WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. Today we're exploring the cost of entertainment. First off we look at the forces behind skyrocketing ticket prices from the Red Sox to the Rolling Stones the ticket business has morphed into a billion dollar b a month bulking prices with a smorgasbord of fees processing fees we'll call fees shipping fees and convenience fees adding to the heat. The bookers and promoters who are jacking up costs in the online world brokers are buying and reselling tickets. Scalpers are tapping into bottomless wells of eager consumers. We'll get the lowdown on the history and pathology of this ticket gouging industry. From there we look at regulations that are hitting music venues hard. And we wrap up with affordable wines choice stuff that will cost you chump change up now. Next the cost of entertainment from scouting this week who knows. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Barbara Kline.

President Obama is again calling on Congress to pass his jobs bill and challenging Republicans to present their own plan if they don't like his. As NPR's Brian Naylor reports the president today held his first news conference since announcing the plan last month. The president has been traveling around the country pushing his proposal which he says would create 1.9 million jobs. He made much the same pitch before reporters at the White House saying the measure would provide an insurance policy against a slowing economy. Congressional Republicans are united in opposition and Mr. Obama called on them to come forward with their own ideas. Do they have a plan that would have a similar impact. Because if they do I'm happy to hear but I haven't heard them offer alternatives that would have that same kind of impact and that's what we need right now. The president said he supports a Democratic Senate idea to pay for the measure by imposing a surtax on millionaires rather than his initial proposal to increase taxes on those making more than a quarter million dollars a year. Brian Naylor NPR News Washington. Meanwhile the latest snapshot of the jobs market shows continuing weakness as

NPR's Joel Snyder reports the Labor Department says new claims for unemployment benefits last week climbed by 6000 to a seasonally adjusted 400 and 1000. Despite the modest rise weekly jobless claims remain close to the key 400000 level Mark economists generally associate with at least some improvement in the labor market. But analyst Hugh Johnson says the trend has yet to emerge that suggests employers are more willing to hire in greater numbers. Are we don't see that right now in the numbers we see very very steady numbers which suggests that employment conditions are just stable at best if they're improving them. Proving of anemic pace jobless claims are looked at over the past couple of months Johnson says the trend points more toward a job market that remains weak. Joel Snyder NPR News Washington. Europe's central bank is offering new emergency loans a key source of funding as eurozone banks struggle to survive the debt crisis. But the central bank is not cutting its benchmark interest rate leaving it at one and a half percent after

inflation jumped to 3 percent in September. In contrast the Bank of England says it will inject one hundred fifteen billion dollars into the economy to stimulate Britain's faltering economy. The Swedish poet Tomas Tran Strummer is the winner of the 2011 Nobel Prize in literature who worked as a psychologist and social worker use dreams and the subconscious to infuse his poetry which the Nobel Committee described as condensed translucent images of reality. On Wall Street at this hour the Dow is up eighty nine points at eleven thousand twenty nine the Nasdaq is up 30. This is NPR. The human rights office at the United Nations says the death toll in Syria has climbed to more than twenty nine hundred since the start of anti-government protests began in March. Syrian President Bashar Assad has cracked down on protesters blaming the unrest

on terrorists. Pakistan's supreme court is condemning political parties tied to extortion and targeted killings. From Islamabad NPR's Julie McCarthy reports violence in the sprawling port city of Karachi has taken more than thirteen hundred lives this year. The chief justice said that violence in karate represents unimaginable brutalities and bloodshed and included disposing the dead in bags. The court cited reports of intelligence agencies saying that some criminal groups had become part of political parties and enjoyed their backing if such links were established it may entail serious legal consequences so the court and predicted unprecedented disaster. If there's a continued failure to protect life and property U.S. security concerns focus on al-Qaida and the Taliban. But the turmoil in Karachi could be just as worrisome. The court noted huge economic losses to the country's commercial center when violence surges which also jeopardizes supply routes for NATO troops in Afghanistan.

Julie McCarthy NPR News Islamabad. A Muslim-American woman is suing Southwest Airlines for being removed from a flight from San Diego in March after a crew member said her behavior seemed suspicious. Basi who was wearing a hit job or Islamic headscarf was talking on her cell phone as the flight was preparing to take off when a flight attendant became concerned about something she thought she overheard. Abbassi was then escorted off the plane. Barbara Klein NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the school foundation supporting social entrepreneurs and their renovations to solve the world's most pressing problems at s k o l l dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. The Columbus Day holiday weekend is finally coming up. Time to grab a couple of tickets to see an artist you love. You might want to get a loan to pay for them. But never fear you can always hear some local favorites at a small club right. Good luck with it it's likely to be sold out and not for the

reasons that you'd guess. Well you can always stay home and sip a budget friendly read cheap wine fine wine. It's all about the cost of entertainment today and we began with a look at these stratospheric ticket prices. Joining me to talk through the history and pathology of getting gal judged by high ticket prices is Dean Budnick. He's coauthor of Ticketmaster's the rise of the concert industry and how the public got scalped. He's also the executive editor of relics magazine. Welcome. Thank you. One of the things that just puzzles has always puzzled me and I got the answer I'm going to get to that in a second is why these tickets just sell out in two seconds. So let's begin just a little bit more slowly. Why are the ticket prices so high now. Wow. You know that is the product of a number of factors but I think an essential part of it is that the industry transformed really going all the way back to the 19 80s when if you look at who distributes the

tickets in the New England area and much of the nation the dominant company was take a Tron. And people would go to take a Tron and buy their tickets. And the way that ticket Tron worked is they charged any of the facilities or promoters who wanted to use their service 50 cents. And then they charged the public 50 cents and that's how they made their dough. Then in 1980 to Ticketmaster with a new CEO came in and they went to all of the venues and they said well instead of having the public pay 50 cents what if we have the public pay 3 dollars per ticket and the venue said to themselves and said to Ticketmaster Well that's a bad idea then people won't buy tickets to our concerts. And what Ticketmaster said to them was well how about if we split that $3 and we get a buck fifty and you get a buck fifty. All of a sudden Ticketmaster was the dominant company and all of a sudden the industry began to be monetized in

all sorts of different ways. When people saw there was much more money to be made. So just to be clear there's really no connection to the real cost of putting on a show. Connected to the high ticket prices. Well certainly not the service fees the service fees that a so that come with those tickets. That's pure profit for the most part and I think people sometimes don't realize that they sort of assume that it's something closer to a public utility where you pay what that cost you so that's part of the ticket and beyond that you know over the years a number of other people have come to share in those service fees that the buildings the promoters in many cases the performers themselves. So those are the fees on top of the base ticket prices. And as of late certainly within the past five or 10 years those base ticket prices have only continued to rise as well because of changes within the industry because of the fact that you

know artists are not making their money off CDs anymore and they need to make it make that. Those profits that that income however they can. And on top of that Live Nation has come in as the as the dominant promoter in the country owning a lot of AMP of theatres and in negotiating with the artists the artists increasingly have asked for more and more Money and Live Nation has given it to them. And ultimately the people who pay the price quite literally are the consumers. So what we're talking about is that everybody pretty much has a hand in the till. And the only person at the end of this line is a consumer who is stuck with the bill. There's no question when we started writing this book we started with a very simple question Why are ticket prices so high just as you asked me and we spent about three years working on this. And as you sort of look at the trail there are just so many factors that came together at this one

moment that have led us to this to this very point. Right so one of the things that everybody thought was going to be so great for consumers was really the technological changes that made paperless tickets possible through these big conglomerates like Ticketmaster. So use it. Ease of use convenience blah blah blah. But it seems to be one way that scalping has actually increased. And I want to get back to those. You know why these tickets sell out in two seconds because I didn't know till I read your thing that there's these computerized bots that just buy up the whole the tickets. So how can a normal person get one. That is that is prospering I want to say by the way even beyond that there's no question there was this company called wiseguy tickets that recently. The people who ran it pled guilty in New Jersey federal court where they had this very elaborate system to defeat the computerized programming of Ticketmaster and had 100000 fake IP addresses set up

around the country to do all that. But I do want to point out beyond that that part of the story is not just computer bots but the fact that because we have online platforms like StubHub and places like craigslist and the like where people can sell their tickets. There are a lot of just you know moms and pops out there just people out there who all of a sudden fancy themselves ticket brokers scalpers on a very small scale. And those people are also competing for the tickets the moment they go on sale. Sometimes someone will go buy an extra pair hoping to subsidize the cost of the tickets which are already so expensive so in theory you know they get to go to the show almost for free. But there's a lot of competition out there even beyond these bots which in many cases certainly are scarfing up some of those tickets from the get go. Here in Massachusetts our representative Michael Moran has proposed a bill to change what is. I didn't realize that the last law that we had is one thousand twenty four

that limits ticket resale to $2 above the face value that's the nineteen twenty four law. Now clearly people are violating that all over the place. So his bill would try to make for a fair were dispensation on the second what's called the secondary ticket market. So that's not the first time you get the ticket but you're now trying to resell it. And one of the things that he wants to do and this is really to return to paper tickets because he thinks that that will be less dicey for folks and less chance for more greed to come into the process. But others are pushing back on that and saying that that's not necessarily the case. Where do you fall down on this. You know it's a really complicated issue and here is why a lot of the people that are pushing for paperless tickets and our Live Nation and Ticketmaster because they want to be able to control not only the first time it's sold but also the second time

that that ticket is sold on a secondary market. Live Nation the world's largest promoter and Ticketmaster the world's largest ticketing agent. They own a secondary sale site called tickets now which is very much like a stub hub although less people tend to use it it's not quite as popular and what they would like to do through this paperless technology is control that ticket not only get some of the service fees the first time it's sold but also get some of those service fees. The second time that it's sold now double on the other hand. God I'm sorry I said double dipping. Right. The ABS absolutely on the other hand though this is a tough one for fans because for instance Radiohead just played a big show in New York City at Roseland Ballroom and what they did was only put tickets on sale at the box office you could buy a pair. You had to show up hand over your credit card and you were escorted into the venue. Now that's great if you're a hardcore fan and you have the time and energy and you can make that sort of commitment and

you know that you know work isn't going to keep you late you know that your kids aren't sick. So it's really a complicated issue as to what might happen. And New York state recently had to deal with this particular issue and what New York state said is there can be paperless tickets but consumers have to have an option as to whether or not they want to use them or not there has to at least be the chance to have old school hard copy hard tickets to get into these shows you know. I said I really do see it both ways I can understand. On behalf of the real strong strident fans of a group who don't want to see all the best seats taken as soon as the show goes on sale by people who are then going to scalp them. On the other hand it is really hard for some of us out there who have kids and you know tickets to a lot of these shows go on sale you know eight nine months out I think Lady Gaga tickets went on sale a year in advance so you know if you don't you know it's hard to know you know what am I going to be doing on October

8th 2012. If I have a paperless ticket and I can't I'm not able to sell it if I'm not able to do anything with it. I mean I think that's I think that's really challenging and for a lot of consumers it simply doesn't seem very fair. You're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH an online at WGBH dot org. I'm callin Crossley. We're getting the lowdown on the ticket galloping industry with my guest Dean Budnick. He's the co-author of Ticketmaster's the rise of the concert industry and how the public got scalped. He's also the executive editor of relics magazine. So is this all about the free market or is this just straight up a monopoly. Yes and yes I think to some degree listen a lot of people thought that it was a monopoly particularly when again Live Nation biggest world's biggest promoter ticket master world's biggest ticketing a big world's biggest ticketing agent and on top of that these companies own front

line management which is the world's largest management group that controls any number of popular performers out there. And the Department of Justice took up this case and thought about it for a year but ultimately decided it's not in a legal monopoly as per the Sherman Antitrust Act as we have today. All Although Unquestionably it sort of looks and smells a bit like it I'd say. So in your book you do recall the efforts by some groups like the Grateful Dead to make a space for consumers outside of this either. However you look at a free market situation or Monopoly and that's been somewhat successful Can you talk about that a little bit. Yeah I mean the Grateful Dead I mean it's sort of funny to me that you know probably the most anarchic of bands ultimately were the ones that took on Ticketmaster and won. And the way it worked was something like this Ticketmaster when it signs a contract with a venue with a facility it through that contract receives 100 percent of the

tickets that the promoter puts on sale and the Grateful Dead wanted to come in and sell 50 percent of the seats to any of those shows to its fans through its own ticketing service and Ticketmaster ultimately became frustrated with this because it's 50 percent of the money that it wasn't earning through service fees. And the two of them ultimately had a sit down which we recount in the book and Ticketmaster I would contend caved. I think the CEO of Ticketmaster simply would say he was a very good partner with with. The Grateful Dead. But anyhow the bottom line is the Grateful Dead was able to sell 50 percent of the tickets Now this happened in the early 1990s and over a decade later people don't really know this story a smaller band called The String Cheese Incident based out of Colorado. They tried to do the same thing they had set up their own ticketing service and once again they wanted to take on Ticketmaster there was a new CEO Fred Rosen who had been the leader who had found really had led the

move that Ticketmaster made to become the number one player in the market he had gone and the String Cheese Incident also asked for 50 percent of the tickets to the shows and Ticketmaster said no. And the String Cheese Incident then brought them into court hoping intending to sue them for the right to sell all these tickets and ultimately what occurred is Ticketmaster settled out of court and allowed the band to sell those 50 percent and nobody really knew this at the time this took place in 2003 into 2004. But you know we relate this for the first time really in the book and I mean I think in theory it is a path that other bands can take if they want to make. Make sure that their best you know that their fans have tickets if they want to can have a little bit more control of what goes on in the live setting. Well it seems to me that just based on the groups that you talked about pushing back because you also you know Pearl Jam didn't have exactly the most positive

experience in trying to push back that it almost has to be an established band so I imagine your new upcoming band is kind of hot. Do you have time to be thinking about manage this or you're just trying to get some fans in the seats right. One question I think that's part of the issue is you really have to have a support network behind you that's willing to take the initiative I mean like the Grateful Dead they ultimately hired up you know upwards of a dozen people at times and you do have to have some leverage so when emerging as probably is not going to have that kind of leverage to take the initiative for themselves to try to sell their own tickets. Now the guy who's president of stuff wrote an editorial for The Boston Globe and in it he cites Kevin Hassett who is the director of the Economic Policy Studies in Washington and he said that his reports found that anti scalping laws actually increase ticket prices. I wanted you to address that. Is that right.

Well I think that Chris SACA lockouts by the way is how you pronounce it. I mean I avoided it you notice that I mean I'm very That's why I introduced it I'm very happy to say that I could pronounce his last name. Chris Archilochus I mean he does he does believe that you know it's hard it's hard to know I'll tell you this here's something in a somewhat parallel vein that I think is interesting which is that competition amongst various promoters in the concert industry actually does raise prices. You would think that if let's say that were Live Nation were competing against another independent promoter out there for the right to put on a show that the two of these competing against each other that in theory prices would fall but what would happen in that case is the way that those two those two promoters would vied to route to get the axe to agree to do the show with them as they offer the performers more and more money. So in that instance which is not to have the same but somewhat parallel you see how competition actually raises prices which is not instinctively what people might think. Now as

to anti scalping legislation I believe the thought behind that is there's not an open forum in which anyone like moms and pops everybody out there can sell their tickets as a result. There are just a few individuals who make their living. On the secondary market as brokers they're charging more and the people who otherwise might want to do it. Someone who just can't go to a show because something came up at home because all of a sudden they have to stay late at work. Those people are not the people who are going to sell those tickets and those people generally speaking are going to sell their tickets for face value or close to it. So if you look at a statistically it does make sense in terms of what Chris is arguing. All right well here's the thing that I just don't understand why they're able to continue to be successful in charging these price prices because we are in a recession. People have to be very careful about spending their

entertainment money and they can stay home and watch Netflix. So how what's happening as these prices just keep going up is not there a consumer pushback of some sort. To a degree there has been but generally speaking when we're talking about the tickets that fetch the highest prices on the secondary market those are the very best seats in the house. And we're talking about the people who are thriving the very small number who are thriving within this economic climate and the you know the rich get richer and so it goes. Whereas where people in general are having problems where bands are having problems and where promoters are having problems and you can see this on the secondary market is the seats that are in the you know in the lawn or the seats that are in the back of the house and those are the seats that aren't moving which is why I don't know if you saw this earlier this summer Live Nation cut a deal with Groupon in an effort to sell you know basically half priced seats to a lot of their shows which really was an effort to sort of dump a lot of inventory.

But look kind of cool and cutting edge because you're doing it with with a group on which everybody happens to be talking about these days. So there's no question that what what you spoke of is true I think and accurate but when it comes to the best best seats in the house there really are people who in this day and age do seem willing and able to pay for them. Well one of the people who reviewed your book said cited the quote on the back of it talking about. Now you'll be depressed about spending $400 for tickets but you know at least you know why. So yes you. Given the background on this and bearer of bad tidings. Yeah I tell you Dane Well you know what I. You won't see me in these alive nation states I can tell you that. At least I know why they cost so much thank you so much for talking to us. Thanks Or have we been talking about getting gouged at the box office with Dean Budnick. He's the co-author of Ticketmaster's the rise of the concert industry and how the

public got scalped and he's the executive editor of relics magazine. Up next we look at a sector of the entertainment that's getting hit hard. Small music news in Massachusetts. We'll be back after this break. Keep your dial on WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is on WGBH thanks to you. And Plymouth Plantation presenting Harvest Dinner with the Pilgrims where you can take a delicious journey into the past with a savory autumn feast and an evening of colonial entertainment. Tickets are ON SALE NOW. More info at p l i m

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session Americana. He joins me today to weigh in on all things fire code regulations. Ry please explain. I was hoping you wouldn't ask that question. I guess there are some new regulations that have come into the state starting in June and I don't know exactly what the details are of it but the venue's that we regularly play and have had to remove quite a few seats and it was the way that they're dealing with that is cutting budget and raising ticket prices and. Ultimately what bands go away with is a little less sense. Well as we mentioned earlier in the show this is the reason why a lot of small venues are sold out. And you as you make a point in your piece you know you the fan get into the location and you think this is a look sold out to me. I don't understand it. And it's back to these occupancy rules that were initiated by the fire department which was

really interesting to me because they include in the numbers of people that could be in the venue at any time. The members of the band. So if you have a seven to 10 member band I don't know how many members are in your band tell me how many members in your band. SIX SIX. That is six less from the number of 100 that can then be in these small spaces. Yeah and our band is also a collaborative band so on any given night we usually have between two and six guest musicians and that could be someone that's a handgun less than yeah yeah. But and that's frustrating for the club because they have to count those. Well in advance so if Peter Wolf calls and says I'm coming tonight you as a club could be put in a situation where you go that there's no room. We've actually sold all those seats because it's not as flexible. And it also includes the. The bartenders and staff and door people and anyone who's occupying

the room. So let's give people a real life example that's Club Passim and name bridge. They had to remove 23 seats that they might have been able to sell because they have to count the ban. Yeah bartender. And now according to the rules you have to have a permanent crowd management person or you know who has to always make certain that the fire regulations are being adhered to. Yeah and they have to take a training. I mean I did a lot of research because I knew it was coming in here and I actually asked our fanbase via email and Facebook to respond in a couple of club owners actually responded because they're on our list and. In the case of Club Passim. They actually had to remove those seats and it includes people that might potentially be in the restaurant which as they co-habitate with a restaurant. So if there's no one in the restaurant there could be under sold but they have to cut those out. And in addition to that each of their staff members well they have to have a series of

staff members who are trained as crowd managers and so that's an additional time consumption and cost. Just so everybody who's listening is not thinking well why. I mean this seems like a weird thing. You know why why are we imposing these rules and regulations on these small clubs. I mean it grew out of sincere interest to try to protect everybody in those small venues may be the consumers or the band following on the heels of the White Station Fire the horrible fight station fire in Rhode Island where so many people were killed because of the fire couldn't get out to crowded all of the stuff that these regulations attempt to address. So you can understand then. Absolutely. But that fire was caused by pyrotechnics. I mean no one at Club Passim is putting off any pyrotechnics I mean I understand the need to tighten up these rules but that was a specific situation which I mean that was a grave mistake on the part of the act. Oh really.

Well OK so from your vantage point as a musician and by the way let's have a listen to some of your music so people know what your band sounds like when you're playing. Here's session Americana and their track water never runs uphill. It was recorded live at one of our local venues the lizard lounge in Cambridge. They say. The water never runs up hill there. Oh they say. Never runs up. The Hill. But. Most of the. Voters are. Going to vote. All right so that's that section American of that's my guess band

and I'm speaking to ry Cavanagh He's a member of the Cambridge based band S. America. We're talking about how these new regulations that went into place June 1st of June are hurting small music venues like the lizard lounge. Now in this rant that you wrote that we are aware of you're saying you said in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't matter that much musicians will keep making music and venues will continue to do stage performances. But isn't it really time that we stop taking this part of our culture for granted. So what are we losing. If a club like Seymour or lizard lounge has to go away because they can't you know adhere to these things and stay open I think there's a few things that get lost in it. Some of them are to quantify but. First of all I think you lose a training ground for the bands that everyone is eventually going to like even if you don't go to Club Passim. You've heard of the band Bob Dylan you know or people who've come through and without clubs like that you don't really get you know you're going to get the next

Wilco unless there's a lizard lounge you know it's they have to play somewhere first so that's one reason. Another thing is that a lot of our community. When I asked them about it talked about quality of life in general and that live music venues and performance venues theaters things like that benefit the entire society by creating a vibrancy essentially and an economic impact in the sense that you're drawing people out of their homes and those people are spending money in the clubs that you're at. Getting there somehow public transportation or otherwise probably going out and getting a bite to eat. So this is all economic activity and if you look outside of the city where we play in some places that last 10 years recently it's pretty dramatic. I mean if you lose a live music venue in a rural part of New Hampshire or there was a club in popular Vermont that's gone it's really hard to replace that and an entire region actually loses a cultural resource. And in the last segment I know you were talking about the expense

of these things well these are also markets that aren't served by these kind of venues you know Live Nation doesn't have a venue that people can drive to in some of these locations. This is the only entertainment that they get. And it's really good quality entertainment and it's more than that it's a community center it's a people place where people meet and kids come and learn about music and meet musicians it's very accessible and it's very affordable. So after you wrote your as you yourself described rant about all of this going on. What kind of response did you get from consumers were they saying finally somebody tell me what's going on because I couldn't figure out what was happening or I did get some of that. Yeah. And a lot of people were really interested concerned you. I think that there's a sense well from the responses I got there's a sense that I think people are really sad that the wider community doesn't really understand the value of something that they value really a lot.

So I think that was a frustration for them and the thought that we would neglect to think about. You know there's a lot of carrot and stick so this felt like a stick like you've got to shape up these little clubs but it felt like to a lot of us like there should be somebody saying but we're also going to do this thing that's going to improve customer service or what's available for the customer and the bands and the clubs and. I think if somebody was out there saying the legislature saying well what about these venues. I think we could come up with some ways to maybe offset. Some of this. Well I don't care so much I would dare say a lot of lawmakers and even know that this is happening so are there any movers. Is there are any people talking to lawmakers to talk to them about you know ways maybe to adapt this these regulations. Well I know that there are arts organizations locally not specifically for pop music or rock n roll music or anything like that but I know there are a lot of arts organizations that do Community Planning and they do consulting and they

do grant writing and all that sort of stuff to deal with this specifically I don't think there is an organization that's that's there that's a reference point for for venues and bands and musicians and community members who are interested in the stuff. So your rant your email to your fans allowed to let them know what's going on may be the first opening in this discussion. And also here with us. All right. Thank you so much we're going to go out on session americanus track the shape I'm in which we're doing was recorded again in a local small venue the lizard lounge. We've been talking about how fire code regulations are hurting small music venues and I've been joined by musician Cavanagh. He's a member of the Cambridge based band session Americana. Thanks again. Thank you. Up next Johnson also will give us the lowdown on buying bargain wines. We'll be back after this break stay with us. WGBH programs exist because of you. And sappy fine paper North

America protecting natural resources is integral to everything they do because everyone's future depends on environmental sustainability. You can learn more at sappy dot com slash. And Boston Private Bank and Trust Company committed to helping successful individuals and businesses accumulate. Preserve and grow their wealth. You can learn more at Boston private bank dot com. And Harvard Vanguard Medical Associates making it easier for patients to be healthy. With 21 locations across Greater Boston Harvard Vanguard welcomes new patients and accepts most insurance Care Made Easy dot org an affiliate of Atrios health. Next time on the world a program that invites young people from around the globe to work in the United States. It's supposed to be a cultural exchange. I don't know how much cultural exchange actually getting if you're getting fish in Alaska or packing candy bars in Pennsylvania. Why some argue the J1 visa program is just a pipeline for cheap foreign labor. That's next time on the world. Coming up at 3:00 here on eighty nine point seven The

WGBH. WGBH is looking for people with a passion for Public Media. A ton of energy and a couple or three days a month sounds like someone you know they could be a WGBH volunteer. Think of that huge huge radio and television about AWG events. When people come and support public broadcasting with the most valuable resource of your time. Today. At WGBH dot org slash volunteer insights ideas and opinions about issues rooted here in Boston who is now the park manager of the Cape Cod Canal shows trails were under construction for bicycles horses and off road vehicles. Local issues local talk Boston Public Radio. I'm Kelly Crossley we're talking about the cost of entertainment today and here in the studio with me is our wine specialist Jonathan also a founder of the Boston Wine School. He's

also host of The Boston Wine School radio show Saturdays. OK. Talk about cheap lives for hard times. Johnson welcome back Kal it's great to be back. Great great to great to be back and have some good news. Yes and the good news is well well OK I've got some good news and I got some bad already the bad news is you know it's the freakiest economy in five decades. The good news is we are living in a golden age of cheap wine. The timing cheap delicious wine the timing could not possibly be any better. And when you say cheap you know I mean you mean good fine wine that is inexpensive. You know by cheap I mean under $10. Yes under $10 and then you know one of the challenges people ask all the time you know what is it that makes you know a $75 wine or $100 wine or or is a 40 dollar wine really really four times better than a $10 wine what's going on. And for a lot

of people. There's no there doesn't seem to be a correlation between how much the wine costs and how much they like it. I mean everyone's had an eight dollar wine that they've been totally in love with everyone's had $25 wine is kind of left luke warm. So you know we're looking under $10 but we're always looking for bargains and we're always looking for something that you know might just be $10 but might taste like it's 20 or or or 25. All right well you got to talk about this Greek. What. OK I love this one I want to keep this really you know keep this super current So this is my first of the of the euro meltdown wines. This is this is this is a white wine that's a blend of two grapes that no one outside of Greece has ever heard of before. The one white grape is called Red detests and the other white grape is called Moscow feel a rope. You can now completely forget because the brand the brand name of this wine this is

by a vineyard called school Ross. That's the name of the winery and the brand name of this wine white. I'm not kidding. I'm not getting it that's it that's the brand they screwed us white. So you don't want forget that when you go to the you know I can't make it any you know we have to drive it to your house and open it for you. You know how much is it. How much simpler can we make it. And this is you know eight nine nine ninety nine. In the end it's Alicia it's delicious and you know these two white grapes you know must go feel the rope maybe we've never heard of them before. But that's to our advantage. You know famous famous trendy you know grapes of the moment are much more expensive something something no one's ever heard of before something that you have to explain to a person that just is going to. That just brings the price right down there. Well I like this one because it's kind of like Sauvignon Blanc and it's a green wine. So that appeals to my taste aesthetic I like a kind of a green white wine.

Absolutely if you like So Blanca if you like citrus see crisp Pino Greek Geo you're going to like this. And chicken and seafood dishes very food friendly very food friendly I mean this is the sort of thing that as you are demonstrating now so eloquently you can just enjoy it on its own yeah. So ever. It's the kind of thing you can drink at work you know and really does not impair you. But it's also something you know it's got a lemony. We talk about the lemony citrusy flavor. That's great with seafood anything you would put lemon on. You would drink this wine with because that's its dominant flavor is this limb a nice citrusy zesty sort of sort of flavor. All right well let's move to your next one OK. Next wine is from Spain. And you know this wine we have you know this is sort of in recognition of

Spain's 20 percent unemployment rate. So usually winemakers officially officially 20 percent some people estimate that it's even it's even much higher. This is from a winery called spelt and spelt is in the south eastern. South eastern Spain right by the French border it's closer to France that it is to Barcelona. It's right on the French border and really even though it's culturally and linguistically Spanish or officially it's really just an extension of that whole Mediterranean are part of it's in Italy part of its In France part of its in Spain but it's this ancient is the most ancient part of northern Europe is this Mediterranean are called as spelt in the grape is called Gar not. So Gar not you in Spain but. Not in France run in France it's exact two different names for

exactly exactly the same cost cost 999. We like that nine or nine and I like it because it's kind of a little bit spicy and I like that spice very spicy but not heavy it's not heavy. No it's not heavy but you I mean I would just I would describe this wine is as rich. Yes you know this is this is not a light red wine this is not you know if you were imagining a range of wine color you know this is not over in the Peano Why are rain rhinos alight Garnett Pino and why this is over like kind of in the in the you know the cabernet Siraj. This range and one thing another thing that we. That we love about this wine this grape Gar Nacho which the French call Granada is the main one of the principal grapes of much much much more expensive wines. And so you can find French wine called Chateau in if to pop. Yeah. You know growing in France is a huge part of

that blend. And that's you know 30 40 50 100 dollars a bottle. You know here outside of France you know in Spain where you're not expecting it it's just much much more of a bargain. Well if people haven't figured out your theme is you know go outside the U.S. borders really for some inexpensive wines right now. Yes that's that's always a good strategy. Another thing I like is to look for. You know we don't and I don't I don't really trade in foreign currency that much you know my investments are much more modest. OK. But when it comes to looking for bargain wines look for someplace where the dollar is still comparatively strong. You know the dollar is struggling against the euro that's making Europe that's its upward price pressure on European wines which you look to South America where the dollar is still relatively strong you can find some awesome bargains from Chile I love the Santa Rita Carmen air.

I love that Carmen there and in the Santa Rita the thing that's great about Santa Rita is they make you know make they make the 120 which you can find you know for $7 a bottle. They make their straight ahead Carmen air which is $10 a bottle and they make a reserve Carmen near the reserve. Which is a whopping $13 a bottle so you can step up in quality and style of wine and still be playing around just within like four or five dollars of where. Where you normally are. I've been recommending Chilean wines to lots of folks because of the price point and also the deliciousness of it. Yes and I think what happens sometimes is you know we go to the wine store and we just go right to our normal whatever. So in this case I would say to people if you're kind of a murder low person you know that Carmen there is where you should try you're going there. Yeah absolutely. And it's fun and it's funny that you mention it because for decades in Chile they mis understood the vast fields of Carmen Carmen

is the name of the great and it's a red grape and it's a lot like Marlow. And for decades they totally misunderstood and they thought they thought all of this Carmen air was actually murdered. And everybody and anybody everybody used to say you know I love this I love this chili and but I wonder why it tastes so different from all the rest of them are low as well. The reason why is it more low. It's Carmen there and that's a great bargain. Our Argentinean Mal back. Which people are totally totally loving and when you say this about Germany or that I really like about it. Some people may find interesting. I like the look the real the pepper and it the spice. Yeah you know which is great with steak and BBQ and some people like it with game food. That doesn't interest me but well very pricey very smoky very rugged and rustic. You know it's the kind of thing that you know you you would you know you couldn't you could have pork chop you could have steak you could have something you know a little bit tame but you can also go a little wild to lamb goat

you know. And then you know something you know something that's a little bit you know something it's a little bit more combative something like harmony or will really really work for them. And about that now back to oh yes. Yeah. Malbec great great red grape originally comes from France and there is still plenty of malbec that's grown in France but is just not a big part of the picture. And you know it's in some ways it's the classic immigrant success story you know used used as a blending grape in Europe you know blended with a much more famous aristocratic wines you know Malbec is brought to Argentina and really becomes the signature grape of Argentina and has just had incredible success there's astronomically there's astronomically more Malbec grown in Argentina than there is in France I've you know I'm sure I'm exaggerating but there are some there are some

vineyards that are literally hundreds of tears hundreds and hundreds of acres of malbec in Argentina and I'm sure some of these contain more than all of France potentially all of France put together. While I think it's because Argentina has made its wines a little bit more accessible for people who feel intimidated by those old world wines you know France and Italy and you know and now back I always say is the red wine for people who don't think they like red yeah yeah yeah this is the wine that can make the transition well you know you know it's and it's the flavor of Malbec is deep and powerful and abiding. But you know it's not really super forward it's not in your face it's not really spicy or hot toward juice. You know it's not in is no extremes is just sort of. You know it's like it's kind of like Barry White. You know it's just sort of rumbling you know sort of a rumbling in the lower still but very very smooth very smooth very smooth.

And people like the fact that is not an extreme you know can we talk about wine in architectural terms you know it's you know Malbec is not a spiky y you know it's not pointy. It's smooth in and easy to drink. Now one of your favorites and mine too is now back. Yes. Which people can find because the label is beautiful There's a tree on the end of it and it's the little linden tree. I guess Tilly is the Latin name for Linden Yeah. And so you know I don't even have to search for the name 899 yet just look for this beautiful imagery. It's kind of a fall look it's got sort of a sort of a tan sort of goldenrod label which is this beautiful linden tree rendered on the front of it. It's gorgeous. 899 also and you know and for people who like Mal back of course now now back is like become so completely popular you know. You know now Beck is yesterday's news and now there's got to be like the new mail back. So the new me. So I don't you know I know I you know I just started drinking it already so it's like my cell phone it's already old but the

new Malbec is a grape called. Yes yes this is a great which is new to me. Same story this is a grape from northern Italy that used to be super popular in Northern Italy has now has now faded in popularity in Europe. Huge huge in Argentina. And so it's called Bernard. One of the ones I really like is from a winery called almos and Alamosa in this is no one needs to understand this is kind of an industry thing but Alamosa is like a second label of Catania in Catania is one of the the most popular most successful most talented wine families in Argentina. OK Alamo says they're second or third label but they are growing in popularity right now growing. It's growing in popularity people are looking for you know I love Mao back what else. Yeah right. You know what else I feel like an adventure tonight I feel like something different where do I go. And so this is Bono. And it is got a lot in common with Mal back

probably fruity are still still you know not really super forward not really super aggressive but maybe not as earthy and bottom heavy as Malbec can be so it's got a lot in common with Mel Beck but maybe a little fruity or you know a little easier you know Bernard is the kind of thing you know great with grill great with barbecue you know great. Bernard I always think of as a perfect Tuesday night eating a sandwich standing over the sink. Why not drink it with like cologne. I mean who has not done that you know. And that's exactly the sort of thing again. Seven ninety nine eight ninety nine for bone. No one's heard of it. No one wants it no one's discovered yet don't don't don't tell me about it don't tell me by the way we're on the radio. We're actually on the radio instead of just chatting which make sure not to talk about it because they don't want anybody to know about them. OK so just to pull it all together for everyone. Your

theory about how to go global. Expensive fine lines. Well is to look I mean one place to really look is at former despised pariah nations of the world. If you go back and see when they converted from fascism to democracy you know Portugal Spain Greece you know Greece was a military junta until 79. I mean South Africa that speaks for itself. Yeah. And even when you look at France even when you look at France the best bargains in all of France are from where Southern France the former despised Vichy collaborator part of France and. And so when we look for wines that are coming that are coming onto the market that are going to be new and exciting and provide maybe some new flavors we've never experienced before maybe some great price point you know we think we think about Eastern Europe you know hunger you know.

Hungry Romanian wines are high now are starting to get and start to get really hot yeah and wine makers are starting to discover Slovenian. Do we talk about this. Yeah we talk about that you know but I mean here's why niggers are now into Slovenia and it's like it's like that's what French oak American oak and now yesterday. Yeah it's like Slovenian in these virgin forests from the former Yugoslavia that are that are producing this incredible you know. That that I mean I have not tasted a lot of it to really like to tease out what is the flavor but supposedly it's got some some some unique you know some unique flavor characteristics and some unique texture characteristics. Yeah OK so wait you know what will taste it will see. You know we're going to we're we're open to it. But here's the thing people don't have to be afraid of trying new wine know it's this inexpensive. No no. Well exactly exactly it's not like a 40 dollar adventure. You know it's a

799 adventure. And you know and we've all got to stay ready as well. I'm working on a. I'm working on a bot right now that's a computer but a computer bot that's an algorithm that tracks the stock market in. And triggers automatic buying if two buck chuck when the stock market reaches a certain point will be available for download. Why'd I have to say as we've been doing the cost of entertainment and there's no finer entertainment than an inexpensive bottle of great wine and some popcorn that's what I say. So we've been talking about bargain wines with from Greek whites to Chili and reds with Jonathan also. He's the founder of the Boston Wine School and you can catch him also now on Saturdays from 7 8 on. W.T. K.K. radio. His latest book is wine lovers devotional 365 days of knowledge advice and lore for the Arden afficionado. Thanks Jonathan. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter and become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on

Facebook. Today's show was engineer by Jane pic produced by Chelsea Myers will Rose look at music where a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.