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I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. Joe DiMaggio said a bowl player has to be kept hungry to become a big leader. That's why no one from a rich family ever made the big leagues. But these days it could be said it's only the rich who can watch the big leagues. A poll of baseball fans says the biggest problem with the major leagues is the price. Since the 1920s bleachers have been the meeting ground for people of all classes and backgrounds. But today with new fangled stadiums and steep ticket prices we're talking up to three hundred fifty for a family of four to get Fenway folks can afford the ballpark. Instead it's the minor leagues where fans get their fix parking's free francs are cheap and the price of admission is under 20 bucks from baseball it's local made good with R&B singer Noel Gordy. Up next baseball and the blues. We are swinging and singing. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Forecasters

closely tracking flood threats in the south are warning the Mississippi River is likely to crest at Memphis tonight. A lot earlier than predicted. Eleanor Boudreau of member station WKNO reports the river has forced hundreds into shelters and police have asked more than a thousand people to get out of their homes before the flooding. Herbert Williamson used to go to downtown Memphis every day to walk along the banks of the Mississippi. The park he walked through near harbor town on Mud Island is now underwater harbor town is one of the more affluent neighborhoods in Memphis. But water from the Mississippi and its tributaries has affected rich and poor alike. Williamson lives in North Memphis in one of the poor communities in the city. I say in a free Thomas he walks with the words It flew in real bad. Williamson is 63 years old and he's lived in Memphis all his life. I've seen really good have. But I've never seen a flu like this in my life.

The Big Muddy hasn't been this big since 1937. For NPR News I'm Eleanor but drove in Memphis. Officials have started evacuating a prison north of Baton Rouge Louisiana. The State Penitentiary is bordered on three sides by the Mississippi River. The prime minister of Pakistan is rebuking Western critics who say the government was either complicit in keeping some of bin Laden hidden for so many years in Pakistan or just plain incompetent. Yousef Golani says bin Laden's ability to elude capture since the 9/11 terror attacks stemmed from a globally collective failure. Yes there has been an intelligence failure. It is not only ours but of all. The indebtedness agency is not the one Illinois addressing Pakistan's parliament today as the government seeks to further distance itself from al Qaeda. Bin Laden was killed two weeks ago in a US military assault on his compound in Pakistan. U.S. and Chinese officials are in two days of annual meetings in Washington. NPR's Paul Brown reports the scope of the talks is expanding and observers expect military

issues economics and human rights to be on the table. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton puts it bluntly as she opens the talks between two major powers whose relationship is mutually beneficial in many ways but often uneasy. We seek to build a stronger foundation of mutual trust and respect. These talks started back in 2006 focusing on economic issues then adding foreign policy this year military leaders from both countries are taking part. Chinese officials say with Congress wrangling over the debt limit they worry about U.S. commitment to pay its bills. The U.S. says it wants China to value its currency more fairly and China's human rights record will almost certainly be discussed. Paul Brown NPR News Washington. Dow's up 56 points to twelve thousand six ninety five. This is NPR News. Researchers say they have found evidence that autism is far more common than most studies so far suggest. NPR's Jon Hamilton says the latest data come from an exhaustive study of a city

in South Korea the city is going young not far from Seoul in 2005. A team of researchers from the U.S. and South Korea began studying 55000 children between seven and 12. The goal was to identify every child with an autism spectrum disorder. So instead of focusing on kids in special education or with known disabilities. The team sent a questionnaire to the parents of all kids. Then they did in-person evaluations if the answers suggested autism. The result one child in 38 was found to have some form of autism. That's 2.5 times the estimated prevalence in the US. But the researchers say that's probably because a lot of kids in the US who have autism still aren't being diagnosed. The study appears in the online edition of The American Journal of Psychiatry. Jon Hamilton NPR News. The two billion dollars in rail development money Florida turned down is being awarded to Amtrak and rail services in 15 states. The Obama administration issued a statement today

saying about 800 million dollars of the funding will be used to upgrade train speeds along the northeast corridor. The high profile murder trial of Casey Anthony will be held in the Tampa area. Florida authorities waited until early today to announce a location because of the intense interest in the case of a woman accused of killing her daughter Caylee. The defendant could get the death penalty if convicted. More than 600 media credentials have been requested. The jurors could be sequestered for up to two months. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the Park Foundation dedicated to heightening public awareness of critical issues at Park Foundation dot org. Good afternoon I'm callin Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show this hour we're

talking about baseball with it costing so much these days to take in a major league game with the average price of a Red Sox ticket on the secondary market hitting one hundred seventeen dollars. What are some of the cheaper alternative options for baseball fans. Later we're going to have my guests join me right now we're having some major technical problems but let me tell you who they are. Carlin home assistant professor of American studies at Middlebury College and Steve Hyder. Announcer for the POS ox in Pawtucket Rhode Island and the PASOK for Triple-A international minor league affiliate of the Boston Red Sox. So we have to have them on the line soon. In the meantime listeners we want to get you in on this conversation. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 0 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 0 9 7 8. When was the last time you went to fin Wei park are the major league prices out of your league. And let us know where and how you get your baseball fix. 8 7 7 3 0 one eighty nine seventy eight

7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. Also curious to know from you who are your baseball heroes. Anybody who listens to me regularly knows I'm not a big sports person so you know maybe Hank Aaron for me I know that name and a few other names like that I could put on the table but Red Sox. OK I know I'll get a lot of heat for this. I don't really follow sorry. I know they're important and I watch the furniture commercials when they're getting close but that's about it for a base but I'm interested from your listeners who are your favorites and more importantly when was the last time you went to Fenway Park. I have to say for myself that even if it's something that I'm wildly interested in. One hundred seventeen dollars even on the secondary market is a lot of money. And what we learned from a special investigative report not long ago done right here in Boston is that some of the way that the attendance is calculated by Major League Baseball is really quite odd. So you hear that the game is sold

out. And really what they're counting is number of tickets sold not necessarily numbers of people in the seats. So as I was talking to a big fan of RIT Red Sox baseball this morning one of our engineers he said to me I go to the games and you know I don't see I don't see as many people as I thought would be there. So it it's really quite daunting and I am thrilled that one of our guests is on the line. Professor Lynn Thomas assistant professor of American studies at Middlebury College and a baseball expert. Welcome. Thank you very much Kelly. I'm glad to have you I wanted you to just set the table I was trying my best to talk about why the attendance at Major League Baseball games going down the cost certainly is one reason. What would you say are the reasons. Well I mean assume that that's a fact that attendance is down. It's early in the year. There are weather factors but I would I would attribute it to the economy. I don't see a precipitous decline in interest in

baseball at the major league level. You know we have some wonderful wonderful stories already going on in the game today. I worked in Cleveland for six years so I'm excited about their resurgence. So I don't I think there are some structural issues in baseball but there are ongoing. So I don't see I don't go I don't look at it as a particularly alarming issue these days overall. If you don't mind Overall I'm surprised baseball has been as resilient as it has I mean given the nature of our culture and our society and how fast paced it isn't. How deliberate the game of baseball is and how dependent upon tradition it is exhilarated that baseball retains the position culturally that it does. I'm excited. Well and we'll get into that more I will tell you that according to their to their own numbers the Major League Baseball. They're down overall for the fourth consecutive year. And guess where there's a place where it's not so much down. Boston I know sort of a two

percent change or something I mean you know that's that's about 650 sell outs in a row. Yeah so you know it's hard to say that from this from this vantage point it's true. Exactly. Professor Linda I'm going to take a call or Jane from Stow. Go ahead please you're on the Catholic cross show how I just wanted to call and say how much fun my son you are seven and eight years old and our family had last year at the Cape Lee baseball game there already. And bear. You're so close to the action. And last summer we watched while you strummed brand break up a no hitter in the ninth. It was it was amazing. Wow. So now are you a person who's turned away from Major League Baseball or you just never went and you just find minor leagues much more interesting. Well we we would love to go to spend way every day but we can't do that. You know my son play little league and they we just we just go when we can we go the prospects game and we try to make one trip a year to

Fenway. But last year we got a lot of our games. Well if you don't mind my asking when you take your two sons and yourself to Fenway what's the total cost of that. Well I try not to add that up but it it would be you know north of $400. Wow wow. Well I tell you that's that's enough for me. Thank you very much for calling in Jay. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. There you have it. Professor Linde um a lot of people are making a decision with their feet because they can afford those prices. Well I think professional sports in general are terribly high priced but she made a very interesting point if I personally this year will probably attend 50 games. But I'll probably only get to Fenway once. I'll go to Cleveland for a couple of games and visit friends there a part

of Red Sox Nation. But she made the point you go to Cape Cod leave the Cape Cod League of the stars of tomorrow. It's a wood bat league of college players. They play in the same stadiums they've played in for half a century. It's the same base if you're if your great grandfather walked into one of those those parks in the kit they pass the hat walked into the one of those parks. He would see the exact same game the uniforms would be a little different but he'd see the same game he saw in the 19 teens and 20s and 30s. Wow. She's look she's in from Stowe Vermont I'm of course in Vermont to right up the road from Stowe is a wood bat college league in Montpelier. Just down from St. Burlington is minor league baseball. And when I say to my friends who get disappointed or disgusted with the money that gets me. Turn around in baseball and other professional sports as I say when you get to a solution go to a game go to a high school game go to a college game.

To me that's where the action Popham is and I watch a hundred Red Sox games a year on TV with my 15 year old son so the in-person experience though for the major leagues is it's really you're moved away from that. You're going to games outside of out of town to get that in the bleachers feeling. Well I can't get tickets to the Fenway Park they're sold out. I can get tickets in Cleveland and Baltimore these beautiful stadiums watching the Red Sox and probably half the park will be other Red Sox fans. So to get some experience but just a little cheaper and a little yeah I can score three games in Cleveland for what I can go to in an Fenway Park but I guess my point is that I know Major League Baseball is a business and but if you like the game the game is. I mean if you're in Boston just head over to Lowell and watch the single A Little Red Sox play. And there are little spinners I'm sorry and that's a wonderful experience and you can do it for 20 bucks. All right. So I mean but I

know I understand your point and I think it's a problem. People seem to be willing to bear the burden of those costs. Well and I'm going to talk to our caller Suzanne from Born who is willing to bear the price. Suzanne go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show. I Cally. I'm actually I'm actually working right now but I heard the conversation I had to call in because I actually was at that one yesterday for Mother's Day my mom was a huge Red Sox fan and she passed away a year ago and I thought you know that the deciding factor for me was that's what she would want to be on Mother's Day. So it was a great game it was beautiful. We got to get out and walk around the field I mean it was just priceless. And you know we we paid but I think it was me and my son we paid about $70 for a ticket. I mean all together and to me it was well worth it for that but we do hit up a lot of Cape League games also we see that more and graze all the time and that's also you know free and some great baseball but you know try to get it done way more than once a summer but it's a struggle you know. Well $70 that sounds like a deal for

Fenway and what about parking What about food total after all of that the total is probably about a hundred we could be key in and then you know we had to buy some food I spent 20 to 50 out of it and it really wasn't a lot of food and you know I had my six year old with me and what are you going to do. I mean it's just one of those things like when you're going to find a way you know what's going to cost but it's worth it for the experience and you know. To get up there at least at least once a year is just you know they'd be kind of have you coming and going but you know I'd love to talk about. It was worth it. So Suzanne so yeah it sounds like you agree with Professor Lindemann that the era of baseball is not sort of diminishing as some have suggested I don't think so and I kind of came into the Red Sox thing a little bit later I become a fan until about 2002. And I went to school in Boston I lived right down the street from kind of a park. I had no interest in going. And now it's like I mean I'm like a rabid fan I listen to sports radio when I'm not listening to NPR and it's you know it's something especially when everything's going so bad

in the world it's like baseball is there and it's not political and it's always the same. You know it doesn't matter what's going on no. Well he can kind of get away for a few hours and just watch the game and I think maybe end up on the only one that feels that way but that's kind of how I feel about it. Professor Linda do you want to ask Suzanne a question. Well I think yeah. I think I think that's a very it's higher agreement with her. The interesting thing is the era of baseball has diminished there's no question about that. For the 100 years after the Civil War baseball had an enormous cultural appeal it had no rival football wasn't big basketball wasn't big boxing maybe had a crowd. Baseball was everything until well after World War Two. Now there's such competition for our interests. And such competition for our interests and playing to a human you know in the African-American community baseball has his participation has declined precipitously. So baseball is no longer the

national pastime. But as I say I I'm still happy at the extent to which it's played as a baseball fan and find as I say find it remarkable that a game so out of sorts or out of phase sort of with the temper of our times the fast paced society we live in you have this deliberate kind of pastoral game still still attracting the people the way it doesn't still have the numbers that we have in little league. The game is so hard to hard to play even here in the northeast. So hard to play because it rains all the time and snow. I mean so. Yes so I'm astonished that it's as popular as it is given our cultural given our given our culture and the nature of our culture would seem so inimical to the kind of game that baseball essentially is. All right. Well thank you very much Suzanne and Professor Lindemann. Stay with us we got much more to talk about. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3

0 1 8 0 9 7 8. We're talking about baseball and how the new fangled stadiums and steep ticket prices are keeping so many fans locked out of Major League games. Listeners who want to hear from you. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8. Are the days of your grandfather's baseball over and you turned in your major league card for the minor leagues for the Lowell Spinners the passant. Tell us how the American past time has changed and African-Americans. Are you still interested now past in. The third heyday of the Negro Baseball League. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 0 9 7 8. Back after this break. Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from the Joan in James Vernon Cancer Center at Newton Wellesley hospital. Proudly supporting NPR's ALL THINGS

CONSIDERED. Heard weekdays from 4:00 to 6:00 pm here on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. And from Boston Private Bank and Trust Company. Boston private bank provides private and commercial banking and investment management and trust services to individuals and businesses. You can learn more by visiting Boston private bank dot com. On the next FRESH AIR the rise of Hitler through the eyes of an American ambassador Eric Larson's new book is about William Dodd who went to Germany in 1933 at Dodd's second meeting with Hitler Hitler explodes and he says you know that all the the criticism of Germany is coming from and inspired by Jews and that he if it continues he's going to make an end to that. Join us. This afternoon at two on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. It's the forty sixth annual WGBH spring auction. Now

you can support public broadcasting and get some great deals while you're at it. And right now you can place your bed on a six day five night trip to Greece generously donated by the Greek National Tourism Organization and this group of historic hotels are Greeks. She all the items up for bid at auction. WGBH dot org. WGBH reporter Philip Martin joins a new generation of Freedom Riders retracing the 1961 bus journey through the Deep South. Hear his reports from the road. Mornings and afternoons. All this week here on eighty nine point seven. WGBH here. I'm Kelly Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show. If you're just tuning in we're talking. About

baseball this hour with a focus on how Major League Baseball as a billion dollar enterprise has gotten too far past its roots. I'm joined by Carlin dome assistant professor of American studies at Middlebury College. And we're searching for our other guest Steve Hyder who is an announcer for the POSIX and Pawtucket Rhode Island. He's missing in action right now hoping he'll show up. The boss ox our triple-A international met minor league affiliate of the Boston Red Sox. But we do have you listeners and we're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Baseball fans call in tell us what lengths you go to to take in a major league game. What minor league teams do you follow. And if baseball doesn't do it for you tell us what sports do. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. So Bill from Milton Go ahead please you're on the Cali Crosley show. But after knowing what a very timely show only because the strong. As I looked at the box scores which I do want to regular basis I realize this is

very typical by the way. There might have been 15 or 16 major league games yesterday and if you look at the box scores they always set the attendance and the attendance they have the total number of seats at the ballpark. And I think what we're talking about today is basically there's only two reasons why prices are high in certain ballparks. Number one the success of a team obviously And then number two the economics of the city that they're in. If you notice just city block School professor the OC Philadelphia Boston San Francisco because they won last year on head capacity crowds yesterday that was it. Everybody else had less than capacity and I would say that at least 10 of the major league games yesterday had less than 50 percent capacity in this stadiums so the pricing in the stadiums obviously does not even come close you already spoke about Cleveland to approaching the price of going to a game in Boston or are Philadelphia or New York so I think some of these shows

and it would no disrespect to the subject. It's a it's a matter of where we're talking about. Yes class time. We all know that. But basically costs are much higher in successful higher income cities. Oh well that's a good point. Thank you very much for the call. Professor what do you say to that. No I think he's absolutely right. I think you know when a team is nothing like a winning team to bring the fans out and I think where you have a combination of you know you may have a beautiful stadium in a place like Seattle which is perhaps the most remarkable physical structure in the game and the fans are not particularly coming out because the team just hasn't been very good for the last few years. If Cleveland could maintain this fast start will be very interesting that's a wonderful baseball town in a relatively new stadium. It will be wonderful to see if the fans come back with the success of the team but I think he makes a good point. All right. Matt from New Hampshire Go ahead please.

I met the little league Babe Ruth Little League and Babe Ruth. Yeah those that's. That's about school college. The school board because of several reasons one did in nonsexual discriminatory. So you're saying that's where you should go if you're a baseball fan. Just you know little league and high school. And the food's always great. All right you know what. You have a point there. I have to agree with you on that one. And it's kind of fun because you usually if you're attending a Little League game or a high school game you know somebody. So that makes it more interesting I think got. And they play with hearts and guts you're quite right. Thank you so much Matt. You were the call Professor They play with hearts and guts and high school that really is. Well I agree that was my point earlier is a. You know when you get disillusioned with the money and sports go to a game go to a game where the kids are playing just for fun

there's no steroids there's no nobody's getting paid they're just having a good time and an eye that always restores my love of the love of the game I have two kids now in high school and they both play sports and I couldn't be couldn't be happier so now I think there's a lot of amateur baseball around and again the thing that's unique about baseball is is it's a long history it's the same game that we've played for so many years and it's just a wonderful wonderful enterprise and as I say it's the problems that are at the major league level at major league level certainly effects the way people respond to the game. I mean it's wonderful to be a fan of the Red Sox when things are going well but if you like the game itself Boy it's a it's. I think the caller is right. It's fun to go to a game with the motivation is so pure. All right well Professor we we couldn't find Steve hire who was an announcer for the PASOK but we can find John Wagner who covers the Toledo Mud ins a minor league baseball team and he's a reporter for the Toledo Blade.

Go ahead John tell us what is the atmosphere like at the minor leagues and why people are turning there more and more. Well Kelly first thanks for having me on I really appreciate it. I'm a big supporter It was interesting to hear you talk about the amateur baseball because minor league baseball is kind of the bridge between those amateurs and the pros. I mean yes there are some of the things you're talking about that have disillusioned people about the pros basically the steroids and money but the steroids aren't as prevalent. The drug testing of the minor league level is more stringent than it is at the major league level. And also the money isn't there these are not guys who are making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. They're they're guys trying to claw their way up to the big leagues and make them money and make their mark in professional sports. So. I mean I'm a huge proponent of minor league baseball I mean the guy

cover the Toledo Mud Hens which is in the same league as Pawtucket and I've been following it for about almost 22 G's of about the age myself almost 20 years. But I am a huge proponent big fan. Now tell us describe what the what the atmosphere is like there we had a caller say that you know she was just thrilled to take her kids because you she saw the grandson of a famous player and and it felt like they were right on the field is that the feeling that fans still get it in the minor leagues especially at the higher levels. That's exactly the kind of feeling that you can get that it Toledo we have and I still call the new stadium big because it's it's only 10 years old and the fans are literally right on the field the players who are well not literally on the field but almost of in some ways they are that the fans who sit behind home plate are actually closer to the batter and catcher than the pitcher is. So you're I mean you're

right on top of the play you can see everything. You can have interaction with these these minor leaguers as they're trying to make their way up and in Triple-A you get the. The added bonus of a guy to have been in the majorly that maybe are trying to get back to the major leagues or for some reason are rehabbing things like that. Pawtucket they had Victor Martinez there a couple of them now now about a week ago. So if the atmosphere is fun though too there's also a lot of promotion and I mean I hate to use the word gimmicks I'm struggling for a better word here just kind of enticing. Hi Jinx. Maybe you know you you see things like the dizzy bat spin and raise your head to Leno in particular they have a game called racing with the Stars. Yeah what they do is they have these three mascots and I'm sure you've seen the hot dog race in Milwaukee in the president's race of Washington will leave Toledo. It's racing with the Stars and we

we make fun of three of our most famous native sons Jamie Farr from MASH. Katie Holmes misses. Bruce and Jim Leland who's a native and also the manager of the the money and parent club in Detroit and the racers are Jamie far below kiddie home and Jim Foley Lynn Ann and every day they have a race and you know there's high jinx ensues and it's just it's part of the fun and it just makes minor league baseball different from the big leagues. It reminds me a little bit of the Harlem Globe Trotters you know very good ball players but they had fun with basketball so you know that oh yeah yeah. In fact talking of the money and spoke they do a lot of polling and testing of the crowd. And one of the metrics they use is they will ask them a series of questions like rank how important this was to your experience and talk to their

general manager Joe Napoli told me once that they did a metric with 23 different factors that affect how you how much fun you had at the ball game and of those 23 factors number 23 was how the team did. So it's the atmosphere it's the feeling it's all of that going on. Yeah well both be you know having a chance to have a hotdog at the ballpark and sharing the popcorn and getting to see the players run around just being in the bright sun and all that stuff. Absolutely. All right we're going to take a caller. Chris from Andover Go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show. Hi Cali This is Chris Klein author of the die hard sports fans guide to Boston Well you're the ultimate sports fan but I want to do is talk about some of the real family friendly aspect of my early baseball. I've got a 1 year old and a 3 year old going to Fenway Park. You know would be a complete waste of money not to mention time for having

toddlers at the ballgame but I find a great place to go. The Brockton rock band The reason is they have a complete luxury suite that they devote to infants and toddlers. So if you need a break from the game which of course you know three year olds not going to be watching for too long or if you need to do a diaper change you get a pass to go up to the luxury suite. You can have a break up there and still have speech and go out and watch the game and Brockton and a lot of these other ballparks they have usually a whole section where they have like bouncy houses and slide and games for the kids. So it's great if you've got it you know you little sluggers at home have a very limited attention span but you still want to go to a game and. Catering to families catering to families. Exactly. You know it and it's you know cheap entertainment that way too. Oh well they're they're they're catering to families financially as well having Christmas hit I mean a mudded ticket is a nine dollar ticket. If

people in Toledo want to drive to Detroit they're going to pay for five times that for some of the cheapest tickets available. So absolutely. All right well thank you very much Chris for calling in. That is an excellent point. Something I want to bring up Professor with both you and John is the whole steroids thing both of you mentioned it and I think that's been one of the factors as turn people off and before you speak about it let me let our listeners hear a little bit Cardinals first baseman Mark McGuire broke the single season record for home runs. And here he is addressing his fans after confirming allegations that he used performance enhancing drugs. I apologize everybody in Major League Baseball. My family. Never says. But Sealy. They was the hardest thing while I was. OK I was playing a tiny little violin for him Professor. You know this

really this steroids thing has really turned a lot of people away from the game. Absolutely. Hey Kelly just before we leave the minor leagues just for a second could I make a point. Sure. We're not leaving them I just wanted to make the point. Astaire I mean I think the steroids are crucial in this will be very quickly I have four kids we've taken four trips across the country by car and we always orient our trip by car around baseball games. The fact I have a son who says we went to the great national parks of America Wrigley Field you know Coliseum and so I just think it's everything that's been said about minor league baseball is true they say that baseball is good the parking is free and the beer is cold. So I think I think I think that's that's a wonderful points being made. Still I think the steroids to be very serious. I'm a kind of a baseball historian I teach two courses at Middlebury College one on the Negro Leagues and one a more general course called baseball literature and American culture. And I think the steroids era the steroids

scandal is a disaster for baseball because baseball really sort of understands its history and evaluates its players in a comparative relative sense statistically. And the steroid era has rendered many of the most hallowed records in baseball to be meaningless. You know McGuire is a prime example of that is home run records were enhanced by what he was ingesting. And so I don't have a particularly wise perspective on this I don't know whether these guys should be in the Hall of Fame and I listen to all of these arguments about Barry Bonds and whether he was good enough before he took steroids to be in the Hall of Fame I think perhaps he was. Now we have homegrown guys who brought the Red Sox you know the Red Sox finished 8. 86 years of futility on the backs of Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz both admitted steroid users. A-Rod who's the greatest probably the greatest player of the last decade and a half also admitted it. It's just it's just a really sad aspect of the game it's

kind of a disaster for the game. If you love the game you look past it. I think the game is better now that it's cleaner. We won't see these records again but the steroids I think can't be emphasize can't be exaggerated in terms of its negative impact. John what do you say. Well I think if you are talking to the true baseball fan I would agree with Tara 100 percent absolutely everything you said is rock solid. I agree. If you're looking at the casual fan or the fan who's looking for an entertainment dollar to spend. I would think there are many people would say the steroid era actually captured that thing I mean we all live in this society where it's entertain me you know tweet me what's my TV show you. You've got to have my attention now. And one nothing games that the purists like I love are not going to catch the casual fan base need need a home run.

They need balls flying 500 feet. And for a lot of people that was what captured their attention the exploits of Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa in 98 and Barry Bonds shooting for Hank Aaron's home run record and so forth. Don't misunderstand me I'm not saying that makes it OK or that makes it right. I'm just saying that's what it was. And I mean again not saying it's right. Right. But I understand the motivation and also I understand the motivation of the players if you can take something in your body that's going to have you hit a ball even 20 feet farther that's going to turn a warning track fly ball out into a homerun and that's going to pump up your stats both literally and figuratively. And you know it's going to make you more money and that that's a temptation then. I understand. You know I understand how beguiling

that could be. Well let me ask you this question because a number of our callers have mentioned it and Professor Linden You've mentioned to about how you take your kids and and yet you keep hearing I keep hearing casually that young people are no longer interested in baseball that that whole young person's active interest and maybe propelled by some of these records that you mentioned John has gone away. Is it true and what's being done to just keep them actively interested because that's how the game survives. Professor Yeah. Our grade John if you're speaking Go ahead. Oh no I'm sorry. I think I'd like to hear that. Just think OK. Formulating a thought I've had mixed opinions. All right Professor. Yeah again I fall back upon my sort of rosy rationalization that again I'm surprised in air that we're in where X Games are on TV and seem to be popular and skiing now is.

You know the ski skiing it seems on TV is somersaulting through the air and in football this becomes such a gladiatorial they have their own issues with percussive brain injury which I think is some in some ways is interesting Lee analogous to the steroid era What do you do about it. And so but that doesn't appear to be turning off young people to football. You know they know we're hearing more about those brain injuries but it didn't seem to be turning kids away from it. And yet I hear that kids there are turning away from from baseball they're just not as interested. Well I think it's especially true in the African-American community and that has been that decline in interest has been recorded and it is fairly dramatic I think in other parts of the country where especially where the weather is different I think. I don't know this for sure but I think the interest in baseball has been somewhat maintained but the real distressing aspect of participation statistics are in the African-American community where black kids for a variety of reasons both structural and just in

terms of cultural taste have turned towards basketball and football. And those numbers are particularly alarming. Baseball has never been more diverse in many ways a lot of Latino players now. Yeah you know players in Japanese play Japanese American Japanese players and and Red Sox 7 Native American playing centerfield. And but as I say that now eight point five percent of Major League players are African-American and 25 years ago that was 27 percent. Wow. And the numbers are going down so that's a bit of a difficult imponderable subject. So John what's your take on it. Yeah I mean I guess it depends on your view of it whether it's the raw numbers of people who are following it. Those those numbers are still stings strong whether it's a percentage of one demographic or another that that might be the better way or the better variable there. I mean I think some of it is a

generalization too I mean I took my for my son to his first Muggins game when he was five days old. He tells me he doesn't remember much about it and I don't have to trust him on that. But he can he teach 12 now can get through a game. My 8 year old daughter sister games enjoys them. We have to get in. You know so I think it's more of a you know sort of generalizing I think it's a case by case thing I mean they both have friends who don't even watch games. And again it's some of it is viable. You know we're we're interested in the the big hit on the football field or the slam dunk in basketball I mean I I play my brother in the media to a degree for that as well if you're watching sports center you're not going to see a well-placed sacrifice bunt in the highlights but you will see a home run a slam dunk a big hit. You know diving crazy wacky stop and things like that. So you know again though I come full circle to the big number and that is

the number of fans at minor league games specifically but I think also in the major leagues I can say this is a generalization that the raw numbers the number of people attending are very analogous to what they've been in years past and that's what I hear. Well I think they'll continue to be up as long as they have two great baseball fans like you two. We've been talking about the American pastime with Karlyn dome. He's assistant professor of American studies at Middlebury College and he's currently working on a biography of African-American baseball player and prominent lawyer William Clarence Matthews. I'm also. When speaking with John Wagner who covers the Toledo Mud in a minor league baseball team and he's a reporter for the Toledo Blade. Thank you both very much. Up next our regular Monday feature local made good. Keep your dial on eighty nine point seven. WGBH says. That it is great

history. But to go on to say. Say. Support for WGBH comes from you and from the New England mobile book fair in Newton for 54 years. New England's independent bookstore the New England mobile book fair find them online at an e-book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com. And from frontline tomorrow night on WGBH to learn more about the covert operations behind the strike that killed Osama bin Laden last week. Watch kill capture on Frontline tomorrow night at 9:00 on WGBH too. Next time on the world Arab-Americans talk about identity. I was born in Baghdad but I grew up here. For me to be as Iraqi as an Iraqi is absurd a young Libyan-American watches the news

from Libya with wonder. It's still like a dream to even discuss can he possibly live there. You know I'm Lisa Mullins young Arab Americans consider the Arab Spring. That and the news next time on the world. Coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. From PR eyes the world on Tuesday night May 10th at 6 o'clock at the WGBH studios. I'm going to be hosting an evening devoted to folk singer and educator Chris monk. In honor of Asian Pacific American Heritage Month will be screening a song for ourselves. It's a documentary on a genius like bye to the Camorra with an expert panel discussion to follow. Admission is free but you do need tickets. Get details at WGBH dot org slash heritage WGBH reporter Philip Martin joins a new generation of Freedom Riders retracing the 1961 bus journey through the Deep South. Hear his reports from the road. Mornings and afternoons all this week here on eighty nine point seven. WGBH.

I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Cali Crossley Show. It's time for our regular Monday feature local made good where we celebrate people who bring honor to New England. Today my guest is Noelle Gore Dean. He's a soul an R&B singer from Brockton. His latest album fresh The definition was released last month. Noel welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me it's a pleasure. Well it's a pleasure to hear your music and it sounds great I'm going to let our listeners hear it in just a minute but a little bit more about you how long have you been singing. I've been singing I'd have to say the last 15 years or so since I was 14 and it was just the music that I grew up on. You know it was that music that my papa used to play when I was little and riding down south and that's soul music that I pretty much grew up on Al Green. You know they was Sam Cooke's and Marvin Gaye's and Otis Redding's. That music made me feel a certain way when I was young. Growing up I knew I wanted to get into the music business and kind of make

people feel the same way that I felt when I was so young listening to that music in the back seat of my pops Oh Granville you know. So you know because a lot of people would say You're so young and you know you might have gone toward rap or you might have gone till you know house music a little more cutting edge but you know soul is kind of also. Mission for a young guy like you it isn't you know I'm starting to think that everybody is saying I have an old soul and start to believe it. It's gotten to the point where it's just that music that pure production value you can feel it when that music comes on in my opinion you know I think that was the greatest new music that was ever made. It's just the way it made me feel. You know that the lyrics from when I was such a young kid and now seeing my nieces and nephews be raised up on the same music and they want to hear that instead of rap or you know the music that's more dirty or in lyric the lyrical content and things of that nature but it's just that feel that you get when the when the music comes on you know you sort of close your eyes and smiles so that's the same type

of feeling that we wanted to put into this. This album for us the definition and I think we pretty much accomplished that. Well before we get to fresh I want to let my listeners know about your 2008 hit the river. You're joining us today from Mississippi even though you're from Brockton because you used to go every summer to Mississippi and you have a gig down there right now so that's where you could be in studio with me today. But the point is that the river your 2008 hit was really based on the summers you spent in Mississippi. Absolutely. I mean we used to pack up the cars every every summer. Papa used to put together about five or six Maxell tapes and all that so music go on there so we were riding down the highway you know just playing that music in it kind of I correlated that music in synonymous with the South because it's so many of those artists that sang those records are from the south and you know many that are still alive and with us still living in the south so I always always that music always king you know it was synonymous with the South so I always remember that and then riding

down here and then get in with my grandma my mom my uncles and great uncles and aunts and things of that nature and sitting on the porch with that you know this southern sweet tea you know talking about the old days how Mississippi was in contrast to where I grew up in that was born in Brockton and Boston so it was always fun for me you know and I think that's sort of where that old soul thing came from because I used to love to listen to the stories and how different things were you know. OK well I'm going to let our listeners hear. All that you put into your 2008 hit the river this is my guest Noel Gordy wrong when it was tough we were glad for what little we saw my Samara Mississippi dirt roads and confederate flag every day my little town don't never come. That's where all that crap. That's when my. Mom. When. My.

Dad. Got my mom. My. Son. Yeah. That's my guess Noel Gordon's 2008 hit the river. It's so smooth and Noel that you like that it's it's just that that music that reminds you of the old music but still you know it's still today and relevant in you know retro at the same time. Well we should we should let everybody know that you had a hit it was number one for five weeks but you weren't happy at the time you were with Sony and they didn't really portray the song with the kind of feeling that you wanted to to let the listeners have right in that it was crazy the night before it was actually being aired and going to be put out.

I sort of wrote a long letter email in email form to the president at the time and I was just like you know please don't do it because this music is not just about the pure entertainment. It's a way of life for a lot of people you know that they love the record you want to have a visual that people can identify with. You know I think that was a lot of the problem why people couldn't they didn't tie me together with the record because I mean I already. Pretty much face did that the record was bigger than I was and it's still at that same point right now we're trying to make a more conscious effort to let people know my face as well as my voice. You know what I mean. Yes because just so people understand they made a video as everybody does now when you make a song and the video was set in L.A. And so it was just a complete contrast with what you were trying to portray in the song which was really based on your experiences in Mississippi and a rural kind of more warm family feeling thing and you know that just was very distressing so it sent you away from Sony but into a new opportunity mass appeal

intertainment tell us about it. Yes it's kind of come full circle because the CEO of mass appeal entertainment is Marc is D.L. Siskind and we pretty much grew up with each other in Brockton we knew of each other and doing music and you know had the mutual respect he had went off to to work with with Queen Latifa at the time. And we were still working and I went away you know I was out in L.A. with the DRE and ended up signing with Sony. And after that you know we pretty much got together and started talking and we had a mutual respect for one of the one another just like I said and he was just like look we have the same type of vision. We know what's missing in the industry and what needs to happen so we get together. Came together on the on the contract we worked out everything and now I'm with him in mass appeal and it's great you have a fresh start and the right the latest album is called Fresh The definition definition and we gotta let people hear your your title track off of that which is beautiful. Yeah and this is from my guest Noel Gordon's new album

fresh. The definition in the song is beautiful to the. World. You. Know. Gorgeous once again no Al Gore and Dean that's the seat you're single beautiful which is off your new album fresh the definition. Does it feel like a fresh start. It really does in in a sense Kelly it's my it's my redemption story. You know with that

title and just having a fresh brand new start and new perspective on the music industry. I feel rejuvenated. You know I'm backed because I had hit a rough patch after leaving Sony. I had hit a mild depression and just ask and you know the questions that everybody else goes through in this industry why me. You know I put in so much work and why did this happen happen but you know I believe the Lord above sways us in ways that we have to. We have to witness this kind of hardship to really know where we should be. And now I feel so blessed with a new home new management a whole new regime so I'm just feeling good. You know I've grown as as an artist not just as an artist but as a man so I feel blessed where I am on it. One of the things that I want to make clear to our listeners because it's very exciting for a lot of people. You say yourself anybody could listen to your records. There's no language in there you want it to be enjoyed by all ages everybody. Absolutely I mean it's very important to me and I can't go down to Mississippi to tutor to my

grandmamma say Grandma Listen to this and have all kinds of expletives coming out you know. And I can also let my great nieces and nephews listen to what two years old and up so that's really important to me the integrity of the music is everything to me you know. So that's the way I want to keep it. And you describe it as intimate and I think that's exactly the right word for your kind of music. Absolutely intimate. You know just that tasteful. It's got to be something that people can identify with. But at the same time is respectful tasteful and timeless I think. How do people respond to that kind of new soul music which is what you're really doing people. I think people respond Nowadays it seems like the listeners are starting to come out in have more respect but it does seem like a lot of the music the R&B and soul music that I'm in seems like just trying to get pushed out of radio a little bit more each year so the real true fans are still here and every time I'm on stage Kelly I like to say you know we have to keep this music alive because a lot of people just think it's that they tend to say it's just

entertainment it's just music is not. You know when there was a baby boom started in the 60s and 70s to this music. And there's actually people walking around today that was conceived to this kind of music it's not just entertainment that is a way of life. You know what I mean so and it and it was very important for me growing up to this type of music so I think it's really important that we keep this music alive and try to get more of that more that more crassness music you know have it should have its place we have to co exist. But you know when I see my nieces and nephews also read reciting these lyrics that are condescending to women to people in general it's kind of disheartening. Well you have to worry about me because this is the kind of have a glass of champagne lights low with your man music. Yeah I can relate. That's what I'm talking about. You know what I'm saying. We need a lot more of that right. Absolutely. OK so you're going to Mississippi will you be around this way in Brockton doing some performances coming up.

I am actually trying to put something together for a venue in Brockton and that's that's going to do we're going to try to get the Brady you know radio involved around there so we can get that crowd really where it's supposed to be but I have spot dates all over the country coming up with kindred family so we have to hang out way away. We have a whole bunch of a lot of people coming out lately half away so I'm really excited to get his music out to people. We're going to keep on top of it we're still proud of you thanks for being our local made good. We've been talking to Noel Gore Dinis a soul an R&B singer from Brockton. His latest album fresh The definition was released last month. Thank you. Thank you. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. Become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. We are a production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station for news and culture.