WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. It's a crude awakening even though BP has containment cap has recovered thousands of barrels of oil. The broken well continues to spew up to 25000 barrels a day undersea and with the hurricane season underway what will happen if another Katrina hits the Gulf of Mexico. We'll explore the additional stress that this spill could have on our coastal ecosystems. We'll also look at how a local oil spill 40 years ago in Buzzards Bay can inform today's Gulf response. From there we continue our election coverage. We top it off with our regular Monday feature local made good conversation with Marvin Gilmore Jr. the first African-American in New England to be awarded the Legion of Honor for his role in liberating France. Up next Coast to Coast from Louisiana to Normandy. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying. President Obama says it's

still too early to say just how much spilled oil BP s latest operation is capturing. We are still trying to get a better determination as to how much it's capturing and we are pushing BP very hard to make sure that all the facilities are available so that as the oil is being captured it's also. Being separated from probably the president updating reporters hours after BP said it believed its cap method in the Gulf was capturing more oil than before. Meanwhile Coast Guard Admiral Thad Allen today clarified comments he made over the weekend about the Gulf Coast oil spill cleanup being finished by fall. NPR's Ari Shapiro reports the new timeline stretches on for years. Some scientists were baffled when the man leading the government's oil spill response said Sunday that the cleanup would be done in the fall. Environmentalist believe the impact of the spill will last for years or decades. And a White House briefing Allen said he does not disagree dealing with the oil spill on the surface.

He's going to go on for a couple of months after that will be taken care of long term issues of restoring the environment to habitats and stuff will be it will be years. Yes I've separated out two different functions I guess. Allen told reporters that more oil is being captured from the leaking well than before in the last three days it increased from 6000 to 11000 barrels a day he said. Another platform is on its way to the site that will be able to capture even more oil. Ari Shapiro NPR News the White House. You're Asian and Middle Eastern leaders are attending a security summit in Turkey while Israel is represented by a lower ranking diplomat. Israel is facing more diplomatic fire for its confrontation with a Gaza bound aid flotilla last week in which nine people were killed. Veteran journalist Helen Thomas Dean of the White House press corps retiring her employer Hearst News Service made the announcement today. Eighty nine year old Thomas leaves after making controversial remarks about Israel. U.S. Defense officials say they have arrested a U.S. Army intelligence analyst suspected of leaking thousands of classified security documents and U.S. combat videos to the Web site. Wiki links NPR's

Rachel Martin reports. According to military officials in Baghdad 22 year old Specialist Bradley Manning has been placed in pretrial confinement and is currently being detained in Kuwait. Manning is deployed with the 2nd Brigade 10th Mountain Division in Baghdad. Wired magazine reported that Manning was turned in by a former computer hacker who had been in contact with him online. The man said he was concerned when Manning started bragging about leaking confidential video and documents to the website wiki leaks including the controversial video of a 2007 U.S. helicopter strike in Baghdad in which U.S. forces apparently fired on Iraqi civilians. In a statement released by the Pentagon Defense officials say they take the management of classified information seriously because it poses a threat to national security and operations abroad. The investigation they say is ongoing. This is NPR. Both Koreas reshuffling its political leadership. State media report that during a rare second session for parliament leader Kim Jong il's brother in law was promoted to a powerful

military post. The move is seen as paving the way for Kim's youngest son to succeed his father. NPR's Mike Schuster. It surely seems like it's a broader sign of transition happening in North Korea. These kind of changes have been talked about for more than a year and it's been generally assumed that Kim Jong il once his youngest son to succeed him. What happened today seems to be formalizing. And the government structures in North Korea making that understood to the nation and other leaders and other functioning bodies of government in North Korea. Australia's communication minister says he's not waging a vendetta against the Internet search engine Google. More from Stuart Cohen Communications Minister Stephen Conroy called Google creepy. After the company revealed they collected personal data from unsecured wife networks around Australia while taking pictures for their street view map service. On Sunday the federal police launched an investigation into whether that violated privacy laws.

Google claims they're being targeted because they oppose a proposed government internet filter that would block online porn and other adult content. Con Royce says that's not true. I raised these concerns about these giant companies Google Facebook and others who don't seem to believe that these rules should apply to them based in the US. We don't care what the European Union says and we don't care what the Israeli government says. Conrad claims the investigation wasn't his idea. He says the attorney general called for it after numerous complaints from the public. For NPR News I'm Stuart Cohen in Sydney. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from constant contact dedicated to helping small businesses and nonprofits build a strong customer relationships with email marketing constant contact dot com. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. I am here today to talk about GBH is 2010 mass

decision. Joining me is Maurice Cunningham professor of political science at UMass Boston and he has an interesting take on how when it comes to the governor's race how elitism could actually work in the candidate's favor. This is part of our continuing election coverage. Maurice Cunningham welcome. Thanks Kelly thanks for having me on. Your piece is entitled in defense of elites. And you say that our political leaders should embrace elitism not run from it. Tell us why. Well I think what I'm talking about elites I mean people who are well-read who are accomplished and take some pride in that accomplishment. And I'm seeing some of the candidates running from frankly some pretty good solid accomplishments that they should be proud of. In fact in your piece I love this line you say identification with elites is a big political problem in this year of pick up trucks and barn coats that say obviously a reference to Senator Scott Brown and the way that he structured his well at least the messaging around his campaign to say he was just a regular guy.

Well sure and all candidates try to appeal to the regular guy. So it's a democracy you have to do it. But on the other hand be who you really are as well and they're governing the state as a complex enterprise we need people who are up to the job and can show they're up to the job. Well you know what why don't you define what you mean by elitism because you say that you don't mean it's a silver spoon in the mouth kind of person. That's not really what you mean. That's not what I mean at all I think. I think in the article I point out the the the father of mordant done if you want to be governor is from New England our stock recy educated at that Business School and Yale so that's not what I mean. I mean I mean studious serious well-read thoughtful individuals who not only. Listen to the people but who reverberate back to us and teach us and educate us about what the duties and responsibilities of government are and how we should go about fulfilling

those responsibilities. Now given your definition let's go down the list and you tell me who's elite and who isn't Charlie better. BAKER I think is an elite. His base is elites in business and in media and in government and the problem I've talked about in the article is that he's running away from it it's it's a little bit like you're the smartest kid in high school when you're trying to hide that so you can appeal to popular kids. But I don't think it's a very very apt for him at all. How could he position that so that you can be a regular guy and still be the smartest guy in the room. Well I think I think people are looking for solutions from government and he's offering some of the solutions that people want and I think he has the capacity to deliver on that should that should be his appeal. You know people are upset with government in a lot of ways they're upset that they think government is doing too much of some things and and not doing them well and I think Charlie Bacon has a

record that says that he's he's possibly a candidate who can fulfill some of those wishes but right now he's not making that case I don't think. OK Tim Cahill. Well Tim Cahill clearly form a sub shop owner in Quincy city councilor is is not to the manner born but on the other hand he's been the state treasurer for eight years and at different times has made the case I think in February when the governor's budget came out he criticized it but then said he didn't understand enough about the budget to be specific. And on another occasion he went on FOX News of all things are Glenn the GLENN BECK program and told Glenn Beck that health care was going to bankrupt the Commonwealth This was only about two weeks we we found out later after he had signed off to Wall Street that the Commonwealth is a very sickly sound. And so you know the state treasurer is part of the job as being credible with Wall Street don't run from it. That's what you do. Well he does spend some time you know letting people know I think messaging that he's

a regular guy. Do you think that's successful or do people still categorize him as a leader. By your definition I don't think so I don't think he's going to get categorized by elite but I think he has to he has to speak to his competence in terms of government. You know he's done it he's done a credible job as Treasurer speak to it don't appear that my heavens I've been in state government for eight years and I don't know anything about the budget and you know I signed something to Wall Street saying the budget is in great shape but now I go one on Glenn Beck's program of all places and say no it's not. You know he has a record of government stand on the record. OK. Our current governor Deval Patrick. You know Deval Patrick is unquestionably the one of these candidates who comes out of an impoverished background and. In every almost every citizen in Massachusetts now will have heard him tell the story of him coming here from Chicago an impoverished young man being educated at

Milton Academy and then on to Harvard and really it's a wonderful American story of the rise from straitened circumstances to elite places in the law or in government on corporate boards and I think he's the one who hasn't really doesn't really run from it. But maybe that's because he's got the background that he does. He doesn't have to run from the fact that he's a person of great accomplishment. Now you didn't mention her in her piece but there is another candidate and that's Jill Stein and she is of some great accomplishment as well. Yes but I have a little I have a little bias in life when talking about politics. I tend to like those who have a chance to actually fulfill the office she's not going to be entering the office of governor. And so I sort of confine myself to the other three but you're right Dr. Stein is is a person of some accomplishment herself. OK so you know. The word I think in my mind anyway that it seemed to be become center stage politically during the 2008 campaign I don't know that I've heard elite thrown around so

liberally not to find a term on it as I did during that campaign and most of it was was directed at President Barack Obama. And I found this piece from CNN during the time when everybody was calling him elite this in the late that and there is a quote from a Dr. Drew Westen a professor of psychology and psychiatry at Emory University in Atlanta and author of a book called The Political Brain. And here's what the quote says if you think you should be president by definition you are an elitist only because you believe that of the 300 million people in America you're the best person to run it. There can't be a more elitist statement than that so he said it does the same hold true if you're trying to lead hundreds of thousands of people in the state of Massachusetts. It's absolutely the case for some of the readers and or the elite has become a political pejorative. And it and it shouldn't be. You know when you go to your meeting with a doctor or something for some important surgery in my case or point procedure I'm looking up on the wall reading the degrees making sure that

they're there. I want to make sure I'm getting somebody who is highly accomplished and competent and yet we in politics some of the time we sort of brushed that aside and think gosh we shouldn't have people of accomplishment doing it it makes no sense at all. Well OK. So now it's out there it is a pejorative. People seem to feel as though you being an elitist whether you're the candidate and or the people who are hearing it about you that it's a negative thing. How do we in Massachusetts as you point out in your piece home of the elites turn that around. Well I think there has to come from some recognition that what we are about to vote on in a few months is a very very important complex job it's a complex on a policy level it's complex in dealing with other elites in the legislature in the courts in the media in business and in all in and across a range of things and that requires a great deal of depth

in a person. We of course we want a person to who can connect with us on a personal level I think Scott Brown did that very well. But we want that part of a person a candidate but we shouldn't forget that this is an important and complex job but we we want to see somebody who's up to it. OK. Well you know let me ask this question some might say OK it's great to have a smart guy and you'd like to have your smartest person possibly. But if I don't like the rest of them if I can have a beer with them that's the that's the going thing right now. So what it is isn't enough if I have the pretty smart person who seems to be able to relate to me and can connect to me more importantly communicate with me about the issues that I feel are important. Well I think on some level I think it is it's certainly politically important to do that and and the ability to to understand and have empathy with people genuine empathy with the constituents I think is very important

but you know probably the best example of why the I have a deal with him formulation I think doesn't work very well is in 2000 a lot more people probably would have wanted to be able to W. Bush than with Al Gore and we're still suffering from the hangover from that idea 10 years later. Yeah but people still even despite that and you know they would agree with you even the people that were very big. President Bush fans and they have now said OK well there were some issues with his leadership. They would still say but gee you know some of these other people some of these are the pointy hat people are just too hard to communicate with they don't seem to have me in mind when policy is being shaped. They don't seem to get my experience. I think that's true to a certain level but that's not that's not true of everybody who comes down the pike to be a leader. You know Bill Weld was a brilliant guy. I mean just wonderful supple rich intellect and he was he had a lot of fun with people. I think people I think he was able to appeal and connect with

people and that's just one example so they're not mutually exclusive qualities I don't think. Well you got talk radio beat an elite ism into the ground every day and people are getting the message. What would you suggest to get people to rethink elitism as a positive. Well it just takes a little bit of thought I think and and that's what elites do as well as they ponder things and think about it as well. I think I'm talking about those of us who are motorcyclists but I will tell you that if I go I go down that AM dial because some of the talk programs. It's all reaction and emotion. And we can't govern our lives that way. It doesn't make sense. Well yeah but you know you responding from the candidate's point of view I was really responding from the voter's point of view. I hear you. But how do how do we you know how to what can happen so that there is a rethinking of that from the voter's perspective it.

From the borders perspective I guess I'm not quite certain I think. I do think people have to take this seriously and I don't think listening to Talk Radio on the AM dial not your program is helpful and I do. But I do think that trying to engage with each other as citizens is very helpful and talk about these the problems that we face in a serious manner and to recognize things like you know if we if we want services we can't have tax cuts all the time and if we want tax cuts all the time and some of the time we have to do without some of the services that we're expecting. So if it requires some maturity on the part of the voters as well where you really ask them a lot I've got to tell you what you do end your piece by saying Ha going to lead us today so I'll give that charge to our listener. We've been talking to Maurice Cunningham He's a professor of political science at UMass Boston. You can read his piece on elite ism at Commonwealth magazine dot Tom Morris Cunningham thank you so much for joining us. Been delightful thanks Kelly.

With the. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Brookline bank announcing the grand opening of two new Brookline bank branches in Wellesley Lower Falls and at the crossroads Plaza in Burlington grand opening celebrations in June. Brookline bank blog dot com. And from Comcast. Last year donating 11 million dollars to local charities and TV and Internet services valued at three point eight million annually to schools and libraries in eastern Massachusetts and New Hampshire. Moore at comcast dot com. Hi I'm Laura Carlo from WGBH is ninety nine point five. All classical

station. If you enjoy having more time to spend with NPR news here on eighty nine point seven. And more time with classical music on ninety nine point five. And I hope to see you at the WGBH studios June 19th for the first annual ninety nine point five all classical festival. Purchased tickets online at WGBH dot org. And. Informed local political talk. There's a lot to talk about here in Boston. I describe my show as of these days show Cali crossly. We take a topic and look at it over a period of time talking Boston brown seem to come from nowhere the media didn't seem to be able to detect this surge until it was detectable by polls. Weekdays at 1 on the new eighty nine point seven WGBH radio. I'm Brian O'Donovan host of the culture. Sure and I hope you can join singer songwriter Robbie O'Connell

and me as we venture to Scotland this September. Learn more at WGBH stop halt slash learning tours. I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show With hurricane season officially underway. We're looking at what the additional stress of the oil spill could mean for the coastal ecosystems. I'm joined by Joseph Kelley Joseph Kelley is chairman of the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Maine where he's also a professor of geology and oceanography. Professor Kelly welcome. Thank you very much Kelly. I used to be at the University of New Orleans. So this isn't so distant for me. And that's exactly why we wanted to talk to you. You're the guy that actually saw Katrina coming before others and understood the impact of Katrina. So people have compared this oil spill to control in a kind of Katrina times 10. Is that how you see what's happening there from a weather perspective.

Well it's certainly a hurricane on top of this oil makes it a difficult problem. They Astley vastly more difficult bringing that oil into land and into terrestrial environment. We just have never imagined something like that. You know the thing that makes the rest of us those of us who know nothing about all of this very nervous is that the big experts like yourself keep saying we've never seen it. We don't know how do we. You know what do we do with what the vast knowledge that you have and trying to understand what exactly is. Could possibly happen there. When Hurricane season is in full swing. Well you know many people would tend to be conservative most scientists waiting for things to happen before jumping out and doing something. But you know if you're a politician you know you maybe you want to do something you want to be seen visibly taking action like building the sand berm they've been talking about across the many of the title passes in the lazy Ana. It's a very

hard call. Well now here's the thing the hurricane predicting folks NOAA have already said then officially hurricane season started on June 1. They're going to be 15 named storms this season and eight hurricanes and of course we the biggest ones are in August. So exactly what happened scientifically. Should a hurricane hit this oil because we've already heard now from all the experts that the oil is not going to be cleaned up. Nowhere close to it. By August in fact we'll be lucky if that's the first time we see some of that clean up happening is by August so what does that mean exactly. Well you want to see where the hurricane tracks where does it come in does it originate in the Gulf of Mexico. That would be pretty bad. Why. Why would it be out there. Well the hurricane could go anywhere it could move directly toward Mississippi Alabama. It could move over toward the west coast of Florida and it will be pushing the oil the wind and the waves will be pushing the oil landward whichever direction it might go.

But alternatively the hurricane could as many often do come through come over Florida even and enter from the Florida side driving the oil ahead of it toward the Mississippi Delta and possibly even over toward West releasing or in Texas. Now I'm assuming because I'm a person that doesn't I'm not the expert that a hurricane hitting the oil is a bad thing but are there any scenarios in which you know hitting the oil or mixing it up actually might be better for the situation. You know let's put a silver lining in it sure. If we mix it up if we agitate it we can break up those massive slicks into smaller particles which can disperse a little bit easier in the water maybe even enhance some evaporation. Yeah but boy that's being that's a long shot. Yeah really. OK so let's assume then that a hurricane hitting this in this scenario is going to make it far far worse and does that mean then that

all of the efforts to keep that oil off of the beaches just are lost because it would be speeded up if you will the push to the shore. If you're a scientist and you look at those probabilities which seem very very serious the storm is very likely to come very likely to make landfall someplace where there's oil around then. Then it's highly likely it's going to come onto the beaches and into the marshes and spending three hundred fifty million dollars to put up a little sand berm would with that point seem pretty pretty useless. Well that is a pretty useless now not because we're in hurricane season and I mean come listen we had bad storms here this weekend and I was actually thinking in preparation for this interview thank you my God if this is 10 times this and a hurricane with that oil I can't imagine how it will be far worse than ten times it will be unimaginably worse. You know 75 mile an hour winds a minimum and the ways they kick up the sand berms would be lost to me would be a wasted effort if you did that because they would be overwhelmed.

So we're really those that are putting that sand out there and spending three hundred fifty odd million dollars or proposing to a really gambling that there won't be a storm because if there is that's wasted that's gone. It won't do any good at all. So is that the worst case scenario and what does that mean for the coastal ecosystems. Well I mean that's that's a bad financial situation watched a bunch of sand and money but for the ecosystem having that oil spread far inland I mean people from New England don't know how flat it is in the leasing and putting a storm surge of only a handful of feet high is going to move that water with the oil on top and in it miles inland possibly into fresh water environments. Cypress swamps maybe even into the uplands of coastal Mississippi and Alabama. Which is a whole other strategy to try to to try to deal with that problem. It is a very difficult problem. Admiral Thad Allen who is the government's point man in this Gulf Coast spill

over the weekend described this as a war on four coastal areas specifically but your expertise is in Louisiana in terms of land loss. What what are we talking about here and give us a little background on what the research you were doing in Louisiana. Louisiana is losing land now we call it land it's salt marshes. You might not think of it as land in New England but killing twenty five thirty five square miles of land to open water every year and have been for some time having this oil come in. It's highly likely that it will kill a lot of the vegetative plants that that you know that make this marsh. And as a result accentuate an already unimaginably bad situation. We have worse land laws and worse than that the oil that get into the marshes as the marsh erodes it's just going to come out again at some later date. So it's hard to put many good spins on this.

What does it mean exactly when you say land lost because I have an image in my mind of this. There's no more beach but I think it means something deeper than that. Oh it's I'm sorry it certainly does. The beaches are out there on the outer barriers of the delta. But as you come into the interior it's salt marshes grasslands and then father and there are swamps trees instead of grass plants and their wetlands. They're always wet to walk on sometimes even undulate when you walk on them and when they disappear they they they just a road you get a little pool loping up on one and it'll join with another and after a few decades you look out and there's just no land anymore it's all open water you can boat across it. Wow. And so that nothing can grow in there. I mean nobody can survive in that no living thing. Well Easter is love those little pockets of water I mean that's that's great for oysters but not with oil in it. Yeah you know the oil is. Boy it's just real bad everywhere. I mean you would break down over a decade maybe maybe

sooner but for that for the short term certainly it's going to be pretty rough. Well we know from looking at some of the work done by the Woods Hole scientists that you know there was a spill here in 1969 along the coast of Cape Cod and they still found in 2007 they were finding evidence of lingering oil. That to me is pretty scary. Well we've had oil spills also in Maine and I was on an oil spill Oversight Committee and we may be the salt marshes were black and it was they smelled unbelievable. They made the decision not to do anything here rather than burn it or you know remove it with backhoes. And I've led field trips to the site for the last three or four years which is looking but the plants are back everything is normal. I would not doubt that a geochemist could detect petroleum someplace in there but we were unable to see any changes in the abundance or number of organisms the animals living on the tidal flats in the marshes. It looks the same oil you know in an

ecosystem sense it appears to be the same. So maybe we'll be optimistic and think that the you know the bacteria will break this oil down and and render it relatively harmless. But the quantities here are a lot more than we've seen in Cape Cod and in Portland. Well now in that in the organisms that you saw that seemed to be the same where these organisms were trying to eat because I keep thinking about the fishing industry and how it's devastated and now as a consumer I'm thinking I'm going to eat shrimp that's been sitting out there in that oil. Yeah even 10 years from now it's a concern. That's a real concern no no the I'm thinking of microscopic organisms ones that may have actually died or been killed or simply come back the next year from. I'm not a biologist so I can't even go into that direction but. Worms and things of that sort that survived continue to to live on. But shellfish No no that's that's very different a bigger thing. Birds fish they'll be the

real the real sufferers here. Well as we've seen the birds are having a hard time in some of the areas they. They even have to put more oil on them. You know just to get to the point of washing them which is pretty amazing in and of itself. But Professor There is a there are at least a thousand or more scientists on the ground there trying to figure this all out in their various arenas. What how can they be. Because you know nobody has confidence in BP. So how can they be successful I guess if you will in figuring out what is the best way not to contain it but just to proceed so that we can do the best job we can do to protect the eco systems. I think there's probably a lot of smart people there and my guess is that distributed intelligence all these people will be making decisions on the ground that many of which most of which will be the right decision. I think the ultimate top down approach of this is how we'll solve this maybe in a big scheme is fine.

When you get down to those details it's going to be command decisions made in those marshes that will be that will make all the difference. So I think where we're lucky we have that expertise. I wonder from a personal standpoint and someone with your level of expertise in this arena what went through your head when you first heard about the oil spill. Very much what what went through the president his advisors that we don't usually get big oil spills from production platforms that that this would be taken care of. You know you can name one or two that we have had problems but I thought you know blowout preventers will take care of this. It's one that failed that I really began to read the news much more closely because really the backup as we know now is months away. And I was just absolutely shocked that the engineers didn't have the capability to turn that off. And when you realize they didn't how did what was the next thought you had Well the obvious problem with hurricane season to me I mean I knew it would be coming and it would come while the

oil was still leaking and ideas and then wondering about the Gulf Stream you know is it going to get over to Florida through the loop current and you know where is it going to spread to it. Do you have months to start letting this stuff come out it's going to move around. And in fact that seems to be happening now. Now I looked a little bit in your background in it and you worked at one time with the mineral Services Management Center and manages services which I have to confess I never heard of until this oil spill and until Elizabeth burned burned Bohm who was the director of the Minerals Management Service was fired and she still far as the only firing that we know about related to the spill and what one of the things they do is issue permits to drilling rigs. But I wonder how you work there from 2003 to 2005. As you look back on it you know I don't know. Let me and I never worked for him and that's a contract with OK. I work for the state of the Union University Minerals Management Service is the second

largest source of income to the US Treasury. They leased offshore land they came to all the New England states Massachusetts included and said hey would you guys mind looking offshore in federal waters and seeing if there's any sand and gravel deposits or you know resources economic resources. And so they funded us to make basic maps of the offshore regions. Virtually all of the work that's been done in Maine was ultimately what was initially funded by them. This it seems to be far afield from from you know containing an oil spill I guess. You know I was trying to figure out how does him and this figure into all of this except for the issuance issuance of the permits to drilling rigs and and why that. I guess that first firing happened there and not perhaps in other departments. You know they they have the oversight role I mean the issuing of the permit is the last thing that happened the studies that go before it should have been looking very closely at you know at that at the plans that they that they hadn't they had made. But the M.S. is a vast organization and you know they're looking up here in New England that may be leasing

land to us for wind power and a number of other things. In fairness was there anyway because this thing is huge just for them to have over a period of time figured out that there were a deficient environmental and safety reviews and figured out that this could have this kind of impact horribly. You know politically the answer is in one level sure probably had you put effort into it not not it. No doubt in my mind. But politically when people were screaming you know drill baby drill. Well they were going to tell the AMA mass to start really restricting offshore production when there really has never been a big problem since Santa Barbara really in the US had a production platform. So realistically politically it doesn't seem likely that we should have expected in the mess to be going overboard as we do now and as we will in the future. They hadn't been a problem and so we really didn't look for a problem. Professor before we close I wonder if you could talk about the worst case scenario and the

best case scenario from where we are at this point. Worst case scenario sure multiple hurricanes coming from different directions driving oil you know into the Florida beaches into Louisiana maybe even west Louisiana off into Texas really spreading it around making cleanup really bad coupled with an inability to stop the oil from coming out. The Caps have been sort of a Band-Aid up to now maybe drilling won't succeed it probably will but the worst case is it just takes longer and longer and the oil keeps coming out and the it's really spread around. That makes cleanup very very difficult. And just makes it bad for everybody. Getting into the Gulf Stream and even contaminating some of the coral reefs off Florida just a horrible thought. The best case scenario they begin really able to to to get that oil up onto a barge and get it off the off the bottom stopping it from leaking and come maybe July late July.

They they get lucky they hit with the first well and they were able to pump cement down there and stop it. I mean that's not soon. But that's really the best scenario and no hurricanes of course that that would be just wonderful but no hurricane. Now as a person who has a great love for Louisiana I wonder if you had some comment about just looking from afar and saying what that what they're coping with there. I guess hard for most of us around here to realize what it's like for people who live off the land that fish they're just seeing their livelihood and that of their children disappear for the foreseeable future maybe for an entire generation. And so this whole helpless they can't really do anything. I mean it's so much bigger than than even you know a local parish or a town. It must really seem overwhelming to them. I also mean from a personal standpoint as one I think I got from reading some of your work that you really had a love for that part of the country.

Oh I do I like to eat too and think that seafood go to waste is a tragedy. Louisiana's problems are in many of the land loss problems and so with a largely a of our own making I mean with a we've caused these problems and now we're seeing them compound. I'm really sad. We're losing one of the great natural resources in North America the Mississippi Delta and now not only losing it we're turning it into something that is just going to be trashed. We never wish this on ourselves or on anyone else. And and here it is. Well that's the hope that at least maybe hurricane season will not be as bad as predicted and we can hope for that at least. Fingers. I've been speaking with Joseph Kelly He's chairman of the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Maine where he's also a professor of geology and oceanography. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Up next it's our regular Monday feature local made good. We'll be back after this break. Stay with.

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center dot com. You're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston is an NPR station for news context and analysis with MORNING EDITION. The takeaway and the Diane Rehm Show explore ideas with us all day long here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Hi I'm Brian O'Donovan host of a Celtic sojourn on eighty nine point seven WGBH. And I hope you can join me this September for the learning tourist trip to Scotland legendary musician Robbie O'Connell will be with us for the entire 60 excursion. We take in beautiful vistas travel to

historic villages and of course hear incredible music. All the details are online at WGBH dot org slash tulis. Emily Rooney and Cali Cross are talking Boston on the Radio weekdays from now. Two on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. It's time for our regular Monday feature local made good where we celebrate people whose creativity and individuality bring honor to New England. Yesterday marked the 66 anniversary of D-Day. And our guest today Marvin Gilmore Jr. had a direct connection to this day in history. He's the first African-American from New England to receive France's Legion of Honor Medal which he received for his service in the four hundred fifty eighth battery to craft

artillery battalion. Gilmore is a long time Boston and Cambridge businessman and political advisor served on the dais Normandy Utah and Omaha Beach is Marvin E. Gilmore Jr. welcome. Welcome Kelly. I have to say something. It's not often one gets a chance to sit with a real live hero and here you are in the lead you still hear a lot. You're very much wrong. Let's start with when you were 16 years old and enlisted in the army. KELLY That was a long time ago I was in high school came in high in Latin and at the end of the four years the wall was hit I was really crossing I guess all of Europe. And by Father was looking at me says Son only one man in this house and that was my father. So I had nowhere to go so I joined the military at that time and I was shipped up for Devon before to camp Wallace Texas

and then to the hellhole in camp Stewart Georgia. I did get my education real fast. I bet you did. But you know the thing is when you enlisted you had hoped to go into the Army band. Yes I thought I would buy a list that is both have the choice but at that time the government had their own choices just uncanny that near the end of the war. I didn't get my choice sending me to school in Glasgow sky. The Boy Scout is kind of a school in music. OK so you were 16 when you enlisted. I think I figured out you were maybe 20 when you were at Normandy is that about right. No no you seventeen you were 17 OK I missed that. I'm not math is not my strong I said OK I'll still a baby. So you're 17 you got to describe for those of us who've only read about it or seen those scenes in those black and white films what was that like. It wasn't easy at that time Kelly. There were two separate imams and this kind of one

black one white one a rude awakening to join the All Black Company an all black army and if you today we look back at the segregation it was alive and living. We had a white command but all black troops. The other part of a fight he with then and without meaning that the Southern negro troops at that time who was an educated allophone the not supposed to be educated. Again that friction was still with the service then having to face the whites were not allowed to work or fight with them was not a very good experience. And let me just say that I don't think a lot of people understand that historically in this country aside from the segregation there has been our pervasive feeling that African-American men and women did not want to serve or could were not capable of serving in the military and that was something that folks like yourselves put to rest.

That was not true and it says was not true but in those numbers it was true. Manuals on how to treat African-American men the sensitivity of them in the service. A lot of war materials on that where white commanders didn't understand. African-American Southern African American I thought was not then but they were descendants what was their education what our education was very interesting and how do you command black who did not know the left from the right. My point is is that most people thought that blacks or was that black men and women did not want to serve and you yourself dropped out of your example you dropped out to enlist. So that was not true. Would you not want to say Yeah what that there were that they were proud to be an American and they were not a problem if they were afraid of fighting in the war. Well everybody yeah yeah.

But it took young men like myself who at that time we didn't have fear of fighting think about fighting think about facing the enemy. But unfortunately we had to do that and guessed that the government betrayed us. I wanted to be a musician in the service. But they turned around and made me a fight in a foreign affairs 58 and he had automatic weapons like Hillary. So I do everything with guns and machine guns and 40 millimeters 90 millimeters and they trained us to do that. OK I want to get you to take us back to that moment when you landed on those beaches in Normandy. There were listeners sixty nine thousand vessels involved in this invasion on Normandy Beach 12000 aircraft a part of it you were part of an aircraft division. So you fly an hour you land and then I mean the pictures I've seen all hell is breaking loose. I mean.

Well did did did happen but it was a D-Day but D-Day was way way right of way. Troops. I don't remember what we had that we were charged. I remember landing on D-Day and picking up dead bodies that time and really has zero days as they had to find a place where we could put our guns and be able to send them out the fight to bring down the German planes and stand that was an easy thing. Were you scared you were 17 years old for goodness sakes that because kids. Had no time to think of Bobby and skid. You had time to think about getting guns ready digging the fox holes and all that. So there was no fear. Just a matter of survival. I would put it that way and get it anchored in so that you can fight it with the blown out but all black who put up the nets and they had to stop the planes coming in and had so many you didn't

have time to think it so it's just like we've seen in those black and white movies all that chaos going on. I just can't imagine. There's no fear in fighting. You said you did you said that war is hell. What is hell really. And commanders just tell us. You know get their your guns you know dig your holes and begin to fight the enemy. So there wasn't time to think about. I never thought about coming back home. All I thought about moving forward moving forward moving forward as we got on it is that way. And so I mean I travel a lot to France and to Germany to Aachen Germany before I was transferred back into what I wanted to be a musician. And I got that strictly by luck. Do you ever think that you might not make it out alive. Were you worried about that are in the never dull in that part of it. Oh never. Now you know I was on a trip to Paris many

years ago and said it was my first trip but I thought you know this time I think I'm going to go on that tour out to Normandy. I had never done that before and I actually thought it was going to be kind of corny. I just go look at it come back. I I think I'd like to leave the museum and go outside I burst into tears. It's very emotional. It is very very emotional the same as when I was saved the lives of the lot. I cry very very emotional. To look back 66 67 years. It brings all those members that you had to endure. And he saw it happen he said. Am I still here am I much alive. Sixty six years later it is it's very moving. In fact every day as I'm living now I had that nostalgic feeling that sadness of all the men that was with me who are not alive today 16 years when I was joined I mean most men are like in the late 20s mid 20s some in their

40s. They all have passed away and gone and I'm still here. So when this aunt came from France I was shocked. I was so I just cried I was sleeping in bed when I got a call from the consul general France. I thought it was a joke. How about France found me and I'm just so happy to receive the medal. For all of us who are still here today and all of us who have gone on beyond that. And what you know Kelli in France is still thousands of like the still buried there in France and then we got back to America. One of them came as Paul Moody's brother rolled Maltese we have a place up enough came with. Named after him. So it's not the memories is still with us. That's why kids said Well my father my uncle my brother never talked about it. It's not going to stand by you in the sense murderers who are taught to kill. And we put that all behind us. I never talk to my sons about what happened what I

had to do in order to survive. But we had to fight for America had to fight for this country and then to come back still had to fight the Civil Rights Movement. On top of that it just it's just unbelievable. Yeah there were there were there were two fronts for for service person during World War Two coming back home and realizing yes I'm going to fight for the kind of equality that I kind of sort of experienced in Europe as I heard servicemen say that they did what I went with the slain child ever by I mean to Miss Jackson Mississippi made him realize that it was a leader in the end of Lacy Peterson assassinated in his driveway at the height of the civil rights movement. Go ahead sir. That's right it's a Bill Russell night. We integrated the hotel for first time black into it since the reconstruction days and we're trying to get something on the premiss restaurants alcohol stream and the Southern white cracka put a pistol to my stomach. And it's a nigger don't

move. I said I want to Paul Ben's going to show us later Only in America only mad don't love the enemy meaning the son that white cracker get that close to be with a pistol. Well I fought to save his life. Now he's going to kill me trying to get into the restaurant to get something to eat. I guess my life at that point turned around got into economic development. Well and where you have been very active doing that you're currently the president of the Community Development Corporation of Boston and you have been since 1973 and you own the Western Front. You music still lives in your earlier in your life you know a lot of people have been in the restaurant front dance club in Cambridge and it's fabulous. So and your son is a guitarist and a professor at Berkeley. That's correct and your other son's a drummer so you've got music everywhere and your family is so right about that. I still play a little bit. That's right you play the piano.

It's not a fun thing. Music makes life worthwhile. So you contributed on. I mean at this point to get this very very high award award from from France and then to be honored by so many people here in town who think so highly of you. It just seems fabulous. Thank you Kelly. I'm shy and to that extent it's very emotional. I want to thank France who because what I what this medal means there is a major change in the prejudice that really opens up another door because we have black veterans never got the honor right that we should have gotten well want to see movies like Saving Private Ryan Ryan no blacks. You see the band of brothers no blacks and still the system Hollywood to portray us. That's Col. woods all of them put traits at all or

don't say that we have defined we've fought in every walk from them to Silverwater but at least every war World War 1 World War 2 and on and on. And still we don't get the recognition that we've always been out there fighting for our rights and a lot of America right. When is this going to stop. What do you think about today. With so many African-Americans participating in Afghanistan and Iraq those wars. In terms of the African-Americans still fighting for his future his family as well same as we've done every wall we've fought to protect our families and but our right to be somebody in this world and I give high marks to the young soldier who find Afghanistan and elsewhere said that their lives hopefully won't be they won't die and thing that's the main thing. But.

What has been really. The beginning of what we try to achieve to attain and system with maybe the ones will stop but we're still out there war after war when the war itself. But just one of these was done I hope that out troops African I won't come home with their families but unfortunately that has not happened. And war is gruesome as brutal. That is really I don't understand why we still fight today but I have a wish to get a bill to fight for our rights and I hope that it will in some day it will be safe and sound. How does it feel to be a hero. I never thought about being a hero. That's a good course in Cali. I really don't know I just feel good about it. I just feel good about the whole thing and I hope that as you've called it a hero that the door will be opened by the sucess is that I have achieved

and and obtain and also that America wake up and say thank you as well as to all of us who talk about the Tuskegee Airmen but not about the Buffalo Soldiers and just hope that the 54 right here in Massachusetts. Yeah. Officially they're there in the service. Yes because how to feel to be a hero. I don't know. Feel it been so long. Do what I have to do I think every day I'm alive is being a hero. That's more important. There was something else but heroes. I want that you have to work to be to help others. I think the future generation and I could be a role model. I want to be and saying to them get to education work for them and be a man and a woman as well. Well you are definitely a hero and I am proud to be sitting here with you. And I'm Congratulations on your highest highest honor from the end. Thank you

Carla. We've been speaking with Marvin E. Gilmore Jr. He was recently awarded France's Legion of Honor Medal for his service in the 458 battery a anti craft artillery battalion. Thank you so much Mr. Gilmore. This is I think Cal a Crosley show. Today's program was engineered by Allen Madison K. Conklin and produced by Chelsea Merce. Our production assistant is an a white knuckle beat where production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station 4 News.