American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with John Lewis, 3 of 3

[long tone] [interviewer] should be responsible um um for this situation. Let's roll Steve. Why did Shuttlesworth feel that that Patterson was was responsible. What did he mean by that? [Lewis] Reverend Shuttlesworth felt that Governor Patterson had the power, had the authority to to stop the violence on the part of the Klan element in Montgomery, in Birmingham, in Anniston, and all along the way. When he ran for governor, he had been supported by the Klan he had influence with them, and they had influence with him. [interviewer] So what did he (Shuttlesworth) mean by, that he (Patterson) was

responsible? [Lewis] more than anything else, I think Fred Shuttlesworth meant that the governnor could have used his power, his authority, to call out the Alabama State Troopers and have them to guard us when we arrived in Montgomery. He could have keep a mob from gathering at the church, but he didn't. If it hadn't been for President Kennedy federalizing the Alabama National Guard, putting the city of Montgomery under marshal law, some of us many of us would've been killed at night [interviewer] What was the mood like before the Guard is called out? You know you have 1500 people or so trapped in this church, you have an angry mob outside, you have nobody but these kind of federal marshals who were you know postal clerks or whatever they are deputized. You know

you're not going to get any help from the local police. What was the mood like in the church that night? [Lewis] The mood in the church that night it was tense at the same time was one of hope people singing, praying. It was a sense of faith that it's all gonna work out, that somehow it was this feeling that we're in the House of the Lord and it's going to be alright. Many of these people, they came through the bus boycott. Their churches have been bombed, their homes have been bombed. They've been down this road before. They had been tested, they were ready. [interviewer] So they weren't as scared as you might think. [Lewis] They were not as scared or frightened as would've been in some communities and neighborhoods going through this for the first time. I

remember that evening, or early that morning, when the general of the National Guard made a decision to transfer us to one home, including Dr. King and Reverend Abernathy and all of the Freedom Riders. And when I looked back, it was a brave and courageous black family. The owner of this home had been a Tuskegee Airman named Dean Harris. He was a pharmacist. We all stayed at his home. [interviewer] I wanna ask you a couple questions about that, but just one or two other things I want to talk about the church. One of the things that that is fascinating in that film clip where you see Shuttlesworth and you see King um is that I forgot I think it's Shuttlesworth or King, I can't remember which one, announces that that the National Guard is now going to protect the church, and people kind of erupt in applause and start

hugging. And I was wondering why, because, tell me if i'm wrong, because it seems like one you're safe but two it means that now the federal government has chosen a side in the battle. It's been forced to choose a side. So the question is, when you see this announcement and then people are hugging because the National Guard is going to come, why? [Lewis] People rejoice, people express a sense of relief and happiness because they knew that the federal government has spoken from Washington. They knew that for the first time the Kennedy administration, President Kennedy, his brother Robert Kennedy, had identified with their side, with the side of civil rights. And also knew that they would

be safe. [interviewer] Great thank you. At Harris's house there's this effort to persuade Martin Luther King to be part of the Freedom Rides. Tell me tell me about that. [Lewis] We had several discussions, several meetings with Dr. King and James Farmer, Fred Shuttlesworth, and many others. And we wanted to continue the Ride and we wanted Dr. King to go on the Ride. There's a great photograph, a great picture when we boarded the bus to leave the city of Montgomery and we wanted Dr. King to be with us. But he felt he could not go because he had a charge back in Georgia, back in Atlanta, and to get arrested and go to jail again, would revoke his bail,

but he wanted to identify with the ride so the picture of him shaking hands with one of the Riders through the window of a bus as the bus pulled out from Montgomery to go to Jackson Mississippi. [interviewer] Yeah but an interesting passage in your book, and I think it says a lot about, more about the students, and you know where they were -I'd love for you to talk about it if you would- than it does about Martin Luther King I think. As he refuses or says he cannot go on the Ride there's a real sense of disappointment in Martin Luther King, and you talk in your book about hearing for the first time somebody mutters the phrase "The Lord." Tell me about the sense of disappointment that Martin Luther King won't go on the Ride [Lewis] Many of the young people, many

many of us were disappointed that Dr. King made the decision not to go on the Ride cause we wanted him to go with us. No I had never been to Mississippi before. Alabama was one thing, Georgia something else, but going to Mississippi? We knew what happened to Emmitt Till. Some of us were about the same age as Emmitt Till would have been, and we thought we needed the protection, we needed an internationally known spokesperson, a leader like Dr. King to be with us. But we used to a sing a song "If you don't go, don't hinder me, I'm going anyhow." So were determined to go and we get on that Greyhound bus and we traveled from Montgomery to Jackson. [interviewer] I'm going to ask you, I'm going to go back cause there are some things as you know that happened

on that Ride. But talk about that muttering of that term "The Lord" that that you hear for the first time when King first says he's not going to go. [Lewis] That was some young people within the movement on the Freedom Ride some SNCC people started referring to Dr. King as "The Lord," that he was bigger than any of us, and he was "The Lord." I never called him The Lord because I have so much respect and affection and love for the man that I refused to call him The Lord. [interviewer] When they called him The Lord what did they they mean? [Lewis] That he was The Lord, he was higher, he was powerful, he was beyond us. [interviewer] It was kind of a sarcastic thing? [Lewis] Yes facetious, sarcastic yes. [interviewer] If you could just say that cause we just gotta know that the term.

[Lewis] To refer to Dr. King, as some people did, The Lord, was being facetious, sarcastic, that he was beyond all of us. [interviewer] ok um Talk about what you remember about the trip into Jackson from Montgomery. One things that's fascinating about it to me is that at each point there's more and more protection until finally, at this point now, you got you got National Guard people on the bus with you. When you see that bus pulling out it just looks like an armed camp or something. Talk about that trip, what you remember about it. [Lewis] When we left the Montgomery bus stationed there was National Guard

soldiers on the bus riding with us, in front of the bus leading us. There was National Guards individuals behind the bus, and when we got to the Mississippi state line the Mississippi National Guard picked us up. Some got on the bus, some behind the bus, some in front of the bus, and took us to Jackson to the Greyhound bus station in downtown Jackson. You get to Jackson you're going to the so-called White Waiting Room, marked White Waiting. Most of the black Freedom Riders were going to the so-called white waiting room the so called white freedom riders were going to the so-called Colored waiting room, and sometimes it would be and integrated group, we would mix each other, mix em up. We get inside, there was a Captain his name was Ray. Captain Ray.

Amd Captain Ray would say one word, or maybe two words, he would say "Move on." You can be trying to get something to eat at a lunch counter, you ain't going to be served but you're going to take a seat at a lunch counter. Or maybe you would go to a shoeshine stand and try to get a shoeshine. They weren't going to shine your shoes. Or you would go to the restroom and try to use the restroom, and Captain Ray was with you every moment, every moment of the way, and the only words he would use he would say, "Move on." And in the next breath he would say, "You're under arrest." And he arrested all of us, and took us to the city jail in Jackson. And during the summer of the 1961, black appearing people kept coming to Jackson by way of bus, by way of train. You fill the city jail then they would take us to the county jail,

and when the county jail was full, early one morning, they decided to take the first group down to the state penitentiary at Parchman. I was in the very first group walking with James Farmer and others. You saw this line of people going down to Parchman. I never been to Mississippi before, I had never been to the delta Mississippi. It was eerie. They took us to the maximum security unit of Parchman State Penitentiary where you see all of this barbed wire. They stopped this van with black and white males, cause the jails are segregated. They don't put in the same jail cell not in the same unit, but they had us all together. And you get to this prison, a guard get out with his gun his rifle drawn

and he says something like sing your goddamn freedom songs now. We have niggers here that will beat you up or eat you up. Sing your goddamn freedom songs now. They lead us into a hallway, they had all of us to strip naked, had all these guys standing there without any clothes on. Was an attempt to dehumanize, to us rob us of innocence, of dignity, or any sense of pride. We stood there for more than 45 minutes, maybe almost an hour. Then they lead us to a shower, in twos, and if you had any facial hair, a mustache, a beard, they would give you a razor while you were taking your shower. You had to shave the hair off of you,

and after you finish your shower and shaving, they led us in twos to a jail cell without any clothing, a rifle drawn, on us. There was several men with rifles at this time and we stayed in the cells for more than an hour and a half, maybe 2 hours, then they came and gave us a pair of Mississippi State Penitentiary shorts and and a undershirt. That's what we kept [interviewer] Ok let's cut for a second. So in in some ways uh you know uh sending you all to Parchman was kind of an intimidating tactic. Parchman has this reputation of being the worse prison in the United States. And talk about how in some ways that backfired on Mississippi, that in some ways you all became more united. It forged this steel, it became what some people call

a university. So I guess the question would be what happened in Parchman? [Lewis] Parchman became a way out, not just a way in. We was not just locked up and we had moments there to learn, to teach each other the way of nonviolence, the way of love, the way of peace, the way of nonviolent direct action. They refused to provide us with books and papers, but I do remember being there as the man came by one day from the Salvation Army and he gave us all a Bible what it was the Psalms and the New Testament. I remember one of my old schoolmates wrote in the Bible "Given to John Robert Lewis

by a man from the Salvation Army on June something 1961." We read the Bible. We talked about Gandhi and his campaign in South Africa, his campaign to liberate India from the British. We talked about the role of civil disobedience, the great religions of the world, about what Dr. King had been all about, and what we were going to do when we got out. To engage in a massive campaign to get people registered to vote. We learn as much as we possibly could about the state of Mississippi, sharing ideas, sharing feelings, cause there was lawyers, there was ministers, there were rabbis, and teachers with all type of background and students from all over America that came to go on the Freedom Ride. So we learned from each other. It did become a

university. And because of the Freedom Ride, we were prepared to not just liberate Mississippi, but liberate the whole South. The state of Mississippi in 1961 had a black voting age population of more than 450,000; and only about 16,000 were registered to vote. And we wanted to do something about it. [interviewer] What was the reputation of Parchman Farm? you alright over there? you good? yes. seriously? what was the reputation of Parchman [Lewis] Parchman was known as the land that no man wanted to travel to it was known as the vicious and not friendly place for people. That they would send people out to do hard right backbreaking work in the

fields. But they were afraid to send us out to integrate us, to let us mingle with the regular prisoners, so they kept us in. and one Sunday morning, Ross Barnett, the governor of Mississippi at the time, and several other white officials came by like they were touring us, it was almost like we were in a zoo or something. And they would they would come in and just peep at us. We would sing our freedom songs, we would conduct church, we would pray prayers, we was determined that we wouldn't gonna let anything get us down. We kept the faith, we kept our eyes on the prize, and we would not give up, and they would not break our spirit. [interviewer] You just reminded me of something I wanted to ask earlier. Is

one of the things that Bull Connor says is that singing and that when he arrested you all the first time that singing just drove him crazy. Talk about about the singing and why, and what its effects would be on the jailers. [Lewis] Singing the music became a powerful nonviolent instrument, a powerful nonviolent tool, a powerful nonviolent weapon, and I often said without music, without the singing, we would have lost the sense of solidarity. It gave us hope in a time of hopelessness it brought us together And you can hear the young women singing and then we would start singing back to them, someone would throw out a verse, someone would improvise. And it created an

unbelievable sense "Yes we will make it. Yes we will survive." And that nothing but nothing was going to stop this movement, and sometime you would hear people singing and seem like the music was gonna just shake the jail. But you were marching through the streets of Nashville, through the streets of Birmingham, or Selma, or Albany Georgia, or Atlanta. It was not just singing outside, but also inside and and I think the music the words had a profound impact on the guards, on the jailers, and I think it had changed some of these men [interviewer] I want, kind of winding down I want if you had to say one thing,

and we're trying not to make a list when we talking about the accomplishments of the Freedom Rides. What was it, do you say, this was one of the unsung stories of the Civil Rights movement, one of the big stories of the Civil Rights movement that we really haven't investigated. What was it that that the Freedom Rides accomplished? [Lewis] The Freecom Rides of 1961 desegregated public transportation all across the American South. In a very short time, by the fall of 1961, those signs that said White Waiting, Colored Waiting, White Men, Colored Men, White Women, Colored Women, those signs came tumbling down. It ended forever segregation in public transportation.

So today when a young child or some older person gets on a bus and travels from Chicago to Jackson, Mississippi, from Washington DC to New Orleans, they would not see those signs. Those signs are gone, and they would not return. The only place they would see those signs would be in a museum, in a book, or on a video. You can sit anyplace you want to, and travel anyplace you wanna go, so long as you have the money to pay for the ticket. [interviewer] so in in some [Lewis] but it also it carried the movement It took the Civil Rights movement off the college campuses, took it out of the large cities, and took it to the small towns and rural communities. And it also changed the people that were on the Freedom Ride. The people that took

a seat on these buses, that went to jail in Jackson, that went to Parchman, they were never the same. [interviewer] Why is that important that these people were never the same? I think the idea is also that those people were changed and they went out and changed other people, and they went out and did other things. So it's not just that 300 people were changed, but that also they become a catalyst for more change. [Lewis] The Freedom Riders became change agents, agents of change. They left Mississippi, many did. Some went back, they became activists for voter registration, political organizing. Some went to southwest Georgia and created a movement. Others went to Selma, Alabama;

some went to North Carolina and South Carolina and created movements. and today there's a whole cadre of people that went out and taught others to be agents of change. [interviewer] And that came from the Freedom Riders? [Lewis] It came from the Freedom Rides because people saw what they could do in such a short time, that they can bring about victories. And they felt they could get other people to be participant in an effort to bring about victory, to bring about social change, political changes [interviewer] ok lets cut Lorenez you good? uh yes. I wanted to talk a little bit about the press conference tha- that you there's a video of you and Martin Luter King and I forget who else is there. [Lewis] James Farmer, Reverend Abernathy, and on the end of that photograph but I think she's cut off is Diane Nash someplace.

[interviewer] So at the press conference that you guys hold after the Montgomery siege of the church, where you say "We're going to continue." Talk about that conference. [Lewis] We had a press conference in the home of Reverend Ralph Abernathy, where we announce that the Freedom Ride would continue. It was James Farmer who had the idea of the Freedom Ride from the very beginning as the head of CORE. Martin Luther King Jr. and his colleague the Reverend Ralph Abernathy, Diane Nash, and myself we were determined that we were going to keep those buses rolling from Montgomery to Jackson Mississippi with our intention to make it to New Orleans. We had to do it. No act of violence, no threat from the Klan, of

the governor of Alabama, of the governor of Mississippi, could stop this movement [interviewer] ok lets cut for a second we still have 2 minutes left?ok One we got about Farmer and the dual things that he wants. [Lewis] James Farmer was a very dedicated and progressive leader in the Civil Rights movement. You know he had worked for the NAACP, and the founder of CORE, but CORE had been overshadowed by the NAACP, by Martin Luther King Jr. and he saw the Freedom Ride as a A means of making a strong statement saying this little organization based in New York can have a impact and happened to change the South. And CORE [Congress of Racial Equality] received a great deal of acceptance

and a great deal of support, but when CORE dropped the Freedom Ride and said it was too dangerous, as Bobby Kennedy had suggested, to continue the Ride they sort of lost control of the Freedom Ride. and when Diane Nash and the students from Nashville and the rest of us said we must continue the Ride, it became more of a SCLC [Southern Christian Leadership Conference] and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee [SNCC, "Snick"] and CORE effort. But we must never ever forget the role that Jim Farmer played. He was a wonderful man. He had a strong voice. [interviewer] Let me just cut cause we're going to run out in a minute. Let's just get room tones [cough] rolling everybody rolling room tone [silence]

[silence] ok thank you sir got it I think so OK OK he would get up he would he would get up and leave there's only one director in this world that I hate it's on actually so I'll keep quiet [chattering] they keep saying its everybody [beep] [longer beep] fb