WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Talib Crossley. This is the Cali Crossley Show. We're looking at the career of Cardinal Bernard Law. Last week he stepped down from his post in Rome. This is nearly a decade after the clergy sex abuse scandals forced him to resign as archbishop of Boston when the prices erupted back in 2002. Church records revealed that law was sweeping the scandals under the proverbial carpet rather than reporting priests to the police. He hid their bad behavior moving them from one parish to the next. Law himself was named in hundreds of lawsuits for failing to protect children from child molesters in his wake. Cardinal Sean O'Malley helped to broker a multimillion dollar settlement with hundreds of victims who look at laws legacy from the scandals that have shaken people's faith to the current rate of sex abuse in the church. Up next the rule of Cardinal Law. The cost and consequences. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Jim Howard. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is in

Myanmar also known as Burma for her first face to face meeting with a song Suchi the opposition leader and Nobel Peace laureate whom Clinton has often called a personal inspiration. Clinton's visit is designed to test the new civilian government's commitments to reforms. She is participating in upcoming elections. The two women met for dinner at the home of a top U.S. diplomat today. Tomorrow the two are scheduled to have a more formal meeting at SU cheese home. The state of Massachusetts is suing five major banks for what the state's attorney general says is unlawful and deceptive conduct in the foreclosure process. Attorney General Martha Coakley has filed suits against the Bank of America JP Morgan Chase Wells Fargo Citi Group an Ally Financial. New jobless claims were up slightly last week to 400 2000 for the week. Reporter Daniel Carson says it's a sign the hiring market is recovering but in a slow and even pace new claims have hovered just below the 400000 mark for the past couple of months.

And that's what Wells Fargo economist Mark Vitner is focusing on. He says the bump up over Thanksgiving could just be a blip. Well retailers rev up their hiring for the holidays. The four week moving average is just under three hundred ninety six thousand announcement trending down for a while so it's too soon to write off a little bit of the improvement that we've seen that never expects to see some improvement in job growth when the government delivers its November employment report tomorrow. He expects the economy added at least 130000 jobs up from October's 80000. For NPR News I'm Danielle Karson in Washington. French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected to propose sweeping changes to Euro Zone financial governance in a speech later today. Eleanor Beardsley reports that Sarkozy will likely call for tighter financial integration of the eurozone as a way to convince Germany to fully back efforts to save the euro currency. Fact was the speech tonight will be followed by an address tomorrow morning by German Chancellor angler Americal. The euro zone's two largest economies Germany and France are said to be preparing the ground for more centralized oversight of eurozone nations budgets including penalties for

countries that violate rules of economic discipline. The new proposals if accepted at an EU meeting next week would bring about a major restructuring of the European Union and would mean altering existing treaties but tighter financial integration and oversight is necessary if Germany is to throw its full weight behind a euro zone bailout plan. Analysts say Socrates beach will open the door to a bigger role in the crisis by the European Central Bank with the possible issuing of shared obligations known as euro bonds. For NPR News I'm Eleanor Beardsley in Paris. Just a day after one of its best days in more than two years Wall Street is down at midday the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down 54 points to eleven thousand nine hundred ninety in trading of 1.6 billion shares. The Nasdaq composite index is down a fraction of a point at twenty six twenty and the S&P 500 is down five points at twelve forty one. This is NPR News. It's World AIDS Day today and President Obama says the U.S. should work to ensure that AIDS drugs are available to two million more people worldwide by the end of 2013.

Powerful Santa Ana winds have knocked out electricity for hundreds of thousands of customers in Southern California. Power company officials there say 250000 were without power after the winds knocked down trees and power lines. National Weather Service meteorologist Tom Hall says the strong winds have also disrupted air travel. Los Angeles International Airport was closed due to power outage and also to some cross when where the plane cannot land because the winds were too strong. Paul says he would not be surprised to see some wind gusts reaching 85 to 90 miles per hour. German author Christa Wolfe has died today in Berlin according to her publishers. NPR's Neda Ulaby says Wolfe was one of the country's best known authors but faced critics from both the West and the former East Germany where she grew up before reunification and after World War Two. Christa Wolfe was censored and placed under constant surveillance for her novels. Her first divided heaven was made into a movie. They had tickets and I guess. Like most of her work it criticized the East German society. But Wolf was

attacked throughout her career for not being more critical of communism. And she was vilified in the 1990s when it was learned that she briefly cooperated with the East German secret police. Wolf's novels grappled with Germany's fascist past that explored war humanism and feminism. She was 82 years old. Now to Libby. NPR News. Once again Wall Street is trading down at this hour. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is down 54 points. I am Jim Howard NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from Cabot creamery cooperative makers of naturally age Vermont cheddar cheese and offering recipes stories and programs for schools at Cabot cheese dot co-op. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. News today from the front pages of The Boston Globe at the Boston archdiocese is rearranging some pasture parishes clustering some believe priests because there is a shortage of available priests

and some are suggesting that maybe this is the latest fallout from the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal that drove many Catholics from the church and cost the church millions in restitution to victims. The scandal was uncovered here in Boston nearly a decade ago when Archbishop of Boston was Bernard Law and Law was forced to resign in the middle of the scandal but rescued by the Church given a job at the Vatican in Rome a job he stepped down from last week. So today we look at the career and the consequences of that scandal and the legacy of Bernard Law. Joining me to talk about Cardinal Law's career in the Mark he's made on the Catholic Church are Michelle Dillon a professor of sociology and department chair at the University of New Hampshire and Walter Robinson distinguished professor of journalism at Northeastern University. He oversaw the Globe Spotlight team that broke the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston. Thank you both for joining us. You're welcome. Thank you quit. Kelly let's start with you Walter. Who. Is Bernard Law really and

what is his legacy. Well unfortunately for him his legacy as far as American Catholics are concerned is pretty shameful. He is in effect or became in effect the poster boy for all that was wrong with the Catholic Church in the way it dealt with and covered up and facilitated the sexual abuse of children for decades. One thing that I would say. In his defense as it were is that people think of him as. Someone who who was worse than anybody else in the Catholic Church in a high position. But that's not true. What's true is that there was far more disclosure in the Boston Archdiocese than there was in every other archdiocese or diocese in the country. It is probably true and there are there numbers to support this. The

incidence of abuse the numbers of priests involved and the level of cover up didn't vary all that much from diocese to diocese. So it's just that this particular cardinal archbishop was in the spotlight because there was so much disclosure. Michelle How would you where would you place him on the spectrum of leadership in the Catholic Church in terms of his legacy and who he was given what Walter has said that unfortunately now he's forever linked to this the sex abuse scandals. Well I would agree with Walter that from for now his legacy certainly is what happened in Boston and as he said he became the poster boy for the sex abuse issue. And I think partly that was driven as Walter said by the timing in fact it was the Boston Globe that first exposed it and it was the Boston archdiocese. But I think he himself became that face of it because he was already so well-known I think not just in the Boston or New England region but really nationally because along with Cardinal O'Connor back in the

80s and 90s I mean really I think Cardinal Law and Cardinal Connor were the face of the American Catholic hierarchy of the church. And so I think there was a sort of extra symbolism to his stepping down that went beyond just the sex abuse crisis which in itself obviously was a legitimate reason for him to go. But I think for others he captured what maybe now or some would like to think of as the old arrogance of the hierarchy. So were you surprised Walter when you learned that he had resigned or was asked to leave last week. No I wasn't surprised. He's 80 years old. He has a understand it has lost his vote in the College of Cardinals. And you know he's gone from officially one retirement to another. He's losing his cook. Wow. At the basilica. But I don't think other than that much changes for him he still is a very influential voice within the Vatican and will remain so.

Well I mean I think that's that's the issue for a lot of folks I mean you said it is no worse than anybody else because there was more disclosure here. So he ends up being the poster boy. But we know in fact that I don't know what other people are doing. And the other areas he deliberately moved people around and covered up for their activities. He did. And one thing that makes him appear a lot worse is the extent of the documentation. And as you go through the tens of thousands of pages of personal files that became available on the court order in Massachusetts you find time and time and time again that he and his subordinates knew pretty much everything that was going on with these priests and that their overriding concern in all of their correspondence which was very cordial to the priest by the way their overriding concern was keeping the reputation of the church from being harmed and therefore keeping this quiet. And that's what allowed this to go

on for for so long and I don't know if we want to go down this road but. I see parallels to this in the Penn State situation that we're all kind of aghast at right now. Well let's go to the road just a little bit later let me put some other things on the table. Michel Were you surprised to hear that he stepped down. No I frankly I wasn't at all surprised. You know he's been invisible even though he's still doing work for the church but he is 80 so now you know you don't vote anymore if what you're eating as a cardinal for the next pope. And really I think it's you know it was quite normal for him to step down at 80. Well why wasn't there a bigger I have to say maybe this is just my being entrenched in the story here a bigger public response to it. I mean this did not yes have more documentation here yes. Other people are doing it. But the core of it started here what kicked it off really on a on a on a national international scale started here Michel. So I would have thought there would be more public response. Even if as Walter says the

most that's happening to him he's losing is his cook and he's moving over to a different position. You mean public response right. I mean among ordinary lay people and yeah regular people well I think people have moved on I mean and I said that respectively. I mean the crisis on the hurt caused by the sex abuse stuff will take many many years to fully heal certainly for the victims. But you know I think people move on that's 10 years and of course the crisis itself still reverberates but I think it's only you know Cardinal Law in a sense is old news to a lot of ordinary Catholics. All right so Walter before we go forward it's important that people know that when as head of the spotlight team you spent months days hours weeks on covering this you've talked about the documentation that was not easy to come by. How did you as you were heading up this investigation I mean nobody knew this was going on. I'd like to know and I think we'd all like to know. What was your response as you've been assigned this task you start digging into

it and suddenly all of this is uncovered. Oh my God. I mean let me put you back in time in 2001 when we started working on this. It was a team of four which I headed in. We were used to uncovering corruption by politicians and that sort of thing. And all of a sudden four reporters who by the way all were raised catholic were asked to investigate. Initially John Gagan the one priest who was the sort of sore thumb example against whom there were all these civil suits. And we know nothing about the church in this regard so we started as reporters calling everybody we could think of and finding out as much as we possibly could and within a week we were told pretty authoritatively that John Gagan is the tip of a very large iceberg that there are many more priests involved. God forbid I thought 12 or 15 at the time. And and that their acts had been hidden that the church had engaged in a cover up by

entering into all these confidentiality agreements. And as you know as it turned out once all the documents started to come out pursuant to a court order that the judge of the globe went into court and asked for. We ended up. Now we're way over 200 priests in the Boston archdiocese who. Who abused children and those are the ones that we know of and that's a lot of fairly That's an embarrassing percentage of the priest who served in that period between 7 and 10 percent of all priests were credibly accused of molesting children. So as Catholics covering this and I was around for some part of this coverage so you know at the time the globe was accused of being anti-Catholic by the way I don't I don't remember you all saying hey by the way we are all Catholic those of us who are investigating that report. But but there was a great amount of pushback initially. You know there was it's a funny thing. The

antipathy between the cardinal and the globe dated back quite some time and it had two routes The first is. The Globe unlike everybody else in town almost every else in town didn't kowtow to the cardinal as a political leader. And the second was solely due to the issue of abortion. I mean on if you take the 10 issues of social concern to the Catholic Church the Globe editorial page is in sync with the church on 9 of them. Capital punishment being one sort of good on the one issue abortion where the globe had a long standing editorial page policy of being pro-choice rankled this cardinal because it was the issue number one to him. So yes he accused us of being of being anti-Catholic. The fact of the matter is is that of the six top editors

of the globe at the time of these accusations in the late 90s five of them were Irish Catholics. So now the publishers were not the publishers were the tailors and I think good Episcopalians or to some degree. But. But but I think I think there's a phony charge. I always do. Michelle you know you want to comment. Well just to say I mean I think this is a I think very typical response of the church and to develop their institutions but certainly of the church down through the years even in its time of openness but certainly the last 30 years but when John Paul to his pope I mean it was very much a time of reassertion of the church hierarchy a loss already. And church leaders saw the media in general never mind the local specific media in specific places as really part of the arch enemy of the threat the secular threat that wanted to undermine the credibility of the church so the fact that these reporters were Catholics that doesn't stop Church leaders from accusing Catholics I mean people are doing their job as

you know a sociologist journalist whatever. And many Catholics as we know would disagree with church hierarchy in many things. And so the church leaders use that term a lot to you know end it and they're pushing back against things that they disagree with other people saying these things are Catholic or not is somewhat of a red herring. Michelle Bernard Law is quite powerful. You know even among those who were powerful in the journey. So now this breaks. And his response was you know stonewalling initially. Do you think because he was at the level of power that he was that that he could he could key could stonewall as long as he did before he finally was actually forced to respond. Well absolutely but I think he was able to stonewall because it was also the strong presumption among him and many of his peers and all the church leaders was that this will eventually go away. I mean again this is a sort of a typical response for the church that if we don't to you know add too much to it and given it's just a fad it's a trend out there it's been fueled by the media and a

few malcontents who have a gripe with the church and if we sit and stonewall and stare it down it will pass I mean I think they really believe that this would be yet another one of those issues and this question before we move to break. Was it that also. You know he was just this had become so typical. This sounds horrible to say. I mean you're talking about the documentation Walter where he's acknowledging in print were you know just let's protect the church's reputation but it's become so typical that it is impossible for him not to have understood the level of horribleness was going on right right under you. Well like all churches the Catholic churches begin to redemption and they actually believe that these priests could who offended in this way could say an act of contrition go to confession and it wouldn't happen again. It's not to say that the Catholic Church was the only institution in American life back at that time didn't understand that the sexual

abusers. Tend to do it again and again. So I you know I think in that regard the principal goal was to keep the church from the church's reputation intact and it's a clerical it's culture. So the priests their first concern is for their fellow priests. So when you add all of those things together the children come in second. And that's sad. All right. When we come back from a break more about the legacy and career of Cardinal Bernard Law and the fact he had on Boston's Catholic community as Boston's archbishop. We're opening up the lines 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8. We want to hear from members of the Boston Catholic community. How did law affect you. How did he affect your church. How do you affect your faith. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8. You can send us a tweet or write to our

Facebook page. We'll continue the conversation after the break. Keep your dial on WGBH. This program is on WGBH thanks to you. And New England Toyota celebrating Toyota's new family of technologically advanced nature inspired Prius models. You can learn more about the Prius hybrid family at their official website by a Toyota dot com. And the story of Jesus a beautifully photographed historical BBC documentary narrated by Porro star David Suchet airing for the first time in the US this fall. The story of Jesus tonight at 8:00 on WGBH too.

And. On the next FRESH AIR award winning sports journalist John Feinstein tells us how he's gotten some of the most talented and temperamental athletes and coaches in the world to talk with him. His new book is called One on One Behind the Scenes with the greats of the game and investigative reporter Andrew Schneider tells us why most of the honey on supermarket shelves isn't really honey. Join us. This afternoon to hear an eighty nine point seven WGBH. The holiday shopping and she didn't come in too quickly. This year take some time to savor the season with a Christmas card hosted by WGBH is Brian O'Donovan. This is my big show combines traditional carols and dance with lots of wonderful surprise.

I learn more and reserve two of the best seats in the house with a gift of $150 online at WGBH dot org slash Celtic. Innovation. It has a huge impact on the business and life here in the hobby. I'm Karen Miller join me each week for innovation. The big ideas happening in Boston. Saturday mornings at 7:00 and Sunday nights at. 10:00 here on WGBH radio. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking about Cardinal Bernard Law. Last week he retired from his post as head of a major Roman Basilica. We're using this as an opportunity to take stock of his career and how he affected the Catholic Church and the Catholic community in Boston. I'm joined by Michel Dylan professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. Walter Robinson Professor of Journalism at Northeastern University. He oversaw the Globe Spotlight team that broke the sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston. Dr. Carlos quavers is also with us. He's a

psychologist and assistant professor in the school of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Northeastern University. We've opened up the lines at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. What effect did he have on you and your faith. We had 8 7 7 8 8 9 7 8 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Here's a comment from our Facebook page Alice writes a well-known priest from the Boston archdiocese was furious with the Boston church in the 1950s and 1960s about the priests who sexually abused children. But the hierarchy hushed up the stories. We need to listen to the survivors scandal is not the reason to control us. We the faithful know about the abuse. Many many years ago and she cited a member of the Winchester area voice of the faithful. Carlos we've been talking about laws the legacy being primarily Now however he would like it to be otherwise connected to the sex abuse scandal.

And this Facebook writer has just pointed us back to the victims and there was a response and quite vigorous response to his stepping down last week from victims who are angry that he got away with it. You understand that. You know first of all thanks for having me on. But I think the important thing is that. The justifiable anger and the justifiable grief that victims experience I think gets lost in the scandal surrounding the people who perpetrated and the people who sort of tried to hide what was going on I think it was commented earlier that we were seeing some of this now with with the Penn State case but I think it's really important to highlight that we're talking about a lot of people who were victimized by someone they trusted someone they looked up to some somebody that was there that was supposed to be a source of support to them and they betrayed that.

And I think sort of loudly saying you know these are the people that matter is really important because it gets lost when we talk about the people that committed the acts the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests said last week a full 10 years after his repeated deceit callousness and reckless Ness was laid bare law is still honored and influential within the church hierarchy. Can there be a clearer sign that top Catholic officials just don't care about suffering adults and vulnerable kids. Can you name or even imagine another institution where a similar scheming CEO would be afforded such power and prestige. It's pretty heavy girls. Yeah well I think again I. They my sense is that and this is sort of also coming from working with offenders is that they are so concerned about protecting themselves protecting themselves from consequences and I think it gets to an even sort of grander level we're talking about as dition like the Catholic Church that that takes top priority and and they're so concerned about

their reputation and their image that they forget that people were victimized and severely hurt and it doesn't get prioritized as to the level that is shit. One of the things that's happened as a result of the law and is part of his legacy now is that his impact on the members of the folks who were faithful Catholics as our Facebook writer did some of the most faithful self-described as they are have been sitting vigil for many years since this sex scandal started trying to keep open some parishes that the church would rather close and sell. Joining us on the line is John Rogers he's a spokesperson for St. Francis X. Cabrini in Scituate where they've been keeping a 24/7 vigil for seven years John welcome back. Kelly thank you for having me again value. It's good to be back it's our eighth year of basically protecting our church 24 hours a day seven days a week. You know you talk about was like if I would have to say it's one of the despair

and destruction and his actions that brought this oxidizes. Nothing but devastation with the loss of not only parishioners but the parishes in the in the announcement last night of recon 2 which is just reconfiguration one in sheep's clothing I believe will be the end of this notch diocese in current form and that the pain and suffering that these church closings and this law's legacy has brought to us will just continue to to unfortunately linger on. You're referring to as I mentioned earlier the Boston Globe is reporting that the Boston archdiocese is rearranging some parishes and again this is it seems to be the indirect or maybe a perhaps a direct result of that that sex scandal abuse and the church just trying to withstand the impact of the scandal. John a question we've asked callers and I get to some of them right away but to you who've been sitting vigil for lo these many almost eight years has it affected your faith.

You know what it is. It's affected my respect. Respect is definitely something I mean my faith is stronger than ever. Not only the person is Saint Francis but in the Roman Catholic of the Roman Catholic peoples throughout America it's the hierarchy and I suppose the spiritual leaders that I have no respect for are anymore they have not earned it. Frankly they have done everything to destroy it. And as far as my faith that the strong as ever but as far as the hierarchy I think it's something that should be dismantled and a much more democratic process put in place and I believe that the church is the Church of the people not of not the princes of Rome. All right we're going to go to some callers. John from Newton. Go ahead please on the Catholic Kelly Crossley Show eighty nine point seven. I mean is John Newton I've been a practicing Catholic but all of my life mystics and all is just the the end of some terrible things that happen to the church not because of the Catholic Church but the stewardship

and blame Bernard Law for that because he was interned I blame everyone who is in our Bernard Law included. It isn't the church it's the folks running men who have lost their way and they betrayed the Catholics. I now as many others are kind of you know Memphis as to how we deal with our church. But I will say that I consider myself a Catholic I believe in all of the traditions and dogma of the Catholic Church but I certainly don't believe in the people who have been running as and this is not the first time in history it's happened before in the Catholic Church is that. And that I wanted. If there were Air America or if you were there for many years thank you very much for the call John. Michelle You coauthored a report looking at the response of Catholics in the wake of the scandal and it turns

out that many of them are echoing what John just said. Yes I mean I just see a couple of points in response to the last two John speaking. You know the criticism of church hierarchy and the reduction in the credibility of church leaders this is something that has been going on since at least you know the mid-1970s ourselves so quickly over issues in artificial contraception was the first big break between faithful Catholics and the church hierarchy opposition to the amount of detail and then it continued on over issues that you get abortion and other sexuality issues. So this is not just precipitated by the sex abuse crisis I just think it's important to keep that in mind that lay Catholics for many decades have been going their own way if you like morally and selectively picking and choosing what it is that they agree or disagree with the bishops on so they don't see them as these all and all encompassing morally authoritative figures but certainly part of the fallout of the sex abuse crisis is that a substantial number of Catholics and not just Catholics who call themselves Catholics which itself is an interesting phenomenon but weekly churchgoers are pretty frequent churchgoers. Many of

them tell us that the credibility of. Priest of pastoral bishops to speak out on political issues is diminished. But even more perhaps worrying from the church's point of view is that it's damaging their ability to administer the path to the pastoral and and spiritual needs of Catholics so it's so that I think is an interesting development here that already Catholics had sort of been putting at a distance church teaching on social sexual morality and politics but now it's also seeping into their pastoral care ability and that's certainly a new development from the sex abuse crisis. Thank you very much Michelle Sharon Harrington from sister would go ahead please. I love Sharon. Hello. Oh yes you're in the family Crossley Joe. I thank you so much for this issue. I was just going to say that Bernie is the prime example of the clerical culture that values overvalue the ordained of the priest and really doesn't

care except as a byproduct of laypeople. He didn't care enough to investigate what the potential harm to children was. He just wanted an OK what these brothers. Of his back at work and I think that's a symptom of what we don't have here which is with this restructuring plan it's still focusing just on priests and on their ability their availability. That's a good point. Walter you respond to that. Yeah. Thank you Sharon Sharon that is a very good point and one thing I would say about the latest plan for reorganization is it is true that the cost of the sexual abuse crisis in terms of the settlements has had an impact on the churches ability to sustain itself in an operational way. But it is also true that once the. The drapes were peeled back if you will on the church. We found out in

greater detail how badly mismanaged the church was fit in actually for decades that they spent money they didn't have. They got into extraordinary deficit situations. And so the conscious consequences of that are directly responsible for this tension between good good Catholics like John who are sitting vigil in churches and hierarchy. It's an extra extraordinary amount of mismanagement at all levels both of the priests and the abuse of the finances. OK so Michel I just add sorry. I mean I certainly agree that certainly the sex abuse crisis has had a financial impact as well as many years of financial mismanagement on the part of some priests. But the demographic shifts that have long time been coming and are now reaching a sort of a crescendo with the aging of the current cohorts of priests and the obvious priest shortage is really pushing a lot of diocese independent of the sex abuse crisis.

To explore ways to still meet the so-called pastoral and spiritual needs of Catholics so I don't think we should just focus alone and saying oh I know it's also the timing issue this was announced last night and here we are talking about the legacy of the sex abuse crisis anyway but the demographic shift even for example just nationally you know the Midwest in the Northeast New England in particular they were the bastions of Catholicism but increasingly the larger numbers of Catholics because in part due to Hispanic immigration are in the West in the south so there is this mismatch in terms of church facilities and who's in the pews and so I just would like us to keep the bigger picture in terms of this church clustering idea. John do you want to respond. Yeah without question on to the two points first of all of the difference between the Archdiocese of Boston and the spiritual leaders being a moral right as one thing then becoming a criminal entity that our children and the absolute number two is that most the world is run

with Les led services anyway. So I mean the point is that your your other guests are making are it is just literally company line and I just you know we live here and in the city and you know exactly you know what's necessary for us as far as morality but I mean to to equate sexual abuse with you know the fact that somebody may disagree with church stance of contraception is ludicrous. We're not questioning our leaders because the fact that you know we don't agree with them and on every level we're questioning because they show up on every scandal sheet on the front page of every scandal sheet worldwide we're questioning them when they track them and subpoena wives and put them in beat in front of the court system because the difference I mean obviously the seriousness of the situations that in the end will leave you with this point and it will show you such a such disconnect that they communicate I had a Bishop looked me in recently and tell me that the sexual abuse crisis has nothing to do with the law. Lack of parishioners in the in the pews. And that most of the sexual abuse crisis happened

50 or 60 years ago and it was irrelevant today. I mean that is just so disconnected from reality and the anger that you can probably hear it in my voice right now that most of the parishioners not only in my parish but the parishes throughout the Boston feel that we have voted with our feet and walked away got in touch we have chose to draw a line in the sand and said listen you are actually not going to basic We're not going to let. We're not going to be just second level of victims through your actions and I will tell you this there's an incredible disconnect between the hierarchy the paper you know a crowd and those of us here in in the real world. That was John Rogers he's a spokesperson for St. Francis X. Cabrini in Scituate where he's been keeping vigil with a number of other parishioners for 24 24/7 for almost eight years. Candy I wasn't equating the sex abuse crisis with other aspects in church life. But I think it's important to keep in mind that there are many factors in many issues that have over the

years impacted how Catholics assess relate to church hierarchy. Well here's a question before we go to break Walter why given what you've just said OK we're we're putting on the table the sex abuse scandal has had a great impact. John I think is correct in speaking to the bishop about you know come back to the real world this is an impact. And your work showed that there was already mismanagement all over the place with money. But Bernard Law was living in luxury in Rome in the last few years. He was put there protected and was doing quite well even you said this new thing means that he just loses a cook. What does that say to people in terms of how the church is is hearing the people in the real world. Well it's yet another signal that the church doesn't get it and that they believe that they are an entity unto themselves and that the secular culture. He has no right to question

does not understand. And that they will protect their own I'm sure and this has been reported. There's also a feeling in the Vatican that the cardinal so we say took one for the church and that in fact he did it and he deserved to. But the fact of the matter is as we've discussed many other bishops and archbishops were just as bad in their handling of this. It's just the law who was as Michelle noted the senior American cardinal. He was the one who got caught in the crosshairs first. All right. Well we have a lot more to talk about including whether or not as a result of the scandal the result of Bernard Law's legacy has maybe evidence one positive thing and that is a change in how we look at sex abuse and kids and whether there are some some laws rules that have been put into place that make this a better situation now.

We're talking about Cardinal Bernard Law he resigned from his post in Rome last week. We're taking stock of his time here in Boston as archbishop and how he affected the Catholic community here in Boston. You can get in on the conversation of 8 7 7 3 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We'll be back after this break stay with us. WGBH programs exist because of you. And the Boston Symphony Orchestra through December 30 years Ebell of logic leads a program of Harbison and Beethoven including Beethoven's piano concerto number four with guest soloist Jonathan Betts BSL dot org. And a new window within my industry. I tell everybody I know who I'm friendly with. They're missing the boat if they're not underwriting Public Radio. Jeff Kaplan co-owner and within the Boston marketplace I think the best place to put

their underwriting dollars is public radio and that you GBH to learn how WGBH can benefit your business. Visit WGBH dot org slash sponsorship. I'm Lisa Mullins The government in Burma keeps a tight lid on pop culture of some musicians there turn popular American hits into a more acceptable gospel song. There is no attempt to translate the English lyrics. They will create their own lyrics and then they will fit them to the tune they are copying. How Burma's musicians bypass government censors. Next time on the world. Coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. 2011 brought stories up uprising dates another bloody day here Syria and rebuilding. Cantor who made a arrived in Tokyo to help haul garbage out of neighborhoods destroyed by the tsunami and falling in love. The rest of the world the richest before us. Is. What will 2012 bring make a tax deductible gift to

support what's next. Aged 8 8 9 7 9 4 2 4 4 give online at WGBH dot org. Brian O'Donovan Come join me every Saturday at 3 for the good old fashioned session on a Celtic So you're not on any 9.7 WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. If you're just joining us we're talking about Cardinal Bernard Law. Last week he retired as head of a major Roman Basilica Cardinal Law was the archbishop of Boston when the sex abuse scandals within Boston's archdiocese came to light. This hour we're taking stock of his career and how he affected the Catholic community in Boston. I'm joined by Michel Dylan professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. Walter Robinson Professor of Journalism at Northeastern University. He oversaw the Globe Spotlight team that broke the sex abuse scandals within the Archdiocese of

Boston. Dr. Carlos quavers is also with us. He's a psychologist and assistant professor in the school of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Northeastern University and standing by John Rogers spokesperson for St. Francis X. Cabrini in Scituate where they've been keeping vigil for 24 24/7 vigil for almost eight years. You can get in on the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 0 9 7 8. You can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. One of a Cardinal Law's legacy you know has to be Carlos that there have been some rules put into place now to address situations and like this that occurred during the sex abuse scandal. And that would prevent hopefully but at least reduce the number of opportunities for this to happen. Tell us about that. Well you know I take issue with scandals dictating new laws and new rules for how we deal with sexual violence because what

happens is people sort of get very upset about this and get a lot of media attention and then they implement sort of knee jerk policies that maybe maybe make sense maybe don't. And what happens a lot of times those policies aren't necessarily going to be effective it may sound like they make sense but they may not be a fact that most of the policies that are around sexual violence in general use that as an example like you know sex offender registration and notification laws and residency restrictions and things of the such. All stem from dramatic scandals or court cases associated with sexual violence problem is turns out depending on which one we're talking about. They vary from anywhere to questionably effective to actually problematic. And so I think the issue around. What do we get from the sexual abuse scandal and what do we get sort of in terms of any sort of reaction that may prevent victimization from what we learn from the scandal. I question

the effectiveness because it's not the motivation isn't surrounding how do we help people not be victimized. The motivation is how do we not get busted for this again. And I think that's part of what I take issue with is I question the motivation behind the implementation of those of those policies. But as I understand it now with the new rules or maybe they weren't so no they're least highlighted now is that if somebody sees it they have to report it. I mean there are some levels that were put into place so that it's not in a situation that happened here with Cardinal Law being able to you know push some priests around and keep it kind of quiet. Let's say somebody else happened to observe this. They have an opportunity now to. Move along. Perhaps an intervention. Well but I think it also it's also associated with the notion of whether you know what's the consequence of not reporting and so on questions having to report it what does that mean. I have to report it because I'm actually legally bound to report it because I'm a psychologist by profession. If I

don't report knowledge of sexual abuse I'm actually breaking the law. Now clearly I'm going to do it because I care about this work but it's also illegal for me not to if there isn't necessarily. So I'm sort of sort of consequence to keeping it secret. Same that they have to report it. I don't know how well that will equate to actually reporting it. And the problem with that is it's still a reaction to the abuse not a prevention effort. You're reporting it you're not preventing it you're just saying when you saw something that you thought was abuse and Walter would we not say then that this is exactly what happened at Penn State then this is a situation where you know this went on for a while because Carlos says there's there's no there's nobody forcing anybody legally to report anything that is the case. As you know in Massachusetts now the church had long resisted the Catholic Church a long resisted legislative attempts to include priests as mandated reporters under the

law. The fact of the matter is and Carlos is exactly correct on this. Requiring somebody to report something within a culture where perhaps they see some downside to doing so means that crime still don't get reported. And that brings us to Penn State. There are people at Penn State. It's my understanding of the story which I've tried to follow closely who are mandated reporters who did not report instances of alleged abuse by Gary Sandusky the coach. And and so the culture of the institution maybe to a lesser degree obviously than the Catholic Church prevented action from being taken when it should have been taken because children were not the first priority of those in power. So Michel this is right. Where you were you about what you have written in saying that some of the sex abuse is so institutionalized in the church now that you don't believe that it

can be prevented entirely certainly. But maybe not even reduced in great in great part. Well no I think you do have to hope that when there are these legal requirements that that will hopefully prod some people to act who you wish would have acted in the past just for moral and cultural reasons and that now may be in the same at Penn State had somebody realize I really have to report this and I have to go to police rather than to jail paternal so that it's taking it out of the close secrecy of the institution of other church state or a corporate culture so that I think has to make an impact I mean it doesn't obviously override the larger root of all of this abuse that's going on in our society. But I think it's good to have new laws in place that are reporting and hopefully as you mention that somebody can intervene and to prevent further instances of abuse. But it's a very difficult hurdle to folly. I think institutional is in everybody's consciousness. Tracy on the Mass Pike Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show. Eighty nine point seven I'm now climbing the hill. Oh it's

OK. I wanted to ask the piano at church just very well not just. I think within the last year we increased close to 3 million dollars on exactly how he used to live if used occurred and I was shocked to see the results of the study were basically the loose morals of the 60s. So I'm wondering just how care and the church prevented if you like this from happening again horrible issues like this when they don't even really understand because it's just excellent to get the loose morals of the 60s. I think it has a lot to do with sexuality and repressing sexuality but I was wondering if I could get a comment on that. Yes you can both Carlos and Walter are ready that way and Carlos go ahead. Yeah I mean I think what you're referring to is the research study that John Jay College did on the sexual abuse.

And it's received a lot of criticism because in part for that conclusion around sort of the sort of social environment of the time I sort of want to make two points about it one is to some degree in defense of the researchers as you're only as good as your data and what they had access to was whatever documentation was available in the Catholic Church now we know from you know what Walter was commenting on that will be questionably useful at best. So I think that's one issue. But I think the other issue is that. I think where the point was missed in that report is that it didn't take into account or didn't seem to focus so much on sort of sort of the individual level factors that are associated with sexual violence. Some of it is issues of sexuality but if we're concerned about you know the aspects of celibacy and so on well then the problem would be priest having consensual relationships with you know adult adults. So I think the point that was missed is the issue around

that the church needs to deal with the reality there is a percentage of the people within the church who do have this sort of sexual interest in having contact with with youth and that they're in a position where they have ample opportunity to do so given their position within the Church given their access to potentially vulnerable children. And that really needs to be I think sort of brought more to the forefront because maybe the looseness of the 60s if you will can explain part of the reason in the 60s but that it's in the 70s and 80s and 90s. It sounds exactly Welter. Well I'm Carlos is exactly right of the dad of the John Jay College had was quite flawed. And for instance they didn't have good data from the 30s in the 40s so if they had good data from the 30s in the 40s they might have blamed it on the Volstead Act which repealed

prohibition and loosened people's inhibitions. I mean I thought it was a kind of a nutty conclusion. With all due respect to the researchers who did do the study and it was a copout it gave the church a convenient scapegoat pinned it on the 60s. All right John from Rhode Island Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show eighty nine point seven. Yeah thanks for taking my call. I just always astounded me that car along didn't go to jail for what he did. If you had a school superintendent who would move around a teacher that he found out had been molesting children and didn't go to the authorities instead just covered it up and moved him to another school and didn't tell anybody. It worked. The president and I think it's a direct correlation of what happened at Penn State. If they had been you know 20 years ago the bishops got indicted and sent to prison. And Joe paternal would have thought twice about you know what he did. And I think you would have gone to the yeah to get to

the authorities and just try to cover the thing up and going to his boss. Thank you very much John for the call. Well do you want to say something. I well I agree with the caller. Here we are eight years after this became such an explosive story and we have one monsignor in the Philadelphia archdiocese is the highest level official in the Catholic Church who's been indicted for condoning and hiding these crimes in Massachusetts. The former Attorney General Tom Reilly convened a grand jury to investigate this in 2002. The church resisted cooperating with him he had to subpoena law and all the bishops he could have indicted the cardinal. He did not. He should have indicted. In my view he should have indicted the cardinal. He certainly should have invited indicted a couple of the bishops who worked under the cardinal including Bishop McCormack and he did not. And I don't know the motives I wasn't in the grand jury but one thing that we all know is that the decades that preceded this law enforcement judges prosecutors

tended to look the other way and there are there are too many examples of that we know of. That they could have or should have dealt more firmly with us and they did not because of the pedestal that they all placed the church was just a quick criminal question that you might be able to answer Carlos and that is if he comes back to the United States could he be prosecuted in any way. Cardinal Law. Depends what you want to try and get him on. I mean part of the issue with sexual abuse cases is that a lot of states and there varies by state. They carry a statue limitations which I think actually I think sexual abuse shouldn't have it at all but that's a discussion for another time. I don't know I don't know because it depends on what you would want to charge him with and whether there are statue limitations around that. My guess is he probably has very little motivation to get on a plane and come back here. So Michelle I know that you wanted to get well just the shift in gear a little bit but I think as we move

forward now and you know in the wake of the announcement of the so-called you know re clustering our parish teams I actually this is an opportunity for lay people to. Further dilute the culture of secrecy and clericalism in the church because there are openings you know for Catholics to take not to take over but at least to administer and to run their own parishes and you know we will all of us talk about these churches the people of God but sometimes the laity themselves are sometimes a little slow about taking up responsibility and I think the more people are involved in the ordinary everyday activities of the church then it's you know it takes the power away from it all just being consolidated into priests as we have seen that has contributed to the clericalism and to the cover up. Well no better person to answer that than John Rogers spokesperson for the St. Francis X. to Raney your comment John. Don't you know you when you get a society based on privilege like a priest hood and cloak it in secrecy. This is what you're going to get the rest of society looks at them as as as people are and put into prominence.

They're allowed to. A much to do what they wanted unchecked in some study to say that the morals of the sixties is laughable to say the very least you let them basically this this cancer breed it's going to spread and that's exactly what happened in it as far as you know basically the responsibility is you know if I walked up to my neighbor's house and the end of the many rabid pit bull and and it ate two of its children. Well the responsibility lies solely on my shoulders and that's where the responsibility should go right back to Bernie Law. He knew what was going on. Heald allowed this to happen. He is the leader of the hierarchy the only responsibility placed squarely on his shoulders and quite frankly it's got to be consequences for that. I'd love to see him back in the United States and out to Steve Fossett. Thank you very much. That was John Rogers spokesperson for St. Francis X. Cabrini. We've been talking about Cardinal Bernard Law and his legacy he stepped down from his post in Rome last week. I've been speaking with Michel Dillon professor of sociology and department chair at the University of New

Hampshire. Walter Robinson distinguished professor of journalism at Northeastern University. He also oversaw the Globe Spotlight team that broke the sex abuse scandals here in Boston. And Dr. Carlos clay of us a psychologist and assistant professor in the school of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Northeastern University. Thank you all very much. Thanks Candy. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. The calico costly show is a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.