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I'm a Cali Crosley and this is the Cali Crossley Show. Last night President Obama delivered his first State of the Union address as one came to national prominence by way of the pen. Did the president's prose make the mark last night or did he fail to capture our imagination. Back in the day when times were even tougher. FDR elevated the president's annual message to Congress to the STATE OF THE UNION. Did Obama sustain that high level of rhetoric or did he descend into a barrage of bromides as usual to determine if mission was accomplished. We'll take an analytical look at last night's address. We're topping off the hour with two local athletes headed to Vancouver for the Winter Olympics and will pay tribute to Howard Zinn. Up next on the callee Crossley Show from the State of the Union to subfreezing sports and the spokes person for the people. Howard Zinn. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. President Obama is

talking job growth this hour in Tampa Florida which is getting a piece of the eight billion dollar funding for high speed rail projects in 31 states and the District of Columbia. But Florida's share isn't nearly the biggest in the group as NPR's Brian Naylor reports. California will get the single biggest chunk of the high speed rail money two point to five billion dollars for a planned system running between Sacramento and San Diego. Florida will get one and a quarter billion for a line between Tampa Orlando and Miami 1.1 billion will go to improve an existing rail line between Chicago and St. Louis in all 31 states will receive some of the funds that were included in the stimulus bill approved by Congress last year. Some high speed rail advocates say the money would be better spent on fewer projects. The Obama administration says the money will create or save tens of thousands of jobs. Administration officials fanned out across the country to announce the grants. Brian Naylor NPR News Washington.

In another sign of a dragging jobs market the Labor Department reports that first time unemployment claims didn't drop last week as much as economists had predicted. Details from NPR's Chris Arnold. Analysts had hoped to see even fewer people out of work and looking for unemployment benefits. Nigel Gault is an economist with IHS Global Insight. Slightly disappointing the claims. Clearly we're not making quite as much progress here as we as we hoped. Gold says the economy is getting close to the point where it's going to start to create some jobs. But he thinks job growth will be sluggish with unemployment hovering near 10 percent for most of the year. Meanwhile a report on sales of equipment and other durable goods had some bright spots. Good news from the durable goods report is that companies are starting to pick up that capital spending. I mean this from a very very low level but it is starting to go up. Chris Arnold NPR News. The Senate may hold a final vote today on whether to confirm Ben Bernanke to a second term as head of the Federal Reserve. Some senators are finding his reconfirmation critical of Bernanke his handling

of the U.S. economy. The debate over government borrowing unfolds in the Senate today the Democratic leadership is trying to pass a measure to raise the federal debt ceiling by nearly two trillion dollars to overcome GOP opposition the Democrats will need 60 votes that include support from those opposed to raising the limit and incumbents facing a tough race for re-election. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average down one hundred twenty two points at ten thousand one hundred fourteen that's in trading of just over two billion shares. Nasdaq composite index down forty six points at twenty one seventy six S&P 500 down 14 at ten eighty four. This is NPR News. The U.S. military says a top al Qaeda commander suspected of moving hundreds of foreign fighters from Syria to Iraq is dead. In a statement out of Baghdad today U.S. officials said the militant leader died about two weeks ago after

attacking a soldier during a raid in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. Two weeks before Ukraine's voters elect a new president a political battle is heating up. As NPR's David Greene reports opposition leader Viktor Yanukovych when after his election rival Prime Minister Yulia Timoshenko today by forcing her interior minister to be fired. Five years ago a rigged election in Ukraine brought protesters to the streets and sparked the Orange Revolution. Many Ukrainians are hoping whatever happens their upcoming February 7th vote is fair. But the two leading candidates are doing some political jockeying accusing one another of getting ready to steal this election. Today opposition leader Viktor Yanukovych forced a parliamentary vote dismissing Ukraine's interior minister. A DNA code which told Reuters this will prevent his opponent prime minister Yulia Timoshenko from using the Interior Ministry to rig the vote. The prime minister struck back local news agencies quoted her saying she'll re-install her interior minister just under a different title. Her campaign has reminded people that the winner of that

2004 tainted election was her opponent. The courts overturned yet a coach's victory at that time. David Greene NPR News Moscow. The U.S. government is reporting an upswing in big ticket items according to the Commerce Department today U.S. factories posted a gain of three tenths of a percent in large part because of an increase in orders for vehicles and auto parts last month but overall the recession cost manufacturers big in 2009 orders for durable goods plunged by more than 20 percent. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from the Doris Duke charitable foundation supporting the performing arts and barn metal conservation and medical research and the prevention of child abuse. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. You can be part of the conversation by calling 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70.

Last night President Obama made his first State of the Union address. A lot was riding on this speech to see if Obama did indeed deliver we are joined by two of the best Obama watchers in the area Ted Widmer and James to Darian Ted Widmer is curator of the John Carter Brown Library at Brown University. He is a connoisseur of political rhetoric and American historian. And among other things editor of the library of Americas come PDM of great speeches. He is also a former Clinton speechwriter claims to Darian is the Watson Institute research professor of international studies at Brown University and a documentary filmmaker whose latest film Human Terrain is coming out this year. Now did you hear the president speak to you last night. Weigh in on the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 Ted Widmer James to Darien welcome. Thank you. Glad to be here. OK so what I want from both of you first is just your overall

response to the speech. I thought it was a good solid effort. This is Ted Widmer. I thought he delivered it well he looked good spoke for a long time it was almost Clintonian. Leno very up there got a lot of good government ideas out there. It was not inspiring Obama rhetoric like we remember from the campaign and there were imperfections but I thought it was a good solid effort. Professor Darian My take away is he's really developing a sort of dialogue as opposed to a monologue for the state of the Union address. More than one occasions had reached out to the audience remarking on you know what's your reaction to what I'm saying. You know I expected more applause or you know even you know causing some of our Supreme Court justices to have a little bit of whiplash when he reprimanded the most recent decisions on finance. So I think that he's moving away from the sort of closed tax to a more open text and that has some hazards because he's going

to get a response and it's not always going to be positive. Well let's listen to a little bit of what the president had to say. When I ran for president I promised I wouldn't just do what was popular I would do what was necessary. I wanted to play that because I thought that he spent a lot of time during the speech I wondered if you would agree with me really making people understand the context of how he came into the presidency and what he felt was his responsibility and what was somebody else's. Do you agree Professor Darian. Yeah you do I think that obviously he's been battling rising expectations in a situation a global situation that he inherited so mediating both is going to be difficult. We're operating in a global economy and clearly he spent well over I think over 50 minutes dealing just domestic issues. So I think he understands the imperatives in dealing with necessity means he's got a very small margin for using

persuasion rhetoric and really confronting which is the biggest empire right now is the Empire circumstance. Professor Widmer What does it work to set the context as that. Are people listening to that or in this particular speech could they hear that and appreciate it more. I think he was speaking to a lot of people last night but maybe his supporters first and he had to explain away if a fair amount of disappointment over the last year and especially the last month and he needed to tell the Barack Obama story again which still is an amazing story a year after he became president and it was important to remind everyone how much he inherited how hard it was to become president in January 2009 and to remind them this isn't easy he's fighting an uphill slog literally on a hill Capitol Hill. And as we could all see a Congress that isn't that inclined to cut him very much slack. So he needed to explain the business of governing.

And I think he got a little close to Jimmy Carter territory a few times by by almost swallowing and how hard it has been but I also think he needed to remind everyone that it is hard business. OK let's let's there's another clip that I think is getting a lot of attention that I think speaks to that point. These disagreements about the role of government in our lives about our national priorities and our national security. They've been taking place for over 200 years. They're the very essence of our democracy. But what frustrates the American people is a Washington where every day is Election Day. We can't wage a perpetual campaign where the only goal is to see who can get the most embarrassing headlines about the other side. A belief that if you lose I win. Neither party should delay or obstruct every single bill just because they came did that speak to the difficulty of governing or did

that or did that give him some political cover if you will by saying look I'm out here tryin these guys just won't play. Well I think it did a little bit of both. It was a true statement. Washington was talk sick before he was elected and it remains toxic A year later. We saw that pretty graphically on display last night with Republicans rarely standing up when he said anything and even the Supreme Court. He was almost in a trash talking situation with Sam Alito. But I don't know that merely diagnosing the problem creates a solution. I mean he's absolutely right. Everything you said about the failure of partisanship by bipartisanship is true I just don't know where the solution is yet. I want to ask both of you to address what many have talked about today and it felt like this to me too as just a consumer. There were so many issues addressed in the speech.

We clean energy security the economy of course Jobs was number one he made that clear. We got to health care Thirty two minutes in Texas on the banks don't ask don't tell. I mean it was fairly dizzying. And Professor Widmer is is that goods speechmaking. I think it's more or less required for the state of the Union to stay the Union. We almost never can remember a state of the Union more than a couple days afterwards because they are laundry lists and they were under Clinton and there very few that we really remember vividly after the fact the ones we remember inaugural addresses. Maybe a campaign speech now and then so he delivered on that I mean it was a Clinton like speech in many ways with a lot of small bore initiatives middle class initiatives and I think that is good politics that's that's what the occasion demanded. But it just felt like so many I got to come back from that it just I mean really I know we're not some as you say we can't remember everything. But Professor Darian I mean shouldn't we come away with one or two things that really

matter and maybe spent more time on it because I just felt as though I just can't comprehend the spectrum of all the issues he put before me. Well if there was a sort of master narrative as we like to say I think it was that this isn't a game. The media is a game the politicians on two sides of the aisle are treating as a game. He's trying to bring an element of seriousness and saying you know stop this behavior that winners and losers. You know there's going to be compromises we've got to find the middle ground which is going of course anger probably the extremes on both sides but I was also struck by this is the master narrative of domestic politics but then when he went to the global arena then he did talk in the language of games you know Europe and China these nations are not playing for second place. You know that the line that it's OK to sort of bluster and insist on you know United States always being one. But within the United States we have to get out of this sort of gamesmanship that's

really led to all this backbiting and status and frustration and anger that he talked about. Let's play a little bit of that. You see Washington has been telling us to wait for decades even as the problems have grown worse. Meanwhile China is not waiting to revamp its economy. Germany is not waiting and is not waiting. These nations are there not standing still. These nations are playing for second place. We're putting more emphasis on math and science. They're rebuilding their infrastructure. They're making serious investments in clean energy because they want those jobs. Well I do not accept second place for the United States of America. OK so Professor did there and you said that was a little bit of gamesmanship but maybe it speaks to maybe the question is Who was the audience his audience was the audience. We we Americans the average folks it wasn't really Congress in some ways.

Yeah I think there was some throwing of red meat to the domestic audience there because you know on the one hand you're talking about the dire situation the economy which is truly global you know one nation state can determine you know now these incredible spasms and you know tidal waves that go through ripple through the system and yet to then go out once you go you know beyond our own borders and claim that we have control over the international arena I think is if not a false picture it's has an illusionary component to it in it. And I understand why he needs to say it. You know patriotism is still the major I think way to rally support at home particular when you're trying to find something that transcends partisan politics but it doesn't really correspond to the fact that nation states are as powerful in calling the shots particularly over a global economy. How did you how did you read that Professor Widmer. I agree totally with what James said. I mean there were moments where

he expressed deep belief in the international system and then other moments when he went back into red meat as James called it in. I mean there were also moments when he seemed kind of conservative almost He called for nuclear energy and some offshore drilling and then other moments where he was a good old fashioned liberal like getting rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell so it was a complicated speech here. You're not alone in feeling some confusion but I think that's part of the point of the state of the Union is just throw a lot of stuff out there and see what sticks. Is this President Obama in the way that he has thinking process on display if you will. You know let me put it all before you and give you all the context and you know how I have thought about this as opposed to I heard David Gergen last night political analysts say they describe his leadership style is not he's not someone he says who grabs you and says we're going here we're taking control and we're going to take charge he says that's not his leadership style would you agree with that. I would. I'm an Obama supporter but I I feel like we're

at a moment where we do need some of that old fashioned LBJ or FDR style leadership and there was one moment he poked fun at himself but it was a curious moment where he said he's now going to call monthly meetings with the Republican leadership as well as Democratic leadership in it. It almost sounds like it's the old community organizer building consensus and I think we're past that I think we need you know strong arm is this is a strong term but we need forceful leadership and fighting back and sure we lost 60 Senate seats but there's still a lot of fighting to be done and I like that he called on Democrats to to stand up again. Well he certainly stood up for his health care plan even the minutest and even 30 minutes in. Would you agree. Yes he did. He didn't say anything specific but he said let's not abandon it either and that was important to say. He might have said something even stronger than he said to Professor Professor Widmer did you feel that it was a strong statement about health care

or no. No I didn't think it was extremely strong. You know he might have come up with something specific to say and maybe more of a timetable too he just said let's not abandon it which that is true. I mean that that was a good thing to say and he acknowledged some flaws in how he had been talking about it but there was not a clear proposal out there either. Now the tone of the speech overall. Of course you would expect this from opponents on the right Mary Matalin who is a Republican consultant said she felt it was defensive. How does that strike you. I agree in some ways and I disagree in others I mean he did acknowledge more fault than most presidents do in the state of the and I mean this is usually an orgy of self confidence and claiming credit for lots of things some of which a president deserves credit for and some of which he doesn't and he did acknowledge imperfection which I think is is good it's refreshing after eight years of

never hearing anything like that. But I also think President Obama needs to take care not to get too far into Jimmy Carter territory. Analyzing a medal as that begins to attach to him in the very act of an out analyzing it. And I guess if you do that then you're considered weak which you know he sort of addressed as well in the in the speech last night. Yeah it's a catch 22 because honesty is fantastic. But to talk about weakness too long it's a terrible idea at the top level of politics. OK where did the constructing President Obama's State of the Union address with Ted Widmer and James to Darian Ted Widmer is curator of the John Carter Brown Library at Brown University. James to Darien is the Watson Institute research professor of international studies at Brown University. What was your take on last night's address or did you even tune in. Give us a call 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We'll be back after this break stay with us. With with with the

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amount. At WGBH dot org. I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. We're talking about President Obama's State of the Union address with two of his most careful observers Ted Widmer and James to Darian Ted Widmer is curator of the John Carter Brown Library at Brown University. He is a connoisseur of political rhetoric and American historian. And among other things editor of the library of Americas competing him of great speeches. He is also a former Clinton speechwriter. James to Darien is the Watson Institute research professor of international studies at Brown University. He's also a documentary filmmaker whose latest film Human Terrain is coming out this year. What is your take on Obama's address. Was he speaking to you or past you. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 7. So I got to talk about the language of the speech because I was taken as a person who gives a number of speeches

that there were three endings to it and it drove me insane. You know I'm getting to the chorus and you know I'm ready to go with him I'm waiting for the big close and then he starts up again. And this is no doubt what made it 70 minutes. So I wondered Ted Widmer as a study or of political rhetoric did it strike you that way. Yeah I have to admit Kelly this is a terrible thing to admit by I fell asleep near the end. This is my point exactly. You know that was the end. I did. I woke up though I didn't like the USA USA chant. I thought that was a little below Obama Obama's a great orator and he you know that's kind of an ordinary cliche. I did like the final couple sentences. You said that seize this moment to start anew to carry the dream forward to strengthen our union once more and I just I heard a few echoes because I like American history to start a new echo something Lincoln said in 1862. We must disenthrall ourselves we must dare to think anew

to carry the dream forward sounded a lot like Ted Kennedy's famous speech in 1980 about the dream of liberalism and strengthen our union once more he said union a number of times and that's again an Abraham Lincoln word and not a word you have heard a lot over the last 25 years or so unions kind of a 19th century word so I thought that was interesting. Well for me it sounded a little bit like Martin Luther King. But you know he just did the repetition a little too long to make the powerplants really listen to a little bit of that fundamental decency that has always been at the core of the American people that lives on. It lives on in the struggling small business owner who wrote to me of his company. None of us he said are willing to consider even slightly. But we might fail. It lives on in the woman who said that even though she and her neighbors felt the pain of recession

we are strong we are resilient. We are America. It lives on in the 8 year old boy in Louisiana who just sent me his allowance and asked if I would give it to the people of Haiti. Yes see that's the part that sounded like Martin Luther King or an attempt to sound like Martin Luther King to me was those repetitive statements toward the end. But as I said you have to keep them kind of short and really hit it. In my opinion and as a person who gives speeches. Would you agree. And he wasn't quite leaning into it the way Martin Luther King would have been I mean he was in full voice at that moment you know I think he was probably a little tired also so it was a subdued quality was it was a good speech but it was not a great speech. Now I want to. There were a couple things that was interesting you mentioned that he mentioned the word union a lot. Somebody did one of those word cloud games and they came up with these words that he spoke quite a lot. Will people American

new jobs of course family stood out. And there was a drinking game on the Huffington Post betting on how many times he would say let me be clear or changes it easy or make no mistake and of course we heard that quite a bit as well. I have to say that the GOP response. The person that gave the GOP response the governor of Virginia Bob McDonnell. I thought he was quite good he 10 minutes he got right to the point. I wondered how you both responded to what he had to say. If you were awake I would say woke up and I got drowsy as soon as he started speaking. It was OK. I think I mean it was better than last year Bobby Jindal. They had I would say so yeah yeah. We had some light stuff in the very beginning a joke about his son staying up to watch sports channel. But it was I thought it was kind of predictable nothing too interesting in his response

except they're saying the government is spending too much money. I don't know where they were during the Bush presidency when we're spending too much money also but. But it was OK it was an improvement from last year but it didn't it didn't blow me away either. Professor Darian How did you respond to it and I have to say I appreciated that the audience looked like America. Lots of persons of color in there I know that's planned but hey it was working for him. Yeah I thought the effort though to channel Thomas Jefferson both in the you know the content of what he was saying and also the setting kind of fell flat. We're all trying to appropriate the founding fathers these days and I think Obama's got a better claim than the governor of Virginia currently. Yeah I think he's someone to look look toward though in the future. Now we have a caller. Go ahead gay tree from Melrose. I just wanted to say that I was looking up at the Obama beat and I thought he did a tremendous job.

He why did you think it was great. I mean he's the kind of guy who's been fighting and especially when people are. Feeling low and he can bring them up just by good speech I think. And people say that he's not including my husband who says that you know he didn't take one aspect and go along with that one aspect. I feel he's the kind of guy who likes to lead in a multi-pronged approach and I think he was sure that that that approach was and he will succeed in every one of those prongs that he picked up. Do you think the people who are not as supportive as you might have been inspired by what he had to say last night. I think still I think he he's a very optimistic person and very inspiring and even if you aren't you don't believe in that the Democrats are Obama's. But I think that they're uplifting because it's good enough I think you know. I don't think you got it.

Well thank you very much Professor Darien. Did you think I think we're hearing from the media anyway that the speech was considered like a reset a relaunch. Would you agree with that that that that's the narrative that's going to be carried from here and do you accept that that's a correct narrative. Well we're in the sort of very short news cycle so if it seems like we need a reset relaunch every 24/7 because you need news and be careful again we're part of the media and in the show and you know sort of academic bystanders. There's a tendency to always be critical. But if you do I think pull the closest thing we can to you know claim to being a unity of the people. I think they'd be less cynical. The more I think taken by the fact that he was looking for unity in diversity as he put it that was a recurring theme and I think he did a good job of that. And I'd be a little less ready to sort of look to the media right now because I think the more part of the problem than the solution they look for the

polemic rather than the dialogue. And that's understandable and that's why I think you're going to get a different response from the vox populi than you will from directly from the vox populi than mediated by Mary Matalin or her equivalent on the other side. Well let's hear from some of those vox populi Ron from your answer. Go ahead please. Thank you I think that we're the lead player the comment. Well I'm an independent middle class living in Hampshire. I thought Obama's speech was actually going to point one was that we're getting tired of nothing getting done. I mean I don't think. Got to get done whether Republican Democrat Independent I think everybody is getting disgusted with this whole with nothing going forward although with you know the whole thing with payouts in the in the house in the Senate or with a sudden Brio who is going to have to cheat to satisfy with universal health care and that's a truth that the public against voting for. This player but I think what was important about the speech was to remind everybody of what he moved into.

I mean we're talking about 700000 jobs a month to warn of the possible Great Depression. You know if at least the recession and the stink that we all expect him to get is done in 12 months is totally ridiculous. So Ron you I mean she hated the part of the speech in which she set that context which she reminded Americans of what he stepped into. You know I think we need to start off with that that had to be the base to say this is what I came in here with. This is what I'm trying to do. We can't have this partisanship that we're going to sit on a hand and say no about everything that comes up. And now this this latest comment you know the whole situation with Brown I don't quite understand how the dynamic of everything that was going on is now you know technically maybe I'm not aware of everything that can take place within the public. That doesn't make sense to the average citizen when we were moving forward in the game plan to get universal health care. I mean my concern is that as an adult

middle class person is I don't want to lose everything I work with and some 13 distraught you know that I've got a serious illness and my wife is out of the house and we you know we lose everything we've had because of the health bill. So that is so they health care the fact that he said he will continue to fight for the health care bill is important to you. Exactly the job situation is no doubt about it it's got to be on his agenda for the populace. I mean that's a concern I'm working a lot of people aren't working. I mean definitely this is it is the number one issue now. But we cannot let this health care upping stop. I mean we've got you know we're the only civilized nation out there without a health plan. Thank you. Ron thank you so much for your call. Oh you. You're welcome guys. Continue the you know the conversation we enjoyed listening. Thank you. Professor Darien the fact that he insisted that he was not going to walk away from health care is going to continue to fight for it.

But yet that was mentioned 32 minutes in. How do you received it. Because this caller says this is very important we can drop it. Well I think it was the pragmatic side. He's got just dealt a pretty tough hand with the election in Massachusetts. So it's understandable why that would be buried somewhat in not in the lead but buried in the content of the speech might have been been changed after the election I assume because the speech was written before that. But I think also he understands and he explicitly said the anger and frustration out there by inaction. If there is any kind of mood that most closely sort of relates to populist feelings these days I think it's he's tapped that anger and frustration and people don't look up it's going to boil over. Do you think that he tapped. Enough public response so that just as the caller said people will go back to their congresspersons and say yeah I'm mad about a lot of stuff but this healthcare thing is very important to me.

Did you did you hear that was that strong enough Ted Widmer in my opinion no it wasn't. I mean I do think it was a good speech but I think he could have called people out a little more than he did in the Republican opposition in particular. I agree with Ron that that paragraph about how many problems he inherited was very important but he should have started with it I think that to tell the story that way to say Look everything I've done and failed to do is in the context of how bad things were a year ago he seems a little embarrassed by the stimulus. He said he hated it he compared it to a root canal but that was a very important act. And it probably prevented things from getting much much worse and that's not really in the story right now we're just unhappy and I think he needs to tell the story that he prevented something much worse from happening and he's got to focus on the opposition to what he's trying to do and the Republicans have been very effective in Congress in blocking him and he needs to bring that about out into the limelight so that people can write their

congressman because there's a real partisan war going on and he needs to win it. Now he did say himself that he should have done as he said I better job of explaining the health care bill and going into the speech a number of critics said he's just not been good at the messaging. Would you both agree. I would. It's funny to say that because he's obviously a great great communicator right. Yeah he is he's using genius to giving speeches but he did not sell healthcare well at all. And I think he gave two or three very powerful speeches I liked his Nov Nobel Prize address a lot I thought his speech in Cairo was good but with complicated government policy he doesn't always sell it that well and there is a an impulse always towards the consensual and at moments in politics and at the top of the heap when you're the president you're past consensus sometimes you just have to say this is what we're going to do and this is my vision and I think we need a little more of that. Do you think it will go down as one of the good speeches the great speeches where will be referring to it in history

books later. I agree with Ted I think that we don't really measure presidents worth by a state of the Union address. It's more when you know there's a pressing global issue even domestic issues like racism or the war on terror. That president's rise to the occasion with some exceptions I think like Roosevelt you know really threw down the gauntlet to his critics and he says I welcome your hatred. So you just got the job done this time. Yeah I think this on the part of you know the partisanship is going to be necessary in the future. All right. Thanks very much to you both. I'm Kelli Crossley we've been analyzing President Obama's address with two of the best brains in the area Ted Widmer and James to Darian Ted Widmer is curator of the John Carter Brown Library at Brown University. He's also a former Clinton speechwriter. James to Darien is the Watson Institute research professor of international studies at Brown University. He's also a documentary filmmaker whose latest film Human Terrain is coming out this year.

Thank you again for joining us. Up next we'll meet a local Lesley's heading off to Vancouver for the Winter Olympics. We'll be back after this break. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Fuller craft museum presenting Warren McKenzie legacy of an American Potter spending 50 years in the life of the twentieth century master craftsman extended through January 30 first at Fuller craft museum online at Fuller craft dot org and from the members of the WGBH leadership circle. Benefits include invitations for special radio events and sneak peaks for WGBH television series. Learn more at WGBH dot org. Why why why eighty nine point seven because of new local

programs like the Cali Crossley Show. I think you need to speak to the fact that for so long the data came from men about women. Absolutely and you know we tend to forget that it was only in 1993 that it was really mandated that women and minorities be included in trials and gave guidelines around that that is not that long ago. We are the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH if WGBH is your trusted source for what's happening in the world of art literature and music thing consider supporting our efforts with a contribution of $6 and 25 cents a month. When you do eighty nine point seven will say thanks with a DVD copy of the law. It is for this for Masterpiece Classic It is natural it will be different. You can help make a difference at WGBH by making your contribution securely online at WGBH dot org. This is eighty nine point seven dollars each. Boston's NPR station for ideas and discussion with the takeaway and the

world. The new eighty nine point seven W.. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. That's the theme composed by John Williams the Olympian thing and John Williams conducted the Boston Pops up destroying one thousand eighty thousand one thousand ninety three. And he scored the music for many films that we love. We are joined by two local athletes who are heading to Vancouver for the Winter Olympics. Michelle Gorney is one of the country's top snowboarders and parallel giant slalom. She joins us from Dennis Massachusetts. And Andrew Newell is a cross-country skier. He joins us from stress barre Vermont. Andrew and Michelle thank you for joining us. Thanks for having us. Well

I can't I mean I feel like going to take the torch out after I hear that theme it's very exciting. I have to say. Do you all feel it as well. The excited fun. Please get started get you going for sure. And do you. Yeah sure I mean if you're on the phone if you're only you know once every four years and has a really special special meaning for sure so it's neat to hear that. Now I have to make a true confession. The only thing I know about skiing in winter sports except for of course ice skating I know that's the wimpy sport the girls sport is you know sitting in the lounge with the hot toddy in the fireplace going in a book. That's about it for me. So I have a great appreciation for what the two of you are doing at the top of your game. Lots of fun. I mean I obviously find that a lot too sometimes but yeah it's fun to be out there and you know get some fresh air. Well Michele since you're speaking why don't you tell folks what parallel giant slalom is. It's snowboarding in I had to go online to look at a picture of it.

It looks like a kind of a skinny snowboard but a fat ski that you're on. Yeah kind of and basically it's somewhat racing and we do head to head events kind of double double elimination until you have a winner. And what you're competing is a something that has a technical aspect of you have to be very precise in Describe a little bit of that. Yeah I mean making. It turns honest now where do you know you your body have to be definitely in a certain position to hold the turn and to hold the G-forces and everything and we only have one edge a foot as opposed to a skier who has you know kind of their weight can be distributed onto in them so it's a very technical kind of you know I mean a little bit different than like a half pipe or something that you can see in a little bit more regularly. How did you get interested in this and how long have you been doing I mean obviously been doing it most of your career here but what made you interested. I don't know I just always like to go fast I was you know people would be like oh let's go hit the jump and I'd be like OK I'll race you there. So I've always you know kind of wanted to go fast and I was just like

snowboarding right from the start. So I don't know skiing I was with you I was drinking hot toddies and was skiing and I think as they started snowboarding I wanted to be out on the on the Hill all the time. So OK Michelle you have to confess that I've read that you said your style is fast and stupid. And that means what. I don't know I take a lot of chances and you know sometimes I don't take the smartest line but I take the fastest line and which sometimes you know I end up in the woods. So you give and take. OK Andy let me talk to you you grew up in Vermont and one would expect if you grew up in Vermont you had to ski. But I think people think of downhill skiing as the sport that would be prominent in Vermont but yet you cross-country ski. You're the tops in the field. Yeah cross riskiness actually it's a fairly big sport here in Vermont and New England X specially there's there's tons of cross risk here as I think actually Vermont has more cross-country ski areas than Alpine skiers

go. Yeah. So there there's kind of a cool unique culture of Crestor skiing here in the state. And I grew up in you ski get out that's pretty similar to what a lot of kids grow up skiing in in this area and looking up to some of the Vermont legends of our sport guys like Bill Koch was a legendary Vermont skier and he's won the first and only Olympic medal for United States and cross for skiing and that was back in 1976. There's a lot of culture in the skiing world here in Vermont I think. Now you were inspired as an 8th grade student and thought then that you would you know head toward the Olympics. Is that right. Yeah well I've I've been ski racing since I was since I was basically big enough to walk and I was in my first curious is at five years old and then as an eighth grade student. I decided to take it to the next level and attend the stratabound own school which is a ski and snowboard school at the base of Stratton Oakmont.

It's a really unique place and it's a great opportunity for a young high school and in middle school age kids to be able to train for their sport so it's kind of at that point that I that I thought you know maybe I do have a chance at one day making the Olympic team and that's kind of where a big motivation started and for me was attending the stratabound school. Well it's quite an honor to make these teams. You both have won a lot of world cup competitions. Some people have described you as one of the fastest cross-country skiers which seems to go across against the point because I thought cross-country skiing was a little bit slower than downhill. Funny. Yeah well I've been. I get called that before because I compete and most of the. Sprint competitions which is a fairly new event in Crestview seen the first Olympics president was back in 2002. But it's basically set up a lot like skier cross where six athletes race against each other around a short loop that's about a mile long and then the first two people to cross the finish line then advance to the next round so it's a really exciting fast event.

On cross if you ski which is something that maybe people don't think about when they when they first hear the words cross your ski and it is fast and exciting but it really is a cool event and all the races come down to these really close finishes and you see these guys doing doing splits in London for the line. So speed is a very important factor in this event which is the one I'll be competing in in Vancouver. Michelle now this will be your second Olympics. You said the one in the one that you attended in 2006 your nerves got to you so you couldn't do as well as you wanted to but you're ready this time right. Yeah I think any time you know you going to deal I think. First time is pretty crazy at the circus and everyone wants a piece of you and you just you get pulled in a thousand different directions and it is really no way you can prepare for kind of the hoopla that is the Olympics. So you know hopefully this time I have my head on straight. And I know what I'm getting myself into so well think. Hopefully it'll go better to both of you is this is what seems to be one of those events and opportunities where you just feel really

American. With a capital A. I mean you hear that music you're you know you're wearing the team uniform is that right. That's what I feel as watching you. Do you feel that you are endearing to one. OK go ahead Michelle. Yeah I would say like opening ceremonies as cliche as it sounds like when you walk in to the opening ceremonies and you know everyone's wearing identical outfits and you know everyone's rocking the red white and blue and it's pretty crazy just like even though I don't know something about being American you know everyone gets an devil about it and you just run in like guns blazing and everyone's like oh it's the final band and it definitely it's it's such a unique thing especially just be part of the Team USA. And you know Michelle and I are competing through different disciplines into different sports but for that you know two weeks once every four years we're kind of on the same team.

And that's something that's pretty cool feeling especially there's so many different. When are sports you know. I don't know that I don't know the first thing about a sport like curling or figure skating or something like that but when we're all together in the Olympic Village and and we're we're all in one big team it's like you're glued to the TV and you're in your dorm room there in the village watching curling which is something that you never really be doing but really liked about all these other other teams and and other teammates that you have. Quickly what advice would you have for somebody listening to you and wanting to be where you are in a few years. And I would say just you know set specific goals and stick with it. I can only speak of my experience with trust. And it's one of those sports that definitely takes a lot of hard work and training. You know you have to be among some of the the best athletes in the world in order to compete across a few scheme Olympic events but at the same time it's all about having fun. And I think that's what's kept me in a sport for so long is really enjoying each day that

you get to be outside in training and instead of kind of behind a desk and doing good works like that. So for me I just kind of try to enjoy the process. So I guess that would be my advice to any young athletes Michel. I agree with the having a fun part I think that definitely very important and you know take chances like you're not going to get anywhere playing it safe and just kind of scraping by. So you know it's kind of been my style I think you know growing up in my career and you know I take chances sometimes I work at the workout and sometimes it doesn't. But no matter what you know you're happy with what happened because you went for it. Well thanks to you both Michel Gorney is one of the country's top snowboarders and parallel giant slalom. And Andrew Newell is a cross-country skier from straps barre Vermont. We'll be watching. I'll be watching as you know next to the fire with a drink in you know looking up from the book. So good luck to you. Thank you. Yesterday author activist and historian Howard Zinn died.

He was 87 and lived in Arbonne Del Massachusetts 30 years ago he published a People's History of the United States which has gone on to sell more than two million copies. The History Channel has translated his book into a 90 minute special The People Speak. He joined us two weeks ago to talk about this project. We'd like to replay parts of that interview that were quintessential Zen if you had a voice to to update your book with to you know right now somebody new who you choose to put in a new book. Yeah. With with new voices of today is there anybody you would add I would add the voice of the 12 year old girl who testified before the Vermont legislature they were discussing whether to make it legal to have same sex marriage. This 12 year old girl appeared before the Vermont legislature and she said the daughter of two women. They are my parents and we're a happy family. It was amazing testimony.

We would use a word I would use the words of an immigrant in this country an illegal immigrant saying why. Why don't you treat me like everybody else. Why am I illegal. Why should any human being can should be considered illegal. Yeah I would have those voices in a new edition. When Howard Zinn said that to me he was sitting across here from me in the studio and he teared up. He was so passionate about this history and so passionate about these voices and wanting to expand the audience to hear Americans the very American voices the enum the multitude of the very American voices. I want to play another clip from that interview. You got to know that some people think that the voices some of the voices and the sentiments from some of these people would not be considered patriots they would say these dissenters and protestors are are not patriots. That's right. They're up. There are people who think that if you criticize the government of the United States you are unpatriotic. These

people have not read the Declaration of Independence which by the way Matt Damon reads in our documentary that racial independence makes it clear governments are not holy governance are set up to achieve certain rights when governments become destructive of those rights the right to life liberty the pursuit of happiness. Then there it was the right of the people to overthrow those governments. Governments should not be obeyed simply because they're the voice of authority. And so to be patriotic from our point of view certainly from my point of view to be patriotic means to support the principles that the government is supposed to stand for. But to oppose the government when it violates those principles. That's true patriotism. Howard Zinn when he was here in the studio talking in another part of the interview and made it clear that while he respected and supported President Obama that he thought it was incumbent upon the people the ones that he described as true patriots to come forward

and push the president on to be the all that he could be and that he thought the only way that this happens is that when people are involved in their government in a very deep way he first gave his People's History of the United States too. He didn't give it to him but met Damon's mother gave the book to her son Matt Damon the actor who these many years later decided to turn it into the documentary which features any number of actors and actresses some of them quite well-known reading the words of the voices that he highlighted in his book. And the point that he wanted to make is that when you. Put history reduce it to not reduce it but really enhance it to the voices of the people that anybody can access this whether they be 10 years old as Matt Damon was when he first read the book or whether they be any age along the spectrum and he was very proud of the material's ability to attract people of all

ages along the spectrum. So many people have already commented on what a loss he will be too particular to this community. A lifelong resident of Cambridge a teacher it be you and others have commented about the loss that he will have in terms of his own voice. And so Howard Zinn dead at 87 whose life's work was to highlight the voices of the American Patriots as he would put it his own voice stilled. And he was someone who legacy will be that he left those voices available for all of us to hear and appreciate at this point. In the words of Noam Chomsky his approach to history was novel and that will be the legacy that many people remember him by. Howard Zinn again dead at 87. You can keep on top of the Kelly Crossley

Show by visiting our website WGBH dot org slash Cal across Lee. We'd love to hear your thoughts about Howard Zinn on our Facebook page or on our Twitter page. Call in and write in and give us your thoughts about Howard Zinn and all of our guests as a matter of fact. This is the Calla Crossley Show. Tomorrow we'll be talking about the News Of The Week That Was and wasn't. We like to take a look at news that's on the front page and will feature our regular Friday afternoon Frasier called Rag time our review of the tabloids and pop culture. This is the Calla Crossley Show. Today's program was engineered by Jane pick and produced by Chelsea Merz. Our production assistant is Anna white knuckled me. And we're a production of WGBH radio. Bostons NPR News and culture station.