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I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Residents of tornado ravaged Joplin Missouri are picking through the rubble and trying to pick up the pieces of their lives. The Joplin tornado is the latest in a string of natural disasters of biblical proportion to Haiti's earthquake hurricane Katrina and Japan's tsunami. Left many thousands of helpless victims. And communities devastated. In a recent essay Pulitzer Prize winning author Junot Diaz says the devastation is poverty unemployment and injustice lurking below. This hour the D.S. challenges those of us living in comfort and security to open our eyes and to step up to make a difference. Plus the Republican candidates who want to make a difference as the next president. In our new feature New Hampshire insiders our resident politicos weigh in on the latest drop outs and new faces in the race to the White House. Up next natural disasters and presidential politics. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Witnesses in

Johnson County Kansas are reporting yet another tornado on the ground apparently heading toward Kansas City. No confirmation yet though from the National Weather Service but the region has been under tornado warning this day after Kansas Arkansas and Oklahoma were struck by twisters overnight that claimed at least 13 lives and two days after a powerful tornado tore through Joplin Missouri killing at least one hundred twenty two people today in Joplin survivors are combing the wreckage of several buildings hoping to find more people alive. An unknown number of residents are still unaccounted for. Hundreds more people are injured. Jennifer Moore with member station KSM Yu says the needs of patients seeking help are expanding. Initially the injuries were crushed arms and legs shed once but now doctors and nurses are starting to see more chronic illness. The diabetes folks without their insulin or somebody without their all timers medication. One of the things that was thrown up into the air with these over 200

mph winds were medication. That's Jennifer Moore with member station K.S. and you. President Obama address a British parliamentary affirming the U.S. commitment to strengthen ties with Britain today. Among the issues address the war in Afghanistan and the role of allied forces to help Afghan troops because of them. We have built the capacity of Afghan security forces and because of them we are now preparing to turn a corner in Afghanistan by transitioning to Afghan lead. And during this transition we will pursue a lasting peace with those who break. Free and respect the Afghan constitution and lay down arms. Concerns of a civil war in Libya also rank high on the president's agenda. Switzerland's cabinet has decided to gradually phase out all its nuclear power plants by 2030 for Lisa's line in Geneva reports a decision comes just days after a huge anti-nuclear protests swept through the country

shaking up the ruling establishment Switzerland's five nuclear power plants generate about 40 percent of the country's energy needs. But this eventually will be a thing of the past. Switzerland's energy minister says the existing nuclear power stations will not be replaced when they reach the end of their lifespan. This means the five plants are slated to close between 2019 and 2030 for the Swiss government suspended all new power plant construction in the wake of the partial meltdown in the Fukushima nuclear facility in Japan. The government is currently reviewing the country's energy mix in the future. For NPR News I'm Lisa in Geneva. Dow's up thirty seven 12000 393 Nasdaq up 16 a twenty seven sixty two. This is NPR. Iran says the latest U.N. report on the Islamic Republic's nuclear program is a fabrication. Today the Iranian nuclear chief

said the International Atomic Energy Agency's basing its report on wrong information provided by what he calls a few arrogant countries believed to be referring to the U.S. and its allies the West has long accused Iran of pursuing nuclear weapons. The 35 nation IAEA board is expected to focus on the matter during next month's meeting. General Motors is adding twenty five hundred workers a new assembly lines to one of its factories in Detroit Michigan Radio's Tracy Samson says the plant is where the automaker builds its flagship green car the Chevy Volt. GM will invest an additional 69 million dollars in its Detroit Hamtramck plant. The plants on a four week shutdown right now to expand production capacity of the electric hybrid car the Volt the new investment will allow the plant to also build the 2012 Chevy Malibu and Pallas sedans. GM still has about thirteen hundred people on temporary layoff. They'll be called back to work at the plant. The automaker will also hire about twelve hundred new workers. That's a much needed boost to the

Detroit and Michigan economies where tens of thousands of auto industry workers lost their jobs over the past decade. For NPR News I'm Tracy Samuelsen in Ann Arbor. More than two dozen people in three states are being held in connection with a major online sports betting ring. New York City authorities who recently announced the bust say they have also seized nearly six million dollars in assets. They say the arrests in New York New Jersey and Pennsylvania stem from a two year investigation. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Cargill and international producer and marketer of food agricultural financial and industrial products and services Cargill dot com. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. This is the Kelly Crossley Show. What can the chaos and destruction caused by the earthquakes in Haiti and Japan by Hurricane Katrina and the tornadoes ripping through the Midwest teach us rather than blaming

the fall out on a twist of fate or a spate of bad weather. Pulitzer Prize winning author Junot díaz says catastrophes are social disasters horrific events that peel back the veneer of everyday life to reveal the dysfunction and injustice lurking beneath. He says it's up to those of us living in comfort and security to stay plugged in to help out in places where destitution and deprivation are daily facts of life. And he joins us to talk about it. You know Diaz welcome. Thank you for having me. Now your essay in the Boston Review is called Apocalypse what disasters reveal and such is the nature of these recent next natural disasters that just as you were completing this it seems to be several other imaginable unimaginable events occurred that was Japan's tsunami the Mississippi flooding and now the Joplin tornado and I think anybody any any of us would think of them as apocalyptic in size and scope. But as we unpack your points that you make in your essay I think one of the

first to be made clear to our listeners is that you say that the word apocalypse has actually several meanings and that's important as you begin to make your point here. Would you explain. Yeah I'm not sort of making a religious argument at all. I mean I'm not simply saying that this is somehow connected to the larger sort of Judeo-Christian narrative about the apocalypse about the end of the world about the coming glory of God. I'm actually using apocalyptic in its most secular form. Some sort of large scale disaster that reveals something about our world and something about ourselves. And what you say it reveals about us is that we're really not paying much attention to these disasters other than when they first occur we we're sort of tuned in then and then we our attention wanders off and things are as they have been or perhaps worse but we're not aware of it.

You know our attention span is without question tied to the the sensational the spectacular. You know as I was listening to someone earlier speak Sebastian Younger were tend to be far more interested in what's happening in the front lines of a battle than we are in what's happening in the refugee camps that are produced by conflict. And I think what interested me and what I sort of was attempting to address in this essay was that what's important about or at least what can be considered useful about these nightmarish incidents that cause so much suffering is that if we pay close attention they generate they can provide us important insights about otherwise hidden aspects of our lives. Certainly what happened in Japan as we're beginning to see unfold the catastrophe. Begins to show a relationship a close

incestuous relationship between nucular industries and government to the detriment of course of the local communities and the consequences lead in many ways directly to the calamity we see now unfolding in Japan. Haiti is of course something clearly different Haiti. The earthquake that occurred in Haiti that killed nearly a quarter of a million people that caused so much distress and so much misery Ta'izz plugs fundamentally into larger questions of what we call our American Century especially for those of us who are living in the US. Haiti is never far from us and things that happen in Haiti somehow tug at us both at our level historical level but certainly at the level of the way we live our lives. My guest is Juno Dia's Pulitzer Prize winning author Juno Diaz and his essay in the Boston Review is called Apocalypse what disasters reveal now about that revelation you spent a lot of time on Haiti

actually in your in your piece talking about that sort of ripping off of the cover if you will for us to look beneath. What is it that you want us to see are that we are not seeing. Well no but I think what's sort of important is that we're all including myself have been trained to sort of focus on the fire and not the consequence we've been sort of you know trained to look at the shoot out but not what happens afterward and I think part of what I'm sort of struggling with in the essay in part of what I'm sort of arguing is that we need to look beyond just the calamity and see not only what's happening afterwards but what made the calamity possible. We can't stop an earthquake. We can't you know stay the natural hand to turn away hurricanes. But certainly there are things that we do that make populations make

communities more vulnerable in the face of natural disasters in Haiti of course the list is endless. Haiti was a country that was made exceptionally vulnerable by certain economic decisions in the United States. Certainly making me dependent on foreign food in the 90s overwhelmingly dependent on foreign food which is something the US did of course to the benefit of our sort of corporate rice growers we were like Man let's make sort of kind of an open market so our folks can get paid. But what that kind of did to poor you know poor Haiti was that it displaced so many local farmers so many agricultural workers so many folks who were otherwise distributed across Haiti suddenly found their lives imploded and they in many ways are the folks who flooded into the cities that were destroyed. They were many ways the people who were living in the substandard housing

that collapsed. They were in some ways the most direct victims and when we think about sort of the earthquake in Haiti we're rearly thinking of us rice growers but U.S. rice growers in their sort of unfair market advantage in an unfair market practices in Haiti and in many ways led to a lot of the deaths I don't want to say an enormous amount but a lot of the deaths on the ground in Haiti and this relationship is something that can be traced. But if we're only focused on the sort of tale of just the earthquake without any questions about what came before any questions what came after we lose the larger picture. Now this must be what you mean when you say in your essay and I'm quoting now We must refuse the old stories that tell us to interpret social disasters as natural disasters and earlier you say in other words disasters don't just happen. They are always made possible by a series of often invisible societal choices that implicate more than just those being drowned or buried in rubble. This is why we call them social

disasters. Yeah you know I mean that's you know these things are terrible the loss of life the suffering the traumas that these things inflict are just and for many people beyond the imagination of those who suffer will have lasting consequences but we've got to understand that business as usual in place and any culture is rearly as nakedly revealed as when a calamity strikes it. I think a lot about the inner workings of the United States. A lot of the book was hidden about our soul's full economic and political order in the United States was revealed to the world very starkly. After Hurricane Katrina no one liked it. People didn't want to talk about it or think about it people began to spin very weird and strange and untrue stories about it. But when you saw a US city being basically wiped out and it's black and brown and

poor inhabitants and banded and in many ways completely abandoned and you saw all this sort of stark poverty that the hurricane revealed the mask got torn off of HA's and suddenly you saw very honestly I think in very palpable what we're talking about when we're talking about New Orleans and what we're talking about when we're talking about America. And I think that this is something that I sort of share with many thinkers in this area is that these things are terrible. But if we you know if we take advantage of the information that they provide us if for example in Hurricane Katrina if we actually instead of just sort of you know. Shrugging our shoulders and saying these things happen we actually said wow this is sort of a wake up call of a way that we should interact with our environment of the way we should think about our urban space as a way that we should think about managing our sort of coastal areas. I think that this could reap enormous benefits. But in general we tend to turn away from the stories that disasters

give us from the sort of information the disasters provide us because that would mean that we would have to change business as usual and that for most people is deeply uncomfortable. And for people who have a stake in business as usual very on appetising it could also mean that it just feels overwhelming to people who might have interest in wanting to do more than business as usual but don't exactly know what to do. I know to comment to your article at the Boston Review from the title is so anxious Mr. Diaz I just read found your analysis excellent Would you apply your intelligence to what do we do now. What do you suggest the average person who is not avoiding the situation do. Well but I think that this is sort of this is sort of it's the kind of question that is you know this is very much a question that opens up. An enormous amount of opportunities and possibilities. I think that

simply thinking about what the implications of something like Haiti can sort of spark all sorts of activities. I mean there is any number of community organizations and community groups from in the areas where I live Boston a New York City that are desperate for people's participation in or around Haiti. One only has to go to the great master of all information Google and simply type in the word Haiti and type in the word community or community work and you will get a list of groups that will be so willing to take your assistance in your part as part of state participation. For me I think that the the opportunities for people to act in a civically engaged way are endless in our society look we can mobilize the entire country. In a matter of weeks to go to war to send their children to send my siblings and my cousins to war

based up based on some concocted myths of weapons of mass destruction. But it's a whole far has proven very difficult to mobilize folks towards a more generic and you know I would argue a more important good which is like taking care of our communities taking care of the folks who are suffering both inside and outside our country. Much more with writer Juno D.S. about how natural disasters become social disasters after this break. His new essay in the Boston Review is about the lessons we can learn in the wake of disasters like this week's tornado in Joplin Missouri. Hurricane Katrina and Haiti's earthquake last year. We'll be back after this break. Keep your dial on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Lesley University. If you want to become

a teacher or advance your education career you can attend Leslie University's School of Education graduate open house Thursday June 9th where you can explore multiple program options. Leslie dot edu and from space age NASA's story tonight on WGBH to. A history of mankind's journey into space. The Epic Story of the heroes triumphs and tragedies of space exploration concludes tonight at 8:00 on WGBH too. Bradley Cooper worked with a tiger in The Hangover Part 2 he works with a monkey who plays a cigarette smoking drug dealer who occasionally panicked Crystal would just claw into my shoulder. I mean I was like bleeding and they were I mean I had scars and we kept saying shots right. Bradley Cooper on the next and John Powers talks about Cam joining us this afternoon at two point seven.

Didn't get the item you wanted during the WGBH spring auction. The WGBH spring auction is going into extra innings. That high on the luxurious getaway for two to the seven white adults only beach front escape to relaxing Jamaica generously donated by the jewel Dunn's River Resort and Spa. It always sparkles a little brighter for the tool and Boston's TNT vacations TMT vacation is sunshine online at auction WGBH from downloads of your favorite local talk shows to video from the latest Frontline episode WGBH dot org is the site to see more and experience more of your favorite WGBH programs. That's online at WGBH dot org. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking with Pulitzer Prize winning author Juno Diaz author of drowned

and The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao. His new essay in the Boston Review is called Apocalypse what disasters reveal and it's about the lessons learned or the lessons we can learn in the wake of natural disasters. Mr. Diaz I noted that you're as I said before your article focuses a lot on Haiti you have quite a bit of detail about that particular natural disaster turned social disaster. And I wondered how your your background as a person from the Dominican Republic was influenced in the writing of this piece and there's a tortured history between the Dominican Republic and Haiti. But you spent a lot of time talking about how. People in the D.R. came to the rescue of Haiti which was different from the maybe perhaps some of the relationships in the past. I wonder if you could speak to that. Yeah well you know I mean I think that the the Dominican Republic has always kind of been a proxy in some ways or a way of understanding Haiti's relationship with

the West. Rest of the world. You know when Haiti sort of overthrew slavery in 1790 it was the kind of massive shock to the nervous system of European civilization that it would be almost impossible to reproduce in contemporary society. And this shock of the black community demanding and declaring itself as basically human beings is something that I think we all wrestle with at the level at a global level to this day. I mean that shock from 1790 is basically the same sort of all day shows shock of the possibility of us having a black president that seemed like such an impossibility when Barack Obama began his race. Now I think that same as it's sort of difficult I think in the western world to always imagine. Full humanity for people of African descent historically I think the Dominican Republic has

shared many of these biases there's been much tension much strife. There's an enormous amount of discrimination and violence directed Haitian to mannequins and Haitian immigrant communities in the Dominican Republic. But what I thought was interesting about the earthquake in Haiti was that for once the sort of polarity of that discrimination the polarity of that bias shifted and you had Dominik ins who had historically and traditionally been very hostile to Haiti and to its Haitian immigrant communities suddenly going above and beyond anyone to sort of provide aid for the victims of the Haitian earthquake. And for me it was one of these grace notes in an otherwise terrible dirge where you had people who normally would never have any sort of motivation or interest suddenly reversing direction completely and being just energized in attempting to help a community so nearby which has always

seemed so far away. In addition of that Haiti just recently elected a new president someone who had not been in public office before in fact a very popular singer. How will his election contribute to or will it contribute to maybe stopping the business as usual as you spoke of before. It's a tough question right. It's one of those things where you're like you know you want to hope that an individual can alter you know the course of history can alter the sort of the way the things work but that's really a lot of demand and I think Haiti very much the way that the damage done to New Orleans required a national effort required sort of national sacrifice for our country the US in ways that we were able to sort of rise to it. I think Haiti requires more than just electing a new president even if you elected Jesus

Christ. I would. Doubt the Jesus Christ would be able to take care of the matter I think that you need sort of a global plan and a global project to bring Haiti to a state of health. And I think that this is something that we are scarcely asked to do again as a country we're often asked to sacrifice our young people and young women to war. But almost never in the contemporary period are we asked to sort of cut down on our lifestyles a little bit so that someone else can manage a chance of life for another country or another city can be revived. That's not very common but I sometimes wish it would be. Do you equate all of these I mean these and these horrific national natural disasters in the last. It feels like last two days but they seem one after another. You know first there is Haiti then there's the tsunami in Japan and there's we're looking at this damage done in Joplin Missouri I wonder if all of these on the plane

on the same plane of what they reveal. It's hard to say one has to of course wait and see how these things shake out. You know some stuff just is like a terrible incident and there may not be larger lessons drawn from it. Other things there's sort of a smoking gun. The way that the nuclear industry in Japan sort of operated with almost no safeguards in an enormous amount of fraud. I think that was a smoking gun. What happened in New Orleans the way that the Bush administration before and after almost entirely abandoned New Orleans and sort of made possible Katrina's damage I think that there is a smoking gun. But you never know. You never know I think that certainly what these disasters have in common is that we need to have different relationships with each other. We need to be more inclined to reach out and help each other. We need to be more sort of ready to go when it comes to

providing aid I think that one of the things that's happened in our society is that we've become so Adam ised that like the comment that you mentioned earlier the thought of helping someone the thought of what do we do next seems so overwhelming because most of us have been removed from the institutions like churches like community groups where this kind of help in this kind of sort of formula for providing aid for people you know is present most of us don't have access to that anymore. Do you know Deah is your official bio says that you were interested in apocalypses of all sort early on in your life which says to me that you're not an optimistic person and in fact that's what you say in your essay you say truth be told I'm not very optimistic. I mean just look at us. No I'm not optimistic. But that doesn't mean I don't have hope. Do I contradict myself. Then I contradict myself. So explain it explain to her listeners how it is that you are contradicting yourself there because you're not very optimistic we can see. But you have hope.

Well no I but I think that depends on what's the the formulation you want. If it's kind of the American formulation where if you say a negative thing or if you say a critical thing that means you're not optimistic. Certainly I would fall far short of that. But when I'm not I'm not saying that your essay is pretty intense though. Yeah. On the negative. But you know we're talking about a quarter of a million dead people. Yeah. You know we're talking about a million people deeply affected it would be hard to spin sort of mirroring confection out of that. I just think that my thinking is that simply because you see the faults or that you see the cracks in Evey's doesn't mean that you don't think that these worthy of love. And my thing is that even though I think that perhaps our backs are up against it or perhaps that we're not doing the best we can by each other and certainly by places like New Orleans or Haiti. It doesn't mean that I don't believe fundamentally in with all my heart they were capable of doing exactly what we need to do to make things right. I'm been a kid

who's spent most of his life doing community work. Who even though I know there's this many poor people in this country. Well that means I've got to work this much harder. You know so for me it's like I think having a very cold eye is not linked in some ways to not having hope. I have a very cold eye about the world but I also have an enormous amount of hope which sort of. Has been exercised in the amount of community work that I'm interested in in the ways that I think people should help each other in my teaching and I think those two things are there's nothing wrong with that I think we're often taught that the only way that you can be optimistic is by never pointing out a negative or critical thing in your life. And I'm sort of thinking and hope exists first in identifying that there is a problem and then imagining that we are capable of fixing it. Well I do like this part of your essay where you say we must stare into the ruins bravely and resolutely and we must see. And then we must act which is something you've just sort of referred to as your own actions and you go on to say our very lives depend on

it. I wonder if you were crafting this essay now. Beyond that the impact of Haiti and the tsunami and all the stuff that's happened recently would it be different. Or would you have some other no. You might want to share with us. Well I just think you know there might be more examples. You know it's sort of like. There may be more kind of cases. But I do think in general what I sort of think is important is that no matter what people say who want to deny the way that our lifestyles are impacting the planet we are eating our world alive. We are just destroying the only patrimony that we've ever had which is our planet. And you know whichever way you want to spin it it's true. We're eating this place. We're kind of despoiling it. And I do think that eventually as a species as a race as a group as a communion as a unity we're going to the side. That enough is enough and we're going to

figure out various strategies of how we might curtail some of this damage and I do think our lives depend on it. I think this time between now and the day that we decide to actively and seriously protect our planet the way that we actively and seriously pursue profit. I think when we reach that moment that time I think is the time of danger for us until we reach that all of us are under threat in the world that could at any moment collapse under the weight of our activity. Well thank you very much. You know Diaz this is been a fabulous conversation and quite thoughtful. We've been talking with Pulitzer Prize winning author Juno Diaz. He is a professor of creative writing at MIT and the author of The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao. He's also the fiction editor of the Boston Review where he recently published his essay apocalypse what disasters reveal. Up next we look at how the presidential election is playing out in New Hampshire. Don't go away. We'll

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2011. Join the WGBH News Club with a gift of one hundred twenty dollars and eighty nine point seven will send you two complimentary tickets. Details at WGBH dot org. If it would be possible in the world he had seen. Didn't you see him in front. He is wrong and he defines good by luck. Coming up at 3 o'clock on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. This is the Kelly Crossley Show the presidential race is heating up with no end of Republican candidates tossing their hats into the ring to find out how the race is developing. We head to the state that can turn a candidate into a President or into an also ran. We're talking about New Hampshire in this edition of New Hampshire insiders. I'm joined by radio and TV commentator Arnie Arneson and Fergus Cullen columnist for The New Hampshire union leader and former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party. Welcome to you both.

Hey thank you go. Well there is a lot going on I think that if I can begin this way The New York Times seems to be spelling it out this morning pointing to Representative Paul Ryan's Medicare plan as the actual reason for the victory of Democrat Cathy hot chill I don't know how to pronounce her name I think that's correct. In New Hampshire she won in a race that nobody would have said that she would have won just a few weeks ago. What say you Fergus about the impact of Paul Ryan's plan and how it might be playing out politically not just in this race but in the presidential one. Well I think Special elections are often blown way out of proportion and I would say that even had the Republicans won this particular seat outside of Buffalo in New York it was a narrow win for the Democrats by three or four points there was a third party candidate spoiler a former Democrat who had run for the seat three times this time declared himself a Tea

Party member which may or may not have had an impact in the outcome. But it is true that Paul Ryan has come forward with an ambition impishness plan that actually does address some of the complicated issues like entitlements and there's some political price to be paid for showing that kind of political courage. And it's actually had I think more of an impact on Newt Gingrich's presidential campaign than it did on this one congressional seat in western New York. Now what I think is interesting. I want to get you to comment on this before I move over to Arnie. The Politico has a big piece saying the poll numbers on this plan on Paul Ryan's plan and then I'm quoting from them were so toxic nearly as bad as those of President Barack Obama's health reform bill at the nadir of its unpopularity. That staffer is with the National Republican Congressional Committee warned a leadership you might not want to go there. In a series of tense pre-vote meetings So Fergus that would seem to suggest that it might have more staying power beyond a special election but. It might have it might really mean something later on in this presidential race.

It's so unfortunate that it's so easy to demagogue these important issues and this is why we have a Social Security system which is going broke why we're having unsustainable entitlement programs like Medicare that need reform that need modernization because it's so easy for someone to put up a real thoughtful plan and have the other side just strafe it with bullets for you know for political purposes I mean it's a real challenge and it's a challenge for the left and the right. I mean health care policy you mentioned that it's also a very important complicated issue. Governor Romney in Massachusetts stepped forward with a with a plan trying to address this complicated issue and now he's getting hammered for it. I mean I hope we aren't at a point where no politician or public official can talk about serious issues in a serious thoughtful way that just for political purposes that is not the kind of change that the public was looking for in 2008 or in 2010. Arnie here's it. There's a point that Fergus is making that I've heard others make and that is they really do applaud Representative Ryan for sticking his neck out even though he's getting way now. And you know they're pointing out that a lot of people are just chicken.

Some people are saying that about Senator Scott Brown who said can't go along with it and has backed away from it. Well first of all I got to get my shovel out because I just can't believe some of the stuff that Fargus just said because. Fergus if you look at the race in New York the New York 26 race wasn't by a few points that she won she won by a hand. I mean like I was that 48 to 42 which I think is a pretty decent race. She was running against two self-funded millionaires. So that was pretty impressive. We saw tons and tons of outside money she was outspent at least two to one in that race. And it turns out that the Republican changed her tune on Ryan and Medicare because Ryan's plan is not about reforming Medicare. It is about basically removing the concept of Medicare. When you turn Medicare into a voucher plan you are not reforming it. You are changing the very nature of Medicare and on another note the real problem here for Republicans because nobody can touch Medicare let me explain what I mean when Obama was talking about his health care plan. It was the Republican

Party when they were fighting the Obamacare plan that was screaming about his cuts to Medicare. This is what the Republicans were doing. So now the Republicans as Chuck Schumer says they're in a pretzel because you've got Ryan who wants to create the voucher system of Medicare. And you had the Republicans when they were fighting Obama and Obamacare or basically challenging Obama because he wanted to make some changes to Medicare you can't have it both ways. A pox on both their houses. Calley and that's a real problem for Republicans because Newt Gingrich is just on this incredible flip flop. Huntsman's afraid to complete the sentence. Everybody is sort of going ho hum because they know that it's not just the third rail but both parties have stigmatized the conversation. It doesn't belong to one party or the other. They all use it to their political advantage. And that's a problem for the country. Well speaking of Newt Gingrich he came out in opposition to Wisconsin Representative Paul Ryan's budget proposal and then he took heat from the GOP party insiders but here he is on Fox News

acknowledging a change of heart. The fact is that I have supported what Ryan's tried to do on the budget. The fact is that my newsletter strongly praised the budget when he brought it out and the budget vote is one that I'm happy to say I would have voted for. I will defend and I'll be glad to answer any Democrat who attempts to distort what I said. All right so there's one guy who's not back in a second. Away from it I mean he had to get smacked to come back around but he's he's back around he's on program now. Fergus That's good right that's what you're saying is just this is just a momentary thing in New York and we're going to see people you know wake up and realize that they have to take a stand and a bold one. You know it's what I'm saying is that there's sort of a different standard that Newt Gingrich is being held to I mean he's just a month into his campaign and you know just on Monday two days ago I went and saw Governor Huntsman in Durham New Hampshire at a house party and you know I have to say you made a good favorable in first impression. But his talk was very short on specifics on substance and he didn't take

Q&A. Well I think people give him the benefit of the doubt as a new candidate they say he's he's honing his message he's testing different themes. Well you know Newt Gingrich has been in public life for 30 years or more than 40 years almost and he's even though he's only been a candidate for a month. As soon as he makes one mistake people jump all over him. I just think it's a proof of the old political adage that you know your friends die off and your enemies accrue. Clearly people were piling on to Newt Gingrich last week I feel badly for him. Well if even if he did more exciting than this though because last night as the Medicare concept was getting creamed in the New York special election that you know for August. And think is real. Newt was so impressed with his new position on Medicare that he actually sent a letter out to all the House Republicans saying the road ahead cheerfully keep telling the truth and I'm gone really Which truth and which week. I mean that's going to be the problem for Gingrich and you saw it in the state of Massachusetts. Scott Brown has already said he's not going to support the Ryan Medicare plan.

Huntsman is doing the the double talk because he sort of says oh it's good to have everything on the table. It's important for us to have this conversation. But as someone described it in Politico Huntsman's position on Ryan's Medicare plan is the word hazy. And I think the problem is is that when you play this out and this is this is the issue people are so frightened about health care that I heard a guy the other day say Calley that he can't wait till he's 65. Why. Because that at least will be the one time when he won't have to worry about being on insured. People don't get it. It is the stability of Medicare that even the Tea Party people didn't want the Republicans to touch. And now Ryan has made a decision to do. Something and all the Republicans are being asked to either do the walk and walk with Ryan or try to figure out how to say something that might still be you know resonate with voters. And that's the problem you have voters in this make not just conservative politicians.

My guests are New Hampshire insiders Arnie Arneson and Fergus Cullen. Arnie Arnesen is a radio and TV commentator and Fergus Cullen is a former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party and columnist for The New Hampshire Union Leader. Now Fergus a few minutes ago you made the transition for me to Jon Huntsman and that's by way of my noting that a lot of folks that people were saying would be good candidates Mitch Daniels chief among them this week said No Mike Huckabee has said no. Mitch Daniels has said no. Jon Huntsman still exploring says he's going to let us know in a while. I'm going to let our listeners hear a bit from hear you say yes. Well Arnie says he's a little hazy and you say he's unformed but anyway here he is in an interview with ABC News former Utah Utah Governor Jon Huntsman. Huntsman was asked by an interviewer whether he supports Representative Paul Ryan's budget proposal. And here he is answering that and a question about Medicare. I would have voted for including the Medicare provisions including the Medicare provisions

because the only thing that scares me more than that is the trajectory that our debt is taking. And the trajectory that our debt is taking now beyond 14 trillion dollars is going to have an impact on our currency. They go south and our currency is going to have an impact on our standard of living and affect every family in this country. And oh and over time our international competitiveness. So what is really scary I think to me and I think most Americans is our debt. Now Fergus you say you know his thoughts are still a little bit on form because he's brand new to this game but I've heard a lot of people say really some comparing him to John F. Kennedy to young John F. Kennedy saying he's got the look he certainly got the money he's got the stature he's already committed himself to being civil. Lot going for him but I'm not seeing him ranking high still in the in the polling. Yeah he's his name recognition is clearly had zero percent in New Hampshire right now but that will change in time he did talk about the civility angle the other day. He's not an angry

candidate. And you know right now what I've been seeing Howie is a lot of candidates in New Hampshire on the Republican side campaigning at the same 20 percent base activists the so-called new activists or Tea Party voters. They're the kinds of people are showing up at Republican events these days Lincoln Day dinners that kind of thing. There hasn't been a candidate who's been campaigning directly at the broad mainstream primary electorate the other 80 percent and somebody like Jon Huntsman might have a real opportunity to gain a lot of points there as his name recognition goes up I'm sure of course they'll be paid advertising down the way I think he's going to get some significant market share in New Hampshire and he has every reason to think that he might be the one who emerges as the primary challenger to Mitt Romney in New Hampshire who continues to have a very strong organization there and clearly is the front runner in the polls with a lot of genuine support. Arnie I want to talk about Mitt because Mitt had to be very concerned about Jon Huntsman I mean I'm going to quote Andy Smith who is the pollster from Una. And he says you know so who is confident and he says he's another Mormon governor from Utah with an Obama

problem. How does he differentiate himself. But remember. Jon Huntsman just spent five days in New Hampshire and unlike Mitt he is very charming. He is very affable. He has a very sort of comfortable position when he's with people I mean Romney is always sort of somewhat off putting he's more remote as a candidate and people of all they know him and they're kind of looking for someone else. Most of the electorate in New Hampshire right now. Yes. If the election were tomorrow would vote for Mitt Romney because they could pick him out of a lineup. But they don't want Mitt Romney. They really are looking for someone else. And what's interesting about Huntsman is that he has a lot of the assets of a Mitt Romney but not some of the liabilities and when it comes to issues some of the social issues. Remember New Hampshire is a very libertarian state and when it comes to you know gay issues he's a little more hands off if she says you know what. You know I mean he's more for civil unions maybe not gay marriage. So he has a little bit of quirkiness when it comes to some of the social stuff. And when it comes to economic issues on like Mitt Romney who's talking jobs and the economy

if you listen to Huntsman he really is stressing you heard in that clip he really is talking the language of the Republicans right now which is deficit. Deficit deficit and he's really talking about that and what does that mean for our future. Well one of the other assets and I would love both of you to weigh in on this that he has is the ability to to raise money as we know that Mitt Romney raised 10 million dollars in a day on Jon Huntsman if he gets in his getting And later so that means I don't know how much is left on the table for him. But people are analysts are saying this guy has the ability to attract the big money. What do you think Fergus. Well it's unproven yet I mean his family has wealth my understanding that is that it comes from the patent on the Big Mac container those crime shells How about that really say you know somebody right now is drinking fruity drinks with umbrellas on a beach because they invented the post-it. You know all these things can can make a billionaire apparently. But but whether he can raise money I think is open an open question but he will have all the resources he needs as will all the other candidates to run a full fledged

campaign in New Hampshire and then the question is you know can they sell everyone in New Hampshire gets that level playing field. And I agree with something that Arnie said and people are looking for an alternative to Mayor because they don't like him because that's the nature of the promise primary just like last time. You know people are looking for an alternative to John McCain I remember in 1906 when people were looking for an alternative to Bob Dole. It became Pat Buchanan. I'm sort of curious whether that alternative will come from the mainstream of the Republican Party somebody like Governor Huntsman or whether old come for Temple and tea for example or whether it come from sort of the alternative insurgent outsider wing of the party. Something like what Pat Buchanan was to Bob Dole back in 1996 I think is a very open question right now. Arnie can you raise money and can he cross over and raise some money I mean he just worked for Barack Obama. Well I'm not sure he can cross over and raise some money but I do think he can raise money I do think he's he's got a great presentation and he's very charming and I think he will sell very well in New Hampshire because I think he does have the assets of Romney and none of the liabilities are

Romney. And he was adored as governor of Utah he was adored by both Democrats and Republicans in Utah and that's one of the most red the states in the nation. So if he comes to his conservative credentials he's got conservative credentials. But. He speaks well he's kind of a globalist. He's just been the ambassador to China. I mean I think people are yearning for someone who can work with both sides. But his history as governor as well as working for Barack Obama shows that he has that he will get respect from Democrats which is an asset they won't vote for him but they will respect him. I mean I'm looking right now at what's happening for the Republicans and they desperately need that. I mean Newt Gingrich doesn't just have his flip flop on Ryan and the whole Medicare thing. He has this problem with Tiffany's and that half million dollar line of you know I think he had a Tiffany's. I mean I hate to break it to you but it is a time when the economy is going to hell in a handbasket and people are still worrying about work. They hear this guy talk about fiscal conservatism and have a lot of credit for half a million dollars at Tiffany's. People are starting to take. Pictures of his wife and her Bob all around her neck saying was this one of the items you

were buying. I mean that's a distraction that he can't afford. And last but not least we haven't talked about I think the other candidate is going to be so interesting and I don't know if you know this yet FERGUSON But Sarah Palin has made the movie. So remember Hillary the Movie that Citizens United used to try to tarnish Hillary Clinton. Well Sarah Palin has a movie that's going to come out this summer both in Iowa as well in New Hampshire. And it's going to be a very sort of positive blush of her relationship and her you know her success as the governor of Alaska. And you have to ask yourself how will Sarah Palin the movie impact this race. Because she wants to sort of redefine her history not as John McCain's E.P. But as this great remarkable governor in Alaska. Now let me just say fun. I think Sarah Palin is over and here is the woman that I think has some chance in all of this is just my opinion. At a rally in Ohio Michele Bachmann edged closer to making an announcement about whether she'll be running in 2012.

I think what I bring to the table is the fact that I'm a bold strong constitutional conservative and I'm willing to stand up and fight for our values that people are concerned about. They want us to take the country back. And it's my firm convention conviction that we have to start making things in the country again. I think she's got a lot of energy for guys. You know Cal you make a great point Sarah Palin is already running for president and her name is Michele Bachmann. I mean it's really it's really the same demographic in a lot of ways a lot of the same appeal. But you know politics abhors a vacuum you mention that Governor Daniels from Indiana took a pass on the race I make no bones about it I was a huge I am a huge Mitch Daniels fan would really want to see him run. He's declined Haley Barbour has declined Mike Huckabee who I don't think was all that serious a candidate potentially has declined. And so now you do get other candidates who are thinking about coming in whenever a tree falls in the forest there's room opened up for new saplings. So now you've got you know people like this congressman from from Michigan who was thinking about jumping in and the number of others. I would be surprised if Sarah

Palin becomes an actual candidate down the road. I think it is true that her her sway and influence has probably declined a little bit in the last six months. But you know she has stressed her more than 15 minutes of fame into a number of years she is an influential force within the party with a very strong grassroots following and support. You know I don't think I think she would struggle as a candidate to get nominated but she would change the dynamics of the race in a very very big way. And they also make a point about Michele Bachmann though Fergus and that is remember Michele Bachmann. She gave a come. Heating up state of the Union address. I mean we had the president there we had Paul Ryan and then we had Michele Bachmann do her own thing. I don't think the Republican Party was very excited when Michele decided to have her or her Tea Party address. And then you look at how many you know freshman reps or members of Congress she has attracted to her wing of the party and to her Tea Party group and she really hasn't attracted that message of a following in Congress. So you know what. You know she may be all fire and brimstone she may get people excited and she may be you know Sarah Palin probably. But I'm not quite sure if she's going to go

anywhere and we'll find out how well she does a New Hampshire because I believe she's coming out this weekend for the Memorial Day weekend that the question is what will be her Memorial Day. It'll be interesting. Are you saying that she is the Dennis CUSA niche of the Republican Party is now this Saturday. OK Fergus I have a question for you based on the column you just wrote which I think is very interesting. And in it you're really saying that it's over for Iowa as the first stop or the first place. Just just because they've gone too far to the right here is a quote from your column. Even evangelical Christians and social conservatives are key components of the diverse Republican coalition. But in Iowa they are the dominant faction 60 percent of Republican caucus goers are evangelical Christians in New Hampshire and they are 23 percent. And your point is that that's driving a false result there. You know I say this mostly in sadness not in anger. And this was a piece written for the New Hampshire Union Leader which the Des Moines Register reprinted a couple weeks ago two Sundays ago and then the

following day Governor Branstad in Iowa held a press conference to denounce it. Which suggested that maybe it struck a nerve. Yeah I think that Iowa has a real problem because of what happened in the last primary or caucus where Mike Huckabee won and it seemed like a huge part of the electorate was closed minded to considering Mitt Romney because of his faith. And so if the Iowa caucus has become effectively an evangelical primary and if you are a more secular candidate who is mostly motivated by fiscal issues and you feel like you can't get a fair hearing then you decide not to play and then you know if candidates skip Iowa then when there has less meaning the national press as they ought to starts to discount it. And the Iowa caucus as we've known it goes away and again I'm not a caucus I think the early states have served the nation well. I describe Iowa New Hampshire as like childhood friends who have grown apart and no longer have much in common. But I hate to say this Cali but exactly what Fergus just described is the problem with the Republican Party if

they were to face the Republican Party. You have now met the evangelicals of Iowa and now you've met the economically. 50 k did folks of New Hampshire and that is exactly the divide between the Republican Party. And yet we even have a Tea Party chairman in New Hampshire who basically suggested at the very beginning of his you know reign as the chairman that they have to meet the standards of their platform and included in the platform in New Hampshire is something that isn't even consistent with New Hampshire Republicans which is a very fundamentalist almost evangelical position on many of the social issues Fergus. That's the problem. Your party is split. It is not that Iowa and New Hampshire have gone in different directions. Is that the party is so torn apart. And is there a Republican who can actually straddle those two things a Republican that can do that is a Republican that may be successful. But if you suggest that they shouldn't show up in Iowa because Iowa has now been captured by evangelicals. Let me introduce you to half of the Republicans in this country.

Fergus you want to respond quickly. Well I mean it is a challenge that the Republican Party is facing now it looks successful parties are coalitions of different groups I think it's the same on the left with labor union Democrats you've got you know highly educated elites in college campuses and they've they've got their own splits and diversity are all that they have to navigate. OK well folks we'll be having this conversation more and more in the upcoming weeks. That's a wrap for this edition of New Hampshire insiders. We've been talking about how the presidential race is playing out in New Hampshire. I've been joined by radio and TV commentator Arnie Arnesen and Fergus Cullen columnist for The New Hampshire union leader and former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party. Thank you both. Well thanks guys. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. Or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. We are a production of WGBH radio Bostons NPR station for news and culture.