if they're saying he's DONE I'M WAITING FOR LIKE YOU KNOW THE WEEKLY STANDARD to say the same thing that we don't have the National Chamber of Commerce books you know. I'm sure they just sold out their event as well but I haven't met one Republican who is actually supporting Donald Trump running for president. Well I still don't think while you can work the groups out there. So Fergus what does it look like for the Republicans of course Mitt Romney you know not far from his home state so it's not as if he has an uphill battle in terms of name

recognition or you know any of that but what's what's the lay the land so far for Repub serious Republican candidates in New Hampshire. There's no question that Mitt Romney is the front runner in New Hampshire I think he's done an excellent job of retaining most of the order that he had last time around. It's important to remember that you know before Mitt Romney was not Romney he was just another guy out there trying to get name recognition in New Hampshire four years ago just running paid TV ads in New Hampshire trying to build his name I.D. to the point that John McCain had or that Rudy Giuliani had this time around he's been on this track before. And I think huge advantage for someone running for president you have has been very time the people who do the hard work and run not once but twice and I know I made for her guess I think. Hold on hold on what about the Mitt Romney the former governor of Massachusetts where half of the state of New Hampshire actually commutes to Boston every day and runs the Boston Globe and listens to WGBH Annot New Hampshire Public Radio.

I mean I hate to break it to you by the Mitt Romney did not have to establish himself. I think Mitt Romney had to figure out exactly who he was. And just to prove what Mitt Romney is so concerned about if you heard this but I just got a press release that Mitt Romney's going to deliver a major health care address at the University of Michigan on Thursday. So he is trying to somehow explain to the American people how his little version of Obamacare is a good thing. But the big version of Obamacare the national one is a bad thing. So once again his inconsistency is going to be a problem that he has to deliver a speech on health care on Thursday. So I'm just telling you you know he's got name recognition I'm just not sure where that's going. Well some of the other candidates wish they had the kind of problem that Mitt Romney that's Department. But I thought Mitt Romney a couple weeks ago after New Hampshire he was asked point blank that question about his health care plan and how it differed from Obamacare and you know the truth is the answer was not quite adequate. And you know primary voters do have some questions asked about

how his mandate in Massachusetts is worked out. And Governor Romney's stance so far again as a critic you know that. When that when the health care bill passed here in Massachusetts there was a great a great photo of all the Democrats here in Massachusetts standing beside Romney celebrating the victory and I remember any number of pundits were like why would the Democrats do that why would they stand next to Romney when Romney will be able to use this as his ability to you know work across the aisle and to bring health care and but it does crack I don't think the Democrats in Massachusetts were smart enough to know that they would want to hang this around Romney's neck. But it does go to show that sometimes we have got the slightest idea what we're talking about. See I got a speech there huh. Well four four years ago there was a net positive for Mitt Romney and this time well it's got some questions raised. And look I'm one of those Republicans who thinks is important that Republicans

have a positive. On health care that their health care plan can't be don't get hurt and don't get sick. And I think that's the real issue. But Governor Romney deserves credit for tackling a complicated issue. That's what we hire presidents to do. I think some of the other Republicans who are taking charge maybe ought to come up with their own plan as well because this issue doesn't go away. It's critical to winning elections. So I mean I actually got on I just I just want to just want to say that in defense of Mitt Romney I can't believe I'm doing this but in defense of Mitt Romney what Mitt Romney really is going to suggest I think on Thursday is that he's going to celebrate what he did in Massachusetts but he says this is not a cookie cutter plan that works for every state. Let the 50 states experiment let Vermont do its single payer let Massachusetts do its you know its version of insurance care. But he really wants experiments he doesn't want a national plan he wants to keep insurance in the mix. So I think his liberating way is going to really talk about new federalism kind of like a Ronald Reagan concept and say let's let the 50 states do their thing.

We don't need a national plan like we have with Medicare I mean why did it take him that long to get to that. That argument I mean I think from any Republican federalist point of view to just put it on the states and to do the you know we each get to make our own decisions. State you know state Marxism is not the same. National Marxism what. What is your viewpoint on why Romney took so long to get his argument together. I think he hired the wrong focus group of people. I mean to be honest with you it's like that would have been the end that would have been my first answer. And it's the truth and the other part about it is it's the truth. So it's it is and that's what's so surprising. They didn't realize that the truth would actually work instead he kept doing the backstroke of saying something else. But the one thing he is going to say is I will appear repeal Obamacare on day one and then I will let the 50 states do their experiment. I think that will play well in Peoria but the one thing you need to realize is Mitt Romney has really done something very interesting and Fergus you might explain this to me. He is walking away from Iowa. He is like a no show in Iowa. He's putting all his eggs in a New Hampshire basket which I think is going to be a

little unfortunate because he was the former governor of Massachusetts which almost makes him a favorite son because he's got a home and went to saki. What's the what's the polling in Iowa for guess what why is do you think Romney is doing that. Well you know no Republican nominee has ever been able to win both Iowa and New Hampshire in a competitive primary last cycle Mitt Romney tried to become the first one to pull off a double victory. And it didn't work out. You ended up winning neither of those. You know less about it. He's a businessperson. And I really admire the fact that he's looked at it and he looks at some of the things that's not there. Think of us but you might be willing to walk away from. I suspect that they will end up playing in Iowa downplaying expectations and perhaps coming in late if they think they've got an opportunity to exceed expectations. But New Hampshire is critically important to Mitt Romney. Meanwhile all the other candidates in New Hampshire are trying to establish themselves as the alternative to Mitt Romney's image whether it be able to do that I think remains to be seen.

You're listening to the Kelly cross Lee show here on WGBH I'm Sue O'Connell. So Arnie paint for me what it's like to be in New Hampshire during a presidential launch time which is you know springtime this year is when we really start getting things going when it's you know going to be pretty much a one sided primary with the Republicans did the Democrats just start making a list of things they want to introduce into the conversation. Yes I mean what. What does a Democrat strategist do during this time I mean certainly I do think what's interesting what's interesting is I think you going to see a lot of Obama's people showing up in the state of New Hampshire we just had Steven Chu here the other day. We're going to see a lot of ambassadors coming in a lot of secretaries I believe maybe the secretary of agriculture might be showing up. So what Obama will do it will sort of be like gifts from the White House will start coming in because otherwise there's no reason for him to appear here. And for the Democrats I think in some ways it's a little unfortunate

because they really want to have a conversation. But the best thing that happened to the Democratic Party I think this time around is that the Republican Party one of the reasons why I think it's so delayed in starting this presidential primary is it is trying to figure out where the heart and soul of the Republicans are. The Tea Party has changed the conversation for traditional Republicans. I was listening to Boehner talking the other day and he's waxing poetic for Mitch Daniels to show up in the race you know when is he coming. Now the question is how is Mitch Daniels going to play with the Tea Party we know he plays well with the old you know more blue blood Republicans. I think for the Democrats right now they're hoping and praying that the Tea Party is going to take control and frankly Jack Kimball who is the chairman of the New Hampshire GOP is very much a a founder of the Tea Party in New Hampshire and he would like to see the Tea Party control the candidacy if that happens that's the best thing that ever happened to Barack Obama. Does this set us up for a very bloody primary. Well you know this is Fergus again and I agree with much of what Arnie just said there is

something of a battle going on for the heart and soul. But you mentioned something very important which is the absence of a competitive Democratic primary means all those independent voters in New Hampshire who can pick either primary to vote in are likely to gravitate to the Republican primary. And what you don't see right now is any of the candidates on the Republican side really appealing directly to the mainstream conservative Republican primary voters. They're all trying to appeal to where the energy is right now which is on the Tea Party. So whether that amounts to enough votes to win a primary especially one that is going to be opened independent I think remains to be seen as a potentially difficult winning strategy for any of these candidates who are just trying to build. Coalition based on Tea Party member Fergus might might take on the New Hampshire Tea Party which is basically just completely anecdotal and from whenever I've been to a Tea Party rally where New Hampshire people have been they look just like New Hampshire Republican conservative Simmy they don't look like any particular brand of tea party

like I see on the television for reports of across the country. Is the Tea Party part of the Republican Party in New Hampshire really going to be that significant a take on it or will it just be a you know candidate speaking to a more conservative part of the Republican Party. You know what I mean I mean it just doesn't seem that different to me. Well I agree with that but they're the ones who are showing up at events right now and you know temple and he has been something of a political traceable in this campaign. You know he started out saying look I've been basically. And achieving governor Governor was he did some interesting things in a difficult state. Well you know that wasn't ringing a lot of bells with people. And so he's moved to the right move to the right as he's been trying to get something is going to connect with the audience. And right now the folks who are self-identified Tea Partiers are the ones who are showing up at the Lincoln Day dinner you know the one sort of reinforcing those tendencies in candidate by Michele Bachmann is another one. So again there's no candidate out there is

sort of talking to mainstream conservative Republicans who might agree with the emphasis on limited government and lower spending that they share with Tea Party members. But they might not self-identify as Tea Party members themselves and whoever. But I think that person is likely to get the lion's share of the vote in the primary. Sue I want you to come hang with me because your impression of the Tea Party in New Hampshire is not accurate no. The Tea Party in New Hampshire is as tea party ish as what you see in Wisconsin as what you see in Florida as what you see anywhere else in the country. And fact right now the the leadership of the Republican Party is controlled by the Tea Party. But I think there are a small element within the the former mainstream Republican Party and that's problematic for New Hampshire because the tea party has controlled the policy discussion in New Hampshire to the extent that Republicans are in total shock by what they see because it's an extreme conservative agenda that they don't even relate to. I think there was an interview with Jack Kimball the

the chairman of the Republican Party who is a strong Tea Party supporter and founder and he doesn't even understand his own state because if you listen to what Fergus just said. Who is going to influence the New Hampshire primary are not going to be Tea Party people who are going to influence the New Hampshire party. Are independents. They are the largest number of voters in the state. They have a greater percentage of the vote than Democrats have a greater percentage of the vote than Republicans they can pick up either ballot there is no way in heck they're going to pick up a Democratic ballot which means all of them are going to weigh in on the Republican side. And the reason why they are not card carrying Republicans is because they ain't. And that means that they're going to look for someone who's going to speak to them and frankly speak to them on a very fiscally oriented position but not a social one. I mean this is a libertarian state. We like gay marriage we don't like big church. I mean those are the people that are going to look at some of the people that are appealing to a lot of the Tea Party candidates in Iowa and everywhere else is saying that's not where we

want to go for a nominee coming out of New Hampshire. I think that's what's going to be so interesting is that even the Republican chairman currently doesn't quite understand how the presidential primaries are going to play out in his own state. Fergus who else is on on the list do you think for the short list for Republican candidates for president that are that are getting some traction and are worth talking about. Well I mean I think that again all of the other candidates not named Mitt Romney have as good a reason to believe that they can become the main alternative to Mitt Romney as any of the others. But we've seen this play out before when there's been a front runner. You know four years ago it was who's going to be the alternative to John McCain in New Hampshire back in 1995 96. Who is going to be the alternative to Bob Dole. New Hampshire traditionally likes to test those front runners very hard and sometimes they succeed sometimes they don't. But you know either Michele Bachmann or temple N.C. or even Ron Paul and all of them can argue credibly that they will become the alternative to Mitt Romney. I think Governor

Huntsman who hasn't visited New Hampshire yet this cycle but is about to has an opportune. Unity in that area as well. And Governor Daniels were to get into the race. I think you'd find a lot of people would be interested in hearing from him as well. I want to ask you a wide open both quickly about the sort of social media organizing that we will certainly see in this presidential campaign last you know last efforts on the Obama front were really sort of groundbreaking and the way technology moves so quickly it seems kind of quaint that that the Facebook and the Twitter and all the social media were sort of new to the presidential efforts in terms of the campaign. Are are are the candidates ready to launch. I know most of them have already but the grassroots organizing through Facebook and Twitter are they ready to go is this. The right market in New Hampshire really see if the whole face of campaigning has changed.

Ferguson has. I mean I think social media might be great on a national level but I think when you're talking New Hampshire when you're talking to Iowa honey you're talking face to face you're talking small groups you're talking persuasion. You need to physically be there. And social media is a good thing. Maybe a reinforcer it might bring more people to your little event. But I think in the end you're going to have to do morning drive time radio and talk to people. You're going to show up at the Dunkin Donuts are going to have to go to like a lot of chicken suppers and get nauseated. We're going to have to go to the dump because in the end that's how we still play that kind of politics. And as crazy as it sounds I think that will be part of a success strategy for someone who isn't a Mitt Romney. They're going to have to you know money is not going to tell as much as that relationship they're going to have to create. Fergus do you think you know what. Well one of the reasons why New Hampshire works is that a lesser known lesser funded candidate has a level playing field with someone is better known and better funded and social media is part of what level that playing field. That's why in your senior new Congress is going to make a big

announcement tomorrow night I think it will play as much on social media as it does on sort of traditional media as well. So it's increasingly important I think we're the Republicans culturally have been playing catch up with the Democrats and the left in terms of their embrace of social media. But I think that gap is closing really rapidly and we're going to see sort of the next generation of that on the Republican side this time. You know New Hampshire primary voters are a lot like their national peers in a lot of ways including They're on Facebook too. You're not just a young person in California is doing that everybody's doing it now. Yeah grandmothers and grandfathers are doing it and it's certainly become the way that people share information and share photos and info so it's and I think social media is an invitation. But New Hampshire still is a kick the tires state. I think they're going to want to mean everyone's waxing poetic I was just reading Boehner's waxing poetic about Mitch Daniels possibly getting into the race you know and I'm thinking well I couldn't pick him out of a lineup you know. And and the social media thing may be a good thing. But in New Hampshire you still are going to want to be able to press the flesh. I think

that's not going to be replaced by social media. But you're right Fergus it will be an enhancer. Well I want to thank you both for joining us this is certainly just the beginning of the New Hampshire conversation. Any any quick predictions you want to make before we jump out. I want Michele Bachmann OK. Michele Ron Ferguson. You know there are the right always welcoming for a new Whether that's going to be governor and Governor Daniel Goodall Trump. There's always going to be room for another person in the race. Well thank you so much to radio and TV commentator Arnie Arneson and Fergus Cullen a public affairs consultant and former chairman of the New Hampshire Republican Party. Thanks so much for joining us we'll have you back on soon I'm sure you can keep top on top of the Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Kelly Crossley and of course follow us on Twitter. Become a fan on Facebook. I'm Sue O'Connell I'll be back in for Cali tomorrow. We are a production of WGBH radio. With.

Me.