WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Gambling has been described as the sure way of getting nothing from something but in Massachusetts gambling will give us something. But in what form remains to be seen. We've heard the arguments and the glass half empty half full scenario as before slots increase revenue and create jobs or drain the state of resources and spawn a public health nightmare. But a larger looming question still goes on answered. Does it have to come to this. Have we lost our moral compass by failing to find other solutions or are we finally coming to terms with today's socio economic realities. Well explore with the presence of casinos would mean for Massachusetts. We top off the hour with a look at the relationship between gambling and society through the lens of American cinema. Up next the last resort. Gambling in the Bay State and on the big screen. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Thousands of air space

workers in Florida are waiting to hear more about President Obama's plans for Nassau in a couple of hours the president is expected to give a major address at the Kennedy Space Center outlining his vision for human space exploration. From member station WFIU in Orlando Judith Smeltzer reports. Nine thousand workers at Kennedy Space Center are expected to be laid off when the space shuttle program ends later this year. Many were hoping to get jobs with the program that was supposed to replace the shuttle and send astronauts back to the moon. But President Obama announced earlier this year he wants to cancel that program. Engineer Bob Patterson who works for a private contractor on the shuttle says he may have to move his family out of Florida to find work. Our first choice is to stay here but I've already sent out a couple resumes you know out of state. And your account of what the kids know that we may be moving someplace else but the White House says when the president visits Kennedy Space Center he'll lay out a plan that will create twenty five hundred new jobs in the area. Residents are anxious to hear just what those positions will

be. For NPR News I'm Judith's Mauser in Orlando. It wasn't your average shooting star last night a meteor shot across the Midwestern sky. Reports of a huge fireball were called into police departments in several states and for a moment night turned into day. See for yourself at npr.org. Another kind of natural occurrences wrecking havoc on air travelers today. A volcanic eruption from Iceland is forcing officials to ground flights across Europe hundreds of thousands of passengers grounded as well in the process. Terry Schulte says details from Brussels airports across northern Europe have been shuttered downscale due to the thick ash drifting across the Atlantic Ocean for the first time since 9/11. The airspace over Britain has been completely closed shutting airports to all but emergency flights. Airports in Ireland the Netherlands Denmark Norway Sweden and Finland are all in some stage of either closure or severe cutbacks in traffic as far south as Paris and Brussels has also been affected on the island of Iceland to the eruption is wreaking

havoc. The volcano sits under a glacier and its eruption sent floodwaters down into residential areas forcing people to flee. For NPR News I'm Teri Schultz in Brussels. President Obama is ordering a federal review of coal mine safety in the wake of a deadly underground explosion in West Virginia nearly two weeks ago. The president says from initial reports he's seen so far it appears managers need to be held more accountable. Owners responsible for conditions in the Upper Big Branch Mine should be held accountable for decisions they made and preventive measures they failed to take on April 5th an explosion at the Upper Big Branch mine in Montcoal killed 29 people. Most of the miners. At last check on Wall Street the Dow was up a point at eleven thousand one hundred twenty three. You're listening to NPR News. As civil rights leaders being remembered for his lifelong struggle toward racial equality in this country Benjamin L. hooks died early today at his Tennessee

home after a long illness. He was 85 years old. Hoax led the end for 15 years during which he helped revive the civil rights groups prominence Hook's also helped guide the organization during a series of deadly mail bombings in the south in the 80s. Among a lifetime of achievements Hookes was also a recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom. It's tax day. Millions of taxpayers are expected to wait until the very last minute to file their returns. WB You are Sonari Glinton reports new changes in the log could cause problems for late filers. Tax law changes happen every year and it seems there's always some nuance that will trip people up. Cindy Hockenberry is with the National Association of tax professionals. She says it's not just new laws that cause problems. It's the simple things such as signing the form. And if you're due a refund and you're requesting direct deposit right into your bank account as opposed to a paper check. You don't want to make sure that the roading numbers in the account numbers are absolutely 100 percent correct on your

return. Hockenberry says that could mean the difference in getting the refund in a few weeks or several months. She also says many hurried tax payers could overlook the Making Work Pay tax credit that could earn married couples up to $800 and individuals up to 400. For NPR News I'm Sonari Glinton in Boston. Kyrgyzstan's ousted president has left the country there are reports that he's also resigned this comes after an uprising during which that leader fled Bishkek. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from General Mills whose big serials bring thirty five million servings of whole grain to American families every day more at General Mills dot com slash NPR. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Yesterday the House overwhelmingly passed a proposal to bring two casinos and racetracks slot machines to Massachusetts. The bill is now on its way to the Senate. We're taking stock of

stock of what gambling could mean for Massachusetts as part of WGBH as weeklong special series on TV and radio. The last resort. Joining us today are Kelly Bates executive director of the access strategies fun. John Kent professor of business administration at the University of Illinois College of Business. And Scott Harshbarger former attorney general and senior counsel at PROSKAUER. Welcome to all of you. Glad to be here. OK now listeners. Where do you stand on casinos does this change the identity of Massachusetts. Do you think it's about time we establish casinos. Are you adamantly opposed to gambling in the Bates state. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy. And I want to set the context for the conversation for listeners so they're not confused. This is the naysayer zone. I mean we're going there on this hour because my guests do not believe that this is the answer to the state's economic problems.

They say it's a rushed and secretive response to a lack of imagination and political expediency. Scott Harshbarger lead us off. Did it have to come to this. No I think not at all and I think Calley one of the things that is important for everybody understand this debate is this is not about whether we have gambling in Massachusetts or not. We already gamble with the lottery and otherwise in revenue the stays in Massachusetts at a rate as high as almost any state in the country. Secondly many other states have gone this route already. We don't need to pretend like this the first time it ever happened. And you look around the country and every state that has casinos rust Senos and slots has major unemployment issues significant kinds of fiscal deficits the same kinds of things that even though it's not said directly the proponents of this legit polls claim will save Massachusetts at least in the short term so that it comes down to why what is the rush here. We know what will be a dramatic

change in the way we do business in Massachusetts. You could argue it could be positive. We could after a major public policy debate decide whatever the reason we should have this. But what happens and the only way it can pass is just the way it came through last night in the house with the speaker. Respectfully of the unions who are talking about jobs I understand their concern and the lobbyists ramrodding this through without public hearings because the more you know the more concerned you'll be. And that's one of the things that people do not want to assess is what are the real numbers here. There is no question that the numbers that are being proposed right now in terms of revenue and jobs are sheer fabrications. They might someday be right but they've never been subjected to anything resembling critical scrutiny and they don't include the costs the major costs that never get counted including what do you do when every other New England state has a case to go this right. OK well I'm going to go to my numbers guy in this conversation it's John Kent who's at the

University of Illinois you've been studying gambling for 20 years. What do you know about it and what difference is this legislation should it become final going to make for Massachusetts economically. Well first I should say I've been to Massachusetts and given several presentations at the Capitol over the past few years most recently last August to a packed standing room only crowd and they are in a double open. Committee hearing room they had to open up the dividers and as more and more people kept coming in so everyone's very attuned to this and I would refer not to my own studies but to a national commission that we had back in the 1900s and Scott Harshbarger testified with regard to this commission or before this Commission. And he has done a terrific public service for the state of Massachusetts he's a real asset to the state. What did that what did that Bill what did that say. And the United States National Gambling Impact Study Commission

said that there are significant downsides to bringing in gambling and they. And let me let me preface this by saying when we're talking casinos here gambling facilities it's all about slot machines. It's all about video gaming machines and the National Commission sponsored by both Republicans Democrats liberals conservatives across the board. People agreed that these video gambling machines where they're convenient to the public should be really criminalized rolled back and re criminalized. Why. Because the socio economic negatives simply overwhelm any potential benefits and I not going to hear about these negatives because the lobbyists are constantly out there talking about the positives. The other thing I'd like to throw into the conversation let me just ask because I'm going to just just reiterate something you just said. So what you're saying is there is no way for us according to what has been observed and surveyed and studied for us to make money with a wide enough profit margin that it can absolve

and take care of all the other issues that come with it because you know ghastly right. I could and my colleagues could make a whole lot of money if we were to change our opinion on this and by the way I would point out that we don't take honorarium or consulting fees to talk about these things. The negatives simply overwhelm the benefits and the studies show that if you look at the ABC of new legalized gambling these slot machines you're talking about new addicted gamblers new bankruptcy's up 18 to 42 percent and new crime up 10 percent around these gambling facilities and it's and it's based on taking money out of the consumer economy and dumping it into these machines. That's 90 percent of the money going in is going into these machines and that that translates into job losses. And somebody does make money on this. Oh this you know the owner. Oh yes the owner's right reap huge profits that's what's also worth. Remembering here and not I'm sorry to interrupt John and interrupt other people's comments.

Yes I want to get Kelly in on this. Kelly the secrecy about this now John just described a situation where there was you know full of a room full of people wanting to weigh in about their concern about it but that's not what characterize this process. I mean it's true there's been public hearings in the past on casino gambling but this proposal is the one that could actually seal the deal and they did not have public hearings about this. And it's and it's a real problematic because we have been actually talking about the consumers the people who will consume this casino gambling if you think about there are these you know access we care about underserved communities low income communities the children whose parents are going in and gambling and losing resources to put food on the table. You know the spouses who have to watch you know alcoholism and betting happen they're not getting a chance to talk about how this is going to impact them. So this has been done for the most part because we have a strong speaker who has casinos in his district and he's going to try to make this go through as quickly as he can. So we have not had a very open comment period about this proposal and this is the one frankly that could be the final law.

There are some callers who want to weigh in. Go ahead please. I thank you for taking my call. Yes go ahead. I grew up in Ledyard Connecticut where boxwood you know it. And I was born and raised there and I just want to say that I'm not for it because you know legislation however I do think it's inevitable and I think unfortunately that is and I think it's important to understand the impact it has on the town and the surrounding town to her negative and negative impacts and extremely negative and you know in the Mashantucket people live if you're one 30 second Mashantucket Pequot I believe that's what it is you that you live on the reservation you don't pay state taxes. And yet those children go to our public schools and so we had a bigger impact on that one end of it. In addition those those in it and then those people did not have fiscal responsibility because they were receiving money from the you know from the reservation. And so they have and we intend to work hard for and to and to contribute to the town and in addition to that I think you have to remember that the people

that work at the. You know are not fairly people that you want coming in and out of town. But the month leaving the mine it doesn't get you through a long a long lacked. So it's not a long term solution you're not convinced by this bill that this is going to work for Massachusetts. No not at all I tell you the number of. We have experienced people losing everything they have because of a parent or an addict. The gambling I think is part of all. OK thank you very much. I want to tell our listeners that we took some poll took a poll on the WGBH last resort site and after more than 300 people voted 67 percent do not support casino gambling as our last caller did not. Twenty eight percent do and 5 percent don't know. So that's where we are there. Now I got to put this on the table because this is Bob Dylan the House speaker Bob DiLeo insists jobs will be created if this legislation let me just let listeners hear what he had to say. We'll be back. When I visit the union halls OK I listen to folks

and employed to the tune of the unions 30 40 50 percent. OK those those numbers are unbelievable for every one job but rather like 65 applications for that one job. You know when I visit you know it's like the building it trades when I visit you know the carpenters when they visit you know that you know the Teamsters I look in their eye and the these folks are hurting. And I look at this is giving them an opportunity also you know to work. We all talk we all hear about the social cost of gaming and I look at the social cost of joblessness here in Massachusetts and that's what I want to see addressed. I agree with the speaker completely. We have a major unemployment jobs economic development challenge in Massachusetts but frankly thanks to many efforts it's not quite as bad as many other states that have casinos in Racine knows. And the numbers simply don't justify back up. We all wish if this was really the panacea. If this was going to

solve the job and economic develop progress over time that's one thing. But the the trouble with it is this. As Kelly said this particular bill there is that may save some job at the racetracks it may add some construction jobs and all that I understand but there are many other things that could do that much more positively for longer term benefit. And we're not doing that I think this is a failure of leadership frankly I mean I because what it does it what he doesn't mention is respectfully is one of the other costs where is the attorney general in terms of talking about consumer protections and public protections where was everybody when we when the factories shut down on this theory we ought to have a bailout in terms of slot machines for every hard hit industry in Massachusetts. It proves too much and that's one of the things is that I understand why the unions are pressing this and why people are there. They to some extent have lost some confidence that we're actually going to deliver here but to believe that in the long term casinos and slot machines at racetracks are going to solve that problem I think is. Misguided but maybe more

importantly why if it's so clear what's wrong with having a debate about what is wrong with an ally why not have some adult supervision here and have an independent cost study. Let people debate the merits one way or the other. If we decide we want this in Massachusetts we might lose that. But right now we're we're losing it only because they have more money they're ramming it through and they're convincing people that there's no cost in this. This is it sounds too good to be true it probably is and this is real puffery. We'll be continuing this discussion on the other side of the break I'm Kalee Crossley. We're talking about gambling in Massachusetts as a part of WGBH a special series The Last Resort. I'm with Kelly Bates of the access strategies fun. Professor John Kant from the University of Illinois and former Attorney General Scott Harshbarger will be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Skinner auctioneers and appraisers

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Speaking of Faith to get your tickets for this day of conversation and ideas. Thanks and I hope to see you on April 24th. This is Brian O'Donovan. Don't miss weekends on the new eighty nine point seven. We've got a whole new line up of public radio's favorite weekend voices Hello and welcome to Bob Edwards weekend THIS AMERICAN LIFE Merrick I asked Mrs. NPR's ON THE MEDIA I'm lads down and a Celtic sojourn at a new time Saturday afternoons at three weekends are all for new flavor along with the staples you've always loved was going to make you like what we're going to hear on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Celebrate the first day of Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim with a round trip for two aboard and try to sell espresso to catch Sondheim at 80 live in Washington D.C. all that free online at WGBH dot org. I'm Kelly Crossley and today we're talking about gambling in the Bay State. It's part of WGBH a

special series The Last Resort. Yesterday the House overwhelmingly passed a proposal to bring two casinos and racetracks slot machines to Massachusetts. The bill is now on its way to the Senate. I'm joined by Kelly Bates executive director of the access strategies fun. John Kant professor of business administration at the University of Illinois College of Business. And Scott Harshbarger former attorney general and senior counsel at Proskauer John can't don't desperate times call out call for desperate measures so maybe it's not the best thing but hey some money well I'm boiling oil is one of the first state to get the riverboat casinos. And we were one of the leaders when it comes to legalized new forms of gambling. Right now a bill was pushed through the legislature to put video gambling machines all across the state we're going to have more video gaming machines and then the state of Nevada. And that's going to translate into lost jobs and let me tell you why. Each slot machine takes in about one hundred thousand dollars per year.

That's $300000 loss to the consumer economy that translates into one last job her slot machine. So if we look at the proposal in Massachusetts you're going to lose about thirty five thousand forty five thousand jobs as all the slot machines swamp the state. They're going to come in to your state and that's what it's about. And Ellen know why people are so disgusted with this that over 70 communities have voted new ordinances to keep these machines out. Only three so far are allowing them in including Cook County has has said 10 to 4 by vote of 10 to four. We don't want these machines in anywhere in our county to Page County a very populous county around Chicago unanimously said. New ordinance we don't want these machines they've done their homework on this. And when Cook County is taking the high moral ground and saying we don't want slot machines we don't want these video gambling machines we don't want these gambling facilities anymore. Enough is enough. Let's stop it.

And let me mention one other quick thing. There at Harvard there's a recently published report that in which is definitive. And it looked at before and after bringing in these gambling facilities these video gaming machines and it indicated that crime goes up 10 percent per year. After you bring them in white people lose their money they resort to crime. Taxpayers are going to have to pay for this. Published by Harvard MIT. And one quick example. Out in Omaha Nebraska there was a racetrack called X Arbonne. They were going bankrupt. They said Let us turn into a casino. Let us bring in these video gambling machines. The mayor the community said no they basically bulldoze down the place. And they started building what was called X Arbonne village. It is a multimillion a billion dollar. Investment that's where you're getting construction jobs it's been going on for 10 years now and they just announced a huge expansion right in the middle of the recession putting in theaters they're putting in shops they're putting in malls they're putting in tellme houses for people.

That is consumer activity that's going to create your construction jobs. Gambling and video gaming machines. Well they'll create a few jobs for construction when you're building the facilities. After that it goes away. It's a net loss of thirty five thousand forty five thousand jobs per year from the state of Massachusetts. So please don't follow Illinois and do what we do know the Reverend Frank Robson. Yeah we're in bankruptcy. You know everyone talks about these jobs like they're these you know great jobs that are going to pay all these perfect wages but we're talking about entertainment and retail jobs frankly not all of those jobs are going to be ones that pay very well they're not the kinds of jobs that are going to stick around forever. I mean frankly in those kinds of institutions there's a lot of turnover. And so I just think we have to be careful about how much there's this great promise of these great jobs that are going to be available and out there and. You know when he said something to Kelly Bates of the access strategies fund that in fact the legislature is really avoiding the big money question.

They are and the bottom line is it's not politically expedient for them to talk about what they really need to talk about which is tough to do in this economy and that's income taxes and looking at you know when the economy pivots how do we make sure that there are some revenues to support the services that we need. And so they're trying to duck that question and they're doing it through the casino gambling debate and rushing toward this because this is going to be the panacea and it's not to Scott Bart Scott Harshbarger point it's not they're going to see that. And before you know it this is just going to spread you know across the state and it will not be the Celestion of what you think people do minimize and I is that to believe that this is like Lay's potato chips excuse me for advertising but you can't have just one and. And what's interesting is that if you look at the numbers this is what the United States to stop slots in Massachusetts has pointed out with John's help and others is this number can't be true this number cannot produce the revenue is talking about so what you're really saying is we get in the door. And then we'll need one more. We'll need one more because the revenue that they need to produce and the jobs require many more slot machines require different

kinds of the casino service Senos in this process so that you're not just having this limited proposal whatever its limitations are. And that's why the debate's important to Cali because people don't under I don't think it's not to be we can't understand what this means but what they what is being sold particularly as an economic development and jobs bill that really is very close to the misrepresentation in terms of what you can consume or gold. Well ideas for gold and because it's simply not you know accurate it may well produce the but it has lots of costs as John Kant points out. And what's interesting to me 172 page bill let's talk about why the Tea Party was mad. They were just mad at Washington D.C. It was Beacon Hill. It was as as Kelly said on either side whether pro or con never having a debate and discussion to push these kinds of very significant. Bill through because at the end of the day there are winners here there is no question that lobbyist win that

casino owners win and owners of the racetrack. The question is who loses somebody has to lose when you're gambling here because you have to lose seven billion dollars to make up the kind of revenue gaps that they're going to cannibalize from the lottery from jobs from entertainment and little more than there is under and on and on. We're speaking with Scott Harshbarger and Kelly Bates and John Kant about what gambling could mean in Massachusetts. I want to read something from one of our one one of our listeners who wrote into the website wondering about other alternatives. This is Bernard He says money spent at casinos does not stay in Massachusetts. It ends up in the hands of the investors in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia or in Macau our Mumbai India a casino aids and abets a disease known as compulsive gambling. Look at other newer high tech areas as Research Triangle Park West Palm Beach County and Austin Texas. Better jobs than can see Knows Less Crime and growth instead of rot.

Keep the money in Massachusetts. Disregard fake market research by stumbling academics and invest in a brighter future rather than decay and destruction. Why do we have this failure of imagination. Why is this so seductive. John can't. I agree with exist exactly what he's saying only I hope I'm not one of those stumbling academics that quite quite a few of my colleagues and myself were just giving the facts on this and the costs to the taxpayers at least three four five dollars for every $1 in benefits there are a few benefits there are few construction jobs that are created but they're not long term jobs and people have been kind of said well John can't referring to statistics that I present. But we have a new 3000 page 3 volume United States international gambling report produced in large part here at the University of Illinois and it's got all of this documentation and it's got this Harvard MIT report about the 10 percent increases in crime in it. It's got. The new addicted gamblers it references how the last jobs

occur when you bring in these slot machines because they're taking money of the consumer con economy. The person who emailed That Into You is instinctively and absolutely correct that's a very savvy comments and the Australian Retailers Association for an example Australia has more gambling than any other industrialized country in the world. They just issued a press release and report indicating that they are losing three hundred three thousand jobs per year because people are dumping their money into slot machines in Australia. Now Australia's population is only about three times that of Massachusetts and we need to look to the mistakes of other countries other states including my own Illinois and I wish I could say otherwise but I can't. A large part of our budgetary problems which are significantly larger than those of Massachusetts and other states were number two after California in budgetary problems a large part of that is due to the gambling. And as attorney general

Harshbarger I'll still kill still call you that. Scott has said you just can't have one. It keeps expanding and expanding and it's very unfortunate that our state Illinois bringing in slot machines more slot machines. Has ignored the 1999 right National Gambling Impact Study Commission and ignored our own recent 2009 United States international gambling here's what's interesting Kelly on this just this one point. If people want more facts regularly easy access to Kathleen Norquist on exceptional John exactly as are battling as a city need to stop slots in Massachusetts and it's there you can agree or disagree with it but it's there. I mean that information. The other thing it missed. This is Massachusetts and I know and I don't think I'm sat saying elitist here. We have so many assets health care education our community college system biotech high tech all kinds of things that we should be developing the alternative opportunities for us. And and to the governor's credit

and it has really worked hard at that and so has the legislature in terms of supporting it. I disagree with the governor that destination resort casinos need to be part of that. But the point is that we have so many other assets here in Massachusetts that we ought to actually be a bit embarrassed to say that this is the only way we can deliver jobs to hardworking union members to working families to people who are struggling right now because we've got to tell the truth that we're this is a high risk. It may be some high rewards but there is clear we know we don't need to speculate about what the costs will be. They're real they're documentable they're happening in other states. And why are we so willingly going that route with the hope that will somehow hit you know hit the slots and I think that's really what it is it's it's a major gamble and I'm a bit surprised that people like treasure Cahill who I respect his position but. He's got to

know that the lottery gets cannibalized in local aid that all these promises that are getting made what I'm fascinated by is let's guarantee him if this is true let's guarantee how do we guarantee that the slots produce this number of jobs that they produce this much revenue that if they're going to cannibalize the casino owner should pay for every cost that's involved here because they will make money so there's an alternative which is if we're going to go this route. Let's have contracts claw back provisions guarantees that are enforceable. If in the event this doesn't occur and what I never hear what that I never did yeah is if you put it out on the table I think there would be a huge decrease in interest about this without me getting into other questions about. The potential for corruption the potential of money and politics driving the agenda. Let's talk about money in politics now. That's something I spent a lot of time thinking about is sort of our ethics and democracy. There's going to be these you know presumably if this passes these casinos these

these monstrosities and others coming into the state. First of all two years ago legislators didn't even want this exact OK. Now all of a sudden they've changed their tune the economy was bad two years ago what's operating is two very powerful forces which is the the the the support of both unions which I am a huge union supporter but I disagree with them on this issue as well as the House speaker which is now different and has you know in his backyard casino so they're pushing this through. Now all these casinos come in. Let me tell you all the money that's going to be flowing to some of these political actors and politicians and there's actually an amendment pending right now that would say a casino shouldn't be able to give individual contributions to camp Well it's come under fire for that just recently on a fundraiser he held. But continue they are going to be you know they would be a very very pull a big political force and I personally do not think that's the kind of political leadership and influence that I want to see in the state. Well something else Carol that you mention that I thought was another way of looking at this in terms of lack of imagination about Massachusetts and where it's been as sort of

a leader in areas. While morality quite frankly and some other issues and social social justice and this seems to take us in a different direction it really does you know it's uncreative you know we were innovative you know and we do take stands and say no you know this is going to be a state where we're going to support education we're going to support prosperity. We're not going to we're going to try to create some equal equal opportunity for people and this just doesn't do it it's just a very quick fix. It's a slippery slope. It is a slippery slope. And I I really do you know feel very empathetic about this question about jobs we absolutely need them. It is a very desperate time. But we don't have and we shouldn't make policy based on desperate you know ideas. I don't think that's the way we make a government. What I think is it's important for people here in my view I mean I have pretty strong views about this and I love government. Governor Cox and I and

some of it is based on real experience here I mean we we actually watched Dan Bosley for example who had absolute was an agnostic on this topic 15 years ago when he was asked by I think then Speaker go look and find out. He came back with absolutely no prior opinion and was convinced that Massachusetts did not under any circumstances need this solution. There's never been a grassroots movement that demands we have more slots more casinos. I mean people may well do it. That's why it's not if it's there they'll do it up there. That's right and the consumer rights community based groups and individuals they don't have the money to go up against these big actors with big bucks to you know crowd out the other side. And that's something people really need to understand that voice is not going to come through they just don't have those limits so that the point here is is again there may be other there. People may have other views and apparently the Chamber of Commerce has one even apparently the people feel this is

very short of what they feel very strongly this is a good thing. Well I haven't heard you know I think that then that that's a that's a reason to have a full debate. I mean the great thing about Massachusetts is people will listen right. People listen. And that's why you deserve a lot of credit because one of the problems here is that the people who maybe oppose us do not have the voice John McCain is right in this maverick phase. When I was a common cause used to say you know we all have a right to free speech in this country is just if you pay to play you get to sit in the front row and have a megaphone and you get to sit in the back and whisper. Well essentially you're determining what's on the agenda here and all we're saying I think people even people feel very strongly about this is give us a chance to have that policy debate and we'll take our shot. We will take a shot at convincing people. Well they've already said it matches a series of secret meetings though. Well that's what we can look at in the Senate to bring this bill into to fruition because the Senate has a panel that concerns. I really think I am very hopeful I'll be clear here that whatever the reasons the House did

this which I disagree with completely I hope the Senate president and the governor will step up here and I would love to see the attorney general joining in that and even the Catholic candidates for governor standing up and saying long. We'll have to live with this whatever we go here so let's have a full fledged debate let's do this openly publicly have it out and people may well decide this is democracy right. We have a right to be heard we don't have a right to have our way but we do have a right to be heard. Well. We're going to leave it there for now. The Senate has yet to weigh in. We'll see what happens. We've been talking about gambling in Massachusetts with Kelly Bates executive director of the access strategies fund. John Kant professor of business administration at the University of Illinois College of Business. And Scott Harshbarger former attorney general and senior counsel at PROSKAUER. Thank you all for joining us. That.

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world on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH radio. Not. Much of a lady. Tonight. I'm callin Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. Today we're looking at gambling and society on the silver screen part of WGBH his weeklong special series The Last Resort. That was Frank Sinatra from Guys and Dolls. We're looking we're joined by film critic Karen Daly host of the gerund Daily Show on 15 50 W in t n. And Tim S. to Lohse film critic for The Boston Latino TV and the examiner dot com. Welcome. Thank you. Karen you've been spending a lot of time looking at some of these gambling films and I want you to just tell me how many are there. Oh you would have to ask me a tough question but I have a page here with about

35 of them and most of the 35 most important ones. So I would say you can multiply that by about five maybe a hundred fifty do. And you know when you talk about gambling firms those are the ones that you know stress gambling then there are a lot of films that have gambling just as a sideline or you know like a lot of those films in the 30s they had the gangsters and also had gambling going on but it wasn't as pronounced as some of these other films are. Well. I was thinking about this because I thought Gee when I start to think about it I knew a few just off the top of my head and I wasn't looking per se so there are more than any of us believe there to be right Tim. Oh there are so many of them. And also they run the gamut really of a different sort of plotlines I mean you have a number of films that are really talking about gambling in a very dark sense a very way that is kind of shows gambling in a very negative light. And then there's some that run the gamut words very fun and positive and portrayed in a very very romanticized way and in between there is that gray area of all those types of themes. Well I think for me most of the time it's been glamorous but here's a film that I didn't know

anything about called the gambling lady this is from 934 black and white film starring Barbara Stanwyck as a professional gambler and Joel McCrea as her upper class suitor. I've been playing cards all my life just for the kick of the game. Maybe I'll get wise to the show came up with a shuffle to make some money and you've made. Funny thing it made it on the level you take it because you're on it. What do these films tell us about ourselves as Americans. KAREN Well I think you know it really depends on the film because we go back and forth we've gone through many different phases with gambling where we're very restrictive like in the puritanical times when Massachusetts was found all the way to you know it's wide open season where there's lotteries and there's a casino is all over the place. And then we seem to swing back we've gone to three or four major phases in our history. Films tend to reflect that history as well. What I like about gambling lady which is you know again 1934 post

code so women are no longer having to play prostitutes or drug addictions or or working their way up because Barbara Stanwyck made a career of playing a naughty woman. Here she's playing a woman who is respected. But again it's not she. She can't be a captain of industry. So she's got to go out of this kind of outside of the society normal society where she's a gambler but she's a really honest gambler versus the people around who are always constantly tempting her to give away her virtue so to speak and throw the game. The thing that struck me about this clip that I wasn't familiar with the film is the whole honesty being stressed because that's not how I think of gambling now as an honest Tim. I've got to tell you when I think of another film that really talks about how gambling can corrupt people we've got the film from 1988 out which takes the perfect sport of baseball that is squeaky clean in America's game and yet it takes it to the Black Sox scandal where the game was influenced where

people were trying to gamble on the outcome of that game. So you've got all these characters who are supposedly very upstanding sportsman and yet they are corrupted by the influence of gambling and also people who will benefit from it from the outside by making them throw the game if you will that are moving from the puritanical to something else. Well I think when we're talking about eight men I think that's the downside of one of those phases that we went through a lot of people realize that there was corruption there was also a movement of social reform going on at the same time where you know in 1918 was also a time when the women's vote came to pass. It was also a time of prohibition. So the time that we find out the scandal in baseball is a time that we were also going through social reform. They seemed to be going hand in hand in every single phase that we go through and you know John Sayles movie Eight men is a perfect example of how innocence really innocence of the Jewish judge Jack Jackson is portrayed as an innocent gets totally corrupted and ends up being banned from baseball the thing that he loved more than

anything else. Now here's a clip from a film that a lot of people will be familiar with this is from the 1942 classic Casa Blanca. Here's Rick's being shut down. A sense of play because there is gambling. Everybody believes this catfish can go on. Notice once. A week of God I'm shocked shocked to find that gambling is going on in a. Few weeks. Thank you very much everybody out to watch the shocked shocked to find out that gambling is going to show myself classic classic movie quote. So here's the thing that's really interesting about that very short quote You have two things going on. First of all you have a casino being run that has gambling illegally going on but the Inspector Renault the chief of police knows about it because he's getting bribed and it's all this kind of nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean it's OK we're all just boys here. Yeah yeah great.

Oh yes absolutely So I mean it's a kind of film that where people are sort of looking at gambling as well it's kind of OK and you know no it's long as no one's getting hurt. That kind of thing that's very acceptable. Think another film that really combines a lot of different aspects of gambling you whether it's and again really romanticizes it is one of the classics that we played a clip from earlier in 1955 Guys and Dolls. I mean you have Frank Sinatra as Nathan Detroit who's under pressure a little bit from his his fiance to get out of the gambling game and yet you have the Marlon Brando character who's really into the gambling game. Then you have Gene Simmons who is the nice sweet missionary worker and she once she ends up benefiting from it and of course we have the cops along the perimeter. So there's all these different aspects of gambling coming together. The Good The Bad The romanticized in that you know at the same with Casablanca. That was interesting point on guys and dolls and with guys and dolls. I don't know people I wasn't paying attention that it was about gambling I was caught up in the elegance of the both the

film and the musical which I think says a lot about how we take in some of this material and that's actually something when we're when we open the show we talked a little bit about you know those films that are exactly about gambling and those films that have been on the periphery. That's exactly what I'm talking about because we see it we don't necessarily take it in and it becomes part of us because we've seen it and we've absorbed it. But I want to go back to Casa Blackwood just a quick little second because later in the movie Rick Riggs a roulette game so that a young girl and her husband can get out of Casablanca. But with the winnings and that's how they're going to do it. So there's this kind of thing that we have and our our culture where you know you can win you can make the big score and all be ok even if it is gambling. And I think that's an important part of us to remember when we're looking at these films because we kind of you know romanticize about that our myth lives like that as well. But why why is it in these films. I mean why is that the center or even part of Casablanca was part of Casablanca but because it's all the illegal stuff is going on there's a big I mean I mean why is it

what is it saying about us I was just curious about why that you know that I think I moved the plot along. I think it's a plot device that works very very well for that particular film especially if you understand that when they were making Casablanca they had no idea what they're going to be filming the next day. And Julius Epstein were writing as as they were going along. OK now this next film I have to play because it's so perfectly follows the conversation in my for segment. This one was called Lost in America it's 1985 and in this scene Albert Brooks tries to talk Gary Marshall into returning his nest egg after his wife went on a gambling binge and lost everything. To give us our money back is nothing you would be the one who would benefit. Wrong in that movie Santa Claus took care of everything. It was Macy's gimbals but Santa Claus came and he fixed the whole thing. We don't have safety floors and then we get him Sammy because we get him that's the ad campaign there goes I have the chills. We get Santa Claus he's the. On the

Billboard he had to start an ashtray. We associate for the first time ever Christmas and Los Vegas Last Vegas a Christmas place to be. I love that movie I have to tell you it's great. Brooks is always great in that film. What I like about this clip is that it kind of shows the the initial ration of this operation and in a comedic way the addiction to gambling. So through Albert Brooks film we see that there are some other films that quite show they're quite opposite side of that for example we're talking about 1974 as the gambler with James Caan a little known film there but he plays a character called Axel freed. That's a film that's very to the other side of the pendulum. This is Albert Brooks movie in that it shows the very dark side of gambling it shows the seedier side of it where he plays this this college professor who through his teachings he coincidently in his course teaches about dust you have

Skeets the gambler and he uses he intellectualize his his his addiction and sort of rationalizes it throughout this film. And at the same time shows very dark sides of it caring whether it's showing on the screen as a dark side or as comedic as Tim was saying. I'm not sure that gets through what does that mean to us that we. I think it's out there and we can see it. But does it have any resonance. I think it has a resonance in the fact that we are maybe becoming a little inured to some of the downsides to gambling that there is a social consequence to gambling. But because we see it you know in a carefree way like the sting or we see it in a bad way you know with or Owning Mahoney or some of these other films. I think we just kind of get inured to it and so we don't think it's part of our life. So it's OK if somebody else is doing it and we don't really take a look at the social consequently don't think real people get caught that way. Exactly exactly. I mean I think that's an important point because we're hearing this now in a very serious way. With some of the

policy makers with people saying hey this is very serious but yet on the film I just I have to say I've looked at Lost in America and until I saw it on your list I was thinking oh well that is about losing your money. Well there there is one film that just came out recently a very awful film actually in terms of the general plot called the Bounty Hunter. Now I was watching this film a couple of weeks ago Jennifer Aniston. Yeah. And the Gerard Butler character is very deep in debt and from his gambling. And yet there's a portion of the movie where they go to a casino and he's he's being chased by these these bad guys who want to kill him. And yet it's portrayed on the on the screen in a very comedic way so as he's in a really desperate situation. Again you're not even mentioned in any of this stuff. I mean I don't even I bet you most people listening not even know gambling was a part of that. Here's another film that makes it's very clear it's about gambling it's called Casino. This is 1995 Martin Scorsese film which takes place in the gambling motherland Las Vegas. I had it down so good that I wrote Paradise on Earth.

I had one of the biggest casinos in Las Vegas to run. Within two years. You know if I didn't have. The right way. To sue the city I guarantee it. Karen what do you think. Well I think that this is there's there's this film and there's also Bugsy which came out roughly around the same time where we start looking at the history of Las Vegas because it was such a center for is such a center for gambling. But what we're looking is at its seedy beginnings where criminals are the ones that are running the casinos. They were forced out of the east coast go into Nevada and begin a enterprise that's criminal. And the idea simply is that they're going to be skimming money they're going to getting involved in all sorts of other diff the different kinds of criminal activity and I think that the lesson that we're looking at here is that no matter what happens in these particular movies it's always going to

be run by criminals and gambling is a center for criminal activity. But in our society do we think that these criminals are. Attractive. I think that we always like criminals because they're outside of society and it's one of those issues where when you go down into a movie theater and you plop your money down and the lights come down you can fantasize about what's going to happen and you can fantasize that you're this person because we know in our real lives we really can't do that. We really can't go to a game because you know and lay down all that money and win because we know we're going to lose. Unless you're addicted to it and you also know that the people who are running these places are not necessarily legitimate. I get two things I want to bring up that I think are very interesting because they seem to portray that we can beat the house. One of them is called It was originally called Bringing Down the House. Translated on the film it was 21 and that was about MIT students coming up with a blackjack scheme to be able to do that. And the other one is the most recent one. Oceans 11 12 13 whatever you think about those movies they captured.

You know pop culture imagination. It's all about bringing down the house but it's a it's a fantasy where we are going in there thinking that we are projecting ourselves onto the screen and they are giving us that back. When you ever any time you go in to see a movie these days it's all about expectations. You have expectations of seeing a particular thing you're not necessarily being challenged. So these movies are actually pandering to a fantasy that we can take on the man win it and walk away with a lot of money and do it with style looking like Brad Pitt and George Clooney. What was interesting about casino also is that it showed the transition as we talk about these phases of the transition of gambling being a very seedy very illegal enterprise run by the mob and then becoming more mainstream where corporate America is taking over the casinos and running it and again it's become acceptable. It's become a big business casino gambling. Any one film you Tim that really portrays the reality of gambling. There was one interesting film that stands out for me and that is actually one of my favorites

from when I was a child I saw The Cincinnati Kid with Steve McQueen because it shows an aspect of gambling that we don't often think about where it's usually about the money. It's usually about trying to get out of debt. Where is that film he's playing for self respect. He's playing to be the best in the business. So he's trying to aggrandize himself become the best at this game so it's in a sense a bit of of gambling. And yet sport if you will because you know I think I would go with Rounders which is not a great film stars Matt Damon and John Malkovich but it also shows what happens when somebody who thinks that they they've really got the system down and goes and loses 30000 hours and then they have to go back and try and get that money back and the whole film is about him taking down this Russian immigrant who is now running it because the new immigrants are the Russians and they're running the game. Illegal gambling. What do you think Massachusetts citizens think about gambling. I think on these well I think well based on these problems I don't think these people are seeing a lot of it. But I think

that unfortunately I think gambling is going to pass and I think that the pendulum will swing in the and the direction of restriction probably in about 10 or 15 years. OK. That's why we're going to leave it. I guess everybody needs to go see Ocean's 11. Let's get a reality check. They're like you are we are going out on few 410 horns which is from Guys and Dolls. Karen Daly Tam Estella's thank you so much for joining us. Karen Daly is a film critic and host of the gerund Daily Show on 15 50 W A.N. and our contributor and time estimates is a film critic for The Boston Latino TV and examiner dot com you can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show by visiting our website sites WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show today's program was engineer by Jane Pippa and produced by Chelsea murders. Our production assistant is Anna white knuckle be in our production of WGBH radio. Yeah that's right. Access. So

that you would see that it's like OK. Thank God I was out the whole other. Half.