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I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Cali crossing show. More than 80 years ago Harvard historian Carter G Woodson founded Negro History Week which we now know as Black History Month. His America was decidedly different than the one we inhabit today. It was a time of cross burnings lynchings and the household hero such as Rosa B Parks and Martin Luther King were decades away. So today nearly 85 years on with the Obamas in the White House as Black History Month been rendered obsolete. Could now be the time to integrate the African-American experience into a comprehensive understanding of this country's heritage. Are we using our presidents accomplishments to scapegoat so much that remains undone. And on learned We'll wrap up the hour unearthing the buried brain in a new book. Writer Shankar Vedantam explores the power of our unconscious mind. Up next on the callee Crossley Show black history and a brain in hiding. First the news. From NPR News in Washington ancora Coleman the mid-Atlantic section of the country is bracing for a new blizzard that could dump up to two feet of snow before it finishes on Wednesday. Daniel

Carson reports it's heaping big economic worries on businesses. The Washington region region is still digging itself out of last weekend's mega snowstorm. Many businesses that shut down were hoping to turn the corner this week. Now they'll get hammered again. Regional figures show the D.C. area's economy generates about 400 billion dollars a year. George Mason University Steven Fuller says there are winners and losers with the snowstorm grocery stores are doing gang of business restaurants florists beauty parlor which are suffering. So there's a lost business that won't be regained in some areas. But Fuller says February tends to be a slow month anyway. Fewer tourists in town. However some are doing a hopping business now on Starbucks where I'm standing in front of. Knowing you can't get in the place it's fate. For NPR News I'm Danielle Karson in Washington. Toyota is recalling another batch of vehicles to fix problems nearly 440000 Prius and Lexus vehicles need repair for brake

matter. Some drivers have complained of lags when pushing brakes especially when driving over bumpy roads. The brake problem adds to Toyota's recalls for millions of vehicles with gas pedals. Some of those are sticky others got trapped under floor mats. Toyota has now recalled well over 8 million vehicles around the world for emergency maintenance. President Obama met today with Republican and Democratic legislative leaders in hopes of forging more bipartisan cooperation on the economy. NPR's Scott Horsley reports. The first item on the agenda for today's meeting was a jobs bill. President Obama said both Republicans and Democrats have ideas that should encourage small businesses to start hiring. The president has proposed a targeted tax incentive and a measure to increase credit for small firms. Mr. Obama said he also plan to spend some time listening to the GOP. I think it's fair to say that. The American people are frustrated with the lack of progress on some key issues. And although the parties are not going to agree on every single item there

should be some areas where we can agree. Mr Obama cited deficit reduction as another area where there is room for cooperation and he plan to urge lawmakers to speed confirmation of some of his key nominees. Scott Horsley NPR News the White House. Japan Airlines has decided to stick with partner American Airlines and rejected a friendly bid from rival Delta Airlines. Japan Airlines is in bankruptcy protection and is selling off some routes in Asia both American and Delta wanted those valuable routes. Delta has failed bid was worth a billion dollars. American Airlines was already a partner with Japan Airlines and the jail decision means Japan. Japanese airlines will stay under the American umbrella. On Wall Street the Dow's up one hundred ninety one. This is NPR. Billy says several dozen Iranians threw stones and eggs at the Italian embassy in Tehran today. Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini says the protest was hostile but none of the attackers was able to get inside. Last week Italy called on Iran to cut back on its nuclear program efforts although Iran has refused.

Italy says even though it's Iran's biggest trading partner in the European Union Italy wants more sanctions put on Iran. Ukraine's prime minister to Elliot is still refusing to concede defeat in the wake of Sunday's presidential election. The prime minister alleges voter fraud. We have more from NPR's David Greene. Prime Minister to the fiery speaker who was a catalyst in Ukraine's 2004 Orange Revolution is weighing her options. Her campaign says there may have been election fraud Sunday double voting and vote buying. And one Ukrainian newspaper reports to go was defiant in a meeting with her party Monday night and is determined to challenge the election in court. If Tymoshenko loses it will be a defeat not just for her but for the legacy of the Orange Revolution. Since that Democratic Movement voters have been disillusioned and angry that their lives haven't improved. On Monday international election observers said the 2004 Orange Revolution has brought a fair election process to Ukraine one that was on display Sunday so the observers said

it was time for everyone including Prime Minister Tymoshenko to accept the results. David Greene NPR News. Lawmakers in Nigeria have voted to transfer power from the country's president to Vice President Goodluck Jonathan on an acting basis. Nigerian President Umaru has been hospitalized in Saudi Arabia since last November. I'm CORBA Coleman NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the pajama Graham company offering the hoodie for the Snuggle suit delivered overnight and for Valentine's Day and pajama Graham dot com. It's live and it's local. Coming up next two hours of local talk the Emily Rooney show and the callee Crossley Show. Only on WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show to lend your voice to the conversation give us a call. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70.

That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Today we're asking the question is Black History Month past its prime and if not how should we be observing a month's worth of history that spans thousands of years. Joining us to discuss the role of Black History Month is Beverly Morgan Welch verion Baldwin and Rochelle Riley. Beverly Morgan Welch is the executive director of Boston's Museum of African-American history. They're very involved one is the Paul eraser distinguished professor of American studies at Trinity College and Rochelle Riley is a metro columnist for The Detroit Free Press. What is your experience of black history month. Do you see it as merely an opportunity for booksellers to showcase the works of Langston Hughes and Lorraine Hansberry or is it a reminder that as long as we observe Black History Month our school children are not learning this history year round. We want to hear your take. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Beverly Morgan Welch devouring involved 1 and Rochelle

Wiley. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Now yesterday we sent our interne Cindy Lindbergh to the Boston University campus to ask students if they thought Black History Month was still relevant. We treat it with significance here because Dr. King was a graduate student here in theology program. And of course I don't think. Race relations have improved to the point that we can treat it as. A moot issue. And so having an opportunity to celebrate. You know a sense of racial pride and integrity is a good thing. But I think it's also. For a lot of people become kind of an empty festivity. Yeah I mean like a relevant day it should be celebrated. We have Women's History Month to that. MARTIN I want to get you there. But I don't think people really think about it unless they talk about it in class which these are high school and I don't know. That.

Much in college. You know in all honesty I think. There's just lip service given to it. I think it's sort of. Trite. I don't think it exactly. Conveys and creates the consciousness that it's intended to. Beverly Morgan Welch of Boston's African-American History Museum. How do you respond to that. Well I it's hard to disagree with the notion that by and large celebrations tend to be the people that come to them camp tend to be people who are aware from African-American history who read a lot who are engaged in who are coming because there's some sort of a special speaker who's going to shed new light and provide a sense of pride or historical knowledge. But if you Google Black History Month you get about one hundred twenty million sites and the beginning sites are

all about selling posters and books and other things I thought I might take a look at that before I came here and and it gives that one the sense that it's extremely commercial and not very meaningful. However the history is not being taught in the schools. An organization like ours works with a lot of teachers doing teacher summer institutes. We are teaching black history every month of the year and see it as American history. But it does provide an opportunity and we do have to respond as an institution when we have people's attention and we don't have a lot of people's attention during that time except those persons who look up and say you know I'd like to do something meaningful this month. We have a number of parents who will bring their children to the museum for instance during the February vacation in order to be able to begin to talk to them about African-American history very involved one of Trinity College How do you hear

what those students said. Yeah first of all I'm a bit impressed with some of the level of complexity that I heard from some of the students with regards to the need to engage with African-American history but recognizing the kind of a commercial component that has taken on more prominence in later years. So but I also come from the perspective as a as a consultant with a high school and elementary school teachers. In the sense that they are clamoring for ways to teach it and a feeling of an inability to really engage with some of the latest scholarship let alone some of the basic facts of African-American history. You know like everyone else here I see it as American history but I also see it as bigger than American history particularly you look at some like Haiti and its implications for the U.S. or other things I think that yeah it's American history but it's also you know within this current vogue with globalization conditions that happen without throughout the diaspora affect the U.S. and

other you know European or Euro American countries in profound ways that need to be addressed and recognized. Now before Rochelle before I have you respond to the students let me by way of introduction to the listeners have them know that you wrote a column about a year ago in which you said it was you know Black History Month. Time out for that it's over and you have some concerns about how it's perceived now. In fact I'm going to read a quote from something you said in AOL Black Voices. It's not that black history month is wrong it is that it's misused. Having a special time to celebrate the contributions of African Americans to our American history is wonderful when it is used as a substitute for teaching black history to all students all year round. We are stunting the educational growth of students of all colors and backgrounds. I think that's kind of where Beverly Morgan Welch was coming from. So why do you say no need for black history month period then Rochelle Riley.

Well here's the deal. Friends in in need and in allowing us to continue to segregate our history lessons. I think that we are not teaching American history when we are only teaching part of it. Thereby stunning the growth and value of one group of students while we are standing the growth and education of all students. I can't help but wonder how much farther along we would be as an American people if we had been teaching the total history to our children all the time. When you look at a certain group of people and you see nothing that they've contributed and you don't understand the value and the struggle and the life and the history then. Then how can you be expected to act or react any differently. And I think that's the shame of what we do with our educational system. It's not that black history month is not a great thing I think that what Dr. Carter G Woodson did was fabulous but it was like the first step and we've been stuck on the first step for decades. Carnegie Woodson for listeners who don't know created Negro History Week in the one thousand twenty is and then it was expanded to black history month

though as Beverly Morgan Welch says she teaches it 365 days a year at the Boston's African-American Museum of History. So what do you say to people who you know responding to what Rochelle said. Listen you know it's a good thing to have it but we we need more. Well part of what we try to do is to to get people to think about doing something on a on a regular basis this is not this is a very complex history as the other participants have said this is international it. It explains so much about our economy health systems. You can you could teach world history from the perspective of the African Diaspora and and American history. So the I think the important thing to do is to encourage adults to take time particularly with children. We we blame them for not valuing for not

understanding for not knowing. But it is a very deliberate road to go down to try and introduce them to this history that is very complex in many ways X-rated. And to find ways of telling them about the triumphs as well as the challenges and we very much focus on the triumphs because so many people are stuck on stereotypes and a picture of slavery that isn't real. Either that isn't really true and without romanticizing it. For instance we did an exhibit recently with the Federal Reserve Bank on black entrepreneurs of the 18th and 19th centuries. The title alone has throws most people off because most people be it adults or children have no notion that black people or heads were starting businesses employing PR

successful exactly marketing their businesses and so on. As early as the seventeen hundreds. Does it have to be an either or proposition. The very end that we rid ourselves of Black History Month and then you know try to force because that's what it's going to be and by the way several people have tried to integrate this history by way of the formal curriculum process and it's not happened. Even though certain school systems have said they are interested in it it still hasn't happened. I definitely think it does not have to be an either or kind of equation here from the perspective from our perspective. Why wouldn't you try to integrate mainstream history for example from a position of strength which is precisely what Carnegie Woodson was advocating for and at least the historians and scholars that I know and and curators and rank and file teachers are continuing to do that I think what happens is in this discussion you most of the focus is placed on you know

black history advocates as purposely or having some kind of individual will to ghettoize the history by teaching them that way by reinforcing distinctions without recognizing how there is this very real resistance that they face when it comes to the integration of African-American and Aphrodite spork history into the so-called mainstream as the other. You know it's been already made very clear. This question is yeah Is this a catch 22 situation otherwise if you don't understand what the history is why should we want to appreciate having it integrated for lack of a better expression into American history. Right I think you're right. Yeah I think you're I think you're very very right I mean and in today's public discourse with there being a black president you see that the range of ways in which black history is bandied about to make either critiques or defenses of the president or having a black president. We need black history now more than ever to deal with some of the ways in which is being falsely utilized to make claims about you know contemporary debates and issues that

is really dangerous. And in my estimation it's it's only from a position of strength that comes with having some kind of power base like black history organizations affiliated with it that we can actually offer some kind of substantial challenges to the misuse of the Black history is currently going on in contemporary debates. Rochelle Riley are we too invested some. Is it a generational issue whether some of us are invested in this and this is a way this history has been presented and we can't move beyond it. There is a great irony not only are some of us of a certain age to it but younger children are not invested at all. OK I'm going to I'm going to make you hold that point till we come back right after a break. I'm Kelly Crossley and we're talking about the relevance of black history in the Age of Obama is a time to integrate the narrative of African-American history into American history or is a simplistic and even dangerous to not distinguish the rich history of African-Americans. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1

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made possible through individual support. Thank you. I'm Kelly Crossley and you're listening to the Kelly Crossley Show. We're discussing Black History Month and asking the question in the 21st century in the Age of Obama and Oprah is it past its prime. Joining us to talk through this notion is Beverly Morgan Welch devourer and Baldwin and Rochelle Riley. Beverly Morgan Morgan Welch is the executive director of Boston's Museum of African-American history to Varian Baldwin is the Paul eraser distinguished professor of American studies at Trinity College and Rochelle Riley is a metro columnist for The Detroit Free Press to join the conversation give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. And Rochelle I had to cut you off before break but I did want you to finish your thought about whether or not. People in a store of a certain generation are invested in the way Black History Month is presented and in Black History Month as a concept.

Well what we're getting is this gap between those who are invested and who understand it and a generation of young people who don't understand it which is why it really needs to be required and not optional and a prerequisite and not something that's recommended when Black History Month is used as a crutch or get out of jail free card for mainstream historians to ignore the richness of a vital part of American history than its continuous can continue and can be dangerous. There's a difference in celebration and commemoration on the one hand and required knowledge on the other. And there are aspects of American history that deal with this black residents for 400 years that should be required knowledge. So I think that we were doing a disservice to all young people when we try to segregate what they know. I mean what is it. Again I think I already said what is the point of young black boys and girls knowing they're descended from kings and queens and the contributions of their ancestors and nobody else knows it or appreciates it or cares about it.

Well there's someone who has recently made a comment about how firmly he was opposed to Black History Month in a 2005 episode of 60 Minutes Mike Wallace asked Morgan freedom for Morgan Freeman for his take on Black History Month and here's what he said. Black History Month you find ridiculous. You're going to relegate my history to a month. Oh come on what do you do with us. Which Martha's wife is from. Noel. Welcome on film. Well. I'm Jewish. OK with mostly Jewish History Month. There isn't one. Oh oh. Why don't you want one. No no no I don't I don't either. I don't want to Black History Month. Black history is American history. How are we going to get rid of racism and stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man. Yeah. And when I ask

you to stop calling me. A black man. I know you as Mike Wallace you know me as well and family when I say I want to know this white guy named Mike Wallace. You know I'm saying the Vireo and BALDWIN What do you how do you respond to that. I totally agree that black African American history should be incorporated into mainstream 365 days a year. The way I teach it that's the way I live it. But at the same time I think it's naive to you know it's a it's interesting that when asked some follow up questions Mr. Freeman argue that the way to deal with racism is to not talk about it and I think it's very interesting and I think that's very unrealistic. I think that the way you engage and deal with the structural inequalities of racism and other kinds of isms is to talk about them is to deal with them. And this comes back to a question of Black History Month. Of course we don't want to get a wise our history into one month but at the same time let's be honest.

We've been fighting to integrate this history into mainstream history for decades and we need to have again as I've been saying all along a position of strength from which to advocate if our history is left to the whims of mainstream historians and curriculum developers it still won't get taught. And so this is the struggle of it as I as a teacher and and as just a citizen face is that OK so then because black history is not being affective in mainstream documented history. So then we abandon it. So then what. Do not leave it to the hands of others to integrate history into the into the mainstream curriculum. I don't see that as being realistic. Well you may be right and I have to say that I believe that Morgan Freeman himself is conflicted about it because if we look at the roles that he accepts you know as an actor to play I mean his latest one is a is about Nelson Mandela. I mean he's all about the business of representing black history on screen and he's gone out of his way to fund some of that from his own resources and to put his influence out there so I would argue that he's a little bit

conflicted about it as well but I take his point about why he wants to see it spread across the year. You know as we're having this conversation I'm I'm wondering if listeners are thinking well when I say black history what are they talking about I know Rosa Parks I know Martin Luther King. I mean OK are we done now. And I found it interesting a couple of paragraphs from a column written by Cynthia Tucker who is at the Atlanta Journal Constitution and actually this was in the middle of a column that she was writing saying that Black History Month trivializes black history but yet here is this. There is no American history without black history. We were here from the beginning in 16 19 dark skinned men and women kidnapped from Africa arrived in Jamestown established in 16 0 7 as the first permanent English settlement in North America according to Tim author of The Birth of black America the first African Americans and the pursuit of freedom at Jamestown. Parents captured a Spanish slave ship carrying men and women from what is now Angola. They sold about three dozen of them to Jamestown colonists during the next few decades some of those men and women

purchased their freedom a few perches their own farms. Since then black folks have been part and parcel of this country its culture its history its wars its science its art its politics. Among those felled in the Boston Massacre that helped ignite the American Revolution was well you know this for Black History Month don't you. Crispus Attucks who was black. What do you think. Beverly MORGAN Well part of the reality here is that the students tell us that they are tired of hearing the same conversations about be it Sojourner Truth Rosa Parks Harriet Tubman or with whomever else because teachers do not necessarily know the history as well they have been taught it so they get the same old warmed over the same five stories right. And they are sick to death of it as a matter of fact. It's embarrassing it's ridiculous. And as a result it's extremely important that we continue to do the research and that we share it more broadly with

teachers. I have to I have to I want you to tell people our listeners what you do at the museum in terms of having a living experience for some students the Underground Railroad overnight. Please explain that. That's what we're talking about in terms of reframing right. We've done research on the historic sites on Beacon Hill and found a number of people taking people in who were recently self emancipated from slavery and southern states. And those sites is underground railroad sites are a part of an evening where children come to the museum they meet their A and important person from history. Often Ellen craft who herself escapes slavery pretending to be a white man with her husband. She was black and at any rate they meet her there because she was there. We're not importing someone to make anything up you know. We're not making something right. We're going around to the houses showing the children who live there where

they came from where they self emancipated are liberated from trying to change the language. And those children spend the night they do a scavenger hunt. And then Art in other projects to really kind of. Engage in in the history and and they have spend they spend some time in a space that really replicates how small how tiny how cramped how scary it was to be trying to go north to freedom as a slave and hiding right. And the community and how they supported people with education with money and and a place to live clothing all those kinds of things. Well that's living history. Exactly so when they walk away I love this we tried this out for the first time 10 years ago and we then asked children so how did you feel about it. And the fifth grader said it was. I was transformed it was transformative I don't know what that means but I know I was changed. And that's when you say he

said. I just didn't know. I mean that when they start saying I just didn't know and that sense of swelling pride and they start to put names to this amorphous group of slaves or fugitives of all things. When we start to tell them these people were not fugitives they were kidnapped. They they they importantly courageously and with conviction and out plan a skate or bought their freedom and so on. That changes everything for children of all colors and they are all able to articulate very differently. Almost immediately but it's something that has to be followed up with all kinds of other information about. African-American History and I say an especially as it relates to Mexican. It's helping people who are enslaved or Native Americans or interactions in brown

or white people you know or people from Boston going to Haiti to help put in place an education system at the beginning of the 19th century. It's those kinds of things that are extremely important to beginning to understand the politics what was going on and the interrelationships between black people in this country and other people of color and around the world. Now Rochelle I understand that because you've complained that Black History Month is not doing what it should be doing that you started an effort on your own to try to reframe Beverly's doing living history with what are you doing explain your one America one history project. Thank you so much for that and I want everybody to know that I'm coming. Look at what she's doing in that fabulous one America when history is the effort to do exactly what the educator on our panel here said is not possible. And that's to integrate all of the different black history that that is. Do you know type quizzes of just people

and some of the richer deeper understanding of what this people has meant globally to this country and to get it in textbooks right now we're just studying current textbooks which in some cases are appalling and heartbreaking and also looking at some of the textbooks that people have written in attempts to try and do this before. And I want to say I'm a little heartbroken that there are people who think that this can't be done that it's naive to even try because it took two hundred fifty six years for African-Americans to be treated as people in this country and then another one hundred six years to get the right to vote. And we've only been trying to make people understand who we are for eight decades I don't think it's time to give up. Well I may have said that I'm messing give it up but I do know that there are people who have had made certain attempts and been thwarted and that doesn't mean give it up you can still go forward. I can say personally when I was in high school I would bring in information I was very interested in black history because it was all new and exciting to me and would bring it into my American History class where it was met with a mix of response. You can imagine I was one black student in that

class so you can imagine that. I don't tell you a quick story my dear friend of mine who's Lebanese went to pick my daughter up when she was 5 years old and in kindergarten and she called me literally in tears and said Oh my God something has happened that I can't deal with and I said I don't understand. She said Your daughter is really mad that the brown people didn't get paid and they've been talking about it and I don't know what to tell her I said bring my child into the newsroom completely. And of course that helped remind me that I was my daughter's greatest teacher and I had to fill in some of those things. But the idea that that it's not taught that it's not understood by all children so when they become adults there's a greater understanding of what needs to happen to fight poverty and to fight racism. People don't know they can't teach what they don't know and I don't understand what they don't know. Marian you know I think I'm the educator she's referring to is not Alice Sorry Ike. I actually I think that's a to used to used to appeal to history historical record that's historically inaccurate. I did not say that at all that it's not possible.

What I said and if I'm correct here is that I would respond to Morgan Freeman's comment that the way to do to eradicate racism is not to not talk about it right. OK that's what I said in terms of the perforation of history after making history out throughout three hundred five days a year. We are in agreement about that. What I'm saying is that I would like to do that from a position of strength and not rely on anyone just anyone to tell my story and I think that's also a misnomer to argue that black history is not being mainstreamed because if you look at public debates today in discourse particularly around Haiti black history is being mainstream. But the problem with the mainstreaming is that we're not there to have a say in telling that story. And so then when you have someone like a Pat Robertson saying that Haiti is in the condition that it's and because of a pact with the devil without talking about the kind of universal retribution that Haiti faced for having the arrogance to be an

independent black Republican 3:42 this is what I'm saying that we need a position of strength from which to engage such historical misnomers and accuracy. And that's what I'm saying. Now I think we have very little agreement about the proliferation of his black history throughout the Americas and throughout the mainstream. But I'm saying Well from what position who should who should have a say in how and what are the consequences of not having a voice in the conversation so we are we are together we're here on this point. OK. There's no need there's no need to misrepresent my position to create a false distinction we are in agreement on that point. OK Beverly want to get into this. Beverly go ahead. I think that it's extremely important that the textbooks that I've seen that have any African-American history in them are Native American history. I have a daughter who's 17 now and about to go off to college but she hid her history books every year and stead of allowing me to see them right away so that she could.

They're good look at them and calm down before I had to talk to the teacher about how distorted and insane and approach most of them had. So I very much feel I mean as far as I'm concerned with the Internet and with the responsibility of all parents African-American parents certainly but all parents it is extremely important that before any child gets to school they are not told about slavery by somebody else. And it and it is one of those things that sneaks up on us because who wants to sit around and talk about it. It's very difficult I mean we do have parents who will say What do you say. How do you how do you talk about this horrific embarrassing you know tear jerking moment. So it's something that we have to wrestle with. I think for an A for our own children before they get to school and have

somebody simply say open the textbook and they get this horrifically distorted picture of of slavery and freedom. Well that's a great point to leave it at. We've been talking about the relevance of Black History Month with Beverly Morgan Welsh devouring and Baldwin and Rochelle Riley. We're going out on the black national anthem which is sung by the Boston Symphony. Very important song during Black History Month and 365 days a year. Beverly Morgan Welch is executive director of the Museum of Boston's Museum of African-American history of are involved one is The Paul Reiser distinguished professor of American studies at Trinity College and Rochelle Riley is the metro columnist for The Detroit Free Press. Thank you all for joining us. Coming up next it's the hidden brain a look at the power of our unconscious mind. The science writer Shankar Vedantam. We'll be back after this break. Stay with us. The.

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Listening to the news. Eighty nine point seven. WGBH here the power of public support. This is eighty nine point seven dollars. Boston's NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with FRESH AIR and the Emily Rooney show. The new eighty nine point seven. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Shankar Vedantam is a science writer for The Washington Post. His latest book is The Hidden Brain how our unconscious minds elect presidents control markets wage wars and save our lives. In his book he explores brain functions emotional responses and cognitive processes that happen outside of our conscious awareness but have a decisive effect on how we behave. Shankar thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me Kelly. OK so the unconscious mind the hidden brain. Briefly what does that

mean exactly. The Hidden Brain is a metaphor that I use Cally to describe a host of unconscious processes that happen when our heads every day and they affect everything from how we form romantic relationships to our financial decisions to our judgments about other people and prejudice to the way we behave in disasters to the way we make moral judgments. Now what I thought was interesting you wrote that autonomy is a myth knowledge and rational interaction is not responsible for our choices that we we somehow are now responsible and that that sort of goes against the grain of what we think we think we are consciously directing our choices and decisions and yet the conscious mind not the hidden one makes very few or directs very few of our decisions as you point out. You know one of the chapters in my book is called The Myth of autonomy and it perhaps overstated the case a little bit I'm not suggesting that autonomy is completely a myth but I am suggesting that we place far more store by autonomy than it deserves. Many more actions in our lives than

we imagine are handled by the unconscious mind and are influenced by the unconscious mind. And even though they feel conscious and autonomous and intentional in reality they are not one of the analogies I've used is to think of the conscious mind as the pilot of the plane and the hidden brain is the autopilot function on a plane. There's nothing wrong with having an autopilot function except when you turn over control to the autopilot as you're flying through a storm. Exactly. Now I'm very fascinated about how you were. Of course you write about science all the time we have been writing about it and you've been writing about some of these things. But what drew me what I thought was interesting was about your interaction with your 3 year old daughter and how this sort of manifested just what you write about in the book. Can you share that with us. I'd be delighted to in fact I think this fits perfectly into the previous conversation we were having about how to have conversations with kids and whether to have conversations with kids about things. My daughter who is now for about a year ago right around the time she turned three I was writing the chapter in my book that eventually became the chapter about the biases of very small children. And

researchers show that by around age three children are already categorizing the world by race and often forming racial impressions of people from different groups. My daughter and I would play this game called Doctor daughter a doctor a medical kit and she would treat all her stuffed animals. And she initially insisted that I play doctor and she play nurse. And after a couple of days I suggested that we switch roles so she could play doctor and I could play nurse and she agreed to be the doctor but she wouldn't allow me to be the nurse. And this went on for a couple of weeks until eventually I asked her well why is it that I can be the nurse and she said you know I have never read a story book where a man was a nurse. And it occurred to me that I had read her many many stories involving doctors and kids and you know vets and so on and in none of those stories was a nurse ever a man and I had never thought to mention it I hadn't even noticed it because it fit with my own preconceptions about who nurses were. But my daughter was picking up something at an unconscious level separate from what I was talking to her about. And that's the thesis of my book that's separate from

everything that we learn or that we teach our children at a conscious level. Our minds are picking up things at an unconscious level that have profound effects on our behavior. And it's so strong she didn't even think to ask you Daddy why is it there all the ladies are nurses and the men are doctors she just assumed that's that's what's happening. That's right in fact much in much of our lives if we actually were to notice everything that we notice unconsciously and draw attention to it we would find ourselves paralyzed because we're noticing hundreds of things every day and this happens from the time we are born not just from the time we turn 20 or 21. Now if my daughter had been able to articulate that she was making an assumption it would be an assumption that's fairly easy to challenge and I would have provided her evidence to show that the that her assumption was wrong. But in much of our lives we don't even realize that we are working on assumptions. We assume that we are working on well-thought out hypotheses because it feels conscious even though the process actually is unconscious. Now you have some examples from the recent elections that I thought was fascinating so could you share that with her.

Sure there's been a lot of research conducted on the 2008 presidential election in fact I think it brought together was a great case study for a whole number of different kinds of unconscious biases. There were several women for example who were in the presidential race and there were many judgments I think made about both Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin that I think had something to do with sexism. John McCain was a fairly elderly person to be running for president and I think there were people who were making judgments about his competence to be in office based on how old he was. And of course Barack Obama was a black man and many people explicitly said that they wouldn't want for a black man and many others I believe were unconsciously influenced by the fact that he was black. There were researchers who conducted Oh they denied it now many people denied it and in various reports as you know. Well yes in fact that's the point that I'm trying to make in the book that we draw attention to the people who will explicitly say they will not vote for a black man and we ignore the people who basically say they don't pay any attention to race they do what Morgan Freeman says we all should be doing. Well let's not pay any attention to race I don't even notice that you're a black woman sitting in front of me right. In

reality of course we are our hidden brains are unable not to notice these things are unable not to take this into account in our judgment and decision making. And I argue that this is really where it becomes insidious because not only is the fact of racism hidden from the observer it's hidden from the person who is racist himself or herself. One of the interesting things that researchers I think found in the 2008 campaign is that the Obama campaign itself helped to dismantle the issue of race in very skillful ways and I don't know whether they did it consciously or unconsciously but unlike many previous black politicians Obama really took on the issue of race head on. He really sort of came out and said look there are thousands of people who said they will not vote for a black man that's racist and it's wrong. He exam for the race speech that's the only time there was blatant you know to some extent but he never cried foul he never sort of said I'm the victim poor me. Rather he painted a picture that was actually quite different he said. We have come to transcend race Americans are a better people than that. You know and he

constantly called people to their better angels rather than making them feel defensive about their views. And one of the things that I think the researchers found in the course of the 2008 election is that it is often not the best strategy to take on unconscious biases head on because if somebody has a bias that they're not aware off and you go up to them and tell them I think you're behaving in a racist manner they're going to be defensive because when they look in their hearts they don't feel any bias because it's unconscious. And I think one of the things the Obama campaign did was by sidestepping the issue of race calling people to their better angels. He was able to diffuse the subject of race much more effectively than politicians who say let's put race explicitly on the paper on the table and call people out on it. Now I want to make it clear to people who are listening thinking OK so this book is all about but it's bias bias you actually are looking at unconscious decision making or not decision making just unconscious reaction in so many different ways. The 9/11 example is very powerful. Explain that because you talked about not only that and most recently Haiti how people respond.

Sure in fact I think one of the things I'm trying to show in the book is that prejudice is actually a special case of what's actually a much larger phenomenon in the mind. In the chapter that I devote to the unconscious biases that affect people in disasters I describe what happened on the 88 and 89 floor of the World Trade Center on the morning of 9/11. A financial trading firm was spread over these two floors and after the towers fell in the rubble had cleared. It turned out that nearly everyone who was on the 88 floor had escaped the building and survived. Nearly everyone on the 89 floor had stayed behind at their desks and perished. And the chapter explores the biases that act on people again without their awareness in disaster settings. And it shows how powerfully people are influenced by the groups they are they are in and in some ways it's groups that make the decisive decisions in times of emergency and crisis and not individuals. So what happened on the floor vs. the floor. Well in both floors What I argue is the same phenomenon essentially unfolded I'm not really arguing that the hidden brain helped save the lives of everyone on the

eighth floor what I'm saying is that it prompted everyone on one floor to make one decision and everyone on the other floor to make the opposite decision which was just what the 88 floor people essentially decided to evacuate and almost everyone evacuated within a couple of minutes of the first plane hitting the north tower I think. And you know there was a 16 minute window between the plane the plane hitting the North Tower and the plane hitting the south tower. And anyone who didn't exit the upper floors of the south tower in that 16 minute window perished because a second plane essentially cut off all exits for people on the upper floors. The people on the ninth floor however many of them stayed behind at their desks and the effect essentially of their comrades around them staying behind at their desks played a very powerful role in keeping people behind at their desk so even though people felt they were making autonomous decisions in reality if you look at the data the decisions were really being made as a whole by groups and not by individuals acting alone. Now is that what used to be called mob rule except it's not a mob in that case it's like groupthink is is that can you apply that here is it totally different.

Well I think there are there are some elements of connection. I think groupthink and her behavior have been given bad names and we tend to think and we tend to imagine that the people who are smart and clever are not influenced by the groups around them. I think what the research that's been conducted over the last 10 or 15 years shows is that we are all powerful influenced by the groups around us and that this is fundamentally a good thing. I describe in one of the tragedies. Yes it's OK. I describe in one of the chapters what happens when people are truly unable to process what the people around them my doing when they completely cut off from the influence of those around them and I show that this leads to actual profound disability in everyday functioning. So we are all social animals and in some ways our connections to one another is what makes us human it's what makes some of the best things of what makes us human is the fact that we are tied to one another. All that disasters do is it amplifies this effect on the horse the disaster or the connection that I have to you in normal life is amplified 10 times or 100 times. And so I'm very closely tied to your actions and your closely tied to

mine. My mother used to say Think for yourself. So I guess that means I'm not really doing that at any given point. I think it's I think it's a worthwhile aspiration to say Think for yourself but I mean the idea that we could truly be cut off from other people is actually a profoundly disturbing idea it's not an aspiration that I think is really worthy. Now here's what I want to know. So you wrote the book you've done the science. You know how our hidden brain works you know how your hidden brain works yes. So how does that impact your every day moving around in the world because aren't you every moment saying OK now did I make that decision. You know what's going on. Well what I try and do with my own life I think is I've tried to apply the research to my own life in the sense that I think when I come to conclusions about things about political topics about I like this president or I dislike that President there's a voice in the back of my head that now says yes you feel you may have thought about this really carefully but consider the possibility that it's actually your unconscious mind that did the thinking for you. And I think what it's helped me to do I

think is to be a little bit more humble about my views and admit the possibility that in everyday life it might not be me but it might be my hidden brain that's really made the decisions and in some ways I think this allows people to communicate better with each other to look past each other and sort of you know in some way stop stereotyping each other because they say This person says everything that I disagree with but hold on a second let me actually listen to them and see if they have something worthwhile to say. So how do you other than just listening to the other viewpoint. I mean in any of these given situations that you articulate and there are many you know reframe how you respond. I mean if with this newfound knowledge. So there are a variety of things so for example with the question of disasters I think when I finish reading and understanding the research into disasters it changed the way I behave when a fire alarm goes off in my workplace before I read this research you know the fire alarm would go go off and I would look at the guy sitting in the cubicle next to me and say you know do you think we should get up or do you think it's a false alarm. Now obviously the person in the cubicle next to me has no better information than I

do. Right but I'm really trying to find consensus I want to believe that the people around me know something that I don't. Even though I know at a conscious level that they know absolutely nothing more. So when the fire alarm goes off now I get up and I go OK I think you're thinking for yourself as my mother used to say. Well I would say that I'm aware of the bias that groups exercised over us and I'm trying to I'm trying to respond to it. What would you what. Because the book is fascinating and by the way if people are thinking about you I'm sure you're listening to him and realize he's not a geek not a geeky guy if you can you can read the book and really appreciate all that it has to offer in terms of all these circumstances as you've described them. So now that we understand what is going on why why what do you want people to take away from the book more than just hey this is really interesting and look like. People generally respond well I should actually start by saying there's going to be reading at the Harvard bookstore tonight at 7:00 p.m. So if people want to come in here a little bit more they'd be welcome to do that. But in terms of your question Kelly I think the first step in being able to

deal with the hidden brain is recognize that it exists. It exists when it comes to moral judgment that exists when it comes to children it exists when it comes to our romantic relationships. The first step is INSIGHT. Now inside doesn't take you all the way understanding that we have a hidden brain doesn't mean that we automatically do away with the hidden brain but it's the first and very important step. There are a variety of psychological tests that have been developed over the last 10 years 15 years that help people understand what's happening in their unconscious minds and so ahead of time if you know that you're in a situation where you're going to be evaluating somebody for a job and you're aware of certain biases that affect you in these situations knowing about that bias beforehand can help you compensate for that bias. So when you're reading an application perhaps you will sort of read that application differently perhaps you will ask that applications not have the photographs of applicants on them because you know that you might be influenced by the photograph of the applicant. And once you are aware of the bias there's something that we can do about it so long as we think about ourselves as autonomous intentional creatures. We will say I think

I'm a perfectly fair judge. I have no problem I can look at a photograph and not be influenced by it. I can look at a black person and not even notice that he's black. And then we end up deluding ourselves. Now this doesn't allow us by accepting that there is a hidden brain to say well I don't really have any moral responsibility because I have to because you know that wasn't me that was my brain. Absolutely not internet I would argue that my book is a call to greater personal responsibility not less. It is true that we cannot always control what's in our hidden brain we can't always control these unconscious associations but we are not judged by what's in our hidden brain we are judged by our actions. We are judged by what we do what we say how we act. So if you're flying the plane and you turn over controls of the plane to the autopilot function as you're flying through a storm you can say once the plane has crashed it's the autopilot function that crashed the plane. You chose to give the autopilot function control of the plane when you know that you're in a situation where you're dealing with difficult issues or you're dealing with issues where you have unconscious biases. The obligation is up to you the responsibility is up to you to take back the controls.

Let me conclude how we began. How now do you interact with your daughter and how. Do you observe her interactions and you know about that hidden brain one thing. I think one of the things that I try and do is when I look at when I look at story books now I would I look at when I walk the walk on the street with her I try and see things. I try and see things fresh it's not always possible to do but I try and see things fresh and I try and say well why did the author of the storybook make the choice to make the Norse a woman. Is that something that was inevitable it's not a choice that was made why do you think she made that choice. And the issue so much is in my persuading my daughter about my views as much as just putting the issue on the table in an explicit matter. There is much more to read in this fabulous book. Shankar Vedantam thank you for joining us and you can hear him tonight at 7 p.m. at the Harvard bookstore in Cambridge. Thanks to all of our guests. You can keep on top of the Kelly Crossley Show by visiting our website WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show. Today's program was engineer by Jane pic and produced by Chelsea murders. Our

production assistant is an a white knuckle beat. We got special help today from Sidney Lundberg. We're a production of WGBH radio Boston's NPR station for news and culture.