American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with C. T. Vivian, 1 of 2

it is Interviewer: Talk about the, ah, Nashville students and the significance of their winning. Vivian: Yeah, when you, uh, consider that, uh, the Nashville students turned out to be a leadership of all of the organizations that were to follow. That makes their movement tremendously important. Uh, and I say "their," I was a student too, right, but the the, um, uh- we- we started because Kelly Miller Smith had organized a group of ministers, right? And, uh, uh, Lawson, Jim Lawson came in, and when he came to town, uh, he began the organizing of the students.

Teaching as basic to it, so that- there was a lot of teaching went on before there was ever any action. We hadn't- Interviewer: Let's cut. Yeah. Okay, let's try that again. [inaudible] Stay cut? No cut? Vivian: I can give it to you now. Is it, uh, Nashville students had been well-trained for nonviolent direct action, uh, and, uh, they'd already, uh- uh, opened the theaters they'd already, uh, uh- opened businesses downtown, uh, had, uh, gone to city hall, had- had the victory there, that opened the entire city, so that, uh, they are been

really involved, they had, uh, set up their own structure, uh, Diane Nash had become, uh, the-the director of our- of our group in Nashville, uh, and they were connected with the- with the total community. The mass meetings were brought on by the ministers, but it was basically around the action taken by the students, alright? So that they were involved in the community, they were involved in other activities, they were ready. Alright? Uh, and, uh, so then when the Freedom Rides came, ah we- we got the message ah from SCLC, uh, Jim Farmer had, uh, uh- stated that- that they were not going on to, uh, Louisiana because, it was- they'd proven their point that you could not ride a bus or a train or, any way to- that animals could, but people could not if they were

black. Right? And, uh, so he had said that they'd proven their point. It was at that point that, uh, uh- Diane Nash, uh, made the real important statement, uh- and when she called students together, and said that, uh, "We never, nonviolence will never give in to violence. And we will not be stopped because the buses have been fired upon." Right? And, uh, so, when the organization, uh, asked students to move from that night and about ten or twelve, uh, uh- took cars and, uh, went across the state line toward- toward- [Interviewer:] So my question is, is then so Diane Nash said that- that the nonviolence

should- can never be stopped by violence. [Vivian:] Great line, right? [Interviewer:] Why? [Vivian:] Ah. It is because part of nonviolence is to defeat violence. You see, it has to be understood, is that, uh, uh the defeat of violence is the thing that this society needs. Uh, is that, uh, if you can't defeat violence, you never can defeat war. Uh, you can never defeat poverty. You can never defeat racism. It's- these evils are kept going. By what? By the fact that violence is so destructive and noone stands against it. Because they are afraid to be hurt, or afraid to die, alright? And this is what we train people. We train them to- to die if necessary, but not to worry about being hurt at all, or being embarrassed, or somebody doing something to them. So we even train students ah to- uh, to have cigarettes put out on them, uh,

pulled off of, uh, seats and, uh, stamped in the floor, all sorts of things. Uh, so that they would already be ready for violence, hm? Because if you're not, then you're automatically- because of the very culture we lived in, and lived in for thousands of years, alright?- is that people immediately give in to violence unless they can be more violent. And that doesn't end violence. The real understanding is, how do you end violence? Violence is the enemy of a decent society. Violence is the enemy of the fulfillment of individual humanity. Alright? It's that there can never be the society that we want to live in as long as there isn't a way to end violence. What Martin King was about was teaching us how to solve social problems without violence. Until that was done, none of the great evils can be gotten rid of. You see, it's that

a good deal of what we call "evil" was never war, mm, not poverty, hmm? These were social conditions, uh, they are the outgrowth of the evil of man's mistreatment of man. Right? It's that we were being trained in non- violent direct action in order to make certain that those kinds of things could be set aside, be defeated, so that, uh, humanity would not have to be- put up with them. Not in some particular community, or not just the black people, alright? But- the- that they would be for- that we could defeat violence, then we can fulfill our humanity and the potential and possibilities of a true humane society. [Interviewer]: Free spirit. [Vivian]: Yeah. [Interviewer[: Yeah, okay. [Woman]: Cut. [Interviewer]: I have to say, though, if you start going too long- [cross-talk] [Vivian]: Yeah, I understand. I'll pull it to an end. I'll pull it to an end. Yeah, right. Something like that.

Sure. [Interviewer]: Okay. Um, One of the thing's that- that- that's fascinating is- is that, you know, obviously- as you were kind of talking about this before, and I don't wanna go into it- [Vivian]: Sure. [Interviewer]: -but, you know, I mean, my contention is, and I'm sure it's yours, is that- we have been in a civil rights movement since the first slave was brought over here. [Vivian]: Precisely right. [Interviewer]: And we're all part of the civil rights movement. [Vivian]: Sure. [Interviewer]: And- but my question is, you know, why at this time? [Vivian]: Ah. [Interviewer]: Why at this time- [Vivian]: Ah, I see. [Interviewer]: -did things explode? We're talking about 59, 60. Why at this time? [Vivian]: Well, there are a number of real reasons for this period, uh, and one of them is, we had just come out of a war where we were treated worse than the Germans that were perpetuating evil against entire world, as African Americans, we were mistreated. The- uh, uh- we could be in

charge of them, and still, they could eat in places we could not, and we could be in charge of them, but it didn't make any difference. Their whiteness was more important than the fact that we were of color. Right? Ah, So that you had all of these people coming back from the war, having been treated fully human in Europe, first time they had been treated fully human, not by Americans but by Europeans. Alright? It's, uh, so that they understood now what was possible, and what they didn't have to put up with. Furthermore, they had given their lives, alright, for other people's freedom, and why not for your own, right? This was terribly important. The, uh, other thing is, uh, uh- they had seen Christianity somewhere else, uh, uh- that respected them regardless. And they had to put up with the Christianity here, that was hypocrisy. Right?

Uh, and, uh, and they knew that, uh, they would no longer live with that. And would no longer, if the church, if the Christian church on the other side of town called itself Christian, we could just laugh and let it go, which our ancestors have always done, really. Alright? But ah, ah we now were in a new era within our own minds and hearts. That was the basic understanding. And we had young people, in particular, that- that- didn't have the responsibilities that adults had. This is one of the reasons that you had few adults willing to die, and suffer at that level, and ah- ah- but would allow their children to because they knew that was the only way of getting rid of it. Right? Uh- uh and you had to get rid of it. [Interviewer]: Great. Um- were you at- at- I wanna go back to the Freedom Rides. [Vivian]: Sure. [laughs] [Interviewer]: So before the Freedom Rides kind of get

to, um, to, uh, to Anniston and- and- before, you know, they get to Birmingham, you know, you were having troubles there, were you following the Freedom Rides, or people in Nashville? Were you following the Freedom Rides? [Vivian]: Well, not following it- would you mean, know what was going on? [Interviewer]: Yeah. [Vivian]: Oh, yeah, we were sending ah- ah the young people out. We were their back drop. We were their support service. Uh, they were not on their own, the whole community was with them. [Interviewer]: No, I mean, before you guys got involved. The first leg of the Freedom Rides. So the first part- you know, we talked about the different parts- [Vivian]: Yeah. [Interviewer]: -so the first part, going from D.C. to- [Vivian]: To Montgomery. Yeah. [Interviewer]: Were you- I mean, not following- [Vivian]: Oh, no. [Interviewer]: were you guys interested? Did you know- what are they talking about. Vivian: Oh, yeah. Interviewer: Did you know about the first part of the Freedom Rides? What did you know? [Vivian]: No, ah, we- what we knew was, that John Lewis had been asked to join them, alright? And they, uh, so that he

was with them, and he was- um- calling back and forth to various members of the group, alright? So that we were all keyed in at the mass meetings, see what I mean? There was a mass meeting every week of the whole community. We filled various churches, and we'd go from church to church, uh, uh- week by week. Alright? Uh, Kelly Miller Smith's church, uh, First Baptist Church, was the most important one. [Interviewer]: Uh- okay. So- you guys aren't particularly- I mean you know about the Freedom Riders, but you're not involved in the Freedom Riders. [Vivian]: Not- not in the beginning. [Interviewer]: Do you remember when you heard about the bus burning in Anniston? [Vivian]: I'm sorry. [Interviewer]: When you heard about the bus burning in Anniston, and you heard about um the beatings in Birmingham. Do you remember, you know, what what- what did you think? [Vivian]: Oh- uh, what I

really thought was, "This is to be expected." Right? Is that, uh, we knew, uh that- that these people were violent. We knew- uh, that, uh, that the color was more important to them than Christ, right? [laughs] We knew that, uh, we- so- so anything that could happen, we already had figured, as much as possible, and, uh, uh, so that the city got ready. Now, for instance, when I went was the next day or so after we flooded into uh- uh- uh- Montgomery. Alright? And, uh, went to jail in Jackson, Mississippi. [Interviewer]: I don't wanna hear that. [Vivian]: Okay, alright, okay. Uh, uh, but the- [Interviewer]: When we only have the- [cross-talk] Vivian: Okay. Yeah, but the whole community has great knowledge of it, and- uh- uh- and watched them move in their favor. And to do what they can to-to be of help. [Interviewer]: So- so you were not shocked- I'm sorry about that, that was

me- so you weren't shocked by the burning bus and the beatings in Birmingham. [Vivian]: Well, shocked by the fact that they really burned the bus, uh, but, we knew that something was going to happen, right? Uh, you see, you don't want to happen, but you're not all that surprised if it does happen, you're not trying to make it happen, but you- but if it happens, you know that it's possible. Uh, and so as a result of that, you're already ready for anything to happen. Uh, and, uh, are prepared for it. And [a] mass meeting was called immediately. And, uh, and people came to the mass meeting. And not because it was the particular night, but because it was an emergency. [Interviewer]: Uh huh. W- when was the decision made? You- for the Nashville people to- the Nashville students and others- to go and take up and continue the Freedom Rides. How did that happen? [Vivian]: Well,

uh, we got the, uh, we- we got the, now, see, you're- you're almost backing up, really, truthfully, alright, for your sake. See, because we- we got the message that there was a, uh, that, uh- uh, th- that, uh- um, uh, the- hold it for a moment. [Interviewer]: Cut. Vivian: Let me tell you, is that- Okay. When Farmer cut off- is that, uh, uh, um, Y.T. Walker calls me and uh, 'cause I was head of direct action, right, and we're having a telephone call across the street from one of the meeting places, right? And, uh, uh, so we tell everyone about this, but you also have John Collin, right? You also have, uh, uh, uh, Kelly Miller Smith, being- being called about this, who was the community head person over SCLC, right? Uh, the uh, so all of us

we're- we're aware. Now, by that time, however, Snick had- uh well the students- I should say, had a group of which they had chosen, um, uh, Diane Nash as the overall person, and, uh, and, uh, so we had both groups going at that time. When the students met, uh, was, uh, when they ended up sending, uh, uh, uh, three, or four carloads of students, uh, uh, to- toward Montgomery. Uh- [Interviewer]: Were you at that meeting? [Vivian]: Yeah, I was at the meeting. I was at the meeting. [Interviewer]: Sure. Vivian: I remember it because, uh, I saw it happen, and uh, don't mind talking about it because it was one of those pitiable moments- [Interviewer]: What happened [Vivian]: Is that, when we got the messages back, the meeting was called, right, and, uh, uh, students met themselves, right? and,

and, uh, we all went over all the stories that we had heard, what had been said, and Diane led it, and I remember Diane saying something was very important. Uh, because, uh, I had heard, uh, Jim Farmer, uh, saying that, uh- I heard him on radio- saying that, uh, uh, "We have proven our point." We- that- an African American cannot go across this country, uh, without having to change transportation, uh, uh, um, the way it was put, right? Now, the, uh, uh- and the violence itself let us know, because we were- nonviolence was the earmark of our movement, and Diane said, is that "We refuse to let violence destroy nonviolence."

Right? And, which meant that we had to go face whatever violence there was, right? Because otherwise, we could be defeated anytime anybody wanted to be violent, right? So, as a result about twelve students- well she asked- she took a break, and said, uh, just, go out- and it was at night- go out, and let's think about it for about ten minutes, and come back, and we'll make the decision, we'll vote it. ?Right?? Because everything was voted in the nonviolent movement. ?Right?? And, uh, and I remember going out under, into the darkness at night, under the stars, right? And the, uh- sounds, uh, dramatic- it wasn't that dramatic really, but it was- it's really what happened. And, uh, we came back in after a while. Now, when this was first said, there was a kind of agony in the room, because to

go to Mississippi was really an invitation to go to death. We knew that, because that's what it meant in those days. Uh, they killed black people in Mississippi without a second thought. Right? Uh, the um, police did it, everybody did it. Right? So- but we had to go to- we were to meet in Montgomery, and go from Montgomery, through to Mississippi, but the end result was Mississippi. And, uh, and so we came back in, uh, time was up, everybody came back in, the decision was made to leave that night. Right? A couple of us, as adults, could not leave that night, because we had family, and we had to go tell our wives. Right? So- uh, uh, and I was one of those, right? But before the bus left the next day, I was in Montgomery. Right? But I wasn't gonna leave without telling my wife. So I did

and, uh, then, uh, we got on the bus, in- in- in Montgomery. We were- well, first- first up, though, we went to a dentist's house in Montgomery, and, uh, then left the next morning. Alright. Interviewer: Let's cut. So you're in Montgomery, um- Vivian: Yeah. Interviewer: Tell me about those- that- those first buses that left before- [cross-talk] Vivian: Okay. We- we're on the, uh, we're in the, uh, restaurant there, and there's good photographs of us being in there, right? Uh, Jet had some, Ebony had some, ?several?. Then, uh, they- and we brought our tickets to, uh, Montgomery. Well- we were to get on the bus, we got on the bus, and the, uh, they had white people, uh, uh, had all-

moved all the white people up front. And- then we got on, and we took the rest of the bus, right? Uh, and we packed it, right? The, uh, then, uh, uh, uh, after we got on, the, uh, I wanna say marshal, it wasn't marshal. The, uh, state militia, yeah, the state militia, I think they called it the National Guard, uh, whichever one, and-- came and took all the white people off the bus, right? Filled the space they had, the first three or four rows, filled it with the National Guardsmen, right? With rifles, the whole works. And we get on, and then the bus starts, and we start out of the station, and go across country. Now, as we come to the Mississippi border, is when, uh, the- and I love the

picture, you see it on the front of- of Life Magazine, is that- the bus going and there's a string, a string of cars following it, like a tail of a kite, uh, uh, [laughs] and, uh, they stopped at the Mississippi line to change from Alabama, uh, Guardsmen to Mississippi Guardsmen, and they changed-- the reporters are trying to get us to, uh, to talk to them, alright? They're outside, we have the windows open. Well, we agree that Jim Lawson is to be the person that speaks to them. Is that, um, uh, and that magazine said something about the next week about asking for trouble and getting it, which showed they understood nothing about nonviolence, and, uh, Jim was teaching them about nonviolence out the window, not teaching, but answering their questions and giving them an understanding, a nonviolent understanding of why we were doing what we were doing. Then, the

Mississippi militia, uh, with the lieutenant colonel, or colonel of some sort, uh, is in charge, and he reaches over and turns up off the, uh, uh, the speedometer. Alright? And we take off across, uh, Mississippi, and you don't know how fast you're going, because it's begun- it's not working, and we take off across it, and we can see, uh, people on porches and so forth, and black people on their porches, when we were going through the black part of town, they're just waving, you know we're waving back. It was really tremendous, you know, folks sitting out on the porch like they normally do, and it was really a wonderful thing. Their hopes were on us, you know, and we were supposed to, in fact, do what we're doing, and to- and to make it so that one day their children, uh, wouldn't have to put up with what they put up with. It was all laid out there fully before us, right,

and uh, and we were in the very pit of segregation and racism and racial hate, uh, Mississippi itself, right? And we pull into Jackson finally, well, uh, I have a run in with the colonel, because I asked- [Interviewer]: Okay, can we stop? [Vivian]: Okay, yeah. This is- do you want me to tell this story? Okay, good. So, uh, these miles, and we didn't get off the bus at the state line, and-- we started immediately and it was moving through Mississippi. Uh, uh, uh, that people wanted to go to a bathroom. And there was no bathroom, and the colonel wouldn't stop, and so I uh, I encountered him about that, I was upfront. And so I encountered him about that, and, uh, we stood there and argued with each other, uh, uh, for, um, uh, for, uh, some time, eh, but I also

remember that there was a person or two in particular that, uh, uh, did urinate on the bus, and I was making that as a point of my attention to him, that you force us to live and do things below our sense of dignity, right, and then you blame us for it. Uh, that was a part of my, kind of, uh, uh, talk to him, as the, uh, and, uh, and, but, uh, it didn't do any good, right? [Interviewer]: Stop. Alright, we got somebody coming in the doors. Rolling. So you were speeding through Mississippi- [Vivian]: Yeah. Interviewer- and, um, and people are complaining. Vivian: I'm listening. Interviewer: Talk about what happened. Vivian. Yeah. And, there's complaint throughout the bus, that, uh, they haven't been to the bathroom, they're- the bus had not stopped to let us off, and- and the people had to urinate, uh, so, uh, uh, I confronted the, uh, colonel that was in charge of the bus about it,

who could have stopped the bus, uh, or stopped at the next station, uh, uh, et cetera, but, uh, would not respond, right, and he- he- so he and I have an encounter there, in the bus, the front of the bus, uh, about it, and, uh, he's telling me he's not going to stop, and I'm telling him why he should, right? Uh, the, uh, and then, uh, we, uh, uh, see, you don't want the details for this, though, right? Okay, good. [Interviewer]: What- what did you say to him? [Vivian]: Oh, oh, now, that's what I want. You want to know what I said to him. So the- basically what I said to him is, that you desire to- to cause us to act below our sense of dignity, right? You- you force us into this kind of situation, and then you blame us for it. Uh, this is the way that you order this whole society, that, uh, uh,

you make black people live below the- uh, the- uh, their- their humanity. And then you belittle us, uh, as though it was our fault, when- when it's you that created it, right? Uh- the, uh- now, this is all I basically remember of the conversation. [Interviewer]: What was his response? [Vivian]: Uh, he didn't! Really, he just, uh, you know, was- sit down! You know, and get back there, and all that kind of stuff, and I kept on talking to him. Uh, uh, but, uh, but then, finally, it didn't do any good. And so I just sat down. [Interviewer]: If you can say, whatever, "And he didn't respond," because my question isn't gonna be there. [Vivian]: Yeah. [Interviewer]: My voice isn't gonna be there. [Vivian]: Yeah, oh yeah. Is it- ?uh?, I'm with you. [Interviewer]: What was his response? [Vivian]: He stopped responding at all and just turned around, and, uh, uh, looking out the window. [Interviewer]: He said "Welcome to Mississippi?" [Vivian]: He didn't- he- he didn't even- he didn't- you know, he would say welcome