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I'm Philip Martin sitting in for Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. In January when the earthquake tore Haiti into Secretary Clinton said. It is Biblical the tragedy that continues to stalk Haiti and the Haitian people. And with a death toll topping 200000 those words seem apt. But what point do we stop dwelling on the body count in the catastrophe and ask the important questions. How did it get to this point and what can be done moving forward. Questions that are near impossible to answer without understanding the history of Haiti. Outsiders see Haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere. Haitians view their motherland as the only country to undergo a successful slave revolution in this part of the world. How important is it to reconcile these opposing perceptions. Critically important say our guest. That is if we're committed to understanding how Haiti can and will get beyond this tragedy of biblical proportions. Up next Haiti and its history. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying after two weeks of

increases first time claims for unemployment benefits in the U.S. fell modestly last week. NPR's Frank Langfitt has details. Initial claims fell by about 30000 last week but the total number of claims nearly 400 70000 remain high by any standard. The U.S. economy is growing in the final three months of 2009. The gross domestic product expanded by nearly 6 percent at an annual pace. But many businesses are still reluctant to hire. Nearly 15 million people remain out of work and the job market has yet to turn around. In January the economy saw another net loss of 20000 jobs. Tomorrow all eyes will turn to the Labor Department as it releases its figures for February. Analysts expect the labor market shrank again by about 50000 jobs. Frank Langfitt NPR News Washington. Voters are coming under attack in Iraq days before a nationwide parliamentary elections are held in at least two strikes. In Baghdad suicide bombers attacked security

personnel who were casting early ballots. At least 12 soldiers and police officers were killed more than 30 others were injured. Chelah is in for a long recovery from an earthquake that has claimed more than 800 lives and displaced tens of thousands of survivors. Now outgoing President Michelle Bachelet warns it could take the country three to four years to rebuild. We have more from NPR's Jason Beaubien in Santiago on local radio this morning present Michelle Bachelet said she lanes in the quake ravaged parts of the country are suffering immensely and her government is working without stop to make sure relief supplies reach them while water electricity service has resumed in much of the capital. Most people in the area around Concepcion still lack basic services. Nationwide tens of thousands of homes have been completely destroyed. Prison bus lead said the rebuilding of schools roads hospitals and other public infrastructure will dominate the four year term of her successor. But she leaves office next week. She said the country will probably need to rely on

international loans to finance the reconstruction. Jason Beaubien NPR News Santiago. Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sibelius is calling on the nation's largest insurers to be more transparent. In a meeting today with several insurance commissioner Sibelius also told the group that hikes in premiums are a key reason President Obama's health care plan should become law. Meanwhile President Obama is scheduled to hold the first of two health care meetings with Democratic legislators this hour. He is urging the party to unite behind his plan. But Michigan Congressman Bart Stupak told ABC this morning that he and 11 other Democrats are ready to block the bill's passage overcurrent language regarding abortion. At last check Dow is up 20 points. This is NPR News. A former airport security chief is suing the city of Chicago. He claims he was fired for repeatedly complaining about lax security at O'Hare International. Details from Chicago Public Radio Susie on O'Hare is one of the world's

busiest airports but former chief of security James Marsh says it's not the safest Mars suing the city of Chicago and officials from the Department of Aviation. The lawsuit says Steph continually dismissed Maher's efforts to make the airport safer. The suit continues to say airport executives lacked experience in policing and anti-terrorism strategies. MAHER cites a few specific security threats including a shortage of patrol officers but refrained from listing others saying the information is sensitive. Mario was fired last year for what he says was a false allegation that he had assaulted an airport executive. The city's Department of Aviation says safety is a top priority but would not comment on the lawsuit. For NPR News I'm Susie on in Chicago. Companies are coming out or more pressure to hire the Labor Department reporting today output rose at an annual rate of six point nine percent in the final months of 2009 However economists say there is only so much growth businesses can achieve without adding jobs so sooner or later they will have to

consider rehiring workers and the latest snapshot on factory orders the results are the highest in four months in January demand surge 1.7 percent following the huge boost in orders for commercial airplanes two subsidiaries of American International Group will pay more than six million dollars to settle claims of discrimination against African-American borrowers. Court documents were filed today. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Carnegie Corp. of New York a foundation created to do what Andrew Carnegie called real and permanent good celebrating 100 years of philanthropy. Good afternoon I'm Philip Martin sitting in for Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show to lend your voice to today's conversation give us a call. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. I'm going to repeat that again. 8 7 7 3 0

1 8 9 7 0. You can also e-mail us at Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot or G. That's Crossley would two S's by the way in talking about Haiti where the death toll from January's earthquake now stands at more than 200000. It's almost a sure bet that the word tragedy will appear in the same sentence. That's how we've come to know Haiti as a metaphor for tragedy. That and the fact that it is often cited as the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere is the extent of our knowledge about that Caribbean island nation. And that's a major problem moving forward says Our guest today. Without knowing Haiti's past how can we expect to understand how it might overcome 200 years of yes tragedy but also triumphs. We're joined today by Laurent Dubois professor of history and romance Studies at Duke University and author of Avengers of the new world the story of the Haitian revolution. He's currently working on a short history of Haiti from Colonial Times to the present day. We're

also joined by Fabio on the set a professor of education at New York University. And later in the hour we'll talk to IRA Kurtz ban the longtime attorney for deposed Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Listeners What do you know about Haiti and how does that affect your thinking about what's happening there today. Give us a call. The number again 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. Or e-mail us. You can always do that. It's Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot o r g. Let's again as the more that lets us that relevant question what do you know about Haiti. And it's a question I'm going to ask now of our guest. We'll start with Laurent Dubois again professor of history and romance Studies at Duke University. PROFESSOR Yes. That is having me today. That's the operative question.

What it does it seems that a lot of there are a lot of stories about Haiti obviously but there doesn't seem to be a lot of background. How important is it that we understand history in order to understand what's happening there today. Well I think it's really vital and in a sense of giving context to to the present the present issue and the longer term issues as well. We tend to in the United States tend to hear about Haiti only at moments of crisis and in a sense the memory isn't very long in each moment is a kind of almost a process of re-education people suddenly learn about Haiti. And in some ways it's very difficult to understand if you don't understand how the longer term structural issues at play in that country shape the way of an event like this will take place there. And in some ways it's a it's a particularly crucial case of needing to know. The larger history in order to understand where and where to move forward because the larger history is one that has included a great deal of kind of foreign pressure and foreign intervention that has not been really for the good ultimately in Haiti so we have to think very carefully about how other

countries interact with Haiti and with its people at a moment like this when obviously a great deal of international effort is is going on in the country. And where do we start I mean there are a lot of dates out there but of course history is not just about dates. We could start with for example 18 0 2 when the French forces are led by Napoleon's brother in law failed to conquer and conquer Haiti at least the Haitian interior or we can start with 18 0 4 where where do we start and why is it important. Well I do think in fact you really need to start earlier with the fact that this is a country that's born and it's created as a slave system as a slave plantation system. So this is a country created by French colonists. It's the most successful colony in the Americas produces a huge amount of wealth at its height in the 18th century. And the basic the population is made up of people who are brought in as slaves from Africa in order to work on those plantations. So in a way a lot of Haitian history since then is is built on the kind of resistance and refusal to that original system and the aspiration to kind of create a different a different sort of

order so the foundations of the system within slavery are vital for understanding what happened as well as the fact that there's an incredible a credibly powerful push throughout Haitian history very powerful Democratic push to find a better way for people to live and to create a more just and equitable order and the idea of equality is a really fundamental and Haitian political life. Precisely and in some ways because the country's foundations are in this incredibly brutal system of inequality. Well as you know New England has thousands I think hundreds of thousands of Haitians living here many of them are familiar with that history some of them art but certainly the larger population is not familiar with the history can you talk about some of the watershed events. In Haitian history that we should that we should know about it in order to inform what's happening there today in the aftermath of the this terrible earthquake. Absolutely and I think obviously one of those is the Haitian revolution which I've as I've worked on a lot in other

historians have as well. It's not just that it's important for understanding Haitian history but actually it's fundamentally important for understanding North American history too. So this is an incredible history a kind of epic in which the slaves of send a man rose up and successfully overthrew the slave system transformed themselves into citizens first of France and then ultimately when France wanted to re-establish slavery they founded a new nation. That history was intimately tied to what was going on in North America at the time. Just some of its effects include it's really the result was the Louisiana Purchase was the direct result of this because the French designs in America were transformed by this revolution. And also in a broader sense of course this became a great inspiration for many many enslaved people in North America for African-Americans for abolitionists at the same time it became a source of a great deal of fear and paranoia among North American slave holders notably Jefferson. So there's a way in which it both kind of inspired and frightened people in North America and in some ways the

roots of representations of Haiti are have to be you have to go back to that period to understand those. There are a lot of other moments in the 19th century that are worth talking about but I'll just be emphasize another moment in the early 20th century which is of course another watershed which is the United States occupation of Haiti. The US controls Haiti directly essentially as a colony from one thousand fifteen thousand nine hundred thirty four Its a very long occupation with very profound consequences for the country. And that phase involved lots of North Americans going there but also really some profound structural changes in the way that Haiti existed as a state and as a society. So there are two moments that really need to be taken into consideration and include in addition of course to the more recent history of dictatorships and political struggle in that in the late 20th century. And I would like you to elaborate on that later. One of the questions I'd like to bring in said Professor of Education at New York University one of the aspects of Haitian history that I don't think a lot of people are

aware of is what preceded the U.S. invasion by many years. And that is the. He was basically ruled by a mulatto elite am I correct. It was pure boy here or boy or he unified Haiti but he excluded blacks from power. Now this is important understanding not only Haiti but the Caribbean. The dynamics of white skin dark skin power in the Caribbean and how about affects our relations today for example between the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Could you talk about that. Sure and thank you so much for having me. Yes indeed and in fact there was in effect two Haitian States one that was in the north and one in the south one a black state one a mulatto state like you're talking about and it absolutely has important repercussions for race relations and skin color relations class relations going forward. He still very much has to. Elite. Yeah and not only that sort of division and where the elite have

ownership and they are the merchant and the ones who have a lot of political pull and power and then the people who tend to be the darker skin and who who don't have the same kind of access. And but but all of this has of course roots in colonialism and comes back to you know why white British invaders thought that it was OK to enslave Africans to begin with when they when they went to the continent and decided that these would be good people to purchase and to have work. So these are these are I think important it's important to put that in context to that sort of there's this inherent and throughout the Caribbean and actually even throughout the Americas of. Of white supremacy and white imperialism that is rooted in colonialism. So that then the Caribbean and in the US for example among blacks there is colorism but it's rooted in racism.

One of the things that I'm sorry go on. Oh I was I just was going to second that and I think it's really crucial to remember that Haiti of course it's born out of this resistance the slave system but but it's affected also very much by that system and it's very connected to these larger prophecies and I think that's really important to remember we sometimes take Haiti or in you know in North America sometimes put it aside put it into a different category but it's its story while unique is also very much linked to the broader story of the struggles for full racial equality in all the societies in the Americas. How much of the what was learned in Haiti along color lines was something that could be attributed to colonialism and how much of that if you will might have been regarded as indigenous. And did you know how much indigenous amongst the Haitians themselves. I mean because I think one of the logical questions people would ask and I think rightly so is how much of the suffering if you will

again that term like tragedy it seems to crop up all the time can be attributed to the Haitians themselves and how much of that can be attributed to colonialism and occupation. I don't know how you want to go first. OK. I mean I think obviously that's a it's a big question. Obviously there's a way in which they're kind of fundamentally intertwined you know I think there's basically almost no way to separate them in many ways the roots of the roots of the distinction comes from colonial times in the sense that there was a class of free people of color people of African descent who were free and often owned slaves and they went into the early independence period often with more land and more power at the same time there's been a new kind of groups that have come in and taken power and who haven't always been from that elite as well. The real question is about the kind of inequalities within Haiti themselves and how the relationship with the outside world has in some ways just sustained and worsened those inequalities and I think that's where the intersection between the

outside and the inside is fundamental to understanding what's going on. OK then let's. Let's pick up on that in a few minutes. I'm Philip Martin sitting in for Kelly cross lane we're talking about the history of Haiti with Laurent Dubois and Fabian Doucet in the background a tribute to Haitian history by the venerable white cliffs will be back after this break. Last night you were part of. My. Week. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Skinner auctioning fine American

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and our own entry on line dot org. Why why why. Why. Points of view. I fear your distress but there is an entire generation that essentially politics and policy as a bunch of old white guys shouting at each other. Why eighty nine point seven because it's public radio from Boston that you won't hear anywhere else. Eighty nine point seven dollars each. Join the WGBH Celtic club for a contribution of one hundred twenty dollars. Membership comes with a whole host of benefits including two complimentary tickets to join me for a St. Patrick's Day Celtic sojourn. More details at WGBH dot org slash Celtic. OK we're back. I'm Philip Martin sitting in for Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show we're talking about the history of Haiti with historian Laurent Dubois and professor

of education Fabiano said later in the hour we'll be joined by IRA KURTZ The long time attorney for deposed Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide. What's your view. Give us a call. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. You can also e-mail us. Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot o r g. Now some commentators including evangelist Pat Robertson and now basketball player and former ESPN commentator Paul surely placed the burden of history on Haitians themselves. And here's how one TV news anchor introduced a recent story on Haiti two centuries on the island nation of 10 million. It's one of the poorest countries on Earth blasted by history and then terrorist attacks his death squads starvation and a red length series of match. Disaster but nowhere in the litany of ills that the anchors cite French or US occupation should she have listeners were these major

factors in your view. And how Haiti developed or forts under development. And what does this say well about Haiti's present state state of affairs. What does this say about Haiti's I should at. Sad state of affairs. Laura I've heard conservative commentators and some Haitians themselves say so what. That was then now is now let's move on and get over wed get it over with so on and so forth. What's your view. Does it matter that the US is twice occupied Haiti. If so why. Well I think that the key is to try to understand what the situation is in Haiti and how it might improve. And obviously there's no there's no there's plenty of blame to go around in the sense that Haitian politicians and Haitian leaders have failed on a number of levels on a number of ways as have external forces played a role so I think the key in some ways is really the urgency really is understanding how those forces have come together to create such a difficult situation. And that since I don't think it's particularly useful to to say it's all Haitians fault and it's certainly not useful to only look to outsiders as well. I think what's

really important is to understand how the forces from the outside have tended to encourage and sort of actually propel some of the most negative forces on the inside and that's urgent and particular because that's also something that could be possibly changed. The other issue I think is one of understanding the very particular way in which history has created a certain kind of social organization in Haiti a certain kind of state in Haiti a state that in many ways doesn't you know doesn't function like the way that many other states do and it has actually a very limited role in the lives of many Haitians which does not mean that Haitian society is not extremely well organized and in fact in the wake of the earthquake one of the most important things to note is how well organized in many ways people were not by the state but in their own ways in their own communities. So there are all kinds of ways in which Haiti has has has suffered but there's also all these resources and these possibilities that are there. And the question is how to how to sort of move forward with those. Well an institutional question that again reflects on history from a historical perspective. For either you or or Fabiano

Why did we see so much destruction due to the earthquake in Haiti but relatively little in the earthquake in Chile. Well I think that partly has to do with infrastructure issues and we know that in Haiti because as Maha said the state has had a limited role so there aren't building codes and for many many construction projects actually are done in ways that I that we would just not consider safe and certainly not earthquake proof so that there are no the the cement may be watered down or other structural things may not have been accounted for and and even though there is no that there was information for many years to the Haitian state that that Haiti on a fault line. This this wasn't information that was spread throughout. So people didn't necessarily know some people knew but it wasn't it wasn't something that everyone knew. And even though people may have felt tremors for many many years just not knowing the magnitude in the state not interfer not coming in and sort of setting forth certain

standards for construction that would make them earthquake proof. I think this is this is sort of how you see the difference between Haiti and what happened in Chile. I just wanted to go back a little bit to the previous comment because I really heartily agree with Flo Hollars comments about not really hitting once again one against the other or playing a blame game. I also think that there are lessons to be learned about how we can move forward even when there has been a history of such a negative sort of cooperation or a negative relationship between states. So for instance I'm working on it. Book and in writing about it I write about growing up and always hearing this tagline of Haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere as accompanying every description of Haiti that I have ever heard in all of my life. And I say I write you know imagine if every Israeli newspaper that talked about the US qualified the U.S. as the nation that stood idly by a six million Jews were slaughtered by Hitler. Or if every international report on the US included the phrase the US a nation that inflamed Africans for over 200 years now

has you know a basketball you know every every story about Haiti begins with this poorest black nation whether that's relevant or not. At the same time the like and so and Israel something about Jews and the U.S. But now Israel and and the U.S. are our allies and have a have a relationship that's extremely supportive of one another. So I would like to see that for Haiti this is why and what I envision that we can get. Past these things that yes we need to recognize them and we they must be spoken they cannot be silenced we have to talk about those realities. But aren't there but aren't there also aren't there also some some historical truisms that make it difficult to get past that. For example in talking about the earthquake once again when you talk about the central role of government and the fact that government for example did not impose the type of building codes that might you might see in Chile. Doesn't that presuppose that the Haitian government the central government in a in the minds of

many cared less about the the its people or perhaps that it did not play the role that was supposed to play constructively as a central government. What about the historical provenance of that. Where does that come from. Sure well I think it's also important to think about the Haitian state. So I'm like I'm like in many many countries including the US. Haitian ministers people who are in government don't earn salaries that we would consider to be salaries that are equivalent to the role to the responsibility that's assigned to them. So they in the U.S. I don't know for a fact what the salaries are of U.S. senators but I would imagine that they're probably above 20000 30000 dollars. These are the kinds of salaries that Haitian ministers make. And so there is a history of corruption within the state where ministers and other. Factions might place taxes on imports and other kinds of ways of getting money of what would be considered

corruption what we considered stealing. But we have to put that in context as well. We can't just say oh look they're just stealing because they don't care about their people because they don't care about governing. I think that there has been a a corruption and a perversion of what the role of the state is and. And in order to stop that cycle we have a lot of work to do including putting these kinds of jobs in the proper context of not only that they're they're service that you're providing a service to the people but also because of the service that you're providing you're you have a very important job and therefore we're going to compensate you in a way that recognizes that acknowledges this important role that you're playing. I understand that but I think the the question I'm trying to understand again historically is where this does come from you have you have for example when the U.S. occupied Haiti. And I guess there are a lot of ways of under taking this. They maintain fiscal control until 1947 so you had an occupation for

1015 in 1034 the US basically withdrew in 34 but they maintained fiscal control now for some people that might implicitly suggest that the government headed the government basically had its fiscal situation in order. But for other people they might interpret that as having an imposition of corporatism that basically exploited the land type of corporate model that basically exploited the land and perhaps from that lessons were learned perhaps the wrong lessons were learned that perhaps led to to corruption. Can you talk about that I certainly don't want to hypothesize on history but I'm trying to understand where this comes from. You feel if you have a culture if you will that of corruption and other ills in the society. I mean I think here it's really important to think about the structures of accountability in legitimation and empowerment in Haiti. Certainly there is a way in which the Haitian state has not been rendered as accountable to the population as it as it should be right. And in some ways that

has to do some of that goes back to the American occupation and before the American population was quite important because it shifted power in many important ways within Haiti. Before that there was a great deal of dispersed regional power in the sense that there was actually no there was a kind of broad army in which most people served in but there was not a kind of centralized army and most a lot of power was held in polls throughout the country. The US occupation changed a lot of that and in some ways kind of established a much more centralized regime in a centralized government. But the accountability of that government ultimately was in the hands in many ways was supported by the outside force by the United States that controlled the fiscal regime and so forth. And in some ways that's continued to be the case that the question of the Haitian Haitian leaders have been very have been kind of held accountable to outside forces in a way more than they have been held accountable to their own people. Both fiscally and on other levels and that's a kind of serious structural issue that basically is ongoing so in a way the way in which certainly the failures of the government to insist on certain codes are one part of a of a

larger set of set of difficulties. The question is how do we kind of change that and in some ways there have been consistent efforts I mean the U.S. occupation in many ways was actually justified as an attempt to change that. And as an attempt to create a different structure and it failed to do so for a number of reasons. And in a way I think part of the problem and part of the failures have been in a sense a lack of understanding how to build up from Haiti itself and to create a different situation so that the two have played off against each other it is important I think with regards to the earthquake to note that the earthquake in the past hit a capital city a very densely packed capital city where certainly the buildings that fell down where you know often not well constructed vs. a less populated area so there are other reasons for the difference and also a remarkable difference actually what I struck was struck me also difference in terms of the the reaction in the sense that there was actually very little kind of looting or kind of disorder within Haiti itself after the earthquake. And that's kind of interesting in some ways because people tended to expect that that would happen but what you saw instead it was communities kind of working together and in a very different way.

So well but I do think it's vital. Yeah go ahead. Well I was going to say. You can't help but make comparisons and another thing that accords another comparison people make quite often is the comparison between hating a Dominican Republic in terms of their development in terms of if you will one exist as a tourist attraction the other exist again metaphorically as tragedy. Where did this imbalance come from historically between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. And how is that important in our discussion today about Haiti. Well I do think that again is very it's a longer term thing I mean the Dominican Republic was was really never a large scale plantation society it was more of a rural society and it never had the same kind of importance in terms of the European economy than Haiti did. There was much smaller importation of slaves and even the kind of deforestation that's taken place in Haiti began during the plantation period with the construction of plantations and the and the use of wood for fires and so forth. So they have a completely different foundation. And from that a number of

other things have kind of have continued over the years. That relationship is very important is a complicated one for that reason I should say to you that there have been periods in the 20th century there's quite quite a bit of tourism to Haiti actually under the Duvalier regime there is quite a bit of tourism to Haiti. A lot of that actually stopped after Haitians were blamed for having brought AIDS to the United States which was a false accusation of course but so it is a kind of not a permanent and not a permanent situation but kind of an artifact of the last 20 or 30 years that have included both. A number of things but including a lot of political instability. So it's not as if Haiti couldn't serve as a kind of couldn't couldn't greet tourists or wouldn't or won't in the future do so. Of course I should point out the reason that I mentioned Dominican Republic it's good because they occupy the same island. Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Let's talk about some of the current events in Haitian life before the earthquake of course. You've had a lot of instability political instability when people think about

when they think about Haiti quite often they think about two figures and in Haitian life one of course is Francois Deval the heir known as Papa Doc who we'll talk about more. And they also think of course about John Bertrand Aristide who we'll talk about in a few minutes with Ira Kurtz upon Can you bring us to the 1950s when when Papa Doc took over and what his. What his emergence on the in Haiti meant for the Haitian people and how it and the role that the United States played in his in his ascendancy. Sure would you want to take that. There's Yeah absolutely. So Duvalier emerges after a 20 year period between you know what Haitians consider the talk about as a second independence in 1034 when the U.S. left and then his rise in the 1950s It's actually a period that's beautifully explored in a new book by Matthew Smith called red and black in Haiti which really

looks at it in detail. And it's certainly a moment in which the broader context of the Cold War and other you know. Right dif different left movements and he kind of battle for control. And in many ways devalue kind of emerges out of a period of I mean it it's actually you know it's a period of political conflict. It's not the same level of instability as we've had some some other moments in Haitian history but he kind of emerges with a certain kind of promise of sort of of ending some of those conflicts within. And develops a very strong ideology too that he kind of constructs around his own his own power structure and ideology of now while he's mill where he kind of represents the black masses in Haiti against the elite. And he's a very educated person and studied in the United States and had written ethnological articles and so forth so he kind of constructs this regime which of course is Havel it's very supported by the United States and in particular in the context after the Cuban Revolution when he serves a very important role for the U.S. as a kind of counter counterpoint to Cuba. So there's very strong support for

the dictatorship in Haiti in the United States for several decades which obviously plays a key role in in its its existence there so that that's an important thing to recall and far beyond you. You have family in Haiti. You have I think you grew up in Haiti if I'm not mistaken. I did. And you were you ever if you will victimize or did you did you feel the terror if you will of the devoutly heirs not only of Francoise Dr. Aleo but of his of his son as well. Right. Actually it's an interesting question. So I did grow up pretty much under. Junk loads presidency. I migrated to the US in 1084 I was 10 years old and growing up I certainly remember hearing that you couldn't say bad things about the president especially if you were walking around. My family my grandmother lived in the shelled mouse which was not far from the palace and I remember hearing you can if you're walking around the palace or you're walking on the mouse

that you can't say bad things about the president because they have microphones in the lobby listening to you. But I also have to say that as a child I grew up with it in a very very idyllic childhood I had. I was very privileged as a child growing up in a family that was probably intents and purposes middle class. My uncle I was great raised by a great aunt and uncle and my uncle was a minister in the Ministry of Finance. So I grew up very privileged protected childhood at the same time having sort of this sense that things are not quite right but as a as a child and I think it is really important to remember that Haitian lives in spite of all the stories the political analyses and all these sort of thing there are people who are just have OK we live. Let's let's let's let's pick up with let's put this topic up again right after this break. We're going to talk about the history of Haiti. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Skinner auctioning fine American

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right up to A Prairie Home Companion at six. It's the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Hi I'm Ryan O'Donovan and this Saturday March 20th I'll be hosting the fifth annual presentation of a St. Patrick's Day. That's theater at Harvard University. Frankie Gavin and Dave Donnan join and I hope you will sign up for the show with a contribution of one hundred twenty dollars and you'll receive two complimentary tickets to the show. All the details are online at the dot org slash Celtic this is eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with FRESH AIR and the callee Crossley Show the new eighty nine point seven. Welcome back. We're talking the history of Haiti with historian Laurent Bois and

professor of education said Joining us now is Ira Kurzban long time attorney for deposed Haitian President Aristide. Before we turn to Ira let's talk for a second with of beyond you were talking about your childhood under the right. And so I remember watching television for example some plug man got married to Michelle and she was so beautiful and I remember seeing images of them feeding poor children and thinking to myself that these were wonderful people. It wasn't until I became an adolescent and started reading about Haiti's history about read about the divide. Gays in particular obviously studied history in school but reading about the devalues and their rule that that suddenly many things became clear sort of like putting it in the side like well all of us we grew up and then we remember our childhood and suddenly certain things go aha that's what that conversation was about her aha that's what that look was about. So certainly

having an uncle being raised by someone who was working in the state there were many tensions and I and I sort of had these harkening of these things but what I was starting to say before the break was just that I also just had a really normal happy childhood and it's important to remember at the same time they're sort of like this tension always that yes there are these historical things that are happening and there there is misery and poverty and but there are there are also kids who play and families who you know celebrate marriages and births and deaths and so forth and so there's always this tension between just the daily lives of folks even folks who are very poor still living lives that are that are very honorable and dignified and also remembering that there that there are these state. Going on that that impacts those daily lives I think sadly though when you think about the Deval years I think the images that come to mind for me it certainly is I think about

their dreaded force called the Tonton Macoutes. They use voodoo a religion of course in in Haiti and elsewhere to try to mobilize this this this group and they mobilize this group against the people and they killed hundreds of thousands of people and I think we have to keep that in mind when we talk about the Deval years. And I think that this is of course what led to finally lead to a democratically elected government in 1900 that of our stede state. But in 19 in 2004 for the second time he was forced to flee Haiti in late February of that year he fled to South Africa landing first in the Central African Republic where he spoke with me. I was at NPR at the time. He spoke with me by satellite phone. I'm going to play some of that but warning the line here is not at all clear. Were you actually forced at gunpoint to leave Haiti or escorted out of the country by U.S. troops.

As stated by the State Department. I know because the sound here is so terrible I'm going to just tell you what every state said to me at the time. He basically said that he had been overthrow in a coup de ta those. That was his word coup d'etat. Now that was a charge vehemently denied by then Secretary of State Colin Powell. We made arrangements for his departure. He was he wrote a letter of resignation I think you might have been in touch with other people and leased plane was brought in and he departed at 6:15 thereabouts on Sunday morning. He was not kidnapped. We did not force him out of the airplane. He went on the airplane willingly. And that's the truth. And it would have been better for members of Congress who have heard the story. I used to ask us about the stories before going public with them so that we don't make a difficult situation

that much more difficult. Now we have Iraq Kurds ban on the Kurds ban rather on the line. Now IRA's the longtime attorney for for IRA steed. Let's get from your point of view what exactly happened. Well I think it's pretty clear that there was a coup on February 29. If you put all the pieces together I mean even the most simple ones for example that Dick Cheney was the secretary of defense during the first coup against President Aristide the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time was Collin Powell and George Bush Sr. was the president. So the second time around we have Cheney is the vice president really running the operation. Colin Powell is the secretary of state and of course George W. Bush's press. Wouldn't it be. The reality is if you see how the whole crew played out to really understand this you have to

understand what happened in the 2000 election and he because this wasn't just a coup against the return air speed it was a coup against the law of the last party and against the popular movements and he and the way that that occurred is that in 2000 there was an election in Haiti for virtually every office in the country. The OAS said that election was a full fair election and in that election the lav lost party won 90 percent of all of the seats in Haiti and I mean 90 percent of all the mayors 90 percent of all what we would consider governors 90 percent of the the parliament. And the process of destabilizing the government began at that point and by the way it began at the end of the Clinton administration and then was carried forward during. The Bush administration. So the coup really began in full force in the Bush administration when they withdrew all monies from the Haitian government from the time jumper Tran Aristide became president in February of 2000 and

one United States official policy was even though they had given hundreds of millions of dollars to the Duvalier days to the generals after the Duvalier days. They determined that Haiti wasn't democratic enough and withdrew all aid from the Haitian government began giving money to NGOs whose primary responsibility during that period of time from February 2001 to February 2004 was to de-stabilize the Haitian government and they were very very successful at it there was a lot of dis information. The United States for example gave millions of dollars to vision to mail a private radio station owned by elite families in Haiti so that they could broadcast all through the country and I think you know one of things we have to ask is Why is our government spending millions of dollars giving money to millionaires to run their own radio station in the obvious answer was to help to destabilize the government during that four year period.

Well let me let me turn to Morag for just a second as a historian do you see it the same way that the IRA describes the this historical event. Well I mean unfortunately as a historian it's hard to know. I mean in some ways it'll probably take a long time for us to get all the full full picture on all these things. But certainly there was there's a lot going on in terms of destabilization and just the broad broadly the larger policies of the United States towards Aristide which contributed to the to the whole the whole series of events so it's sometimes really hard to know how to how to parcel out there so many different stories and so many different perspectives on it. But there's no doubt I think that in in a broader sense the kind of policies of the international community and the United States really really profoundly weakened what was a moment in which you know real change was possible in Haiti at the time so you know there's a kind of extremely unfortunate. Thing were some of the some of the destabilisation However hastened Steve himself I mean the the former president has been blamed for of

course helping recruit large numbers of youth who who went through the various townships on his behalf. He was accused of using them to keep him in power. Often times they committed violence. So on and so forth. What's your view of that phobia. Well I only heard the stories of me through the same lenses that you did through the U.S. media lenses. So I really don't feel like I can speak with any authority about it. I certainly don't feel like I know the facts of the situation. But I but I also do think that it was an unfortunate turn of events and I was very disappointed and I'm sure most Haitians were very disappointed to see that the things that what we had hoped for in terms of a new a new democracy and that the people had spoken and that they had spoken for their leader and their leader was taking over you know. Just to hear the stories about what was happening was very disheartening.

Well it seems pretty amazing that in light of our steeds prominence that he's sitting in South Africa right now that he has not played to my knowledge a role in the post earthquake situation. Though I know that some Haitian citizens have called for the return of air a steed. How is that playing out. Well I think the president certainly wants to go back to Haiti. There's no doubt about it he made a statement at the airport a couple of weeks ago saying right after the earthquake in probably around January 15th I think made a very clear statement that he would like to go back to Haiti. Unfortunately the U.S. government you know which has a substantial military presence in Haiti the United Nations which has a substantial military presence in Haiti has not seen fit to understand that it would be of

great benefit to Haiti and the Haitian government if anyone who is willing to come back to help can do that. You know they've always had this bizarre idea that Arab state is extremely unpopular in Haiti but we need him halfway around the world because if he were any closer somehow that would be upsetting if he was really that unpopular Haiti. Why do we insist on keeping him in South Africa halfway around the world. The reality is he could come back. He could play a major constructive role in helping the Haitian people in helping the Haitian government because the only way that. The Haitian people are going to get out of the situation they are in as if they really work together at a grassroots level to help themselves. I mean there's going to be foreign assistance but if that foreign assistance isn't given to the Haitian people the way we typically give foreign assistance we give it to you know how at the Halliburton's and the other companies and a small amount dribbles

down to the people here. You need to motivate the Haitian people to go out to help themselves to organize and Arab street is a great motivator I think their city could certainly help in rebuilding the country. I think what he's waiting for is will the United States government will the Department of State will the United Nations and will the Haitian government invite him to come back. Well in the in the few minutes that we have remaining I would throw this question again out to our listeners should air a steed return and if he returns what does that mean for Haiti Now. History is in many ways like religion. No one quite agrees on the same points and principles it seems and one. One thing about history is I'm wondering if if if it viewed in terms of every steed in the Deval years is there a consensus on exactly what happened in terms of the transition from the Deval year period to Aristide to the Rene

Preval period to what we have now in Haiti which is a question mark. Where does Haiti go from here and how will history inform that. Well I think that confused me IRA's point about the people really taking the lead is exactly right. And whoever can do that whoever can galvanize the energy of the people to take their future into their own hands is absolutely crucial and so those are the kind of leaders that we need and those kinds of movements are important when they happen locally. And this is something that I'm actually working on with a team of folks. We're working to develop a Haitian National Service Corps that we're calling Haiti Corps. And it would actually have three primary strength to begin with. One strand that would be to help patients who are in Haiti who have skills education and training to get positions in these NGOs that where money is pouring in right now. And the typical. The typical scenario is that jobs get posted

on a website like relief Web and then people who live abroad take those jobs come in and make large salaries when in fact those salaries could be given to people in Haiti there are plenty of Ph.D.s doctors engineers construction workers skilled carpenters in Haiti who could be doing the work of reconstruction. And this is something that we feel really passionate about but this needs to be a right based approach that is locally led and locally driven. So that's one strand another strand is to bring international help from diaspora as well as from friends of Haiti who want to come and do terms of service whether those be long term or short term or very specific professional development and assistance and support to Haitian projects. And the ultimate goal would be then to have a third strand that I think this is really where the future of Haiti is is in the people who are young people who need education skills and training. And we would hopefully place them with partners who are

willing to take an entry level person and you know have them serve and a term for a certain period of time and then after serving a term of stay at one or two years in Haiti core they would then have some money saved up that they could pursue education. They might want to start up. Small business and whatever the case may be. But this is how we envision that the people would be in charge and that we would be empowering the people through through the lens of service. And this this and this and what you what I think is very Haitian and what's in what you've described as it is a positive step forward and I think that's what people need right now certainly is they need to understand how this is going to play out in ways that are going to enhance help assist the Haitians. Laurent Dubois what about yourself. Can you please point to a historical lesson that might or that might suggest a of a very positive future for Haitians and in the brief moments that we have.

Yeah I think we just need to remember how incredible the movements that have made Haiti have been in the past this is a country that overthrew slavery the movement that overthrew Duvalier. I mean there's an incredible democratic tradition in Haiti this is just an incredible set of resources and an incredible population people you know. Jaded looking for education. There's an enormous hope and possibility there. I think we need to carefully analyze what's gone wrong and how outsiders have Haven't fact in many ways sort of made made things worse within Haiti and we need to really do I think what exactly what what what Obama's talking about which is to really invest in in Haiti itself in the people of Haiti himself who are completely of course ready and able to reconstruct the country and maybe this will be a time to to rethink certain things and construct things differently and just along the lines we were discussing so. You know and people need to mobilize to support that kind of kind of future. OK. Well look that's going to wrap it up for us. I'm full of Martin and I'm sitting in for Kelly Crossley. I should be back tomorrow by the way. We've been talking about Haiti and its history

with Miranda Bois Fabi on da set and Ira Kurtz man was a professor of history romance Studies at Duke and author of Avengers of the new world the story of the Haitian revolution Fabiano said as a professor of education at New York University. Ira Kurtz ban is the longtime attorney for deposed Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Thank you all for joining us. We're going out on why Cliff John song president. This is a calla Crossley Show. Today's program was engineered by Jane pick. And produced by Chelsea Mertz our production assistant is an up white knuckle B. We are a production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station for news and culture. Coming back it's time for the school.