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I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. Mark Twain said in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things freedom of speech freedom of conscience and the prudence never to practice either. Try telling that to Senator Bernie Sanders the practitioner of speech and conference in December he belted out an eight and a half hour speech on the Senate floor. The filibuster took on President Obama's tax cut compromise. Sanders epic speech was both a tribute to the middle class and a condemnation of corporate greed. It was such a hit that the Web traffic he generated shut the Senate server down. The momentous monologue is now in book form. Senator Bernie Sanders joins us to talk about this speech its message and the impact it's made two months on from Congress to his constituents. From there it's dockyard Film Festival which kicks off this month. Up next freedom of expression from filibusters to fill. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Anti-government

protesters are being drawn to Cairo's Tahrir Square by news that all their demands will be met for more than two weeks their main demand has been the resignation of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak who is expected to address the nation within hours. The newly appointed secretary general of Egypt's ruling party host told the BBC what he thinks Mubarak will say but that people are critical. Probably the people the concrete watering hole of the next well what could an intrusion from missional follicle and the president probably erred in the election. But NPR's Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson says those gathered into rear square appear to be hearing something slightly different from military leaders. There's been a lot of cheering instruct us where we are and the location of these protesters. And it appears to be in response to an army statement that they will be protecting the people and they will be taking charge. There are reports that the army will be taking over.

This is of course a little bit different than what we heard from the ruling party general secretary who I spoke to and says that the power would be handed over to the vice president the vice president Omar Suleiman who was appointed to the post by Mubarak when the uprising began in the U.S. a number of people applying for first time unemployment benefits dropped last week to the lowest level in years it hasn't been this low since July of 2008. As NPR's Tamara Keith reports this appears to be part of a downward trend that started late last year. Three hundred eighty three thousand people applied for benefits last week. A dramatic drop and that has Jeff Rosen wondering if maybe the numbers are just a little too good to be true. He's an economist with briefing dot com. Given that we've had these you know problems over the last month and a half it seems very likely that. And there are some distortions in the data that may give us a little caution to start celebrating just yet. Even so he says the numbers are clearly moving in the right direction which is a vast improvement from we

were you know even three months ago. The less volatile four week moving average dip to four hundred fifteen thousand last week. Tamara Keith NPR News Washington. Prominent Republicans are gathered in Washington D.C. for the annual Conservative Political Action Conference which is likely to highlight a growing list of possible presidential candidates. Minnesota Congresswoman Michele Bachmann called on conservatives to Bill what she called a three legged stool to put more Republicans into office a fiscal conservative like the national security like and a social conservative like to work together we cannot run each other through 2012. Bachmann is considered a Tea Party favorite. The Dow's down thirty seven to twelve thousand two hundred three. This is NPR. Good afternoon I'm callin Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. My guest today is Bernie Sanders the independent senator representing Vermont. In December he gave an eight and

a half hour speech on the Senate floor which challenge President Obama's tax compromise. The speech went viral and the online traffic even crashed the Senate server. Here's how it all began. You can call it a filibuster you can call it a very long speech. I'm not here to set any great records or to make a spectacle. I am simply here today to take as long as I can to explain to the American people the fact that we have got to do a lot better than this agreement provides. The speech can now be read in its entirety in a book called The speech as Sturrock filibuster on corporate greed and the decline of our middle class. Senator Sanders will be in Boston this Sunday at Porter Square Books at 11:30 in a Jamaica Plain forum at 3:30. Senator Bernie Sanders welcome. Thank you. Good to be with you. Listeners were opening the lines this hour if you have a question for Bernie Sanders where at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70.

You can also weigh in on his filibuster. Did he speak for you when he took on corporate greed when he challenge President Obama's tax cut compromise. Do you wish more of our lawmakers were speaking out the way Sanders has. That's a 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Senator Sanders I want to know why was this an important thing for you to do. Well it was important. Because it was a I think a pivotal moment in terms of the direction of which our country goes here we have a situation where I think most people recognize middle class is collapsing BDM family income is down poverty is increasing. And yet the people on top of doing phenomenally well. We have a situation where the top 1 percent earns more income than the bottom 50 percent and the gap between the very rich and everybody else is getting wider. And on top of all of that we've got a huge national debt one and a half trillion dollar deficit. So you

have a pivotal moment. And how do you respond to that moment. Is the proper response for the president to kind of be giving in to the demands of the Republicans would say hey you know we have a huge deficit and a huge national debt. You know the rich are getting richer but we think that we should provide hundreds of billions of dollars more in tax breaks for the top. 2 percent. And we should also lower the estate tax which applies only to the top. Three tenths of one percent. And I thought it was important to focus on that issue because what I fear did in fact what is happening now is if you give these huge tax breaks to the wealthy. And if you want to move toward a balanced budget the only thing that our Republican friends can now do is savage programs that the middle class and working families desperately depend upon and start going up the Social Security Medicare and Medicaid as well. Well what was it like for you to do that when you approached the

podium to begin making this conversation did you have any idea that you'd be there for eight and a half hours to be very honest with you I had not a clue. I had made a promise that I would do everything I could to delay and defeat what I considered and considered today been an horrendous agreement. I have needless to say that I have a talk for anywhere near that long so if you want to ask me when I walk down to the floor when I be up there for an hour or two I was five I was 20 I was I would not have been able to tell you but. One of the things that I did not want to do is you know in past filibusters people would start reading from the phone book or start singing songs just to waste time. And I did not want to do I think that the reason that maybe that speech had as much residence as it did around the country is that people understand that the something fundamentally wrong within our economy today with the people on top but doing so well that everybody else is

doing pretty poorly. And the fact that I have the time to expound upon that in terms not only of taxes but of the terms of trade policy in terms of the pact with the only country in the a nationalized world but doesn't guarantee health care to all of its people. And to expound on a number of themes thats what I want to do and not just be a bit away stop. I want to let our listeners know that you couldnt sit down you can go the bathroom you had just keep going in order to be able to hold the floor so thats why you went as long as you could. That was eight and a half hours and listeners were speaking with Senator Bernie Sanders from Vermont where at 8 7 7 3 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We're talking about is eight and a half eight and a half hour speech he gave on the floor in December to oppose President Obama's tax cut compromise. One of the things that you did as you progressed is that you made your general point and then

you did if you will with interesting new facts as you went along. I'm thinking of myself. Would you have notes. I mean how do I mean. OK all right. We don't see what I have. Many of the themes that I touched upon are are things that I've been touching on for years but one of the things that I also then I've also been there is to tell you that there was less preparation going into this than you might have thought I had a very good staffer who was with me who kept handing me papers of speeches that I had given in the past and and statements that we had made and I read some books for example Arianna Huffington had written a very good book called America a third world nation where she talked about our crumble. And infrastructural problems with education. So I read a few pages from that and then went off on other tangents. Keep the thing that I did which was perhaps most interesting is over the years what I have asked of people in my own state is just to send me to email me their stories of what's going on in their lives in the

midst of a recession and we publish some of those in a book when I read some of them from people in Vermont you know who are really really struggling. Good people who you know may have hoped to have a dignified retirement with enough income coming in they have saved enough money up to working the whole lives and talked about what the recession did to them. Or stories from young people who are graduating college very deeply in debt and having a hard time paying off that. Those are words glimpses of reality that are not really often heard you know in the Senate in the media. We've all read a lot of statistics but sometimes we don't kind of put flesh and blood on to those statistics and that's what I try to do and I thought that. Was affective. Yes I would point out that one part of the speech that is now in this book you say I tell him I can tell my colleagues there are people who don't work one job two jobs there are people working three jobs four jobs trying to cobble together an income in order to support their families. I suspect that goes on all across the country. Well people are working harder and

harder in many cases their income is going down. The fact is this I thought was interesting. Eighty percent of all new income earned from 1980 to 2005 has gone to the top 1 percent. That's right. Everything you wrote is absolutely true in my state. You know we are a small state and a rural state and very often you know people just don't have one job where they go in from going to five. They may have two jobs that they have three jobs and sometimes people will work on weekends as well people working credibly long hours. And I thought it was important to make that point. And and the further point is that while people are working two or three hours and by the way I don't know if your listeners know that we in the United States work the longest hours of of any major industrialized country. You know in Europe people have for weeks paid vacation five weeks paid vacation. It is not uncommon in this country to get a new job where you may have one week because people work very very hard and yet.

All of this is going on in the middle class is collapsing. People on top are doing phenomenally well. And while it is true what you just read is absolutely true that 80 percent of all the income in a 25 year period went to the top 1 percent. It is also true. Is this not only of the top 1 percent but is doing very well to the top one tenth of one percent. So we have the top 1 percent now are earning about 22 percent of all income in America which is more than the bottom 50 percent top one tenth of one percent earns more than 10 percent. So that is the reality today and it is a reality that is not talked upon talked about very much on the floor of the Senate or in the media very much. And I thought it was important to make those points. Several things we should say is that while you were talking those eight hours lots of folks began to pay attention even though it was not covered by any major media Twitter followers were going crazy. Tons of donations were coming in. C-SPAN 2 carried live and people watched and commented your overall message is that

there is deep corporate greed going on while people are struggling I want to give our listeners a chance to hear another little bit of the speech that you gave the eight and a half hour speech in December. Here is an excerpt. And here is Senator Sanders taking on corporate greed and income inequality is greed is reckless uncontrollable greed is almost like a disease which is hurting this guy. How can anybody be proud to say that I'm a multi-millionaire and I'm getting a huge tax break and one quarter of the kids in this country is on food stamps. How do you be proud of that I don't know. Kevin from Jamaica Plain you're on the line with Senator Bernie Sanders Go ahead please. I haven't much. Hey how are you. I want to thank you for your show and I want to thank Sanders for what you could for us. It was very I mean it works can I teach in the in Austin a nonprofit group. And my coworker piece of keep me in. And YouTube and all of that and we just you speak from those

boys and we couldn't agree more. You know I worked several jobs and I'm happy to work. My mom worked very hard and I'm happy to work and I'm very proud of the fact that I have a 10 month old son and my fiance didn't have to work for the summer and able to be with him for most of that time but it's a struggle and it's hard and I think it's embarrassing to think of the ultra wealthy who are just unable unwilling to take to you to take their share take their cut and I think did it. I don't know what the moral compass is and I don't know how to sleep at night to be honest. Kevin thank you very much appreciate what you said and I agree with you in the issue of moral compass and what I try to say there on the floor is how much is. No I mean when we have kids we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country. Over 20 percent of our kids live in poverty. We have children who are living growing up in the back seats of cars moving around from one place to another place and you have people on top. These are you know

some of these hedge fund guys making billions of dollars a year and I think Kevin used the right word moral compass you know people are going to get rich that's fine but you know when is enough enough. Very good. Continuing our conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders from Vermont finessed Providence Go ahead please you're an eighty nine point seven WGBH Kawhi Thanks for having me on. Then call it all bull and if they're being available they have this discussion but the point that I wanted to bring up is you know I will look at all the that that's happening and one of the things that we really build bases with actually cough and it and that's who we are our whole system of of it is a monetary policy that we have in this country whether it's been on the capitalism they have in their We'll defend you know the misery which is pretty much making money out of money. Well if I have five million dollars in it but in this easy for I one percent I'm generating but $50000 a year basically for having money without

anything I'm not producing and I'm not bringing anything that's constructive. It's just simply making money out of money out of it. So where do we strike that balance. You know where we allow an individual run this monetary policy that we have or is obsolete. So we've introduced a new way. But people whether it's resources where everyone has the ball and you know have a society where we really don't have you wouldn't have a statistic. Thank you very much for the call often as that's an excellent question. It is an excellent question and let me answer it this way. One of the concerns which I talk about talked about on the floor of the Senate and I think this is relevant to the point that the caller is making is in recent years up to 40 percent of all profits made in the United States of America were made on from the financial institutions. And I think what the caller is asking is What do these guys produce. I mean all of a building automobiles are they

building bridges. Are they making shoes are they educating kids. And the answer is that to a large degree the financial institutions and I made the point in the speech as well that we now have four major financial institutions that control over half of the assets of our GDP. Any credible concentration of ownership and they live in this is I think the point the caller was making in a world unto themselves producing financial products which are not relevant to the real economy while the rich were getting richer. And Wall Street profits was soaring over a 10 year period all for tens and tens of 32000 as of our factories in America shut down. So we produce less as a nation harder to buy things made in America. And yet Wall Street produces in many cases as a result the worthless products which add nothing to the

value of our lives. And the caller makes a very good point about that answer is you need a new Wall Street whose function is to provide capital to the part of. The economy not be an island unto themselves. We're speaking with Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont talking about his eight and a half hour speech that he gave on the floor of Congress in December which has now been turned into a book called The speech a historic filibuster on corporate greed and the decline of our middle class. Senator Sanders what was the response from your colleagues. I mean I know you had a couple who came up to support you during the speech but I mean overall how did Republicans respond and how did Democrats respond because when the vote finally came there was a mixed response from Democrats right. Well most Democrats and that are voting for the Republican proposal. I think there was among the people who are sympathetic to the point of view that I'm advocating. There was a lot of support that appreciation. I got some wonderful phone

calls and some really supportive words but only in the Senate but in the house as well. And I think there was maybe a grudging respect from people who disagreed but just were impressed by my willingness to stand by what I believed in and do it for people as I was. Were you surprised by the kind of. Not just. Dizzy as to the kind of overwhelming response by people finding you on Twitter and watching on C-SPAN and responding and respond calling your offices. Golly I was blown away. I mean if you ask me that would be the surprise of it all and what ended up happening to Burlington for Bob. Well we have a major office and we have seven or eight people who work there. That's all anyone you know people do casework there's a lot of things on that particular day that's all they were doing is answering the phones. People here in Washington were answering the phones. The Twitter stuff was going crazy. I was Facebook was going nuts. And so the response absolutely blew me

away and it made me feel in a sense that there is a hunger out there for people to kind of hear are some ideas as to what is really happening in the lives of the middle class in this country that we don't. Talk about that much. I think we spend one time analyzing the offensive line of the New England Patriots patriots that we do. Talking about why the middle class is collapsing the gap between the rich and the poor is growing wider and I did that and people I think heard on the floor of the Senate that day ideas and facts which they often do not hear and I think that was an appreciation. For that. And I want to thank all of those people who called and I should tell you that I like about 99 percent of the calls that came in were very positive e-mails thousands and thousands of e-mails all over America not just. So I want to thank all of those people who responded positively. And I appreciate that. We're going to take another call in just a second but I I want to ask this question because for a

lot of constituents out here they complain bitterly that they don't feel that their representatives are representing that they will you know do everything to the political dance but they won't step out there if you will and this was for you stepping out there really to challenge him to continue challenging for eight and a half hours. What do you say to those people who are just kind of disgusted that it feels like they don't now do that. Why does not get heard but their representatives do. Frankly scared to say the tough stuff. Well you raise a very fundamental political issue and I would say to you that as a result of the Citizens United Supreme Court decision a bad situation today is likely to become much worse because the big money interests whether it's Wall Street or the military industrial complex or whatever insurance companies will now be able to spend huge amounts of money tens and tens of millions of dollars on campaigns without any disclosure whatsoever and I think many members of Congress also get There are afraid to stand up to the big money interests because

it's not only that you won't get campaign contributions from them but especially now what you're going to do if you stand up to Wall Street you know for Washington what a million dollars in a campaign you know put money into Vermont 0 0 or to Ohio any other state so. Members of Congress Oscar had been picking on the big money interests. The only antidote to that is they have a very strong grassroots movement from one end of the country to the other where people all telling members of Congress sit in the House who have the courage to stand up we have your back. Don't worry we will be there we're going to organize for you. We're with you but we need a strong grassroots progressive movement in this country that's prepared. To you know to fight the good fight to get rid of people in Congress who are not doing a good drop to work with those who won't. All right Dale from Westborough Go ahead please you're on eighty nine point seven. WGBH Hi thank you for taking my call first of all thank you Mr. Sanders. But you it is extraordinary that somebody could actually today stand up and they

would say I agree with everything in law and what the previous callers have said. And I also have been thinking for such a long time that if there were no other type of groundswell amongst the corporate leaders some of whom are probably maybe I have a pious guy idea but some of them do have a moral compass that is in the right direction and would stand up and say we are doing away with 10 15 I don't know what percent of their yearly income and their bonus. And employing people from that money I think the answer to our economy lies within that one are three quarters of a percent of the top wage earners who are also the corporate owners. And it's simple but it's not going to be. Thank you for that support I don't think it's going to be the total solution but I can tell you this that of Vermont and around the country that those like you have people who are very very wealthy people like Warren Buffett I mean these guys one of the richest people in the world and he says thank you very

much. I do not need a tax break. It's much more important that we educate our kids appropriately giving you know who's a billionaire B.Tech sprayed all the people have spoken our good president. Ben Cohen of Ben in jerks who said the same thing in Britain juries believe a lot of people there are dozens and dozens and dozens of big money guys who have a whole lot of money who understand that giving them tax breaks is not what we need to do we need to invest in jobs and in the future of this country. So I think you're right I think there are a lot of people who do. At the corporate level who do have a moral compass. On the other hand let's not be playing in the sky about this and let's understand that in Wall Street for example these guys lobby and lobby and lobby full bore tax breaks for themselves to protect what they have. And we've got to deal with that reality as well. Lister's We're talking with Bernie Sanders about his new book which is really the

compilation of his speeches eight and a half hour speech he gave on the floor of Congress. It's called the speech as Sturrock filibuster on corporate greed and the decline of our middle class. Bernie Sanders one of the things and the number by the way is 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8. I was interested in one of the pieces written about this historic moment really talking about not only those phone calls that we discussed in the Twitter followers but also the support that came in to you and for you for your future campaign. Right. Various websites have been set up one's called I Love This one is Bernie Sanders still talking dot com. I love that one and then one that I guess Howard Dean's organization set up called back Bernie Sanders which I think is great and you've done actually quite well from people who just sit and just small amounts of money because they wanted to support you. That's absolutely right. And in fact. While the election is still a long

way from today we have thousands and thousands and thousands of people who have contributed in Vermont across this country. You know they're not you know most cases because the vast majority of $30 to $50 a $20. But you say it's your question you write a lot of people that respond to our campaign website. I took your moment on the floor as being you know quite remarkable and we've talked about you know the response that you get and you're being blown away by it. I wonder because you've been in the Senate a long time. Well only in the sort of feel for you. OK. Well you've been there a lot. I wonder if you witnessed something in your time that you would have marked as kind of a moment in time as I believe that you were eight and a half hour speech was that you know just stuck with you that you know just remind you that there is still an opportunity to surprise and to engage folks who may think this government certainly this governance is boring but then I just get something happens and they kick in.

But you know in my years I've heard some very very wonderful speeches by a lot of great public officials and my old friend Paul Wellstone who I think many of the listeners will remember who represented Minnesota and they said it before is on time. But you know just very passionate about the problems facing working families. I gave some very great speeches. Another good friend of mine who is still in the House of Representatives John John Lewis of Georgia was one of the champions of the civil rights movement and certainly one of the best Ordos around and you know sometimes just to tears with his oratory. So over the years I've heard some you know wonderful speeches and a whole lot of support. We're winding down our town with our time with you. Senator Sanders but I think Lisa of Watertown you have a question that a lot of listeners may be thinking of asking themselves so please go ahead.

I thanks for taking my call. I so appreciate the service you both are doing. And I am curious as a frustrated taxpayer who would probably have money taken from me if things got you know I I am a comfortable person and would love to be able to just make a difference happen. I mean I understand the tax implications would mean something for me. But I agree with Warren Buffett and that's enough. Then how do I help make a change happen. Well I think if the United States government does because the site is I think a religiously because people don't need a tax breaks you know it's used that money to do otherwise would have paid in taxes to do productive things in your community and in your state. God knows the deeds are out there in a dozen different areas there are a lot of wonderful projects that are going on I don't want to choose it's in Vermont

and take your pick but I'm going to be doing with the proceeds of the coming for the book. Is is he was my money for childcare and children's related issues in the state of Vermont but there are a whole lot and it's out there the truck could use your help. Thank you so much Senator Sanders for your comments here today and for what you did on the floor of the house. It's one of those moments that I know people will be talking about for a long time to come. Well Kelly thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you. All right I've been speaking with Bernie Sanders the independent senator representing Vermont in December he gave an eight and a half hour filibuster on the Senate floor. And listeners I want to give you a chance to hear how Bernie Sanders wrapped up this epic speech. The American people stand up and say we can do better than this that we don't need to drive up the national debt by giving tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires. That if the American people are prepared to stand and we are prepared to follow them I think we can defeat this proposal. I think we can come up with a better proposal

which better reflects the needs of the middle class and working families of the country and maybe most importantly the children of our country. And with Madam President I would yield to. The speech can now be read in its entirety in a book called The speech a historic filibuster on corporate greed and the decline of our middle class. Bernie Sanders will be in Boston this Sunday at Porter Square Books at 11:30 and at the Jamaica Plain forum at 3:30. To learn more visit our website or log on to Porter Square Books dot com and Jamaica Plain forum dot org. Up next it's a look at the dockyard Film Festival. Stay with us. Come. Up. With.

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NPR station for news and culture. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show this month the dockyard Film Festival kicks off. It's a bi weekly documentary film screening series held at the Brattle Theater from February through April. I'm joined by one of the founders Sara. And Peter Gallo Scn He's a history of science and physics professor at Harvard University who co-directed the documentary film secrecy which will be screened next Tuesday at the Brattle Theater. Welcome to you both. Why are you here. Sara I want to start with you. Describe for us what dockyard Film Festival is all about how it came to be. Sure thing. The dockyard is actually a collaboration of the left foundation the Camden International Film Festival and principal pictures so it's myself Ben Fawley and Sean Flynn who are the principal programmers. You know it really just started the three of us are folks in the area who are dedicated to the

craft of nonfiction storytelling. And we just were getting together in a bar one day and said you know what our town needs. We need a forum for getting together and really talking seriously about the craft of documentary filmmaking. And to build a community around that there are so many amazing filmmakers in our community but the opportunities to gather together are rare. You know Boston has a long legacy and history in the documentary field. And we really wanted to find a way to celebrate that. So that's how we started the dockyard we wanted to really bring in films that Boston audiences were not seeing. And the point is actually to bring in more audience if you will not so much. I mean yes you want to reach out to filmmakers themselves but really the people who appreciate documentary films Absolutely and that's what's so amazing about this moment in documentary film is that it's no longer kind of relegated to the small screen or a tiny section of your video store people are really excited about nonfiction people are excited about hearing real stories in a way. I would say we're almost in a golden age of

documentary film we're seeing some really amazing advancement in the craft. So people from all over are interested I think. What we're trying to do is get people excited about the form. General audiences but also to form an a community around the artists as well. Now before I move over to filmmaker Peter Galson I want to ask you one more question and that is how do you decide what films are in the series. It's a fantastic question. Right now what we're curating the series so we're not accepting submissions. So the three of us and less exact less Foundation Executive Director lack of couth we all look at the films we've been seeing on the film festival circuit and also we've been looking at past films that maybe did not get enough of what we think enough of an audience in Boston. So for example in our current series we have several films we have two films actually where this will be. We're showing that the second screening in the US. So these are international filmmakers and then a film like secrecy like Peter and Rob's film where it was made a couple of years

ago but because of this moment of the week Wiki Leaks controversy. We said you know this is a good time to revisit that film and also get to honor some local filmmakers. OK. That's my guess. There are auction auction Archambault I'm going to get it out. Who's one of the founders of the dockyard Film Festival and now we talk to Peter Galson one of the filmmakers who's film secrecy is being screened. Up coming so you must be thrilled about this kind of venue to show your film again because it's there I just said it was done two years ago. It's great and I think that the three groups that have gotten together to found this have done a great service. And I agree very much with Sarah I think we're in an astonishing moment within documentary film you have many different kinds of films personal films films that use recreations films that use animation films that are more archive driven films that are focused on a single individual in films that take on big social issues and people

have found in documentary films a chance to have a kind of open common experience where they can talk about some of the big issues that face us as a country we don't turn to network television quite the way it might have been several decades ago as a single newspaper as the as the site for where our common experience and understanding is grounded and documentary film it seems to me is taking up some of that and given us a chance for people from different backgrounds to have an experience together in a theater or on television and then to talk about it and newspapers cover it. It's part of our discussion as we try to interpret what's happening around us whether it's how food is produced or what's happening in the war in Afghanistan beyond the headlines these. The variety of films is astonishing and the impact that they have on people's discussions and understanding seems to me very great.

OK so you worked with Rob Martz a film maker of some note to make the film. Secrecy and you know in your day job you're a professor of History of Science at Harvard so how did a professor of history of science end up working on a film about secrecy and tell us what secrecy are we talking about in the film. I had been interested in film as a way of getting at a side of history that isn't always what print does best to give a sense for the scale of things the physicality of the world the complexity of human interactions and I made a film about it called Ultimate Weapon with Pam Hogan. And we were interested in the debates over whether scientists should build a hydrogen bomb a bomb a thousand times more powerful than the atomic bomb. And when that came out in 2000 I looked around to see if there was somebody. In the filmmaking community around Harvard and elsewhere who might like to teach a course that would join together scientists people in

politics people in in history and and filmmakers to to use film as a way of bringing science politics and film together. So Rob was keen to do it. And we've been collaborating now for 10 years teaching and making that film and now we're making a new one. We felt very strongly at the time that secrecy although it's the most unlikely topic for a film since what are you going to show. Right. Yeah right. But but in a way the very act of making a film about something where you're forbidden to see was already an intervention to try to make secrecy something to bring real people they get caught up in it rather than commentators and pundits. We were into you know we were talking to CIA interrogators and NSA analysts and people who had been caught up in it because of a relative or they had been had been engaged sometimes quite against their will in the secrecy system as a way of asking this very basic question is

how do you have a deliberative democracy when big sectors of our world are off limits from knowledge. And so we began that way and we you know at first we thought it was going to be a question of more secrecy versus less secrecy and then we realized well. That really wasn't the deeper part of the question there was a second question which was How is information handled. Is it put into file cards and boxes and sequestered or what happens is the net and the web begin to change the way information flows both for the public and also for the government. And then finally we ended up thinking that really and this is where the film and says is the question of oversight. Who's going to watch the watchers who's going to who's going to How's that going to work. And it turns out interesting way that it's not just the public but even people inside the very large secrecy system that we have today in the United States and many other

countries that they care about oversight that oversight becomes important as a way of guaranteeing innocence or giving a chance for the government to be able to make a case and have people believe what it says. And that's true for the intelligence agencies as it is for any other part of the government. When when things are hidden under a rock for too long. People lose faith and they begin to make up their own stories about what's going on and it can be very destructive to to a democracy when that happens. Well listeners you get it you're getting a little sample of what kind of conversation you'll have at the dockyard festival because part of what they do is have a conversation about these films with the filmmakers after the films have been screened. So there you have it. When we come back after the break I want to give our listeners a chance to hear a little bit of your film. I'm Kalee Crossley and we're talking about the dockyard Film Festival with co-founder Sara Archambault.

And I'm also joined by Peter Gallus an who co-directed the documentary film secrecy which will be screened at the Brattle next Tuesday. We'll be back after this break. Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Elsa Dorfman Cambridge portrait photographer. Still clicking with the jumbo format Polaroid 20 by 24 analog camera and original Polaroid film online at Elsa Dorfman dot com. That's Elsa Dorfman dot com and from the classic group the classic group designs builds and renovates distinctive private residences with a mission to create historically inspired structures and spaces. To learn more you can call 7 8 1 7 6 1 twelve hundred. Or visit the classic group dot com and from the growing number of WGBH sustainers who manage their contributions to public radio with the help of monthly installments and automatic renewals. Learn more about sustaining membership at WGBH dot org. Next time on the world Mexican drug traffickers have worked their way south into Guatemala the

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NPR station for news and culture. I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just tuning in we're talking about the dockyard Film Festival. It's a documentary film series that kicks off this month and runs through April at the Brattle Theater. I'm joined by one of the founders Sara and Peter Gallus and he's a history of science and physics professor at Harvard University who co-directed the documentary film secrecy which will be screened next Tuesday at the Brattle. So Peter I watched the film and I was struck early on by many things and in the film but one of your interviewees says this is not the industrial age it is the information age which I thought was very important. So I wanted to give our listeners a chance to hear this particular clip from Pizza Prize winning Washington Post reporter Barton Gellman talking about the importance of a free press. In the documentary film secrecy if you published only what they really told you you wouldn't know that Osama bin Laden escaped from Tora Bora.

You wouldn't know that people are being seized on the street in foreign countries and taken secretly to prisons elsewhere in the world without any judicial process you wouldn't know that the US government is employing methods against detainees that it has previously described as torture. You wouldn't know many of the basic outlines of what the government is doing in the name of the war on terror. So when people have watched your film Peter are they surprised by some of the things that they hear which is of course the point of the documentary but I think there there is a lot of surprise people are and I think people identify with different figures in the in the film. There's a journalist Barton Gellman who's done remarkable work and remarkable work with respect to secrecy and bringing things out that hadn't been exposed before. And then there are people who you know a CIA

analyst a woman who's worked as an interrogator for a long time for the CIA and she she doesn't hold the positions always that you might think. And people are surprised by that. And there's a story in the film about an airplane crash that was made secret in its in the investigation of why it happened by by the Air Force and the families of the people some of the men who were killed who are civilians have been flying in the plane. Try to figure out what had happened and they wanted to see the accident report and that report was finally the Air Force said well it's secret you can't see it. And it went all the way up to the Supreme Court they told the Supreme Court it's so secret you can't see and this is the height of the McCarthy era and the Supreme Court said you're right we shouldn't. And so without looking at what was in the content of that report it was left classified it was called the Reynolds decision the Reynolds case. In the early 50s and and that became a precedent a kind of super precedent that has been used over and

over again and many many more times in recent in recent years in the war on terror. And so people are surprised that the very origin of some of our arced are secret protocols today in the way things function in court are actually based on a case back from the 50s. And when the report finally did come out there were no secrets in it. And I want to let our listeners Here's a clip from the film speaking just as your point. Here's a clip of American Civil Liberties Union attorney Ben why is not discussing State Secrets Privilege a law that allows the government to withhold public information that has been classified as sensitive to the country's national security. The state secrets privilege was established with a lie and has allowed the government to tell the same kinds of lies over and over again. But what's so striking about the way the State Secrets Privilege is being used now is that the government is using the state secrets privilege as an immunity doctrine. And so it's not waiting until a point if it asks for information. It's coming in as soon as the case is filed and saying effectively this case cannot be adjudicated.

Now there's been wiser saying that but in the era of in the time of Wiki leaks if you will as Sara mentioned earlier there are a lot of folks who might have originally said Oh yeah yeah yeah we don't need to do that now or saying you know that Julian Assange ought to be you know prosecuted. I mean he's a traitor What is he doing here he's putting us in danger. It's a different it's an interesting conversation has many angles to it. It isn't and you know I think that one of the tricky things with the Rick Wiki Leaks is to ask people for to for us to ask ourselves as a society what where is the difficulty. I mean is the problem that Private Manning released you know took these while he was pretending to listen to Lady Gaga or was the problem that the executive branch didn't. Properly take care of the secret so that a private first class had access to the entirety of these this vast trove of classified cables.

Is Assange a journalist is he not a journalist because what because he's not licensed as a journalist we don't license journalists in the United States so what counts as a journalist. Is he a traitor Well I mean is what he signed up for. We don't have a state secret we don't have a official secrets act like the British do where a journalist can be prosecuted whether or not they have signed an agreement it's simply it's considered theft of the Crown's intellectual property. But we don't we don't believe that here and we think that journalists as long as a journalist is not acting in exchange for money to give advantage to an enemy of the country you can't prosecute under the espionage acts. So the idea people may be frustrated and angry and they may and they may not like Julian Assange and all that may be true but that doesn't mean that he can simply be prosecuted as a traitor or as having violated a secrecy agreement which he'd signed because he'd done no such thing so I I think it's I think one has to distinguish between

one's own happiness at the release of certain cables which caused embarrassment in American foreign relations and perhaps worse in some of the military things that were disclosed about people that may have been informing American troops. Of affection for me giving them intelligence information but I think one has to distinguish anger from the law and we don't we don't we don't treat journalists that way we don't treat journalists as if the secrets of our country are the property of the United States and to publish them puts you in a position of being subject to the Espionage Act. That's not how the Espionage Act functions. I want to get you into this conversation before I give our listeners a chance to hear another clip from the film. And that is to say that all of the kinds of issues that Peter has raised here are substantive ones. But the film is not an eat your spinach. No I just want to make sure that people understand the documentary doesn't mean boring. Absolutely and in fact more now than ever documentary does not mean boring.

I think the great service that filmmakers that like Peter and Rob do for us is that they take these amazingly complex notions and in fact you were mentioning how we're in the age of information. Some might say we're in the age of too much information where it's hard to find the time in you know you're a working person I'm a working person to really get to study these ideas and understand them with depth and clarity. And what Peter and Rob have done with secrecy is take a lot of these complex notions. There's basically doing the job of in-depth journalism in a time when journalism when major papers don't have the money or resources to do this kind of research. And they're making these ideas simple for you and I don't understand. And to think about and just take a small amount of our time to think about and then at the dockyard to discuss. I think that's one of the most exciting things that we're able to do. I don't as much as we are in a moment of Facebook or social media I don't think

anything really replaces the face to face conversation. You get that a lot with your listeners calling into the show. We get it with the public audience at the dockyard and I think I think the service that these filmmakers do for us is being able to take us on journeys to places that we aren't able to go and with a short amount of time it takes to dedicate to a film. You're able to. Think about those places too. Journey with the characters and to understand these complex concepts in in a in a way that makes sense to you. And that's I think their gift to storytellers and the other thing I wanted to put on the table for you to address as well. Sara and maybe Peter you might want to weigh in. Is the fact that when I think about your film secrecy I think maybe inside the smartest guys in the room in the mold of those kinds of films but documentary today has so many different formats so can you speak to that Sara. Absolutely I think you know we for the dockyard we actually try to balance a lot of

those different forums over the course of our series. We do. We really are excited about the personal documentary people who are going on personal journeys that they share with their audience. Margaret Brown's film the author of the order of myths which is going to be showing in April is very much along those lines. We also do investigations. There's something a little bit more fun like David wants to fly. There's this film that film are showing on March 15th the David King is the filmmaker there and he's doing an investigation into Transcendental Meditation particularly through its foremost proponent David Lynch and that film while it investigates a very serious topic is very whimsical and very fun. And because the filmmaker puts himself into the story you're getting a little piece of his private life too so as much as we're looking at Transcendental Meditation we're looking at his relationship with his girlfriend. So again it's you know documentary can be really fun and

playful. It can be very serious and studied. It helps you think about war. It helps you think about marriage and children. And I think we show a balance of all of those different things over the course of our series. What do you want people to take away from your film. Peter when they come to see it. Well I mean I think that in addition to the specific questions about secrecy that we've been talking about I agree very much with what Sara was saying that the documentary is engaging. I mean there's a way in which now we have films that are that you know that pull you when they're using you know we're not afraid to use music and and animation animation your film is great. Yeah. Yeah there's this black and white animation that by Ruth Linford that's amazing and it carries you past. One of the things about secrecy that really struck Rob and Rob Morse and me when we were making it was that secrecy is never just about file cards or secret documents or invisible ink it's always about how much more and that even the people who are at the heart in the heart of the

system know that secrecy has echoes of authority. Biblical secrecy of sexual secrecy of personal secrecy of what relationships are privacy in government secrecy have I mean there's there's a way in which secrecy for everybody always is more than itself and that in a way is something the documentary film can do well with because we can use the music in the animation and art works and storytelling as a way and the people the relatives of people that have gotten caught up in this. All right. Thank you Peter thank you Sara. We've been talking about the dockyard Film Festival with co-founder Seraj Timbo. We have also been joined by Peter Gallivan. He's the Pellegrino University professor of history of science and physics at Harvard University. He go directed the documentary film secrecy along with Rob Maass secrecy screens next Tuesday February 15th seven o'clock at the Brattle Theater in Harvard Square. To learn more visit our site or log onto Brattle film dot org. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley

follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the Kalak Rossley show on Facebook today show was engineered by Jane pink and produced by Chelsea Mertz and white knuckled me and Abbey Road. We are a production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station for news and culture.