WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali crossing show. The Commonwealth is cracking down on parole last December a career criminal Dominick Cinelli shot and killed a police officer when a robbery ran amok. Though he had 3 life sentences he was given parole free to re-enter the community. So how did a man with a hardcore criminal history make it back onto the streets only to commit more crimes. It's a question that has legislators pushing to overhaul the parole system making it much harder for the state to deliver those get out of jail free cards. Good reforms penalize criminals who are really deserving of early release. And how will tighter restrictions affect an already overcrowded prison system. This hour we'll sort through the pros and cons of parole reform. We'll wrap up with a sneak preview of Wally city a local film that looks at New Bedford's fishing industry. Up next from the big house to the movie house. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Defense Secretary Robert Gates is urging Congress not to seek deeper spending cuts than those already

proposed for defense in prepared remarks defending the president's 2012 budget request. Gates said quote we shrink from our global security responsibilities at our peril. President Obama submitted a more than 3.7 trillion dollar budget plan to Congress earlier this week. Republicans argue the plan doesn't cut deeply enough to address the country's debt crisis. On his first official day as White House spokesman Jay Carney repeated the president's call for freedom of expression in Egypt where former President Hosni Mubarak was ousted in an uprising last week expression of the legitimate aspirations of their people is very important and they need to do it. They need to do it in a way that reflects what we believe what the president said are these universal values that each government needs to respect. And that is our freedom of expression freedom of the press freedom of movement freedom of assembly freedom of access to information the Internet in particular. Well Egypt's military junta is using texting the very tool that spurred an uprising to get its

own message out for the strikes to stop immediately. Cell phones across Egypt lit up with a warning for the second time in three days. Nearly 600000 housing units are under construction in the U.S. after builders broke ground on more new homes in January than any other time in 20 months. More on this from Daniel Carson. Builder started to work in more homes last month but almost all were apartment complexes construction of single family units fell and they make up the bulk of new home sales. Mother Nature didn't help. Huge snowstorm suspended work on thousands of projects our economics chief economist John writing says it's hard for builders to make a living when a huge number of foreclosed homes are being sold at fire sale prices. Such a thing. Sold homes. We have to absorb excess inventory before we can reasonably expect a significant recovery. Analysts say builders also face high unemployment tight credit and skittish would be

buyers afraid to take the plunge because of erratic home prices. For NPR News I'm Danielle Karson in Washington. Industrial output is down for the first time in 1000 months the Federal Reserve says production dipped a tenth of a percent last month in large part because of a decline in output by utilities. But the government says manufacturers increase their output last month by three tenths of a percent driven by strong sales in cars and trucks. The higher cost of gas is a big factor in January's overall jump in wholesale prices the Labor Department reports the Producer Price Index rose by eight tenths of a percent. At last check on Wall Street the Dow is up 41 points at twelve thousand two hundred sixty seven Nasdaq's up 13 a 28 17. This is NPR News. Borders files for bankruptcy today the bookstore chain announced it had filed for Chapter 11 protection plans to shut down 30 percent of its stores. More from NPR's Lynn Neary.

Warner says it has secured five hundred five million dollars in financing from G.E. capital to be used in restructuring its debt of more than a billion dollars. Creditors include all the major publishing companies with Hachette Book Group. Simon and Schuster and Random House topping the list borders has been unable to compete with online retailer Amazon and discount stores like Costco. It also failed to come up with a viable strategy for dealing with the competition from e-books. The company has not said which stores will be closed but operations will be normal at the stores that remain open. That includes honoring its rewards and gift card programs. Lynn Neary NPR News Washington. General Motors says it is recalling more than 50000 Cadillacs CTF vehicles because it says there's a problem in rear suspension that may make it difficult for drivers to steer. GM says The recall covers 2009 and 2010 models most of them were sold in the United States. Black History Month at the White House will be marked with a celebration of Motown

music. President Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama are expected to welcome performers including Smokey Robinson and John Legend for the event February 24th. It will be taped and broadcast on PBS March 1st. We're still seeing gains in U.S. stocks the Dow's rising up 35 to twelve thousand two hundred sixty two Nasdaq up 13 a 28 17 and the S&P 500 up 5 at thirteen thirty three. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation committed to helping Americans lead healthier lives and get the care they need on the web at our WJF dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show last December a Dominick's an L.A. shot and killed Wilbon police officer John McGuire. It turns out that Cinelli was on parole despite a long criminal history and three

life sentences. This incident has lawmakers calling for reform. Currently three separate bills have been filed on Beacon Hill that would all tighten the parole system. Joining me to talk about what is at stake if one of these bills is signed into law are representative KATHERINE CLARK a state senator working with bipartisan lawmakers on parole reform and Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea. Welcome to you both. Thanks for having us. Thanks Kelly. Listeners we want to hear from you where an 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Where do you stand on parole reform. Is this too little too late. Are we overreacting to one incident. Can we protect both criminals and citizens. And who wins and who loses if we tighten parole reform. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. So let me begin this way because these three bills one of them is put forward by Governor Deval

Patrick. Very confusing but essentially they're bringing the hammer down on anybody seeking parole. So Kevin why would you speak about the bipartisan bill. Thanks Cali. I'm so glad that you're having this it has certainly been something that I have heard from my constituents that they are very interested in. And from the public in general the Senate bill did come out of the wake of killing of a police officer Jack McGuire and it is really focused on looking at specifics around the parole board for example putting term limitations on the parole board that any one member can it's are more than 10 consecutive years. And it's really looking at ensuring that the parole board represents a diverse group of people in diverse communities and including law enforcement was a particular component. So that's that's the focus of it. We also in that bill proposed tightening up. Penalties

and denying parole for people who are serving multiple life sentences and that's the part that most of the public is interested in. Yeah they're mad with the old parole board but let's put that aside. They really want to know what the bill would do for parole reform because whomever sits in the seat on the parole board is going to have to follow the directions of one of these bills whichever one is passed. So that's the essence of I think what our listeners are interested in is that exactly you know what we have now and and how it's going to be better. Currently even if you receive a life sentence which people think of a life sentence says you will actually serve the rest of your life incarcerated but under our current system you are eligible for parole at 15 years served. So this bill proposed by the bipartisan group of senators would say that if you are serving multiple life sentences that you are no longer eligible for parole so you have to serve the maximum sentence. So that's the

major change from what we're doing now under this particular bill. OK. And really just want to get your take on the bills that are produced that are proposed rather. And Governor Patrick's bill by the way in contrast to the bipartisan bill requires that you serve two thirds of your sentence so now it says you know half or something and then it you have to do two thirds in order to make sure that you are eligible for parole. So what do you think about these bills as a person who's working with prisoner populations even though maybe not these you know does it a good idea. Well my perspective is both as someone who's working with people incarcerated at the county level but also as a prosecutor for 16 years before I was sheriff. There were a few things here. One is the fundamental understanding that people have a perhaps don't have about the way sentencing works generally in

Massachusetts and elsewhere. And so when you say multiple life sentences a person can receive have a multiple count complaint and SNL he did something short of murder and get multiple sentences and the judges decide whether or not those sentences will run concurrently or consecutively. Three life sentences running concurrently envisioned at the time so now he was sentenced that he would be eligible for parole at some point and that people would be able to weigh whether or not that would be an appropriate thing. Judges that do not want people to be paroled implement sentences consecutively. That's one after another after another. If we're right and so if you have one and then one from an after that one from an after that you are not you're you're a parole eligibility will not start to run until that you're in that third sentence. And then if the parole eligibility for that point. So I think that there is some. What a miscommunication but you say life sentence people take you at your word when in fact the

practical way that that works when you are involved in prosecuting cases and recommending sentences is that there's an entirely different conversation that goes on in the courtroom. That may not reflect what actually will happen to the person may not be reflected in the language of the sentence but sentencing is a very complicated thing that's been developed and developed over a period of time. The other problem for those of us who are in corrections is the fallout of such a decision and whether or not it has an impact at county level or state level. And I do firmly believe in the adage of you know hard cases make bad law. Not that this these bills are bad bills but I think that anything that is. Drafted and put forth in the very emotional aftermath of something as tragic as Officer McGuire's murder is makes it difficult. I my personal preference is that if you can and you can't always law should always be the product of very cool reflection by the people who make

it which is not to say that anyone involved in the filing of it is Bill's wasn't reflecting coolly. But if you take a step back and you look at the numbers look at why many people are being paroled how many people being eligible for parole. If you put these things in place. Exactly what does that mean for the rest of the system because nothing in the system operates in a vacuum. It is a can discriminate justice system is a continuum. Whether any agency within it ever talks or shares information with any of agency it is still a continuum at the end of the day and you have to look at what it will cost you to tighten that up on the front end tighten up on the front end will it cost you more to keep people in and are you making that it's less about. The fact of parole than it is about looking or drilling down as to who gets parole and why and how those decisions have being made and it can be difficult to tighten that kind of thing up in a state agency but I think you just have to really really drill down and look at what the actual end result will be.

OK our number is 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 eighty nine seventy. You can send us a tweet or a comment to our Facebook page. I am speaking with Andrea Caroll who is the Suffolk County sheriff and Representative Katherine Clark who is a state senator. And we're talking about parole. Well it's parole reform because there are three bills currently to be considered. Two of them coming out of the statehouse one from Governor Patrick that would tighten up parole as we have known it thus far. And this is happening in the wake of the death of the police officer who was killed by the violent long time criminal Dominic's NLE. Now to your point about cool reflection and taking a point back and not responding in the moment. State Senator Katherine Clark one of the things about Dominick's NLE is that as I look at this he had a violent long term behavior but he may not have even fit in these categories as you have redesigned them because

we're talking about lifers for the most part here and we're talking about. Situation which may be imposed on people who are not lifers but maybe nonviolent criminals. I want to be clear criminals criminals I'm not with the criminals. But there's a difference between lifers and nonviolent criminals and having their access to parole cut off seems not to shouldn't be the point it seems to me if you're in prison you have worked toward turning your life around and rehabilitating yourself when you're nonviolent not talking about Domenic Cinelli but they seem a little harsh in this in that direction. What do you say to that. Well I think there are two parts of the bills and one is specifically addressing eligibility for parole for people who are serving multiple life sentences like Dominick Cinelli was. That is a very small proportion of these

small proportion of parolees who are serving one life sentence. There are approximately three hundred and forty parolees currently in Massachusetts who were sentenced to a life sentence. Ninety percent of them so only about 34 parolees now are actually were serving multiple life sentences. And that's really what this bill is at the heart of it is trying to do is tighten up that system. I think that if Dominic Cinelli was coming through the parole board today I think we can make other changes to the board. He probably would not have been granted parole because we did not institute sort of that evidence based risk assessment tool that was used in other states. In other words show us what you've done and let's look at it before you get this parole. That's right. We did not put that system in until 2009. And they have since run his. His

indicators through that assessment and he would have scored in a very high risk category. So you know I think the good news is that there have already been some changes to the system that could have prevented this type of tragedy. And this particular individual with his real propensity for violence from getting out. But I wanted to address what Sheriff brawl said about the need for it to be deliberative and to be balanced because I think that we do react to cases such as this that are so egregious and the case that it's at the base of Melissa's bill which is sort of the other third big bill that is pending around sentencing reform in addressing habitual offenders Senator Bradley Bill. That's right Representative Brad Hill's bill that came out of another terrible case where 27 year old teacher her car broke down she was picked up. By what turned out to be her

murderer who was someone who had only served two years in prison even though he had been sentenced to 27 years combined for his different crimes. So I think that a lot of these bills are coming out of the situation. On December 26 involving Jack McGuire but it's a long deliberative process and that's where I think what we were discussing earlier is really the need to make sure that. In the legislative process we are talking to our sheriffs OK we are talking to our Department of Corrections and everybody's in the conversation together. We're going to have more of this conversation that was my guess. State Senator Katherine Clark I'm also talking with Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea Kroll and we're talking about overhauling the Massachusetts parole system. You can call us 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8. If women have a an opinion do these prisoners deserve a second chance what about men and women locked up on more minor offenses. What about prisoners rights. 8 7 7 3 0 1

89 70. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Weston financial providing comprehensive financial tax estate planning and asset management services for high net worth clients in the Boston area and nationally for more than 30 years. Weston financial dot net. And from opera Boston presenting the New England premiere of Hindemith's cardiac February 25th twenty seventh and March 1st at the Cutler Majestic Theater probably supporting the world weekdays at 3 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. And from NOVA Science now. Looking at the start of our solar system and the start of life with where did we come from. That's where did we come from on NOVA Science now. Tonight at 8:00 p.m. on WGBH too. On the next FRESH AIR the co-founder of Twitter Biz Stone will talk about how Twitter was used in Egypt to help organize the revolution and then to spread democracy movements in other

countries. We'll also talk about what he had in mind when he co-created Twitter and what surprised him about how it's turned out. Join us for the next FRESH AIR. This afternoon at two on eighty nine point seven WGBH. Celebrate 40 years of masterful performances with WGBH in the critically acclaimed PBS series masterpiece Saturday evening April 9th at the WGBH studios. Enjoy a night of good food fun drinks and a look back at this series remarkable history. Share a toast with masterpiece producers and take in a cabaret performance by the host of Masterpiece Mystery. Alan Cumming I don't have a mic that's about to get started. Fifty dollars. Call 6 1 7 3 0 0 fifty four hundred. We're running out of oxygen. I only have so many people that I can treat the world and it's not an easy decision for anyone to make. Coming up at 3 o'clock on an eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston

NPR station for news and culture. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just tuning in we're talking about parole reform. Currently three separate bills have been filed on Beacon Hill that would tighten the parole system. Joining me to talk about what is at stake if one of these bills is signed into law are representative KATHERINE CLARK a state senator working with bipartisan lawmakers on parole reform and Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea Kroll. We have a caller Bridget from Boston you're on eighty nine point seven. WGBH Go ahead please. Thank you. I think Joy is listening. The Pine Street in and one of the issues that we hear about is that parolees are let out. They use Pine Street as their address but they're not necessarily living there and so it's violent parolees level three sex offenders but they're all using this as just that kind of a don't think we're out.

And I wondered if they could address that before they address it I want to know. How do you feel about parole reform. Well I think it's a good idea but I'm not. But some of these issues I'm not sure how they'll be addressed. OK very good. We're 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That was Bridget from Boston asking a question. State Senator Katherine Clark. The same concerns that Bridget had. I have heard from local police in my district saying that they wish they had better notification of who was in their community when they came out on parole. We do a very good job of notifying police. When a sex offender moves into the community and this is actually something that I've met with the secretary of public safety about and they are looking into and in the process of really improving this notification because I think

one of the things that came out of the Cinelli case was that they believed he had also been involved in a robbery of a supermarket in Stoneham. And if there had been better awareness he had a very particular way that he committed crimes and it fit his pattern and he may have been apprehended in that before he could go on and. The murder of a police officer in as part of his robbery of the coals. So I think that having a more updated picture really being able to verify the addresses that people are giving said that they are not giving false addresses. And it's really sort of the name of the governor's bill to really build a better more comprehensive re-entry and community supervision system so I think that is definitely part of this discussion is not just a sentencing denying parole

for certain offenders but really had we build a better system overall and I think that the Office of Public Safety has already taken the secretary public safety is already taken some good steps in that direction. Andrea corral sheriff of Suffolk County. I think Brigitte makes an excellent point we have approximately 250 people per month are paroled from the Suffolk County House of Correction and that's when the Pine Street in is right there almost literally across the street from the house of correction and you have people who fall into a couple of categories people who are paroled and believe that they do have an address to go to because at the time that they were being paroled friends or relatives say yes you can stay with me and then the person gets out and it becomes too great a burden to take another person into the home where there can be any one of a number of issues. And some of those people end up in Pine Street. There are people who are paroled who are going to be homeless when they're paroled and it's known that they're going to be homeless when they're paroled and they end up at Pine Street and that's put a huge burden on the Pine Street

in because you have families staying there. People have not been involved in the criminal justice system who are you know forced by virtue of no place else to live to share quarters with people who commit crimes for a living so Bridget's point is is very very well taken as is Katherine's about putting more of an investment into what we do our ground re-entry. If you can build someone's job skills and build their capacity to to have their own place to live utilize more halfway houses as transitional houses in Suffolk County we utilize the brick house for men in the McGrath house for women. Those are transitional places that people who who can live as they're transitioning out of the institutions and they don't end up necessarily at a place like Pine Street where they're sort of interacting with very vulnerable populations. It is the whole the entire cost and mechanism of Corrections is in parole and sentencing is currently under a great deal of scrutiny and not without justification. You know my advocacy is

around everyone always being at the table and being able to offer and contribute what their little corner of the world does and to work cooperatively with all of the others so we're saving as much money as we possibly can but also spending what we need to spend the right way and toward the right things where there's going to be some sustainable at least semi-permanent good result from it. Let's talk about you know so I think in people's minds parole seems like a Get Out Of Jail Free card. It doesn't. People don't understand that there is monitoring when we hear these stories OK there's these sex offenders wandering around nobody knows where they are. Police don't know. Sounds like it's kind of this really loose system. And so you know I'm scared that extended next to me is some guy I don't know that the police don't know is out and he's out and nobody is monitoring him. Well what some experts suggest is that when people in particular the nonviolent people are working toward parole but I doing the kinds of things to get ready for re-entry so in

fact if parole is tightened up to and to the extent that they don't have access to it they won't study in prison they won't learn a new trade. And so you know there we are with the kind of folks who when they eventually get out are not who we want to have out and recruit well. You know for him we don't force people to go to their parole hearings you are parole eligible at a certain point when you're serving House of Correction sentence which has to be distinguished from a state prison sentence for very serious felonies which would occur over you'd get a number of years in state prison for those kinds of felonies but you don't have to go to a pro hearing you can wrap up your sentence and get out and you are literally released and no one is supervising you. So that's the other thing people don't you know think people may think parole is a get out of jail free card but it comes with monitoring and supervision. And it comes after the implementation of some standards. The people you really have to worry about of the people who say I'll finish my sentence it's not a problem. I don't need to go before the parole board and when I get out I don't want anyone watching

me. So when I get out it will be because I have finished my sentence and I'm on to bigger and better things there was a really the people that you have to watch out for everyone else's is being monitored in some form or fashion now at some point and let me give this number for our listeners again it's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and again you can send us a comment to the Facebook page or send us a tweet. And I was just talking about it listeners but do you think that people with more minor convictions deserve a second chance. I've heard from victims advocates and they've said no more second third chances you know cut these people off that's it. But one of the real issues that was a boon for the parole system particularly for people again who are nonviolent is the overcrowding in jails Andrea Carrboro. I mean that's a cost factor too. You mentioned it a little bit earlier. What what are we talking about in jails and prisons now. When we say overcrowding is that two or three more people or what we mean.

You know I think that you know the the are real of a currently for sheriffs the real overcrowding problem is actually at the jails versus the house of correction. The jails are where people are held on bail awaiting trial. And those are always overcrowded because the number of people being arrested on an offense is serious enough for having such a poor history with the court that bail has to be imposed a bail that they can't make is impose a much greater if you're talking about House of Correction population. Parole is we consider parole to be necessary and appropriate. Based on what the person has done while they're in custody if they're involved in certain kinds of programming if their behavior has been good they were all a manner of things that you have to show the parole board before you're eligible for it's likely that you'll get a favorable decision on your parole. And yes the system would become incredibly I think overcrowded if you're talking about 250 of 300 a month that are pearled out of the house of

correction then you know what will happen if somehow that stops. I don't think that the bill that Senator Clark Clark was has worked on deals as much with the county house of correction population as the significant Sisk significantly sentenced state prisoners. The only thing in that bill I think is the sort of three felony convictions right which would have an impact that would have an impact on House of Correction population because you can. I don't know if the statute if the legislation says three unrelated felony convictions or just three felony conviction. The bottom line is it's crowded in there and we and parole has worked well for some in that to really sure at the county level. Definitely especially where you have Reno you can program people right we have some callers who want to get in this conversation Marc from Cambridge on eighty nine point seven WGBH Go ahead please. Yes thank you for taking my call. My question. Right. My comment but that was a question really. My question first off is what percent of the prisoners we have in a prison currently are there for nonviolent offenders

nonviolent offenses. And if that is a significant percent which I'm assuming it is can we start to seriously develop alternatives that the systems for those people so we can clear out this system and make it more sensible specifically and think about people who are in drugs and in drug crimes. And if we had instead of you know as he did dovetails into the whole question of really legalization and or legalization of all drugs and then with monitoring of them and you know the system that we used sort of like with alcohol or with methadone or something like that and get these people into treatment systems or nonviolent sentencing system so that we aren't confusing a justice system in dealing with really very different sorts of individuals in the same sort of prison way and or is this too is just a third rail which we just can't touch. The conversation is too difficult for any one of those really question marks.

Thank you very much for your call Mark. That was it was an excellent excellent question and I think the answer to it is yes we can do those things. But as always there will be some level of caviar. If you're talking about you know people think that in at least in Suffolk County it doesn't happen very very few people if any are going to jail for simple possession of drugs. I don't care what the drug is. Simple possession. You're not getting a jail sentence. Second third fourth time chances are no judge is sending you to jail. Possession with intent to distribute. Even if you yourself have a drug problem and you are selling to you know in in part you're supporting your own habit. That would be considered on its face to be a nonviolent crime. But what you have to do when you drill down is to see how much of that is gang related. How much of that is involved in other violent activities around the drug territory and drug turf. So the answer to Mark's question is yes but there will require some drilling down should there be diversion programs for any one of a number of things absolutely would we cut down the population considerably if we

offered more drug abuse and substance abuse treatment before people ever got to the point of adding crime into their addiction. That's absolutely true as well there's a greater investment up front. It would always result in huge cost cutting beef at the time of Corrections in throughout the course of someone's journey through the correctional system. I'm about to take this call but I want to point out that a lot of these programs are no longer funded or can't be because we're in a budget crunch. So let's put that on the table too. And we also have the loss of the alcohol tax exempt lending a lot of our substance abuse programs and just to Marc's point quickly. I think the governor's bill is really trying to get at a lot of what Mark brought up and really trying to strike a more comprehensive balance in our sentencing and with his habitual offender recommendations he has listed out certain violent felonies which would certainly avoid the situation that California found itself in where you were having relatively low

level sometimes shoplifters serving out life sentences without parole under their habitual offender which is part of the reason they are incarcerating over 200000 people in the state of California. Yeah. That was State Senator Katherine Clark. And now we're going to Kenneth from Providence you're an eighty nine point seven WGBH. Go ahead please. Oh you're fine. But Michael my question is this. I'm just going to the fact that we're all being. Very soon in prison. How much of the law is being addressed to rehabilitate both incarcerated. You mean in prison. Yes in prison. OK I can speak I can speak for the sheriffs in Massachusetts thanks. I mean we we all do re-entry programming for that reason and it's not just re-entry programming we by and large all of us and I can certainly set a specific county have educational vocational

and life skill programs that a wide variety actually that people can engage in while they're serving the bulk of their sentence. And then in Suffolk County four separate re-entry programs for to transition people from men and women to transition people in the months just before their release through re-entry programs that are specifically designed to ease their transition back into the community with enhanced job skills and life skills greater potential for sustainable housing and all of the things that we know will go a great. Deal toward not them not re-offending because recidivism rates are just generally so high people return to the exact same circumstances as they left before they were incarcerated with even greater deficits. And so they re-offend and it's and it's inevitable so re-entry is a very very big part of it we definitely do it in Suffolk County and the sheriffs throughout the Commonwealth do some of the best reentry programming actually in the country.

OK cam from when Sion Dunn you're on eighty nine point seven WGBH Go ahead please. Hi there good afternoon. Hi. I just a couple of one question a quick comment. Massachusetts as I've heard is the one of the states with the highest incarceration rate in the country. And I'm trying to put that into context with the issue of size of the state. Number one I'm sure of Kroll is shaking your head no that's not true so you can go to the next thing then go yeah ok. Thank you for clarifying. I don't understand why you know it shouldn't be rocket science with a violent criminal past there should be much more specific and strict criteria associated with their parole board hearings. So your question is how did it happen with Dominic's. I only had outer space already I mean I think it's great that working on you

know revamping the program but why was I already not happening. That's an excellent question came up earlier. State Senator Katherine Clark mentioned that that something had been put in place but going to his right. I think we were we were behind the national trend and using that risk assessment tool that many other states had already put in place. Excuse me while that is more than regrettable I think that we do have that in place now and what we're really trying to do with this bill is make sure that we have the best practices and that we are keeping those offenders with the highest propensity for re-offending violently are the you know much more limited in their ability to get parole. But I think that there's some good news and while Massachusetts right now incarcerates about 25000 people which is a high for Massachusetts historically I don't

think that compared to other states we have a high rate of incarceration. And we also do have a very successful parole program in that we about 70 80 percent of our parolees successfully complete parole under supervision. That's compared to 51 percent nationally. So we have some areas that I really believe we need to tighten up this process address those violent repeat offenders. But I think that we also have some very positive things going on in our in our jails in our House of Corrections in our Department of Corrections in our prisons and the sheriff won't say it but she has really been a leader on a lot of these re-entry programs that are what makes them successful. And I think what we're trying to do with this legislation is really focus in on the violent offenders. But also understand that 90 to 95 percent of

everyone who is incarcerated is going to return to the community. And so a huge part of public safety for the Commonwealth is making sure they come out with better skills than they go in with Senator Clark. I don't need to tell you that you know after this Dominick Cinelli case and some of the others people just ranting about Massachusetts being some free and easy almost hippie place no worse than California then anybody who's a horrible criminal can just walk out and get parole. I mean what can we do and what can you say about it to let people know that's not what has been the case and that these bills are not going to go thou the opposite him where nobody gets a chance. Who is deserving of re-entry. I think that these bills especially you know there are different sections of each one of them is really does strike a common sense balance. We need to do the hard work that we referred to before of making sure we are talking to Department of

Corrections to the parole to our sheriffs to make sure that we are not having some unintended consequences that are going to take a huge toll not only on public safety but on the taxpayers. We want a system where people when they come out of incarceration are returning as full community members and that we stop that cycle of re-offending and being Bree in car car separated. It is something that its not good for us from a public safety perspective and its terrible for us from a community building perspective. So we want to make sure this is sort of in a way part of the second part of the Cory reforms that we took on in the legislature last year. We want a system that our priority is safety for the public but also the recognition that we do not want to fall into California's trap and that we want to make sure that people are given the skills and the opportunities to put their lives back together.

Make the case for parole. I mean give us the story of somebody who you know on and on his or her face would not seem to be ever able to be recycled if you will. Re-entry into the community but but but they work hard in prison and they turn their lives around and they had another chance and they're doing OK now. Well. At that I can't identify I wouldn't identify people with special money but I know right. Yeah. But I will I will say this I am very familiar with someone who by all accounts would have been completely inappropriate to get a parole but had worked hard while improving themselves while they were doing their time and is now out and is now in a position of substantial responsibility and giving back to the very community. That they once had a very detrimental impact on on a daily basis as

well as having been a significant part of a workforce for over the last 10 years and there are plenty of stories like that. I mean it is it is one of the great things about the bill that Senator Clark was talking about as it was done in a bipartisan way and it's always so unfortunate that you know people you know want to portray Massachusetts as one thing or the other and they politicize a tragic death like this or a problem in a system like this. The bottom line is that everyone who's involved in the criminal justice system either in corrections or in sentencing prosecution anyone is making a decision on what should happen with someone who is convicted or about to be released is engaged in the risk assessment process. We are human beings trying to do something that involves a certain element of risk because the person who appears to not be a risk at all to offend can walk out have something happen and end up doing something absolutely heinous. By the same token someone who you would be scared to

death to make that decision will walk out those doors and will you will never see that person again and they will work hard to make sure that you never see them again. And there's a there's a human element to that where were people making these decisions. And and I think. Set a clock's point is very well-taken that these three bills. Ultimately what will end up with is something that's common sense and straightforward and easily understandable. Every system can stand to be looked at and reformed in some way it's really how you go about it and what you consider that determines the ultimate success or failure of that reform. And you know we try really hard to put as many things in place to give us confidence that the risk assessment that we're making is going to turn out well. Sometimes it turns out well and sometimes it doesn't but the bottom line is that a 78 percent success rate for our parole board is phenomenal when you compare it to the rest of the country. So it's never all of what one side says or all of what the other side says The truth is always somewhere in the middle and there are plenty of public servants in the middle trying to make sure that where we

take what doesn't work and make it better and that we sustain what at what does work. All right. Well we'll leave it there for today. Thank you very much. Sheriff Andrea Kroll and State Senator Katherine Clark. We've been talking about overhauling the state's parole system with Representative KATHERINE CLARK a state senator working with bipartisan lawmakers on parole reform and Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea. Up next it's a look at a new independent film made and based in New Bedford. We'll be back after this break. Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Somerset Subaru featuring the five

star NHTSA government crash test rated Impreza. You can customize your super by ordering genuine parts and accessories online. Located off Route 195 Somerset auto group dot com and from Lowell auditorium presenting jazz trumpeter Chris Botti on Friday March 4th. Then you can spend the afternoon of March 6th with humorist and storyteller Garrison Keillor of A Prairie Home Companion. Tickets at Lowell auditorium dot com. The king of Jordan has been watching Egypt and is trying to preempt a popular uprising in his country but Jordanians are already in the streets demanding change. We'll hear from Jordanian groups including Islamists who hope to ride the wave of popular dissent and learn how their government is responding. The view from Jordan next time on the world. Coming up at three o'clock here at eighty nine

point seven WGBH. Hi I'm Annie Copps food editor at Yankee Magazine. And if you love learning new recipes with public broadcasting then I hope you join me for the WGBH learning towards taste of Europe. Get away with the one and only chef shocker aboard the marina. The newest luxury liner in the Oceana fleet will travel to London Paris Barcelona and Rome to taste and make some great dishes along the way. For information visit WGBH dot org slash learning tours. I'm President John Abbott with an urgent request. Congress is about to vote on a proposal to eliminate all federal funding for public radio and TV. You should have something to say about that. Go to WGBH dot org. Tell Congress how you feel. And thank you. I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. Joining me in the studio is Jay Burke.

He wrote directed and produced the Independent Feature Film wailing city. It's set and filmed in New Bedford. Today we're giving you a sneak preview of the film which is currently in post-production. It should be ready to hit the screens this spring. Welcome. Thank you for having me. All right so tell us the story of wailing city. It's basically a fictionalized story about a third generation commercial fisherman who is trying to hold onto his boat despite tightening regulations in a downturn economy. It's a lot of people ask the question Is it a documentary No it's a narrative feature length film with screen actors guild signatory. And basically was a project I had started around 10 years ago when I was a student an MFA student at Columbia University. The project sort of evolved over the years and it was really the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation that. Kind of gave us the the grant money which in the past has been seed money but in the in our case in a rough economy it was pretty much our budget to make the film so.

So we did it on a ultra low budget and we did it in kind of right as a lot of a lot of these fishermen were were facing some of these very challenges. So it was it was a pretty interesting experience trying to shoot on boats but the boats that we had scheduled to shoot on would. Shut down and go out of business and we're telling a story about a boat you know essentially struggling not going out of business. Yeah I'm going to explain to our listeners what some of those challenges are. Were and are but when you started this you you. These challenges weren't at play the exact challenges were in play. Actually when I started the process the seedling of the process was really the cinematic nature of New Bedford I was just down there and you know kind of struck by how cinematic It was I was born in New Bedford and grew up in Dartmouth which is a town the neighboring town. But as I started to you know look into a story and something that would be kind of part and parcel of New Bedford there were there were a lot of regulations that were coming into

play from around 96 to 2000. And in fact it was a you know a lot of stories in the standard times and it would stand at times but there was also a four piece series in The Boston Globe around that time it was around ninety eight. And that's when I started to realize there's a real story here there's a real significant story here. Granted that story has evolved over the years and changed in terms of regulations and what that means but. But it wasn't quite as. Front and center as it is today. You know I should let our listeners know that senior investigative reporter Philip Martin who works for WGBH radio actually did a series looking at some of these regulations but in short here is what it is. Federal officials set up a new regulation system and the whole set up limited the days fishermen could be at sea under the new system. New England's ground fit ground fish catch mainly cod and haddock is divided among co-operative groups of boats call sectors sector allotment is based on past

catches and where they were the new sector management allows fisherman to lease quoters from other fisherman and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. You know A is a part of the Department of Commerce in charge of the fisheries and they set the limits on the total catch and that information is from the economists. So that's the dry but very. Very important challenges it that the fishermen are facing in real life and I want to give our listeners a sense of what you have done in a fictional way with this film to demonstrate how they are trying to survive in the midst of these these new new regulations OK so in this scene shonen independent commercial fisherman confronts Burkey of Bercy seafood about importing fish and how these imports are affecting the price of local fresh catches. They get to do whatever they want and I could have been chasing something else verge when I was a little fish coming in fourth grade in a New York courtroom school and I think it was Canadian football

and it's been sitting on the truck a week long Take a look around. You have Canadian you have ice when you have Alaskan if you buy in that garbage then what's the market for recognition. I got to make a living barge. I need to run this company. You take a standard you can lose today and then you win tomorrow and I lose one more time I'm gone. He's running amok and I drop the price even more. And that was from the forthcoming film wailing city which was written directed and produced by my guest Jay Burke. And in that scene Sean was played by PJ saw SCO and Birky of Berkeley seafood was playing himself. So is that one of the reasons you chose another reason you chose New Bedford because you had the homegrown characters there. Yeah I mean well it's been the you know New Bedford's been the top grossing commercial fishing for in the United States for the last 10 years despite these regulations but I you know admittedly I didn't grow up in the in the fishing world so it was a process of opening doors for me as well. And it's been you know I think historically commercial fishing world has been a little bit of a closed world.

So it's only been all over the you know most recent years where I think commercial fishermen are now speaking out a bit more and kind of getting their points of view out there and so the timing of our film was great and also being a local really helped you know being from New Bedford really helped open doors but. But the commercial fishing industry was you know Bergy and the scores of others that I work with were just great in terms of letting us shoot on their boats and their plants and that sort of thing to get the really authentic feel. I should note and tell our listeners that this week New Bedford was named one of the top travel destinations in the country. So there is that beauty that's there as well. Well that's I mean that's part of the you know the story that I'm telling is set in the commercial fishing world. But you know granted I am from from the area but it's a really amazing part of the country and the been times that you know when I was living in New York and going to film school I brought people back to New Bedford and they were all so fascinated they didn't realize that you know it was this such a huge whaling port that it was such a huge you know that that led

to whale oil fueling such a industrial revolution there they didn't realize that there was an underground railroad there they didn't realize that you know it was such a huge and important fishing port still and you know in the textiles and it's just there's so many layers of richness there. And I think that's hopefully I was able to weave that into the story a little bit too. And yet Jay and I'm speaking with Jay Burke who is a filmmaker whose independent feature film is about. Really local fisherman in set in New Bedford you say you don't want this to be a political film because a lot of politics going now Senator Scott Brown just said got to have a new bill to help these fisherman. Governor Deval Patrick is complaining bitterly about what the feds are doing with their regulations and now it's hampering what the local fishermen can do. So the issue is political. It is it is political I have I mean there's just two sides to that coin. The one thing is I do think as I as I said I do think that the the fishermans perspective in the commercial fishing

industry perspective has been somewhat under-represented I mean whether or not that's as a result of kind of their past attitudes or not. You know I won't say but. But they have been under represented and I feel like though their points of view need to be heard before decisions get made that are irreversible. An analogy I use is you know the shopkeeper might be able to shutter his store and three months later take the lease back out and open up shop again. That's not the case with these fishermen and you know once they're out of business that's it that's the end of the road and. You know it could be a freshman who's a third of fourth generation commercial fisherman there's more the obviously there's an economic impact there but there's more than economic impact there's a cultural impact and we're one of the founding economic areas of this country was commercial fishing if you look back you know in the state house there's a cup a cod at the top of the state house the sacred Cod so it's beyond just

I think politics and that sort of thing. The other side to that equation is you know I'm a filmmaker and I my job is to try to dramatize these stories and to bring people to life and I don't think it's necessarily it's not as I said it's not a documentary and I don't think it's necessarily my position to get to polar in terms of you know taking sides taking sides I feel like I feel like if we can tell a compelling story and make people interested in the topic then you know there's there's other avenues that they can go and learn the facts there's lots of newspapers journals that sort of thing so we're not trying to be the authorities but hopefully we shed some light on a topic that's important. Is that what you want people to take away from this after they see it. Yeah I think so I mean I hope it's compelling and entertaining I hope that people are really. Want to hear different sides of the story. The you know the commercial fisherman the environmentalist in the you know the science has played a big part in recent years

commercial fishing fishermen and scientists of become a lot more cooperative in terms of their research. There's you know there's obviously the conflict of the fishing side on the environmental side and but your film is not about spinach it's a feature film let's just let you know as I get it. So you're not giving us a policy policy wonks. No no John story. That's exactly what it is the story of his struggle and you know and some in some respects I think that that's a in the last couple of years it's a universal story you know people struggling to pay off their mortgage and that sort of thing and so hopefully hopefully the timing is right and hopefully it's compelling and we can shed some light on the topic. Well I think in New England we have a sense of what's at stake here and I remind you Jay Burke that the last fish story that was a feature film here was perfect storm so that's right around that way. That's right. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you very much for having me. We've been talking about the forthcoming film whaling city with Jay Burke. He wrote directed and produced the independent feature which is set and filmed in New Bedford. You can keep on top of the Calla

Crossley Show at WGBH data work slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. Become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. Today Show was engineered by Jane pink and produced by Chelsea murders and a white knuckle be an Abby Ruzicka production of WGBH radio. Boston's NPR station for news and culture.