WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

Uh uh uh uh uh uh uh that afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. We're listening to a recording of from the top special Martin Luther King Jr. tribute with the Boston Children's Chorus founded by social justice stalwart Hubie Jones to lend your voice to the conversation give us a call 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Today we're honoring Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. by going beyond the dream. More than a peacemaker he was a radical thinker whose push for civil rights surpassed racial inequalities. For a look at the King that was and the king we remember today we've assembled around table of some remarkable thinkers. I'm joined by Representative Byron Rushing. Reverend Cheryl Townsend jilts and writer Diane McWhorter. Byron Rushing is a Democrat who served in the Massachusetts state legislature since 1982. Rev. Cheryl Townsend jilts is the John D and Catherine T MacArthur professor of sociology and African-American studies at Colby College.

She is also the host of a gospel radio show the on cloudy day on w him HD radio. Diane McWhorter is author of The Pill it's a prize winning book Carry Me Home Birmingham and the climatic climactic battle for civil rights. MCWHORTER also authored the children's book a dream of freedom about the civil rights movement from one thousand fifty four to nine thousand nine hundred five. Welcome to all of you. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's so good to be on your show to see you on radio. I see you on the radio I love that. Thank you. Well we can see you. You look beautiful as always. Thank you very much for the compliments. I want to start out this way. I think that when people think about Martin Luther King Jr. just casually they think about some famous words that were spoken in 1963. Mark.

Will one day live in a nation where they will not be bothered by the content of character. So I'm wondering as you will hear those words and think about King's Lett legacy in its totality. If you understand that he's sort of been frozen at that moment if you will. And what does that mean really going to start with you representation. There is absolutely no doubt that he has been frozen at that moment. And two things happened because of that. One is that we don't study the period that brought him to that point. And then of course we don't study and listen to his words after that point when he moves to talk about not only civil rights but also talk about other aspects of reform and really revolution that are necessary in the

cut this country. If all people are going to be involved and benefit from the idiology that we claim Reverend jails. Yes and No. Yes he has seemed he seems to have been frozen at that moment. But the literary critic Erik Sundquist also points out that the moment of that speech that speech itself is important because it created what. And this is Erik Sundquist word a national script a new national scripture. And so everybody Glocks into that speech and utilizes it interprets it for his or her own purposes because it says dream and we have this larger script called The American dream. And so people who are of goodwill or who want to be seen as people of good will appropriate that speech both for cultural purposes as well as political purposes. But yes he's also been locked in because he continued

to write work struggle for five years afterwards. Not only did he expand his program in terms of what we call civil rights so that you really have him working for what Malcolm X called human rights. You have him addressing the issue of poverty in a big way and poverty in a way that brought communities together across the boundaries of what we call race. Let me get Diane into this conversation Diane in your book a dream of freedom the civil rights movement from 1954 to 1065. You wrote these words in the epilogue Ironically the annual observances of King's birthday every January have stripped him of much of his power to inspire and transform his nonviolence is sold as passively by those who want to discourage black folks from making demands on power. You want to expand on that for us. Yeah I sometimes think of that speeches as the sort of rabbit's foot the white people

struggle in order to you know let's just hope that people don't go militant on us again. And just remember Dr. King you know was talked about that dream. People forget that the bitter language leading into that. Dream passage was there will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges. So you know so I think it's sort of the radicalism of Dr. King is definitely has been submerged in that in that key passage which uplifting though it is is is definitely only a small part of the story. Why is it important we understand the fuller picture of him. Well you know I remember when my daughters were young and they would study the King story every every January on this day and and they were just kind of getting the

impression that he had partly because the conditions he was fighting against were so unthinkable to them that they couldn't really understand what the problem was and so they got this impression that he sort of stood up and said Why can't we get along and everybody said OK. So so I think that you know one of the reasons it's important is that we not really that we not forget. What we were capable of doing as a country to a substantial portion of our of our citizens and citizens really so. Anyway I've and also to be able to recognize the ways in which we convince ourselves that things are okay and normal which one day we look back on is a form of mass social insanity the way we look back on segregation and and you know I kind of want children to certainly try to take stock of what's going on today that with that may not seem right in retrospect.

OK. You know years ago you know Aaron McGruder did a segment of his cartoon you know Boondocks on King. And it was a return of King King. It doesn't get assassinated he goes into a coma and he wakes up and comes back and is this shock when he starts to talk like to us right now like he did then and I think that's what we what we forget is what are we supposed to use. King's statements his philosophy his idiology. Now how are we supposed to use that. I mean if King were here now what was it. What would his position be on the war in Iraq or and the war in Afghanistan. I mean we because we know what he said about the war in Vietnam. And so the assumption I think is is that if we limited him to one spot in his whole history. Of of. And his whole development of his of his activism. We

can't avoid saying what would he mean to us if he were here today I want to play a clip from him says I don't think a lot of people do know what he said about Vietnam. So here's the famous Riverside speech. I come to this magnificent house of worship tonight. Because my country is me no other choice. Time is vitriol. And time has come for us in relation to Vietnam. Sheryl Joel's Well I think that as I told my congregation and I also bring you greetings from the Union Baptist Church here in Cambridge Massachusetts where the assistant pastor for special projects. So I told the congregation yesterday it is interesting that that Vietnam speech occurred one year to the day before he was assassinated. I've had the

moment that somewhat answers the question what would happen if came back now we I had to moment where I was putting together a a question for a final exam in social problems and I decided I was going to use the we are tied together in a web we live in a world house and I wanted the students to locate their research projects. In this world House and as I'm leafing through testament of hope the tears just came and I said it out loud I wish you were here today. The next day a student walked into my office and asked me to do books on our in the residence hall and we used testament of hope which meant six meetings dividing the book up into six parts and what focusing on the Riverside speech you know in focusing on all of testament of hope which contains the Riverside speech it contains his significant speeches his significant essays and portions of his book. And so we divided that big volume up into six portions at a meeting. And one of the things that the students came the conclusion that students came to and these are

students at Colby College who were not alive. The majority of the world's people were not alive when I think I was alive and this is important why the historical context must be taught that what Diane McWhorter talks about in terms of the context of segregation must be taught. But they sat there and they said but he's talking about the issues we still face today and. I think people need to realize that King spoke to those issues. I taught theory for the first time this year and one of my students discovered that Martin Luther King was a sociology major and all of a sudden the world became more engaging for her as she talked about it. So we need to work to get his writings and his perspectives not just that one wonderful sermon which doesn't stop inspiring me but also the other stuff all of the other stuff including the very clear analyses his last book

where do we go from here chaos or community. I want to ask Reverend rushing just to follow up on something that you said and ask if we are trying to get the fuller picture of of Reverend King. How are people then to interpret that how does that play out. If we really understand the full King I think is to it two ways I mean one is to see what does that what those philosophy they got us so much of civil rights in this country. What does that mean when we apply it to the issues that are before us right now. But also I think especially for young people it is to understand the criticism that comes when you speak that kind of truth. OK. You know what followed that speech was a New York Times editorial That's right. They were going to get it. In the next break. OK I'm Calla Crossley and we're exploring the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King. Do you think his image has been scrubbed clean of his anti-war anti-poverty views. How are you remembering Dr. King today. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1

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page. Boston's NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with FRESH AIR and the Emily Rooney show the new eighty nine point seven. Yes. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Cali Crossley Show. We're listening to our recording of from the top special Martin Luther King Jr. tribute with the Boston Children's Chorus founded by Heebie Jones. Today we're discussing the legacy of Dr. King with Byron Rushing. He's a Democrat representing the ninth district. Reverend Cheryl Townsend jilts also joins us. She is the John D and Catherine T MacArthur professor of sociology and African-American studies at Colby College. Also with us writer Diane McWhorter. She is the author of the Pulitzer Prize winning book Carry Me Home Birmingham in the climactic battle for civil rights and the

children's book a dream of freedom about the civil rights movement. We'd like to hear your remembrance of Dr. King. Do you recall his speech beyond the nom. How does your understanding of Dr. King from 40 years ago square with the king we know today. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Now we've been talking about his anti-war views which are very important for people to understand but I also want them to understand at those five years as you pointed out Reverend Jones after his life he spent a lot of time talking about anti-poverty and moving toward trying to make people understand what poverty meant for people. Let's listen to a clip. We read one day. We hold these truths to be self-evident. That all men are created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights that among these are Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But if a man doesn't have a job or an income.

He has neither life. Nor liberty. And the possibility for the pursuit of happiness. He merely exists. Damn wonder I wonder what his stance on poverty meant from a civil rights perspective. As you understand it because we understand him to talk about content of character a colorblind society as some have interpret those words. What do you think it meant that he put his emphasis on anti-poverty issues. Well I think we have to remember that he lost his life in the context of a sanitation worker strike in Memphis Tennessee and was really vividly reminded of that during a transit strike here I think it was Christmas of 2006 when I was kind of most of the workers were striking over very legitimate demands and also things that would that would affect if they had

given into these given these concessions it would have affected the labor movement everywhere. And I want to let our listeners know you're talking about the New York transit strike. Yeah the New York transit strike which And I was kind of stunned by the lack of sympathy that that you know the white mainstream show toward those strikers and what I got what I realized was that. White people even white people of good will often tend to be more comfortable with blacks in the role of helpless victims as they were in Katrina where you saw this sort of outpouring of concern and sympathy after the hurricane Whereas you just saw none of that toward the transit workers strike it was sort of like you know it was it was almost on the level of How dare they demand more. You know the prospect of black people or it was you know the union was primarily

African-American and Latino and the prospect of them organizing and being militant and standing up for their rights and were demanding a fair wage really was you know drew quite a different reaction then than the people stuck in the Superdome in New Orleans. So people can understand then that when he moved what they thought outside of the civil rights arena there was very much pushback. Yeah that was push back but I want I want to connect with something that Diane just talked about and that was the transit workers strike in New York where you're talking about black and brown workers because of the civil rights movement because of the success of the civil rights movement. We integrated those job categories in northern cities that had previously been controlled by white unions that had been hostile to the participation of black people. We are we are having this broadcast in the city where the transit system prior to the civil rights movement and the actions that it had only

hired black men in the role of porters and then had to go through a lot of really the names of most of the busted black bus drivers when I came here and I had to go there were so few. Yeah and then I had to go through a lottery system to desegregate the occupational structure so we're talking 40 years later when that occupational structure has all you know is segregated and now when it is visibly black and brown all of a sudden unionization is bad. And I think we we need to recognize that component of it. I appreciate that I want to quote Cornell rest theologian who said that King was a Christian based democratic socialist. Byron Rushing to that speak to his movement toward an anti-poverty Yes of the I think the term I would have used is he was sort of the last member of the social gospel movement. Well the social gospel movement but I think the decent labeled that it fits right OK but what I want to say here also is that he did not see the role that civil

rights was simply about legal rights nor did he think that civil rights was a term that applied only to African-Americans. And so what the what the what the Poor People's March the last major demonstration that he was organizing before his assassination was calling for was for all poor people regardless of color right regardless of any station other than he in poor coming together. And he saw no reason to say that anyone should be excluded because of that which of course is another piece of Martin Luther King. Vision that has gotten lost even among the leadership of black of the black community today that civil rights is not just for black people. That you cannot talk about. He would be I am sure leading a major movement in this country around immigration if it would

all come together for him. He would be 81 years old today. And I wanted to just allow you to go back to the New York Times editorial which chastised him for speaking out about Vietnam and taking it to war stance and also to note that there much conversation has been about co-opting his words for today's times right before the 2003 war when President Bush was about to involve us in the war in Iraq. He quoted from King saying his line saying injustice anywhere is a threat to injustice everywhere. I think I would like for people to hear the context of King his own words using that clip so they understand where that came from. The US can do what they want to do. That's that business of the civil rights leaders for various reasons refuter can't take a stand on how to go along with the administration. That's fabulous and that's what I crave.

I know I know now that just because I am deficient in just us anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. I go. Reverend Jones was it appropriate for President Bush to use his last lines in the context of going to war in Iraq. Politicians will do what ever they need to do to start over some politician. Yeah right. Reverend Reverend Byron Rushing and I always trying to get my students when they're trying to make sense of the kinds of stuff that people like that do I say you all need to learn to think like evil geniuses because this is this is what happens people borrow in you because they want to make that point. So was it appropriate for for Bush to use it. I think not. Well maybe if he had also added that that Oh I'm sorry go ahead go ahead to him but maybe if he had

also added that King also said that the the the triplets of social misery were racism poverty and war. Mentioned you know you mentioned his anti-war position as well and this gets back I think to the March on Washington speech. You see we don't have in common vocabulary anough quotes from Martin Luther King. We don't we don't have the common book and the common vocabulary so that when you hear those words someone can stand up and say and say oops no no I don't think that's the way it was meant. And this was the way it was meant. And this is the other sentence in that paragraph. What do you want. You know those who are born who are hearing this and they come to this holiday every year and the same words are used not in the common vocabulary. How can we get them to understand the bigger picture. By teaching it and by sharing it with younger people. I am one of those people who is addicted to the Martin Luther King breakfast

and I started taking my godchild with me and the first year we went it was the year that the late Yolanda King was speaking and we took our Dr. King's daughter right and we took my copy of testament of hope which had been autographed by Corrado Scott King hope getting his wife right. Hoping that we would be able to get her to do it. And this 8 year old this beautiful 8 year old took great delight in finding the quotations as she was finding them on the pages all of these long winded speakers were going on and on and on. But I bought her her own copy and she has made it a point to take it to school and share it with her teachers so I've had occasion where say well where's your copy of testament or Miss So-and-So has borrowed it. And so she has been educating her teachers. They have to see you appreciating the legacy to understand and we need to encourage young people to learn the full story of King.

The full story of the Civil Rights Movement understand the politics of race and ethnicity in the society and the braided foundation of oppression that on which this country was built. But then once they learn it each one teach one and it sounds trite but that works that helps. That expands the consciousness so that people will say well tell the whole story when you appropriate Dokic tell the whole story. I agree with that completely I think that we have to encourage people to study. Martin Luther King you have to study his now it's his writings but they can still hear many of his speeches and part and. And I think that there and this I find as a problem of having a Martin Luther King holiday. You see I think that America has has has set up a way to do holidays and so holidays in a sense. Move people away from what they are most important for. And so I WANT WHAT I WANT MORE. Lot more young people interested come to me and want to

talk about the writings of Frederick Douglass. Then come to me and want to talk about the writings of Martin Luther King. And I think that's because they see him as someone who should be studied. But Martin Luther King has a holiday he's like Presidents Day. He's like Columbus Day and so we have to make a special effort to center young people on the study of Martin Luther King and I do believe that it has to be done by example. And we have to be studying him more. Also are you concerned that that as and Diane's words earlier that the holiday has become a point where people sort of disk disconnect from the person is just some guy and I don't know really would know why we're have the day off we just have the day off. I used to in my own life have to take the day and actually do a tribute and a ceremony with friends and make it a point to recognize it and there's that. And there is a growing interest in doing that and so now there is more thought

about not spending the holiday as a time as a vacation day but spending the holidays doing some kind of public service in your community. And I think all of that. It is very very wise my suggestion for the holiday next year is we ban the speech. Let's have a Martin Luther King Day in 20 11 with out the March on Washington speech. Wow. And something else to have the young people memorize and give in their churches. When you think about that Diane anything but right now I want to pick up on something I think you said Cally about about all the criticism or maybe it was all the criticism that that King took. That's what I would incorporate into any lessons about Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King Day because the very existence of the holiday sort of you know implies that he was lionized in during his life. I love his he

after he got the Nobel Peace Prize in December of 1064 he was giving a speech sometime after the ceremony and he said this isn't you guys that isn't the usual pattern of my life to have people saying nice things about me. And he said oh this is a marvelous mountaintop. But the valley calls me and. You know I think people need to understand need to understand that it's definitely a fight even even though it was even though it was a nonviolent fight it was it was it was a fight. I think that there is one by one fight on his part his side but it was nothing on my own part. And because people don't understand that you have this foolishness where people think that strong Thurman's states rights party and his attempt to fight segregation is the equivalent of Harry Reid's observation I can see that level of ignorance where people don't understand the violence the wholesale violence against black people and their allies.

That was routine taken for granted. And part of the extralegal fabric of this country and not that long ago 50 years is actually not that long ago for you you're about to say Rev.. Representative rushing What do you think yeah. And in talking about the criticism it's very important that we demand all of the records for the official criticism of Martin Luther King that existed through most of his last years and that and that we call that all of the records of the FBI and the CIA and all the other governmental agencies that were working diligently to destroy or destroy this man and his family and of course and through them the movement that that information needs to be made public. And I also think that it should be part of the part of the holiday ought to be for people to recognize that he was a part of something not a single changer of the entire society that he led a civil rights movement. Of

the hundreds of thousands of nameless faceless people that wanted to be a part of this social revolution. I agree. I think I'm concerned in terms of the records yes he was the target of Cointelpro and young people need to understand that some of the legal restrictions that politicians are now complaining about in terms of in the context of confronting terror etc. but the sharing between for instance CIA FBI etc. A lot of that legislation to defend the privacy of American citizens was precisely the consequence of the misuse and abuse of those agencies in their struggle to destroy the civil rights movement and particularly Dr. King. Well we know that we can celebrate his birthday even as we try to expand on and embrace the fullness of his legacy. We've been talking about Dr. King's legacy with Representative Byron Rushing. Reverend Cheryl Townsend

and writer Diane McWhorter. We have to say goodbye to Representative Byron Rushing and Reverend Cheryl Townsend jokes. Thank you so much for joining us. Diane McWhorter is staying on for our next segment a roundtable of three middle school students who will share their essays on Dr. King. We'll be back after this break stay tune to eighty nine point seven. Support for WGBH comes from you and from the continuing education program at the

Museum School Boston offering art classes and intensive workshops for all experience levels and are professionals. You can register now for spring courses starting in January. S m f a dot edu and from safety insurance which is committed to working with independent agents in Massachusetts and New Hampshire to provide coverage that protects your home's auto's business and financial interests. You can learn more about safety insurance at safety insurance dot com and from the WGBH Ralph Lowell society local philanthropists who support public radio with annual gifts of fifteen hundred dollars or more. Learn more about the benefits of the Ralph Lowell society online at WGBH dot org. This is eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with the world. The PBS News Hour and the callee Crossley Show explore new voices with us all day long here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. We're talking about the legacy of doctor Dr.

Martin Luther King with writer Diane McWhorter. We're also joined by three winners of the annual Martin Luther King essay competition. Samantha libretti is an eighth grader at Bigelow Middle School in Newton. Eric riddles is a seventh grader at the Advanced Math and Science Academy Charter School in Marlborough and Josh Skelton is also with us. He's a seventh grader at the Wilson Middle School in Natick. Welcome to all of you and congratulations. Thank you. I'm so glad. Before I ask you each to read an excerpt from your essay I'd love to know what did you know about Martin Luther King Jr. before you wrote your essay. Which one would like to go for Samantha. OK well in school we always have. Celebrations or like lessons about Martin Luther King because he's so important in history and so every year we usually honor him around the weeks of January. So you know something about him. Yeah. How about you Eric.

Well I learned that he was a great man who followed his dreams and he wasn't afraid to break the boundaries and just go outside of the box. So you knew this before you wrote your essay. Yes. OK. And how about you. Well every year we kind of do a Martin Luther King project study thing and we learn about him by the point I wrote the essay I knew quite a bit about him. OK very good. Well just when we start with you would you read your excerpt. Because Dr. Martin Luther King is so important to my family I decided to interview some family members and friends of the family you remember Dr. King. I talked to an African-American man who was also in his 20s at the time of Dr. King. He grew up in Texas during segregation and went to a segregated school which they referred to as a separate but equal school. He also had to sit in the back of the bus or train when he traveled. He had to drink from black water fountains and use black restrooms. When you think about it now he said it seems like yesterday. And that's why he never thought he'd live to see the day we elect a black

president. Thank you so much Josh.. Eric would you read yours. We are here to dream. Why are we here. Everything. Everyone has a purpose what what is mine. It might be a poet like Langston Hughes or it might be a musician like Louis Armstrong or is it that I am to be a computer scientist like Mark Dean or a dreamer and dream maker like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. dreams inspired courage and confidence and with enough persistence you can achieve your dream. Thank you Samantha. On a trip to Washington D.C. I got to visit the White House on the walls of the tourist section. Our pictures of our president Barack Obama. He is an African American who is now the leader of our country. I sometimes think about what Martin Luther King would say to Barack Obama and the citizens of America. He might say I'm so proud of what this nation has done. But to this we might answer. It's all thanks to you. Well we can see why all three of you are winners. I want to ask Diane McWhorter to ask

you a question and Diane is the author of a book called A dream of freedom the civil rights movement from 1954 to 1965 which was published in 2004 and it's a children's book. Diane go ahead. Hi kids. Congratulations. Let me think what I want to know. I guess I would like to. I'm wondering how what specifically in your lives you you can relate to. What was what was happening in the country at the time of Dr. King's life. And I want to ask you and before they answer. Diane grew up in Alabama and Birmingham Alabama and that was the site of a very famous campaign in the civil rights organization. So she knows this very well. Which one would like to go first which one of you would like to go first to answer Diane's question. Or maybe it maybe you know it was or anything. Any experience you had of injustice that that you know made you see this in a new way or understand it and how it related more to you.

You know time and place but she has an answer. Go ahead. Well yeah because I'm Jewish. We did a great deal of study on the Nazis which definitely made me realize about the injustice that the blacks faced was definitely related to the Nazis and how they treated the Jews and the whites and how they treated the blacks. So you saw some comparisons there. Yeah I did. OK very good. How about you Samantha. Well since we live through the campaign of Barack Obama I just felt that it was such a great step because there had never been an African-American president and also in Massachusetts our our governor is African-American and that was a first also. And so I enjoy following government I guess and so I was always interested in how Martin Luther King influence America in that way. Eric anything from you. Well my dad everyone wants. He's always been teaching me the right stuff like he's teaching me to be faithful my ration of pride. So

I've just been very happy alone with him and he's been teaching me that Barack Obama was the first African American to be president I think that's just an honor. Do you all think it's you know for people your age for people older this was a big deal for President Obama to become elected because of what you now know about Rev. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement. But did you guys just think oh it's just just another day kind of thing it's Isn't it interesting how did you interpret it from your own images. Well I thought well I don't have much perspective perspective on this because I wasn't alive during civil rights movement. But all the adults around here make me feel old to continue. Let all the adults around me seem to be really excited about it so I figured it has to be something good. It is something Samantha you want to say something. Well it's always a big deal when the president is elected so I think that Barack Obama he's also a special man and he his

campaign was like so strong and everything that maybe his his race was just a side note to all that I think. But it was I think it was cool to like live in that history now that we can tell our children and grandchildren that we were part of the campaign of Barack Obama. Diane jump in if any time you know I'm curious I'm curious whether you guys up there met the choices where I used to live myself and know Cal A and I actually went to college with Cal and I wonder whether you you experienced any kind of or heard any racial comments or were surprised by the level of you know whether you heard any objections to him on the basis of race and were sort of surprised by that. Were you just Or were you just kind of insulated from all that.

Well when I was younger I was insulated and I didn't know much about it. But recently this year my school it's my first year at the school and so it stands for the Advanced Math and Science Academy Charter School. I had someone call me like he said he reminded me of brownies. And at first I didn't know what it meant but then I came to understand and I just felt like that was not right to say. What did how did you respond. I responded like with not with hate or not mean I will I use responded nice because I didn't think he knew what he was talking about. I told him could you please stop that because I don't really appreciate it. And he kept going on so I had to get the teacher involved. But it ended. Do you think that's surprising given that so much has happened since Reverend Martin Luther King led the civil rights movement are you surprised that this still happens. Well yeah I am surprised because Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. went through all this to try and get his dream to go on. But some people just try and stop it like that in their tracks.

Is it important to you well that your the rest of your classmates understand the way that you three seem to. The legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King. Well I think we already like since we already learned about at school that many of the kids we all respect. Martin Luther King not just as like an advocate for civil rights but as a person because he was such a great man. And I think that some people they don't know enough about him. Like Erick said like they don't know enough about what America has gone through and maybe they just don't understand yet. Diane why don't you tell Samantha and Josh and Eric just a tiny bit of what you went through as a youngster in Birmingham's. Yeah well I grew up in what I call the wrong side of the revolution because I was a member of the sort of white mainstream white segregation that's mainstream

in Birmingham and you know it wasn't very typical for that time and place wasn't it wasn't that I was motivated by hate by any means but I was definitely prejudiced in the sense that I thought that you know I thought probably thought that blacks were inferior to whites. And remember when. People in sixth grade I think it was a little bit younger than you guys would ask each other or you go we would go around asking each other are you prejudiced. And and I remember most people would kind of confess that they were. But I remember saying that that came up with that I thought was this brilliant moral distinction and said that I was a star. I was a I was a white supremacist. But I wasn't prejudiced I mean you know you can you can you can be a bigot without being nasty about it so that was kind of the. What was the polite normal when I was growing up and what I try to tell when I talk to to young people now. The thing I try to get across to them because it's just so hard

to understand this is that segregation felt very normal to those of us who experienced it. And I would dare say Cali I don't know with you whether you feel this that it felt that way to a lot of African-Americans to know that it felt good but people just assumed that that's the that was the order of the day and that it was never going to be changed. And and one of the things about the civil rights movement that's also kind of hard to to understand from our perspective now is that while it was happening the outcome was far from clear. I mean you know the coming into Birmingham. Nobody knew I was going to turn out. Yeah nobody. Yeah I mean it was I mean eventually obviously you know segregation would have would have been would have ended one way or the other but at the time it wasn't it really wasn't obvious that it was going to happen and when it did. Eric wants to respond to you.

Go ahead Eric. What I think is I think it's African-Americans just thought it was normal because they couldn't do anything about it. No one wanted to step up and break that barrier. But when we had Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He was like an inspiration for everyone he just opened the gate and let dreams flow in. I wonder if we also want to let you know Diane and I that there were kids your age kids your age were involved in this movement Did You Know That. Josh do you have children's marks exactly in Birmingham Birmingham where Diana is from. It's March there were kids your age. But I also just want to correct another misimpression here is that the. The civil rights movement was a tiny minority of the black population and in fact King was extremely controversial within the black community and his his top deputy in Birmingham Fred Shuttlesworth who was the hero of my book Carry Me Home was X was very unpopular among blacks as well as whites

because people were were really afraid of bucking the status quo and a lot of people had exactly what Eric was saying. Yeah people who does that. So people had to it wasn't I saw it in in a sense it was a lot of people didn't get on board until the the brave pioneers there had done it had done the really courageous work and then when it seemed like it might there might be a chance that it was going to that it was going to win then that then a lot of people got involved. Josh you want to comment on this was like if you can do it I can do it so let's go. Well I'm a little bit like that is that yes. Yes. But sometimes there are rational people when it's sort of like the the premise behind you know Dr. King tried to fulfill this and this Gandhi's strategy of filling up the jails because once you couldn't jail any more people it became meaningless if you were breaking the law to protest an

unrighteous law Samantha has a comment I think that sometimes when you want something that change there are always going to be people who don't like it and they're going to be people who like it. But it usually works out in the end so I think that we all like learn from that. That was work out positively but it works out. Quick question quick question for all of you. Does Dr. King seem real to you or does he seem like you know somebody in history this kind of in a dusty book. JOSH Well he seems very real to me because my great uncle actually knew Dr. King well. And when I injured my eyesight I actually entered a letter that Dr. King wrote to him with it. So who my Uncle Josh.. Oh this is embarrassing. All right I got it in a very honorable. So it's OK. Stan does it seem real to you Samantha. Yes in some ways I think that he

lived like 40 years ago plus 40 plus years ago. And like in our generation there are now new heroes or new people to look up to. I think we still our generation we still like look up to him as a leader but maybe not in the sense that I like that he's still living and like that he could like someone could go after what he wanted. But he's a real person not somebody that you can imagine meeting and knowing like Josh's uncle did. Eric does he seem real to you. He does seem real because my dad has been telling me stories about him. I've seen him in history books and I've also seen videos of him. So it's proof that he's real. Well he was very real to me kids because when I was young I actually saw him in Memphis Tennessee which was his last campaign as you know before he died. So he I saw him working with the sanitation workers there and it was quite exciting for me

as well. And I'm not that old by the way. So I appreciate all of your comments and your beautiful essays and your contribution to this wonderful celebration of Dr. King today. Who would have been 81 today. Damn a quarter. Samantha libretti Josh Skelton and Eric Reynolds thank you for joining us. And thanks to all our guests. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show by visiting our website WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley. We're going out on another recording of from the top special Martin Luther King Jr. a Jr. tribute from the Boston strolled rence chorus. Today's show was engineered by Jane pick and produced by Chelsea murders. Our production assistant has an a white knuckle B. This is the Calla Crossley Show a production of WGBH radio Bostons. NPR news and culture station. Eat.

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