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From WGBH in Boston this is the Emily Rooney show. Combat troops leave Iraq. Iraqi security forces and their capability continues to grow. U.S. military officials say Iraqi police and military will be able to keep the country secure. We have the latest Blue Cross Blue Shield says he's committed to containing health care costs joins us journalist fired after publicly protesting an Emmy award two years later the issue is getting renewed attention. And finally according to Tom Prince the teenager who committed suicide after being bullied was herself a bully. She joins us after the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying the U.S. military's

last official combat brigade in Iraq is heading home. Troops from the 4th Stryker Brigade 2nd Infantry Division cheered as they began crossing the border into Kuwait before dawn. NPR's Mike Schuster says while combat operations in Iraq are scheduled to end August 30 first some 50000 troops will remain to focus more on training the troops that remain will be combat ready they'll be armed. They will go out on patrol with Iraqi troops they'll train them and assist them and they could very well be and gauged in combat over the next year and Americans shouldn't be surprised if there are combat deaths over the next year among that much smaller but still significant deployment of American troops here in Iraq. NPR's Mike Shuster in Baghdad. Marine Reserve Captain Peter Brooks served two tours in Iraq. He spoke to NPR's MORNING EDITION about the next phase for that country. I think now that the problems Iraq faces are largely in the diplomatic and civilian realm. I think the role for an 18 to 22 year old with a rifle walking down the street

has kind of gone away. And that's that's a wonderful milestone served in Iraq between 2007 and 2009. A growing number of Americans believe in correctly that President Obama is a Muslim. As NPR's Scott Horsley reports a new poll also finds fewer Americans think the president is a Christian. The survey by the Pew Research Center found only about one in three Americans believe President Obama's professed faith as a Christian. That's down from about half who believe that when he first came into office. Meanwhile almost one in five Americans have come to believe falsely that Mr. Obama is a Muslim. If you President Andrew Kohut says most of those people who disapprove of the president. It's part of I think of a mind set. People who are personally critical of all of Obama's saying well you know he's not like us. Forty three percent of those polled say they don't know what the president's religion is. The survey was conducted before Mr. Obama weighed in on controversial plans for a mosque near Ground

Zero in New York. Scott Horsley NPR News Washington. Companies are cutting jobs again as economic recovery slows. The Labor Department found that last week new applications for unemployment insurance rose by 12000 to reach the half million mark for the first time since November. David Wise chief economist at Standard and Poor's says it's a sign of more trouble ahead. We're clearly seeing a deterioration in the labor market after a promising start to the year. We're now back to where we were last November in terms of new layoffs. The less volatile four week average rose by 8000 to just over four hundred eighty two thousand the highest since December. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down 177 points at ten thousand two hundred thirty eight. This is NPR. South Africa has put its defense forces on alert amid a worsening strike by the nation's public employees. More on this from Vicky O'Hara in Johannesburg.

Unions representing over a million employees have joined a massive strike for higher wages. They represent teachers health care workers customs officials and court employees. This is only day two but already police had to be called out when striking employees tried to shut down the M1. A major Johannesburg expressway police also responded with water cannon and rubber bullets when striking employees tried to enter a Johannesburg hospital to confront their colleagues. Medical care is one of the most urgent problems striking workers have blocked patients trying to get in to clinics for treatment. Some of them require daily medications for HIV AIDS or TB treatments that cannot be interrupted. For NPR News I'm Vicki O'Hara in Johannesburg. Russia Today marks the 50th anniversary of the space flight of Belka and more on this from Peter Van Dyke Bowker instructor were accompanied on their landmark voyage by two rats and 40 mice. But it was the two mongrels who became celebrities after the mission. They are now on permanent display in

Moscow's astronautics museum. And with the stars of an animated movie earlier this year before Beltran struck another space dog did go into orbit. But like his mission never included plans to return her to earth. Twenty eight of the mice who blasted off with Beltran Straka died but the dogs were declared healthy and the mission paved the way for Yuri Gagarin's historic flight a year later. Straka went on to have a litter of six puppies. One pushed into was given to President Kennedy as a gift in 1961. For NPR News I'm Peter Van Dyck in Moscow. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from the Public Welfare Foundation supporting coverage of workers issues more information at public welfare. Ward it's live and it's local. Coming up next two hours of local talk the Emily Rooney show and the Kelly Crossley Show. Only on WGBH. Good afternoon you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. The United States military

presence in Iraq is drawing down. You know I think right now actually there's a sort of a quiet pride in knowing that. We we accomplished our mission. I think no one really expected that we'd be. You know on the deck of some ship signing up for a peace treaty with the Sullivan Law and I think most people realize that. The Iraq war and counterinsurgency in general is one in a kind of slow and gradual process. And that fading away is sort of the best outcome. That it feels good that is Reserve Captain Peter Brooks speaking about the withdraw the military presence in Iraq which is on target as the Obama administration has promised that by the end of August the ground troops will be limited to 50000. On the other hand everybody virtually everybody agrees that the elimination of all troops by the end of 2011 will be far more difficult to meet. They're putting together a civilian task force has to be buttressed by the State Department and private security contractors. It is a daunting mission and something that my next guest knows

a lot about former Ambassador James Dobbins who's served as special envoy in Afghanistan Bosnia Haiti Kosovo and Somalia. He joins me now from the at the RAND Corporation which is based in Washington D.C. Welcome Ambassador. Thank you. I think the thing that has everybody concerned and it's been the concern in Iraq all along that protecting the civilians in the country that we're in a place is still you know so wildly you know diverse with various factions of terrorists whether it's al Qaeda or others. Are these going to be armed civilians the State Department is talking about doubling its private security guards. Clearly they will be but what about all the people in these in these strongholds set up in Baghdad that are set up by the State Department or the armed What is it. No I don't think they'll normally be armed I suppose if if they wanted to carry or

could have access to a sidearm. They would be given permission but I think most of the diplomats and experts who will be working in these facilities will not normally be armed. I guess that goes to my question how do we protect the civilians there. Well I think as you indicated they're talking a have about having up to 7000 security personnel guards. Both non-static facilities and convoys the number of helicopters even fixed wing aircraft. So and of course the American diplomats are currently protected largely by contractors and indeed contractors even guard many of our military bases there so. So this is not new. It is the scale as it will will be much larger because you won't have the American military to fall back on for security. And I think there's a serious question as to whether Congress is prepared to fund something on

this level. Congress has always proved much more willing to fund the Defense Department and the State Department even if it's for exactly the same thing. That's a good point because this is not going to be a cheap effort either. And when it comes down to it what is it preferential to have a private security guard force in there. What is the difference between having U.S. military I mean it almost seems some man six who we have either a U.S. military presence or you have these private security forces which are also of a form of the army. Well I mean the State Department facilities around the world are routinely guarded by foreign security forces contract forces there usually are a small team of Marines U.S. Marines who are in the embassy itself but the perimeter is almost always guarded by contract security forces so that the so in principle it's not new it's the scale of it that's so much larger you know in an average embassy you're

talking about 20 30 maybe a hundred such people. You're talking here about 7000. So it's clearly on. It's not the principal It's different it's the scale that's different it in a country in which you have a large number of U.S. troops you in effect have a reserve you only need so many the troops don't guard the embassy but they're available if the embassy guards become overwhelmed. You no longer have that fallback position if you will and therefore you have to have a much more robust security force. Committed to the mission. And as I said this is not unprecedented in principle but it is unprecedented in scale. Now I mean reports out of Iraq are that the number of violent incidents are significantly down but what about the general competence of the Iraqi security forces which we've been training all these years.

Is that up to the Iraqi security forces have shown the capability of operating independently in taking over U.S. missions although U.S. combat forces are leaving the country only now. They've in effect been what they call overwatch which is essentially in reserve for the last year and have not been patrolling and doing the other more aggressive activities that one that was characteristic of their role from 2003 to 2000 and they say. So the Iraqis have been in the lead throughout the country over the past year. I think the real question is not the competency of the Iraqi police an army which is adequate. It's the political oversight it's whether those institutions can hold together. If if they're not embedded within a larger political structure and it remains cohesive if the if if the government begins

to fragment if loyalties begin to begin to fragment if people again don't see a central authority that has respect and and capability you know then those in those institutions the army and the police are likely to fragment as well. Talking to Ambassador James Dobbins who served as a special envoy in Afghanistan Bosnia Kosovo to name a few. Well you yourself have have said that the the mission itself remains controversial and it depends on what happens in Iraq in the next generation but whether this mission in itself was justified. When will we ever be able to determine that. I think you know in the light of history a generation from now we can will be in a better position to determine whether or not the American intervention on balance produced desirable or undesirable results.

Whether or not it was it was a wise thing to do and justified it in light of the circumstances that prevailed in 2003 I think will probably remain debatable. Pretty much forever. It's clear that the rationales offered for the intervention that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was and was giving sanctuary to international terrorists both proved proved to be wrong. And so certainly on the grounds originally offered to the invasion proved to be unnecessary. On the other hand it was a horribly brutal dictatorship which was brought to an end although at a very significant cost. And and so in the light of history although everyone will I think come to the view that the original rationale for it was deeply flawed.

It may or may not have proved to produce desirable outcomes and I think it's just too late to come to a definitive judgment. In 2006 one would have said that the outcomes were clearly undesirable the country had descended into civil war and it was. And for most people it was much worse than living under Saddam. I don't think one can say that today and I don't think one can quite predict with certainty what it will be like in two or three years. That's right because you can't really say now with any kind of certainty whether the mission was accomplished even though the current mission under way to withdraw United States military forces and to put Iraqi security forces and private security contractors in place that mission is on target. But if if something happens if there is a recurrence of the you know the really dreadful instability would we go back in. I think that would pose a very difficult challenge for for the president. He

clearly desperately hopes he won't be faced with that choice. And I think there's some chance that he won't be. I mean with roaring combat forces and reducing our presence to the level that we're currently going to a 50000 is it's clearly a calculated risk in the absence of an Iraqi government and continued uncertainty about when they'll be able to form a government. It's a calculated risk that makes some sense we've got a lot of other calls for our troops we're embedded in even more challenging situation in Afghanistan. And we've been over committed for a long time. But there's a risk and it's important to acknowledge that there is a risk attached to this. Also we were talking a few minutes ago about the cost mean and you said whether Congress is going to fund this I mean some of the. Technical support that's going to be necessary in the State Department is planning on acquiring these you know mine resistant ambush protected vehicles these things called em are 80s

the Getaway I'm from the government just from the Pentagon rather. Just to move people around within the country so this is not going to be something where people are just you know flying around in open jeeps and this is going to be a very costly effort for the next years who knows how long. I think that's right I haven't seen dollar signs attached to it it's going to be much much cheaper than than the current military effort. But yeah I would just guess from the numbers associated that it will cost less than one tenth of what the current military effort costs on an annual basis. But even that will be staggeringly large in terms of the State Department's budget. These numbers get lost in the larger Defense Department budget and 7000 people would not be a major consideration and determining the size of the State Department's budget. It's sort of transparence budget. But the State Department doesn't have 7000 foreign service officers. And so that number is

is is is it will be a very large proportion of state budget. Congress has been often reluctant to fully fund that budget. We shall see what happens there will that's. Tense and fascinating time thank you so much for joining us former later. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it. All right. We're going to take a short break. When we continue the newly appointed president and CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Ace ticket. With tickets to sports concerts and theater events nationwide ace ticket can help you find tickets to Red Sox Patriots Celtics and Bruins games and many other venues. 1 800 my seats or

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I'd First say hello to a television personality and a contributor to CBS Sunday Morning Mr. Mo. This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm David Bianculli sitting in for Terry Gross. Welcome back to Bob Woodward's weekend. My guest is one woman band. Teresa Anderson spent time with your public radio. All weekend long here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH radio. I'm Khalil Crossley. Coming up. The Calla Crossley Show the 10th Congressional District race the booming business scrapping metal and more today had one after the image show one eighty nine point seven. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show after a nation wide search. The new CEO of BlueCross BlueShield comes from within the company. Fifty one year old Andrew Dreyfus of Newton takes over September 7th and says his main priority is to rein in the costs of healthcare and to stem the losses for Blue Cross Blue

Shield which he says are the result of quote in adequate premiums to the state cap on increases for small businesses and individuals. And joining me now by telephone is Andrew Dreyfus welcome. Thanks Emily. Good to be with you. Good idea to get out there early. You know it's. Yeah. I have to say the person has struck me in your quote in The Boston Globe this morning was this thing inadequate premiums that took my breath away thinking. I don't I've said this to your predecessors everybody within BlueCross BlueShield. I mean I find it mind numbing impossible that your company can be losing money you know because premiums have been going up. Yes exactly. Yeah. Well and I know that another reason does everybody turn does everybody use their health insurance I mean is like it seem to you that most people never cash in on their health insurance policy. A lot. But let me just start by saying that it is true that affordability is the single most important issue not just for us as an organization but for businesses for individuals and families and they all feel this incredible

burden. Rising health care premiums inadequate premiums just really refers to what happened with all business in this you know brief period of time when the the governor's administration put a cap on rates. We certainly take no pleasure or pride in sending out premium increases of 8 10 12 percent we think they should be a lot lower. But what's driving premium increases is as you suggest the spending on medical care and 90 cents on every dollar that we take in premiums go right back out to pay physicians and hospitals and labs and pharmacies for the care of our members and that's where we really have to roll up our sleeves and work with others including hospitals and doctors to try to lower the rate of growth. I'm just trying to get at this because you said that in the paper he said the Blue Cross Blue Shield lost about fourteen point three million in the second quarter due largely to this cap on the increase for small businesses in individuals but the increase in everybody

else was. I mean I know there are some limitations based on you know company policies and all that but the real money comes from everybody else. Yeah well it comes from a whole variety of different customers we have we have more than 350000 small business customers and those are the ones that were affected by this state imposed cap. And most of the losses we incurred were on those on those customers. But you're right. We certainly offer insurance to large businesses individuals to seniors to others and they're all feeling this this increase but you know in some ways our our company and our business is fairly simple. We charge premiums to our customers we take that money and and then we keep it a tiny amount for ourselves and we spend spend the rest on care and of the amount we spend on care is more than we take in. We're going to lose money if we get the exact What is exact same amount will break even if it's a little bit less will make a tiny surplus and that's what we aim to do tied into

Dreyfus the newly appointed CEO a Blue Cross Blue Shield in Massachusetts. And you explain a little bit more about this alternative quality contract this global payment system where providers pay fixed amounts based on an. Estimated annual cost of a patient's care you say about a third of the 1.2 million BlueCross BlueShield people right now are covered by that contract has to work. Yeah well this is a new arrangement we have with almost a dozen physician practice large physician practices hospitals in Massachusetts. And to explain the let me just step back and remind you and your listeners how the current system works so for 50 years we've had what we called fee for service system. So every time a patient goes to the doctor for a visit or a test or procedure or is admitted to the hospital we pay an amount negotiated with them a certain fee. It's called the fee for service system.

And what it does it really in the patient I should say pays a co-pay or something they pay a co-pay and that's been going up over the years and we know that's an issue for many consumers as well. And the problem with that system is that it rewards more care and more intense care but it doesn't necessarily reward the quality of care. So for example every time you have a physician visit every time you go the hospital we pay again and again and again in the more intensive an intervention all the more we pay. So what we've done instead is work very collaborative Lee with a group of physicians and hospitals and let's try a different approach. Let's try guaranteeing you a fixed amount per patient per year. And on top of that let's give you some special bonuses when you perform on mutually agreed upon quality measures. And it's a system which they like. It liberates them from having to just charge just based on the service. It allows them to do some more creative things by by working with their patients through e-mail phone visits. It focuses the more in prevention so

they want to get to their especially the chronically ill patients early try to keep them out of the office and out of the hospital. Right now we're in a situation where if a large physician practice that. Has blue cross member is successful in managing let's say a patient with diabetes or heart failure such that they're not admitted to the hospital. That practice gets less money and if they're not if they don't intervene early and they met the patient the hospital they get more money. Even backwards to us and I think it turns back by that these musicians you just struck on something how how do you set this annual cost of each patient everybody's an individual some you know have diabetes somebody may have something even worse like you know terminal cancer somebody may have nothing. How do you determine that that's a good question Emily and it goes to the heart of what we're trying to do is that what we do is we start by looking at what kind of spending we had on that patient in the previous year and we put a special adjustment in there depending on how sick they are it's in the ice in the lingo it's called a health

status adjustment. So we will pay a lot more for an older patient who have multiple chronic illnesses than we would for young healthy patients and the physicians in the hospitals trust it because we look at with them how much of this pain. Didn't cost us last year and so the end that way the system is very fair and we put some special protections in so for example of one patient needs a heart transplant or something very high cost that we take that outside of the agreement in most cases and and the practices that operate in the system are really excited for example on Auburn Hospital its physicians are doing this. The all of them all of them. So it's up to the As is I was going to miss my man next question who gets to decide. Can I say to GBH that I think Blue Cross bullshit hey I want to get in on that alternative quality care contract. Well that up to the company. Yeah I know it. Well no it's actually up to the physician. And we have some more work to do Emily here a Blue Cross to help our members understand which

physicians are in the syringe and which aren't. But right now if you're a blue cross member for example and you're your primary care physician is for example in the Mount Auburn group you're in this agreement or if you're a patient of for example Harvard Vanguard the interest group. They're also in this arrangement and but in some ways you know we don't want as ition choose who we don't want our members to feel like they're getting any different care or they may be actually getting some better care because it's going to be more prevention focused so they know they know you saying that they're in a state they may not know initially but we're doing some We're doing some more education of them because the other thing is that what we've learned over time is that you know the current system really does not take patient preferences and patient and patient involvement much into account and we think actually if patients are more actively engaged in the care we actually tend to get better results there's actually some good literature on this. But for example if patients are actually engaged in the care they tend to take their medication more regularly they tend to

follow up with their physicians on the other hand the physician practices in the hospitals now have a great incentive to follow up with the patients a good example is you know today many patients who are discharged from the hospital end up being re-admitted. You know within a week or two because they haven't had sufficient follow up care under these new arrangements we have the hospitals are really working hard to make sure that the patient leaves to understand what medications they're Do they know when their follow up appointment is with their doctor. Someone may be going to the home of visiting nurse to take care of them when they need it. And so it's it really changes the whole focus on trying to keep patients healthy and and. Trying to cure the hospital you know unless it's absolutely necessary. Talking to Andrew Dreyfus the newly appointed CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield You mentioned a minute ago in through the technology of being able to communicate more than most people have no relationship with their doctors at all unless you're again have a chronic situation or you know you see your doctor once a year or whatever it is but communicating by email

or other and being able to you know just some stuff we were looking at this week even with you know this 4G network you can drive testing you know your own blood and sending it back and forth and you know iPhone apps and all this kind of stuff. I mean I suppose that's that's terrific for people who are literate in the top right of the world but what happens especially the aging population who many of whom are not at all. Certainly my children are going to over time their very differently than my parents and my son wants to do everything online and I think my parents would rather get their care one on one in the office with their physician in a traditional way although I think they too would like the convenience of being able to call up their physician and if they have just a quick question not have to go into the office in order to get an answer. And so I think we have to be flexible and understand that a patient needs a very different and patient access to technology is very different. But clearly we're moving in a direction where people are going to want to have a

different kind of communication I recently figured out that with my physician I could refill a prescription just by a few clicks online didn't have to call the office really make the request. I want to be able to do that. It went automatically for the pharmacy. It was great and it was so much I could do it whenever I want which for me was 10 or 11 o'clock at night. This is an open access. It has to start up yeah. I also think that we want to encourage the practices themselves to be more flexible and one of the big back to Why is healthcare so expensive one of the big reasons is because people end up often in the emergency room for care that could be provided more conveniently and in say for a lot of family in an office over the phone or over the weekend hours and evening hours. Nurse practitioners there's a whole lots of you know Minute Clinics NCVS as there are different ways which care can be delivered that will be actually more convenient to patients in some cases more safer and more effective and obviously I don't want to give anyone the impression that we don't want people who are really ill to be in the hospital or get the

kind of care they need. But there's a lot of the care that could be very you know I've seen it. Yeah all right. I urge you to stay out there keep your name you know public and in the news because this is important stuff and we like hearing about it. OK I'll do that Emily. Andrew Dreyfus newly appointed CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield right when we continue. There is no one fired two years ago from Comcast. A fresh look at the story raises interesting issues. It's been more than two years since Barry No one was let go from CNN ate the local station run by Comcast Barry hosted the show Backstage With Barry Nolan. Barry was a stand simply fired for first complaining then protesting that a prestigious

Emmy Award was about to be bestowed on Fox News Cable yakker Bill O'Reilly. No one felt O'Reilly inflated and mangled the truth. Now though the truth of what happened to Nolan is detailed in a new piece by one time television critic Terry not appearing in Columbia Journalism Review Online. And Barry Nolan joins me by telephone from Washington D.C. Welcome Barry. Hey it's good to talk to you. Good to hear from you again to carry on as you know we've covered this story first when it happened and we're back at it I thought Tere Naam did an excellent job going back over the details of this thing. And basically what she's saying is that your former company which is Comcast was kind of intimidated if not really just downright shut shouted down by Fox News by Fox News Channel and was threatened that if they didn't get rid rid of you they might do something financial to them. Well I remember when we did an interview shortly after this happened you

asked I think several times well why did they fire you. So what was the real reason Barry. Yeah. So now as part of this lawsuit you have that discovery phase where you have to trade documents back and forth and these documents came forward that include a letter from Bill O'Reilly to the president. Comcast and I think the reason Terry not would be interested in doing the story now and the only reason it has any importance at all is that Comcast is trying to buy NBC right now and if Comcast is willing the thing that they were mad about was I said demonstrably true thing in a room full of news people on a night when I was nominated for an Emmy for commentary. And if Comcast is so afraid of the corporate interests of FOX or O'Reilly that they will canned somebody for saying true

thing in a way that was not disruptive. You just go bad over day. Just go back a restart and say the letter from Bill O'Reilly to your boss is a Comcast What did it say. It said I was very distant basically. He was really upset that this guy no one attacked him. He doesn't say that I said anything untrue because I didn't and O'Reilly is a man who makes his living every day attacking people. That's what he does for a living and how he makes a lot of money. He attacks people that his audience doesn't like. Actually we have an example of some of the things that set you off here is a couple things that are Riley said a few years ago. I just wish Katrina had only hit the United Nations building. Nothing else had flooded them out and I would have rescued them. It is almost unbelievable what we Santiago up our very schedule the promotion for gays on the same day the team gave away hats to kids so thousands of gay adults showed up and commingle with straight families.

Well that's just that's one of the sort of tamer examples except for maybe that he says it would not have rescued the people inside the United Nations building right. He also at one point about San Francisco that if you were president he wouldn't defend the San Francisco if it were attacked because they were against military recruitment because of their don't ask don't. Tell policy he said one and this is on the document I handed out that dissent. That's fine but undermining. You're a traitor. They should send federal authorities over to Air America and take those people away and change. And this is a man that an organization that primarily represents news producing organizations was giving an award of honor. Yeah the governor's award I believe governor's award not an Emmy an award of honor and distinction. All right so what happened. I think it's fine to have him talk to have him you know come and get a very shaken dinner and yet like you know the speaker band should be honored.

Is is wrong and then to fire somebody for saying something true about that suggests that of Comcast control NBC and Brian Williams and MSNBC and Keith Olbermann and CNBC and tele Mundo. This does not bode well. But I think what was what was Comcast afraid of what were they afraid of from Fox not NBC what what were they afraid. O'REILLY And Roger Ailes and those guys could do to them. Your guess is as good as mine because I don't it doesn't make sense that Fox would say oh Comcast can't carry it. Yeah. So I really I think it was just the saying true things about how bad he was didn't work with their business plan. But I mean even at the time as Terry now points out in our article Comcast vice president engineering this guy Ken. But hello again you know and he said well he said I agree with you. You know that he said you said that while Riley is a well-known TV

personality has a large following. You know he he mangles the truth and I think the vice president of Comcast that that Nate is giving him this award will hurt the integrity of the organization I don't know if he did or not. Well that's what he is. Well that's and that's what the vice president of Comcast and the former president made of that in this e-mail that sent to me you know I asked you at the time know Barry I mean did you feel like things were winding down at CNET as we now. Now in hindsight we know they were going to cancel all the local shows there. Were they using this as a way to get rid of you early before your contract was up. That wasn't something that showed up in the discovery thing so I'd only be speculating about that. But the thing that was really the trigger was O'Reilly and I think let me point out that one of the other things that I mentioned in my letters to native This was not a Comcast with a name. Oh

I know him. Then I drew their attention to a study that was taken during the Iraq war that found that. There were a surprising alarming number of people that held demonstrably false beliefs about the events surrounding the war and they wanted to know what leads but that are these people that don't pay much attention to the news or the people that don't watch the news and they found that the correlation between holding false beliefs was significant given what you stated as your primary source of news and that people that watched Fox moved what they said was their primary source of information. Were four times more likely to hold demonstrably false beliefs than people that watch or listen to NPR and PBS. As interesting and as you know right now News Corp is embroiled in this controversy over the fact that they have their their pack their you know political action

committee arm of News Corp has just donated a million dollars to the Republican Governors Association Well it's news everywhere except where Barry guess where it's not news except on. Fuck yeah they haven't mentioned if you if you begin to put disparate things together like the citizens united group which says organizations like Fox can spend unlimited amounts of money to put their point of view out and to defeat people that they don't like and elect the people that they like and corporations simultaneously can tell people like me or people like anybody to stifle me I found cases where corporations and businesses fired people for bumper stickers or Obama fired people for saying they were going to vote for Obama. I even found one where a guy got fired for saying he was going to vote for Sarah Palin and the guy that fired him said well you're too stupid to work here. I don't think any of that is right.

So if corporations can control have the power to spend unlimited money to support their message and defeat the people that they don't like and simultaneously can tell all most people work for a living if they can tell all those people that if you have a bumper sticker if you aren't signed if you stand up at a at a town meeting in support of somebody I don't like you're out of it. You're out of a job. What would that do to the monument to Barry Nolan former host of backstage with Barry Nolan on CNET right here in Boston he was fired two years ago after protesting an award that was beginning being given to Bill O'Reilly by the local chapter of the of Neda's the National Association of Television Arts and Sciences It was the Emmy Awards two years ago. Nay going back to Comcast here for a minute you're your lawsuit are you. Are you looking at wrongful termination What are you looking for. Well fortunately in Massachusetts they have this wonderful civil rights law

which says that it can be a course of action. You can sue somebody if they try and use intimidation to prevent you from exercising any of the right that you're guaranteed under either the state or the federal Constitution. And one of the things they did was they spent one of their suits to meet with me prior to that to basically tell me the stock. And to hear that there would be consequence I say if I didn't and you didn't stifle you then did some leafleting at the actual Emmy Awards itself so you continued to to say things and take an active proactive stance even though they had told you to Cork it. I said in my on my own time away with no company resources demonstrably true thing in a room full of news people that represent news producing organizations. When that becomes a problem I think we're in trouble.

All right Barry. Good luck with this. I find it fascinating I thank you I thought tearing up did an excellent excellent job with that piece maybe it's kind of just too close to home. You know we find in your state but I thought it said a lot about the corporate culture in general about Fox about Comcast about all the players involved. I think one of the thing. Yeah I think one of the things I also think is interesting is that it was originally going to be probably the last people I know and it will be the national rate Laughs I know but I know my quotes hit the cutting room floor. I was very supportive of you parroted back at me. They got cut. All right Barry No I'm great to have you with us. Thank you Melissa. OK we're going to take a short break when we return. Another new twist in the story of the prince the girl who killed herself after being bullied by classmates. Listening to the Emily Rooney show Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Skinner auctioneers and appraisers of

antiques and fine art. You might consider auction when downsizing a home or disposing of an estate. Sixty auctions annually 20 collecting categories Boston in Marlborough online AD Skinner Inc dot com and from Newport Wine Fest and outdoor festival this weekend at the Newport yachting center you can sample hundreds of fine wines spirits specialty beer and feature dishes prepared by celebrity and regional chefs info at Newport Wine Fest dot com and from the New England mobile book fair in Newton New England's independent bookstore. The Book Fair is your summer reading list headquarters. More details online at any book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com. I'm Kelly Crossley. Coming up on the Calla Crossley Show will continue our 2010. Election coverage with Malone and his race for the 10th Congressional District. From there it's a behind the scenes look at a booming business scrapping the art of turning metal into money that more tomorrow one after the Emily Rooney show. One eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston NPR station for news and culture.

If you signed on as a WGBH member at the end of last summer. Thank you. Your gift helped deliver NPR News to countless commuters. Incredible concerts to a legion of students and reliable intelligence broadcasts to millions of New Englanders on a 9.7. And to so many more. Please keep making an impact by keeping up with your membership. You can renew your support online at WGBH dot org. This is eighty nine point seven dollars. Boston's NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with FRESH AIR and the Emily Rooney show. The new eighty nine point seven. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show Phoebe Prince the 15 year old South Hadley teenager who killed herself after allegedly being bullied by classmates has been at the center of all

kinds of discussions and proposed reforms about bullying in school. She's also been at the center of dozens of editorials editorials columns news articles largely portrayed as the sympathetic victim. But one reporter has dug a little deeper. And only Beslan of the online magazine Slate has found some new information she first reported that the original story line has a little more complicated than it seemed at first. And now she's discovered that while Phoebe was living in Ireland she might have been on the other side of the bullying teen. And Emily Bazelon senior editor at Slate joins me by telephone welcome Emily. Thanks for having me. This is great I have to say I give you a lot of credit. And actually going after the story and peeling back the layers of the getting a little further and then going to Ireland which no one else thought of. You yourself have now been searched. It's almost the center of some bullying yourself I have to say. Some of the comments and notes back to you have been you know you know people think that because if you find something negative or

that is at odds what has been before that you're certain that you have an agenda to prove something. But yes it's been a little strange. Think there's been a real division in reaction to this story. I've gotten a lot of very supportive and a lot of people you know have commented saying essentially what you said which is that they appreciate the attempt to kind of explain and understand better what happened to Phoebe at South Hadley High and how her middle school years that Ireland might connect up to that. But then you're right there also are other people who I think are really attached to the notion that this is a very black and white story about a bunch of evil kids who tormented Phoebe and they don't want to hear anything except that challenges that merit and this this absolutely goes to the heart of it because I've been saying since the day this story broke and I've said it to my friends with teenagers and everybody else on every given day I saw when my child was going through the teenage years herself in any given day you can be on the side of the people who are doing the taunting booing when to

call it teasing and there's all kinds of praise you can do it or you're on the receiving end of it and it can swing wildly from day to day week to week year to year. You go back and some of the stuff you discovered from her time in Ireland you've got these e-mails. It's it's not that it's so horrible. If I said it's a teenager saying you know bratty vicious bitchy things about other girls and other kids it's the kind of stuff kids do. And you can reduce it to one word you can say it's bullying. Right and I think but you know what you are putting your finger on is that this is pretty ordinary behavior that doesn't excuse it and I know terribly wounding to be a recipient of it but it's pretty ordinary and what's extraordinary about this case are the criminal charges. That's what really that's that's really set you off and you get in the criminal charges against the six original kids. Right exactly and they are five of them really are being charged with causing death because the serious charge they're facing civil rights violation with bodily injury the

bodily injury is her death and that's just a very unusual move for a prosecutor to make and that's what you know Drew my interest in this case and exploring it more deeply. What is your sense and only about the you know from the depth of the prosecution's case in South Hadley. I mean do they have do they have data the same way you do in terms of. You know I know they have some texting and that kind of thing but is it is it that bad. Well you know this is sort of the question I think. Everyone's been trying to answer from the beginning and it is such a subjective notion. I mean from from my understanding the worst behavior really took place on the day of Phoebe's death and that day in school there were three kids who you know hurled incest insults at her repeatedly during the day in front of other kids and she was texting about her to bear over and over the boy involved and before she died. So I think you know that the setting best behavior we certainly

would rather not have teenagers be doing. It involves three kids not six. So that's one important distinction to make and then I think the other thing to go back to is this question of you know it of course is terrible and extraordinary that Phoebe killed herself but could these kids who were being mean to her that day has ever really understood that that was on the line and should they be held accountable for that terrible consequence. Trying to and Emily Bazelon senior editor at Slate. And you also wrote a piece a couple weeks months back maybe about having discovered that Phoebe Prince suffered from some kind of mental anguish mental problems. How did you come upon that. Well. There are in court documents and essentially a lot of it comes from her mother's account and talks about how Phoebe started cutting herself in 2008 this is the one she was in eighth grade in Ireland and had been taking antidepressants on and off and then and then in South Hadley last November and this. The dates are important because they proceed. BOLLING I was just

talking about but in November Phoebe had made this previous suicide attempt. So you know she did have a history of some mental health troubles. And we don't know whether that first suicide attempt was prompted in any way by bulling or do we think it was not. I don't think there is. I haven't seen any evidence that it was it seems like it was prompted by a break up with the boy and her upset over that. Again like BS or you know these are hard things and. But there are things that most teenagers obviously go through without trying to commit suicide Luckily And so the question is you know what was different about this particular situation than did it have more to do with this girl's underlying state of mind than state of mental health than it did with the you know the actions of the kids around her. Emily how did you how did you get curious and interested in the story in the first place. You know I was working on the series for playwright based where you be. I'm actually well back. See part of the answer to my question. I'm based in New Haven Connecticut sort of randomly. But I work for this online magazine that has a

national scope and I was writing a series about cyber bullying and then this death happened in South Hadley in South Hadley Massachusetts is not that far from my house and so that was kind of my original really drove up there you know to sort of see what was going on and then I started talking to kids that passed Hadley and they just had such different things to say about what had happened to Phoebe than the media narrative that had taken hold and you know the more I talked to the kids there the more I was drawn into their world into trying to understand from their point of view why there was this enormous gap between the story that was out there and what they felt like they had experienced and seen. Did you feel without kneecapping or criticizing any other journalist that did a lot of people kind of bought this thing hook line and sinker. Yes absolutely and you know that's what happens when these stories kind of become hugely hyped media stories very quickly. Most people. You know and I know this isn't a dig at anyone in particular it's just the reality most people are not going to put in you

know reporting time and resources to spend many hours and take many trips back to a place over and over again it's a much easier to parachute in and look for the quote that the port the you know assumption you have going in and then just publish the story and get out especially with the story like this where you have a very sympathetic victim and I mean I believe that myself. Absolutely true like Phoebe sounds like she was a lovely charming bright and she was totally attractive girl it's not easy to be the person who then comes and says wait a second there was more going on. You're talking to Emily Bazelon senior editor at Slate What did you think Emily of that whole you know legislative process you know running around trying to organize some kind of an anti-bullying law and you think it mean is that effective or. Do I think the jury's still out on that and it just really depends what impact it has in the coming years. In some ways you know deaths like this as terrible as they are some good can come out of them. If the schools are better equipped to try and help kids treat each other

better than that you know could be a good consequence. I think it's not clear yet whether the law will have that effect whether it has enough teeth in it whether there really are enough good bowling prevention programs that will be able to be in the schools will be able to afford and which will integrate well into the curriculum. Those are the big open questions that I think you know people in Massachusetts will be wondering about. Yeah I'm curious. Just going back to a minute your trip to Ireland and talking to Phoebe's mother Anne O'Brien was Was she cooperative in a sense with you did she want to see if maybe there wasn't another side to this story. I did actually speak with Anne O'Brien I know about her point of view from the interviews she has seen the police in South Hadley I have spoken to Phoebe's father a number of times and I think that he is understandably very protective of his daughter and her memory as absolutely he should be but he's also an incredibly open minded generous person who is able to think about the perspectives of other kids involved in this

case as well. I mean he did he lead you to some of these kids in back when she was in the seventh grade at this Villiers school in Ireland. You know how did you find that what happened was that after I published my first story the parents from Villiers took me and I should clarify it. And actually go to Iowa to know everybody on the phone by looks. Sounds like you went there. That's very nice scribing the way they dress and everything like that I made that assumption that was a lie. But did you find people willing to cooperate with you on that. Yes they were and in fact I think that there were people of Villiers who were surprised that the Irish Press had not come and tried to investigate what had gone on there because they felt very strongly and this is from the parents point of view that the earlier school had mishandled the bullying that Phoebe took part in when she was in seventh grade and that if you know the school has reacted better then she might have gotten more help and then they had watched that play out in eighth grade when she started cutting herself and then left the school in the middle of the school year.

So it's interesting because I mean they saved all these messages you have this one girl when her mother sent you these messages and you've determined that this posting by somebody called Sex on the beach is indeed Phoebe Prince. That's right and you know essentially this was on an online site called Bebo which is kind of like my space and Europe. Oh that's always OK I wasn't sure about that. Yeah it's a popular social networking site for teenagers in Europe and the kids are having the kind of exchange. Just like kids have and you can almost feel them and I think this includes Phoebe kind of trying out different identities and pushing the boundaries. I don't think that Phoebe would have said some of the things in person. But no we don't says things in person that they say I write you know email or text I know right and I think it's a huge problem because we wouldn't say those things ourselves out loud and yet they have enormous power to hurt and they're in the back seat of that and you know Phoebe's father when I was talking about this that's something I thought was very wise which is that even good kids

abuse the freedom have to get rid of them. Emily Bazelon keep up the good work on this we'll look forward to the next edition. And with us now senior editor at Slate and the prince story. That's going to do it for us this afternoon and will be back tomorrow at noon with our weekly news round up in the mean time to need a greater Boston tonight 7:00 Suffolk County sheriff joins us to talk about the suicide of Philip Markoff the so-called Craigslist killer. Emily Rooney shows a production of eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for news and culture on the web at WGBH dot org slash. Emily Rooney the callee Crossley Show is coming up next on Emily Rooney. Have a great afternoon.