American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with James Lawson, 2 of 4

[Lawson]: Yeah, it did. It encouraged people. [Interviewer]: Okay, I'm not goin to be in, so you have to say what ?inaudible?.[Lawson]: ?inaudible? not just. It was not just the sit-in campaign. I mean we changed the nature of the discussion by not allowing the Freedom Ride in May of 1961 to stop. [Interviewer]: We'll get to that. I was back in the ?inaudible? Can you talk about the success of the sit-in? [Lawson]: Yeah, in uh, it became a national campaign all over the country. [Interviewer]: Okay, my question's not goin to be there. I'm not going to be there. So you'll ?have to say it? [Lawson]: All right. The sit-in campaign became the first national campaign across the country about treatment in public buildings and restaurants and retail stores, ?inaudible? about jobs, about pulling the signs down. That started the process in the United States for the first time; the sit-in campaign. In Nashville, in particular, we became the first city

that began the pull down signs of, of a, of segra- of tyranny, sometimes called, and then opened up restaurants, train station, bus stations. This was the first city where that began to happen in the south. And by the end of 1960- 1960, in s- Martin King says a hundred and twenty five communities across the Southeast had pulled down their white/colored signs and had proceeded to open up some areas of downtown recreational places and so forth to everyone in the community. Very successful; I think the other side of success of the sit-in campaign also is that - especially in Nashville - we've reduced the whole range of leaders who became the people on many of the cutting edge places across the 1960s.

[Interviewer]: ?inaudible? You guys were young. [Lawson]: Yes. That's something I think that is often ignored that I was 27 or 28 when I moved south. Martin King was the same age. Many of the clergy who've been involved in the bus boycott in Tallahassee, Florida, and Montgomery in the economic boycotts in the 50s in Orangeburg, South Carolina, were all young clergy. There was not that great a differentiation between the age of the students, with whom we fraternized and trained and so forth, and ourselves we were part of the same generation in fact. [various voices, coughs, etc] [Interviewer]: You're losing energy, you alright? Getting- getting tired? [Lawson]: No I'm fine. [Interviewer]: Okay, let's go ?inaudible" So, tell ?me? about that first group and why were the first group of Freedom Riders- why

did they have a training that was very similar to yours? That that same thing you doing in ?inaudible? [Lawson]: Alright the- the training in Washington, D. C. when CORE first started the ride was generally like what I did in Nashville for the very brief episodes just three days in in the difference with Nashville is that in Nashville we didn't- September, October, November, part of Deember, part of January - then we use the movement as a training tool. S'first time that most people had ever sat in anywhere like this. It was the first I had saw that the development of, you know basically, a mass effort. so and it was all, for us, a fundamental are in process but ideally the folk who went on the Freedom Ride, which is one of the toughest things that

had ever happened, from my perspective and [the] perspective of black people. Ideally, we needed to have many of the 400-odd people, who became the Freedom Riders, in training that was equal to what we did in Nashville. We needed that kind of in depth training for the Albany movement, for the Mississippi Summer. [Interviewer]: Yeah, I- I just- [Lawson]: We used back then namely role playing; dramatization of possible experiences that you have of violence, so that there was some clear preparation of that. Uh, in Washington, D. C., as we did in Nashville in 1959 and '60. [Interviewer]: But it wasn't nearly as long. not nearly as long and probably not also as thorough, because in the, in the, in Nashville, um

I interpreted Jesus as a nonviolent practitioner and the Bible as a critic of violence, which is there but often hasn't been picked up by conventional people and by the church's. And these are all youngsters- these are all people: clergy, students, housewives, who were baptized people of the church so it seemed to me that would be a very important thing to use their Christian thought and commitments in a fashion and enable them to see what they were doing out of that context. [Interviewer]: Do remember what you felt when you first heard about the Freedom Riders? The first group- The first group goin' down from D. C. Ya know, they're gonna now take this, ya know, it's like 13 of 'em- 13 of 'em- they're gonna go down int the Deep South. I call it the "Deep, Deep

South"- the deepest South. are what were you I supported it. I wrote a letter of recommendation for John Lewis. I thought it was an essential kind of strategy and method; fighting Jim Crow law and segregation from another angle this angle of travel and hospitality. You must remember though that I also knew about the 1947 Journey of Reconciliation, sponsored by the ?F. O. R.? i knew died reston i mean john jim farmer by this time you know so i was a whole heartedly and

support of that i recognize that there would be a grave trouble not so much in dc or maybe in virginia but certainly by the time the thing got into north carolina south carolina georgia we will be coming up against a hard core of jim crow laws and customs and spirituality of segregation but we were also becoming big up against the organize resistance to any change this organize resistance had strong roots in georgia and alabama especially oh yes so when i learned that congress of racial equality and the rise of what they will call it a freedom ride to test hospitality and jim crow laws down the east coast from washington

dc and then to build new orleans i strongly support it i felt that was a creative act i knew jim farmer so i felt that the freedom rides should be supported by room a letter of recommendation for john lewis who was the youngest member of that original sixteen people as i recall and the freedom of it what was non violent direct action is to see a social wrong and then they revise a specific action that dramatizes that wrong and begins the process of changing it and there are many such direct actions the boycott is a direct action the sit in is another for the economic boycott the strike the sit down the march in the parade there are many and there are

over two hundred different techniques of direct action oh is that part of the purchase the higher you go oh where is unjust it is directly intervene against the injustice which in turn does put it on that minds of people or the community in a way that had never happened in the past so it does indeed raise consciousness makes people aware and we have many many illustrations of this in the black community and the white community across the country that were a dramatization of a bubble of racism and nine states made people were that we still have a problem one of the things that that they

create his confrontation that that that it does confront nonviolent techniques invariably confront been so it's a face to face a head to head confrontation the segregated lunch counter these segregated waiting room against an integrated group of people who refused to observe the signs a lot of the custom of the solution everyone rises further no it's a contrivance they said that we was subversive the corps effort was seen by all the resistance efforts in south carolina and

so forth as an invasion by yankees outsiders communist of people who do not understand our way of life and simply water destroy our way of life was fundamentally the old kids that the old confederacy spirituality and that slavery the tyranny of seo slavery as a part of our way of life and we want to keep it so these folk the northern irish are threatening at what is what they say correct the only thing i don't know is that the error wasn't correct was that they use it yes we understand it yes we want to tear down the

walls of segregation and its concomitant lack of access is can common structure is a white male supremacy its concomitant structure of chauvinism and economic reed yes absolutely we were we were out to destroy it so at that point the klu klux klan in alabama was right live wire what it means why not just wanna fight in court because the court the court's behavior of the court rulings the law is limited it may have the wisdom of the human race and a sense of justice of the human race but a lesser community changes in your heart to accept the law the law will never be obeyed this is true then in nineteen sixty

one of music cannes is the one they talk about the fact that the last existed for ages you know i remember in case because the law already existed boynton decision by the supreme court said that there could be no segregate geisha in and interstate travel and commerce it did not challenge the alabama law of travel segregation and hospitality but it said interstate had to be according to the bill of rights and the constitution of united states so that is exactly right but of course the white colored waiting rooms had not ended anywhere in virginia or as north carolina or alabama for

interstate travel thirty one in control so why not violent intervention because as the only method you have to intervene in such a situation you can't carry a bus load of people to go into those waiting rooms that would've been nonsense and bob we could never have recruited a single person boy that got on the freedom ride so you use the methods that are available and use the methods that are going to create a different environment for change when you use the violence you only escalate the hostility and the favors an inundation of that you cause many people who think your cause is right to reject your cause because you're using violence

and crew by using nonviolence people see the contrast between your dignified disciplined confrontation of the wrong and then the reaction of violence in the freedom ride that came from the kkk no way of confusing that confrontation who right yes in terms of the nation yes most of the witnesses in great city and mortensen this is a good thing but she should know that it was duis watch how

the trial and provide a perfect place to test because this was a place where the laws says the lawsuit he lost an interesting job but the signs and house rules there's a kind of a racial equality and knew that the supreme court had announced that segregation laws in travel especially interstate travel were unconstitutional but irene morgan and the boynton case that decision i don't remember quite when that decision was made that it was in the late fifties early call early nineteen sixty one now that would be nineteen sixty nine the supreme court decided in the irene morgan durrant in

chief the state laws of segregation were unconstitutional that they could not have separate waiting rooms marked white or colored they could not have separate restaurants in a bus station mark white coated mushrooms with signs over them white colored congress of racial equality in fact in making of the season to develop a freedom ride knew about that the siege and so they knew they were now testing whether or not the supreme court decision was being obeyed by virginia as an illustration or alabama on civil

rights f kennedy had not run under civil rights platform he really didn't know that much about the country in relationship to structural poverty which is what racism is and then about jim crow law and the segregation that jim crow laws had established from around nine the team forties in for he came in as a person who has even of the president and he can learn and was open to talking to all kinds of people which he did so he learns a good bet the kennedy administration also were shackled by the bipartisan sense that had emerged by that time that the cold war was the most critical issue for the united states not the welfare all the people and not abolishing racism and sexism in the united states they were shackled by that i use that term very

deliberately that was my point of view and nineteen sixties cold war was a mistake and as a way by which the powers that be could direct the american people from their own welfare and the role of government has been the government for the people and could also therefore enlisted them in international adventures rather than in the domestic picture of africa for an example to have a society fully employed in creative work and necessary work so well well i think it's a nice thing i think that there were no now i will say it that way i think that very few white elected officials were concerned with the owner

rights of all the people of america or the rights of the people if they were elected officials in the state of virginia ohio that simply was not on the agenda in the nineteen fifties anywhere in the country desegregation signs were perfectly normal to them both the republican and the democratic party's distance initially continue with the freedom rides grady was being far beyond what was your ears well actually what it happened was i went to was a vessel ohio where my mother was having major surgery so i wanted to be with her at that time and i was wait for three days

the central committee which was a movement committee and was not called a student central committee and which i was a member of the fall the freedom ride diligently in the news in the newspaper is especially and by phone calls and john lewis a journalist us so we we saw that as an essential enterprise and we were happy that we had a representative in john was on the ride although with care and you must remember that in nashville there we had work by consensus so there is a common spirituality common sense of gold goes these might be unfolding still an unknown

so as the violence happened we were of course dismayed the violence had been predicted by fred shuttlesworth in a number of other people but and we expected it to happen especially in alabama but it never lasts aroused us and outraged us and they is reminded on the burning in anniston alabama and when the birmingham explosions we were outrage that the police forces helped to make it happen were not available not the state they were not available detect american citizenship ordinary human beings in travel soul as it occurred there was among us not only an increased

the energy for behalf on behalf of it but then a willingness to be ready to do something as i proceeded when because of the injury in and i heard that a number of the people had an especially about time they reached birmingham and they voted to fly from birmingham to new orleans there was a sense among any number of us in nashville that we cannot permit that to happen the consequences of that decision for the unfolding movement or immeasurable i had taught in the workshops that strategically when you get opposition from the enemies of struggle and social justice then you must outfox them you must commit

my morals is it soon one then you must step back and recognize the situation and analyze it and then work on a strategy that can move you through it or around the overt and then especially illegitimate use of power must not be permitted to the best of our ability. That was a part of my teaching and that if i'm not there for you had to go through a major discipline, okay. If it meant that you may have to do special suffering, then do it. So that became the consensus in the central committee in Nashville and Diane Nash kept me informed about this discussion and then as they made the decision there she called me to inform me of the decision and I con- I concurred in that decision, wholeheartedly and said among other things, that I'll be back whenever the date was and I

will be one of the people who go; who will go into Alabama to help do the ride. So that basically I asked diane also to do something special that's an almost none of the books that i know of i said to her that we made a decision now about this restaurant that is yes i should not talk about whether the finance issues at chic you called me when the decision was made and we talk to a three times a much or how how much we talk about it so that you go to the us she was at that time the court later of art movement in nashville on a subsistence healthy rejection of sally and so I said, "Diane what you must do now is--" I don't remember exactly

how I put it, but I asked Diane to call Martin Luther King Jr. and tell him that we were going to pick up the ride the call jim farmer and tell him of the congress of racial equality