American Experience; The Abolitionists; Interview with John Stauffer, part 2 of 5

What was it like to be wrapped up in religion in the 1820s? One of the other characteristics about the 1820s, particularly the 1820s, is this important shift in how people conceptualize God, particularly their understands that God vis-à-vis their own place in the world. So in the early, in the early 1820s going back to the Revolution, most Americans saw God as more distant, that God would end slavery in his own time, and it would not be tomorrow, it would not be today, it would be at some distant point in the future. And the idea that God could intervene in the affairs of the world today, right now, was something very few people accepted. By the late 1820s, and especially with the rise, it's one of the characteristics of the rise of the meditism, it reflected the notion that God was what's known as eminent, as well as eminent. God was here and now, God was a reality in your life right now.

He could affect and transform your world and the nation, and it was incumbent upon you as a good Christian to heed his word and his will. And of course, every abolitionist believed that God saw slavery as the worst sin in the world. And so by the early 1830s, with the rise of immediatism, there was an understanding that one should no longer compromise with this horrible sin. Because after all, the millennium, this new dispensation, which would wipe out slavery and wipe out evil, was at hand, and it's incumbent upon us as righteous Christians to pave the way for it. So did they, it sounds like you for a moment, they thought this was going to work? It was, it was truly you for a moment. And it's one of the reasons why, from the 1830s, 1840s, 1850s, at one materialist level slavery is expanding, slave owners are becoming more and more powerful, and yet abolition is

never waver in their faith or their hope that any day, any moment, slavery can end. It makes no logical, rational sense, because after all, on the graph, if you were to graph in terms of the notion of time and progress, the trend line is going straight down. And yet, they still believe that although the trend line is going straight down tomorrow, today, next week, you can have this glorious rebirth of the nation and of ourselves. And did Douglas subscribe to, you know, we know that the northern white, does Douglas subscribe? He did subscribe to that, Douglas, when he is, is returned to the Eastern Shore, at one point, he says that he sees God in the leaves of the trees, he sees God's presence, feels his power on the Eastern Shore of Maryland.

Douglas was truly a prophet, like Garrison, like every other immediate abolitionist. They were certain that they knew God, that they believed that they were acting out God's will. In essence, they weren't that much different from John Brown, who explicitly characterized himself as an instrument in God's hands. And that notion of, it's called prophecy, or the prophetic tradition in the United States. It goes from the Quakers through Garrison and Douglas and other abolitionists on down to Martin Luther King, Jr., and George W. Bush. And one of the great virtues of prophecy is that it gives one a sense of power, that even though I'm only one small individual, with God on my side, anything is possible. And especially if you're a slave, or if you're a Garrison who's almost lynched on the streets of Boston, it provides this immense sense of confidence and empowerment, because after all, I'm not acting out my life.

My own will, I'm acting out God's will. And it also alleviates this sense of responsibility in burden. You know, if a few people die, if what I do creates this absolute social chaos and revolution and bloodshed, I'm not to blame, because I'm simply heating God's will. So, you mentioned Douglas being back on the Eastern Shore, what was life like the Douglas on the Code, and, excuse me, on the Code. When Frederick Douglas is sent back to the Eastern Shore, it relates to the death of Aaron Anthony, his legal owner, and he's then given to Thomas Alde, who wants him back. And it's very difficult for Douglas in part, because when Douglas returns to the Eastern Shore, he's now literate. What happens when you're a slave with literacy? You now have dignity, you now have a sense of pride, you now have a sense of self-worth. And so he is, we'll talk back to Thomas Alde.

He'll stare Thomas Alde in the eye, and that's totally unacceptable for a slave. So let's try to start to Sunday school with other slaves on the Eastern Shore, teaching them the Bible and the lessons of freedom in the Bible, and teaching them literacy. Thomas Alde finds out and immediately puts a stop to him, and in fact, one white in the Eastern Shore says, if you continue like this, you're going to become another Nat Turner and have, you know, 100 bullets in you. So Thomas Alde comes to the conclusion that I can no longer discipline, properly discipline Douglas. So he decides to hire him out to a man in the Eastern Shore named Edward Covey who was notorious for being what was known as a slave breaker. He made and had made a name for himself as being able to break the will of any slave, which is in the minds of a master what you wanted, because in the minds of a master a slave should not have a will.

His will should be an extension of the master. So Douglas is hired out to Edward Covey for a year. It was a very common practice throughout the South, so it was a newty for Thomas Alde. And Covey was truly sadistic. He whipped Douglas mercilessly, at least once a week, for the first six months, during Douglas's employee with Covey for no reason at all. And Douglas said the welts on his back were as thick as his thumb, they had not let yet healed, and he'd receive a new whipping. And after enduring the sadism for roughly six months, Douglas decided to stand up to Covey. He had been brutalized, his hopes for freedom had virtually vanished. He said the only way out was to stand up to this tyrant. And he did so, and they entered into this epic two-hour fight. Now Douglas was very sure, first of all Douglas, by this point he's a teenager, he's a very big, ultimately he becomes between six-one and six-two.

He's roughly six feet, very broad shoulder from having worked on the farm. And at the time the average height of men is only five-six. Covey is about the average height of men, he's a wily five-six, five-seven. So Douglas towers over, and Douglas is much bigger and stronger than Covey. Douglas probably could have seriously, main Covey, or even killed him, had he wanted to. But he knew that if he did, he'd be either killed himself or sent into the cotton fields of Alabama and Mississippi from which he could never recover. So in this two-hour epic fight, his goal was simply to defend himself, prevent Covey from hurting him seriously. And essentially Covey got tired and he gave up. And at the end of this two-hour fight, Douglas said famously that Covey was mastered by a boy of sixteen. And Douglas said from the end of that fight, he said that my life as a slave, cut my fight with Covey was the turning point in my life as a slave.

He said from that moment, the embers of freedom revived my vision of liberty revived. And essentially from that moment, for his remaining ten years of slave, he schemed whenever he could to become free. He was truly transformative. And Douglas never knew why Covey did not punish him after all. This is this famous slave breaker who is beaten by a slave boy. Why wouldn't he whip him or dismember him? And Douglas speculated that the reason Covey didn't punish him for this is because he wanted to preserve his reputation as a slave breaker. And in fact, Covey never touched Douglas again. That's great. Thank you very much. So by August 41, Douglas's escapes and he's moved to New Bedford somewhere in the United States.

And what were Douglas's first impressions of Covey? So in 1841, Douglas had been a free man, technically fugitive, but living as a free man for three years. He escaped on September 3rd, 1838. It was the day he, from that day forward, always characterizes his birthday. He went to New Bedford because he was told by the head of the vigilante committee in New York City, David Ruggles, that New Bedford was a wailing city with a lot of quakers that were comparatively friendly to blacks. And Douglas worked in some cases around the clock. He worked his tail. He was married. Where his first children were born. And one of the things he did soon after he moved to New Bedford, first he changes his name to Frederick Douglass. And secondly, he begins reading William Lloyd's Garrison's Liberator. And he said that William Lloyd's Garrison's Liberator, that weekly, was sacred to him as

his Bible. Each week when it came, he read, it covered a cover. He learned about the abolition movement because of that, it inspired him to join abolition society in New Bedford and to begin to speak at abolition meetings primarily among blacks. In August of 1841, Garrison comes to New Bedford. And Douglass admitted that during this period, he had engaged in hero worship. This was the age, the heroic age Thomas Carlisle had published his best selling on heroes in hero worship. And now Douglass has an opportunity to actually meet this man, he would worshiped Garrison. He does so in New Bedford. He is thunderstruck at the brilliance of Garrison's oration. Garrison hears a bit of Douglass's orator and he is similarly electrified by the power of it.

And it was one of the many culminations in Douglass's life, both to meet this man who he sees as a hero and to realize that the Garrison has immense respect for Douglass. The next day, together they go to Nantucket for a major abolition convention, two day convention in Nantucket. And there are thousands of abolitionists convene to set the agenda for the fall and year to meet to hear speeches and remember, public speaking is like a professional athletic event. And Douglass is asked to speak. And it's the first time that he's ever spoken before thousands of lights. And in fact, Douglass agrees to speak. But as he stands up to begin his speech, he said, I felt myself a slave because he felt so intimidated by these thousands of whites who were glaring at him. He quickly recovered his confidence and his power and he gave a dazzling speech electrified the audience.

And Garrison spoke after Douglass, Garrison, electrified Douglass, and at the end of that day, Douglass was hired to become a full-time paid lecture for the American Anti-Slavery Society on the strength of his brilliance as an order, which reflected the fact that Douglass had been practicing from the Columbian order every chance he could. He'd go out into the wheat fields and practice his oratory, much as a basketball player will go out today, practice playing basketball, and he honed his skills as an order through that Columbian order and virtually memorized every speech and essay in it. Actually, can you just quickly tell the story of the name change? Yeah. Because it wasn't a common name. Yeah. So when Douglass fled from slavery on September 3rd, 1838 on the train in Baltimore, that eventually he reached New York City, when he left Baltimore, he was known as Frederick Bailey.

His mother named him Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey. She had high hopes for him, naming after two leaders of two great republics. But his master Thomas Ald and Hugh Ald shortened it to Frederick Bailey or Fred Bailey. But the first thing that he did when he gets on this train, passing as a free black cell was to change his name. So he went by numerous names on the trip, and when he reaches New York City, he chooses the name Johnson. And when he arrives in New Bedford, he still goes by the name of Johnson. And was it turns out every escape slave went up by the name of Johnson? And the first man who really befriended him, this black man named Nathan Johnson, said everybody, every slave comes to New Bedford, says his name is Johnson. There are too many Johnson's in here. I'm reading this book by Sir Walter Scott, The Lady of the Lake, in which this great hero and protagonist is a chiefdom, chiefdom, and his name is Douglas. Why don't you take Douglas?

Douglas is OK. I'll be Douglas, Frederick Douglas. Now the Douglas in Lady of the Lake was spelled with one S. Douglas, of course, didn't know that. Douglas knew of a Douglas with two S's because there had been a street in Baltimore, Douglas Street with two S's. So he goes by the name of Frederick Douglas with two S's. Great. Great. We're done. Now, what would I have seen in one of Douglas's engagements in the early days, what do you talk about? When Douglas was hired to become a full-time paid lecturer, he was needed by the American Anti-Slavery Society, in one sense, as much as he needed the American Anti-Slavery Society. It was really as a lecture from 1841 to 1845. His apprenticeship years, he was able to try out new methods, new or rhetorical styles and strategies to audiences. The main thing that he did was to tell his life story.

This is why the American Anti-Slavery Society needed him. Was it the New England Anti-Slavery Society that he was hired by? No. It was the American Anti-Slavery Society. And the reason I paused is because the New England Anti-Slavery Society was the state arm of the American Anti-Slavery Society, but it was the American Anti-Slavery Society. So when Douglas was hired as a full-time paid lecturer for the American Anti-Slavery Society, in many respects, the society needed him as much as he needed it, the main reason that the society needed Douglas is because it was crucially important for abolitionists to bear witness to the atrocities of slavery. And Northern audiences more than anything else wanted to hear what slavery was like. First hand from a former slave. At the moment in which Douglas was hired to become a full-time paid lecturer, there were

no ex-slaves who could speak first hand about slavery, lecturing full-time for the American Anti-Slavery Society. Partly because it's very dangerous, you're on the road, you become a public figure, it's easy to get recaptured and sent back into slavery. It's also very demanding, it's very grueling, the transportation networks were comparatively horrible, you had to pull many all-nighters, the food was off the bed, you often slept on wood floors, and you had to be a galvanizing lecturer. Douglas had all of those attributes. He had an extremely iron-clad constitution. He was a brilliant lecturer. He's willing to take the risk of telling his life story even though he knows he might be caught. So from 1841 to 1845, essentially what he does is to tell a life story. Now, wisely he doesn't name names, he doesn't say specifically where he's from, but he

provides numerous anecdotes about his life as a slave highlighting its horrific nature. In a few instances, he strips his shirt and bears his back for audiences so that they can see his scars, although that was a little too performative. And most of his speeches were extemporaneous. He became during this period a great mimic. He would mimic slaveholders and draw house of laughter. I mean, he was a true performer and he understood that that was part of his role to be able to convert audiences. And during this period, he was also truly brilliant as a public speaker. I'll give you one example of how influential he was. And beginning in 1843, the American Anti-Slavery Society embarked upon a 100-city abolition tour in which the goal was to tour 100, I think, 100 cities and to abolitionize the north.

They could not go south because freedom of speech had already been suppressed, but they went up north and then to what's now the Midwest. And they went in pairs and Douglas's partner, speaking partner, who was a white man named John Collins, they arrived in Buffalo, New York. And Buffalo at the time was this raw frontier town, the venue they had reserved for them was this dilapidated old post office, the only people there waiting to hear them speak were five old cabbys. Their dirt throughout their clothes, they didn't even seem interested in abolitionism, nobody in Buffalo seemed interested in abolitionism. And if John Collins Douglas's speaking partner was so distraught when he arrived at this dilapidated old post office, he didn't even stay to give his speech. He just took the next ferryboat back to Ohio. And so Douglas said he was left to do Baltimore by himself. That first day he spoke to the five dirty cabbys within ten days there was not a building

in Buffalo large enough to contain the people wanting to hear him speak. He spoke on the village green to what he estimated was a third to a half of the population of Buffalo, converting the multitude, so to speak to the cause of anti-slavery abolition. There's one line you said Douglas was left to do Baltimore because they Douglas were left to do Buffalo. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Okay. So Douglas said he was left to do Buffalo alone. No, we talked about this on the phone. What will Douglas plan to be segregating the trains that he can run about? Douglas was crucially important for desegregating the trains in Massachusetts and public transportation Massachusetts. He did so because he refused to sit in segregated cars. The train system at this time, there was no formal laws in which all trains were segregated.

It really depended upon each train company's position. And because it was the decision of the train company, the train companies, their purpose is to make money. So Douglas would sit in segregated cars, whites would see him sitting in cars supposedly reserved for whites. They'd try to throw him out and Douglas refused to leave. He'd hold on to his seat and in a few cases, whites who threw him out, they ripped out the seat in the process. So the train company realizes, hey, we're losing a lot of money by segregating our train. It's not worth it. And so they desegregate. Great. Now, what risks did Douglas run by publishing his narrative? When Douglas decided to publish his narrative, he, let me back up, because I'll explain what.

Douglas was so successful as a lecture for the American Anti-Slavery Society who was such a brilliant order that increasingly his audiences started accusing him of being a fraud. They said, you're such a brilliant order. You have such a command, such a talent for words and language. There's no way you could have been a slave. There's no way that you could not have had years of formal education. You must be a fraud. And that's the worst thing that you could call an abolitionist order, particularly someone like Douglas who's speaking firsthand about the conditions of slavery. So what prompted him to publish his autobiography was to thwart or avert those accusations of fraud. And so he writes his autobiography, even practicing it for the last four years or so. So it takes him less than six months. And in that autobiography, as a way to thwart or avert those accusations of fraud, he now

provides a tell-all. He names names. He tells exactly who his master is. He tells exactly where he's from. And in fact, before it's published, he gives it to Wendell Phillips, one of the leading white abolitionists, who reads the manuscript and advises Douglas that he would be best off if he just threw it in the fire, because that manuscript is going to get Douglas re-inslaved. Douglas was willing to take the risk to publish it. And it was truly a cultural event when he did publish it. It was an immediate and an immense bestseller. That narrative was published in 1845 by 1846 to 1847. Douglas was a household name in the United States. And in fact, by 1849, Frederick Douglas was better known among most Americans than Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln doesn't become well known until 1860. And this was on the strength of Douglas's autobiography.

It was exhilarating, in fact, one reviewer called it, the single most important and best book published in the United States to date. And of course, it reaches Thomas Hall, and hewold, his master's, hewold, in print says that he will go to any end possible to recapture Frederick Douglas. So the American Anti-Slavery Society understands that they have a responsibility for Douglas. They send him to the British Isles for two years to prevent him from being re-inslaived. And while he's in England, Ireland, and Scotland, he speaks to ever-growing audiences from a thousand to two thousand, three thousand, four thousand, five thousand. And he is truly a hit among the Brits. And the Brits are more sophisticated, they're more gentile, they're standard of what constitutes great oratory, with seen as higher, greater than in the United States. And his British sympathizers took such a liking to Douglas that they not only purchase his

freedom, they raise money, sent Thomas and hewold a note saying, we have your slave, let's negotiate. He's probably worth fifteen hundred two thousand dollars, we'll give you eight hundred. Try to recover him. He all agreed to it. So when Douglas returns to the United States, he's legally free. But his sympathizers in Britain and friends in Britain also gave him roughly two thousand dollars because increasingly Douglas feels that being a public order for the American Anti-Slavery Society is somewhat limiting. He's a performer but not a leader, not a social and cultural leader. And to be a leader he wants to publish a newspaper, he wants to edit and publish a newspaper, he wants to be an editor, which carried the signature of a true cultural political leader. And so that was his intention when he comes back to the United States.

I should say that he almost did not come back, Douglas loved England and Ireland and Scotland so much that he almost stayed there. Because that was the first time in his life where he experienced a dearth of racism. It was the first time where he could walk down the street and not have someone spit at him, not have let someone scowl and call him a nigger. That was the first time he could walk into any public establishment and not have someone kick him out or try to prevent him from entering. It was truly transformational. More than that England had already abolished slavery and Douglas saw in England an opportunity that could be carried to the United States. The only reason that he decided to return to the United States is because he felt a sense of responsibility and obligation to his fellow blacks. And he felt that he could help in the cause of ending slavery in the United States, which is why he returned and why he planned even before leaving to starting a newspaper. So, yeah, I was going to share it here, I'm going to share it here.