WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. If you type the words Girlfight into YouTube what you find could surprise you. We're not talking about classic cat bites the stuff of hair pulling and shin kicking. We're talking brass knuckles knock down drag out combat. Girls and gauging in bloody battles as bystanders fail to intervene. It's a phenomenon that's hit close to home when a brawl videotaped in low mass went viral. Is this an indication that violence among girls is on the rise. Or is this simply Internet entertainment gone extreme. And what does this say about us if we can no longer distinguish shock value from shocking violence. We'll examine the forces behind this emerging behavior. We top off the hour with Reverend Jim Wallis in his new book explores how the economic crisis could change us for the better. Up next from redefining violence to Rediscovering Values. First the news. From NPR News in Washington one corps of a Coleman President Obama is expected to vigorously defend his plan to

overhaul the nation's health care system during a speech later this hour. A White House spokesman says he'll talk about why Americans so badly need these changes. Republicans warn they want to scrap all health care overhaul plans and start again. And Democrats will lose seats in this year's elections if they persist with their current ideas. President Obama says regardless of how it plays politically lawmakers must act. New numbers today from two private groups show fewer jobs were lost in the U.S. last month. NPR's Yuki Noguchi reports the job loss numbers were less than anticipated and far less than the January losses payroll firm Automatic Data Processing said last month private employers cut 20000 jobs. A separate report by outplacement firm Challenger Gray and Christmas said Job losses are now at their lowest level since mid 2006. Taken together the new data seem to indicate that the nation's employment picture could be starting to turn a corner. These upbeat signals come ahead of the government's monthly report on unemployment expected on Friday.

But administration officials and analysts have warned that Friday's report is likely to show a much weaker jobs picture partly because of the two big east coast blizzards that disrupted business last month. You can go Gucci NPR News Washington. New York Governor David Paterson is meeting with top advisers today. He's fighting back against calls for him to resign over a witness tampering scandal. NPR's Robert Smith reports. Governor David Paterson has spent the last couple of days holed up in the governor's mansion making legislative leaders come to him. The governor only spoke briefly to reporters to say that he hasn't been accused of anything. Paterson is facing an investigation over allegations that he pressured a woman who was pursuing domestic violence charges against one of his top aides. Already the state's major newspapers and many Democratic politicians are calling on him to resign. Even the woman he appointed to the Senate Gillibrand distanced herself from him. If the allegations of abuse of power are true and the governor will be unable to govern and he will have to step down although not many people have been publicly supporting the governor the head of New York's Democratic Party

says that he talked to Paterson and there is another side to the story. Robert Smith NPR News New York. The Federal Aviation Administration is criticizing news that a child was apparently allowed to direct air traffic last month at New York's JFK Airport. That's very one sided. When the FAA says this is not acceptable the union for air traffic controllers agrees that recording is from last month when the child appears to be under an adult supervision. The FAA says the employees involved have been pulled off the job during the investigation. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrials are up 28 points at ten thousand four hundred thirty four. The Nasdaq is up three points it's currently at twenty to eighty four. You're listening to NPR News. Offi retailer Starbucks is in the middle of a debate over gun control. We have more from Liz Jones of station KUOW in Seattle. In a recent statement Starbucks asked both gun enthusiasts and gun control advocates to

keep the company out of this divisive issue. But it seems to be too late. Groups of gun owners have begun walking into Starbucks stores with their guns visible as a way to test state laws about openly carrying weapons in public places. Starbucks says it is sticking to its policy of letting people carry guns where it's legal. Paul Helmke he is president of the Brady Campaign which favors tighter gun restrictions by saying that they're following state local law Starbucks is ducking. That the question they have the right to decide who comes into their stores are not gun advocates of states similar open carry displays and other national chains including the California Pizza Kitchen and Pete's Coffee home he says both those chains responded with bans against people openly carrying guns in their stores. For NPR News I'm Liz Jones in Seattle. New York Congressman Charles Rangle is temporarily giving up his chairmanship of the House Ways and Means Committee. The Democrat is accused of breaking congressional ethics rules. Rendell says he doesn't want his colleagues to have to defend him while the committee finishes its

investigation. They're examining his trips income and requests for donations to a university center to be named for him. Gay and lesbian couples are applying for marriage licenses in Washington D.C. The U.S. Supreme Court declined to intervene in the matter yesterday. Couples began lining up today for paperwork. There is a waiting period of three business days before marriages can be performed. The first weddings between same sex couples won't come until next week. I'm CORBA Coleman NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation working to enhance public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show to lend your voice to the conversation give us a call. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can also

e-mail us at Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot org. Last month videos of bloody fights between girls and Lowell Mass went viral. Those films joined a growing number of clips cycling through cyberspace that explicitly show girls beating up on each other. We'll take a look at what this emergence of violent behavior says about girls today. But first we're going to get a primmer on the outburst of violence happening here at home. Aaron Smith is a reporter for The Lowell Sun. She's been covering the violent videos that came out of Lowell. Aaron Smith welcome. Hi Kelly how are you. Fine. Now one of these fights happened right across the street from your paper. Right. That's correct. Yeah actually one of our reporters saw the fight and actually called police and they didn't arrive in time to where the kids had left but after talking for an I-Reporter out there just it was breaking up and you know it. There are three videos posted about this fighting and in Lowell with girls fighting. Can you describe what anybody would see on those videos. I mean I do want to make it clear that it's

not just sort of gentle slapping if you will. Right when one takes place. And you can see it. There's snow on the ground. Clearly winter girls two girls in the hooded jacket and one just starts beating the other to the ground by punching her on the sidewalk. In that incident there was a 15 year old all Whang middle school girl was arrested and faces charges and that's the About the only arrest heard of thus far with the video. Some people have been expelled though right. Right there. We've heard from school officials that there was one fight downtown in front of the library you could clearly see that the vault number of girls in ROTC uniform and those girls have since been asked to leave ROTC according to school officials. Now to your knowledge what are they fighting about. Well it's I guess it's all different thing. What we're hearing from the high school principal is that some of these fights go back to you know when the girls were in third grade

you know or younger and these ongoing dispute over boys or gossip. And so in some cases the school officials are telling us that the mothers are also sort of fanning the flames of these rivalries not gang related. There are more of I guess you know the movie mean. Girls are being OK so it's not gang related that we're hearing from police and school officials. Thus far I don't know you know what could be happening you know in the future. But what we're hearing is that you know for Boys a lot of rage is going out or going into the fight. Now the ones that go back to third grade is that because the community of Lowell is small enough for people to have kept up with each other and this for so long and and have access to the other person that they've had a grudge against for so long I don't think that in all the cases that these fights go back so long but you know what we're hearing from social workers who work with these kids the high school is that sometimes the kids especially the girls have a hard time distinguishing what their friend's problem and what's their problem. If

one of the girls has a problem with another girl her friend may get involved and have a problem with that girl's well and have a hard time to distinguishing you know between those things and then the other. Fact is I guess some of the kids feel like they can't back down from the fight. They have to go through with them because everybody knows about them and they're amplified through Facebook and MySpace and online networking site. Now let's talk about that the posting on YouTube that I mean I've seen one of them and one of the fights and it looks a little staged meaning that people came to the event to fight. I mean they knew they were going to they were going to tape it when they got there. Well that's what we're hearing from school officials is that these kids you know you obviously have a more difficult time fighting in school because you're under the provision of school officials security guards and teachers and that they're planning to meet after work after school and what we're hearing from the social workers and some of the counselors who work with the kids and try to you know mediate and stop the violence is that they're coming more prepared for the fight

they have in the past you know point their hair back and you know with with wearing big rings on their fingers to pack more. Punch are you expecting you hearing from your law enforced enforcement officials and social workers that this kind of posting of the videos and actually the activity itself is going to continue. Well we at the low sun we ask the the local police here what the rate was for juvenile arrests for the females in this city and we found that between 2006 and 2008 Well police are telling us the rate of girls being arrested increased by 23 percent and one third of those arrests were for violent crimes. So apparently it has been on the rise. We're not sure the new numbers haven't come out from last year yet but it's been on the rise and we're hearing also from the Middlesex district attorney Jerry Leoni that it's something that they're sitting on. State now I read that one expert at least saying you know that the girls don't have a creative outlet that some of this is because they don't have a creative outlet and some have

pointed to the fact that peer mediation services were cut funding for that was cut. Is anybody else making that link. Well certainly the high school principal a bill from heiresses he told The Sun that that they've lost you know some of their peer mediation and some of their social workers some of you know other social service workers. And so sometimes when girls are referred or you know students are referred for needing services or help you know for mediation the workers if they're so short staffed aren't able to meet with them for several days which can cause fights. Right. Well Aaron Smith of the Lowell Sun thank you so much for joining us. Thank you Kelly. Where now joined by Deborah Weaver Linn Michael Brown and media Chesney Lind Deborah Weaver is founder and director of girls leap Lynn Michael Brown is a professor of education at Colby College and media Chesney Lind is a professor of women's studies at the University of Hawaii. Listeners we also want to hear from you. Have you seen or

experienced this kind of violence in your neighborhood. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Or e-mail us at Cal across the show at WGBH dot org. Deborah Weaver Lynn Michael Brown and media Chesney Lynn. Welcome. Thank you thank you. Now I have to say that I wanted to I've been wanting to do this story since I saw that video posted about the local girls fighting it was so shocking to me. And I was asked to comment on it and I really didn't know what to think I assumed it was a girl gangs and then that was exacerbated when I saw the video that came out of Seattle which was a group of girls kicking a girl unconscience. To the point of unconscious while some security guards sat around and looked at her this was inside the commuter commuter rail station in Seattle and the story that came out nationally was really focused on the lack of response by the by the authorities as opposed to the activity of the girl kicking this young woman to a state of unconsciousness.

And I just thought what is going on so Deborah Weaver you are founder and director of girls leap start us off and please put this in context why is this happening. Well we've been working with girls in Boston since 1907 and about eight years ago rather than focusing exclusively on helping girls prevent themselves from being victims we began to see that girl on girl violence was growing and was increasing a great deal and that girls needed to be taught specific skills to help them learn to regulate their own anger to resolve conflicts without fighting and to build a sense of how to develop a network of advocates that they could call on to help them navigate these complex problems around the country. This girl on girl violence has been growing girls in the juvenile justice system are going way up with a third of the girls that are arrested or arrested for violent crimes. And we're seeing this in Boston not dissimilar from LOL in in that girls are texting each other from school

meeting at locations that are not school locations and then conducting fights in those places. Most recently there was a staged if you call it that fight in Forest Hills which is a station that many kids pass through in the Boston Public School System. And I guess the question is the posting of the videos. That seems to add another measure of intensity. Why are you saying that the post was. What part of that is important to this kind of violence. Well I think that we're seeing all kinds of violence exacerbated by the ability of that girls have to access social media of all kinds and this includes I think not only videotaping and posting but also the cyber bullying that's going on and that has been so corrosive because it's able to travel so quickly. And without any kind of social ramifications or any inhibitors so girls are

able to sort of do and say things that they probably wouldn't have the courage to do or say in person. And then there circulating those things those images as well they say the same thing with with girls posting what may be an innocuous to them image of themselves on line maybe not appropriately dressed. And then that image itself gets circulated right all around. And I think that we're not teaching girls enough about what is appropriate in terms of self disclosure how important it is to think about whether or not you really can trust the people that you're communicating with and what you're communicating about to begin with it's you know it's so easy to click that button and send things right. The whole millennial generation though they don't think they think this is all part of you know why be private about anything right. I'm wondering we've heard from in Lowell that these incidences went up 23 percent or so they believe but yet you're

saying violence is going down among boys certainly among girls. This kind of violence is really going down. Right. I think well let's back up for a second and just realize that girls have always been more violent than our stereotype. And by the way HAPPY GIRLS DAY everybody. This is my ministry here and I love it. But when we talk about girls I think one of the things we have are these stereotypical notions of passive any and tendency and niceness and sweetness. And so I think when we see these images there is that sort of shock. But I've been studying female delinquency for decades and I've known for years that between a third and a quarter it's actually closer to a quarter now than it used to be it used to be about a third of girls would report that girls in this age group that we're talking about had been at at least one physical fight in the last year so that the violence has always been there.

What has happened is that we're paying more attention to it. And of course the fact that you can now videotape it also makes it amplifies the impact of the phenomenon. I don't know to. Listening in the conversations that we've had so far number one these are staged events. Number two there are a lot of other people in the picture there are adults in the picture there are boys in the picture. Point they're the subject of a lot of these fights so I think if we if we back up and we talk a little bit about the dynamics here the context that produced the world's violence I think then we're on the way to understanding what's going on. You know what's going on anyway. You know I think Deborah made some very good comments about the kind of resource that we need to give girls that you know we probably always needed to give moral. OK now you know we know we have a problem. We're going to continue this conversation and get Michael Brown into it when we come back we're talking about girls acting out from cyber bullying to city street brawls. If you're a teacher or a parent seeing the girls that you know turn violent. Give us a call 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We'll be back after this break.

Support for WGBH comes from you and from Simmons leadership conference on Friday April 30th a day of leadership motivation and networking for women seeking to compete in today's changing business climate information at Simmons dot edu slash leadership and from Stoneham theater presenting the dinosaur musical a family friendly musical even fossils will adore March 5th through 21st tickets and information at Stoneham theater org. That's Stoneham theater dot org. And from the New England mobile book fair in Newton. For 53 years New England's independent bookstore. The New England mobile book fair find them online at any book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com. Hi I'm Brian O'Donovan. And on Saturday March 20th I'll be hosting the fifth anywhere presentation of a St. Patrick's Day Camp explosion at Sanders Theatre at Harvard University

an evening filled with incredible night music dance and plenty of good cheer. I hope you can join us to contribute one hundred twenty dollars. The stock at WGBH can pick up membership and you receive two complimentary tickets to the show. More details at GBH dot org slash. This is eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with the world. The PBS News Hour and the callee Crossley Show explore new voices with us all day long here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Visit WGBH dot org and sign up to win a complete DVD library courtesy of the PBS on line shop 20 titles and all most produced right here at WGBH Boston complete rules of entry available online at WGBH.

I'm callin Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. We're talking about violence among girls are you saying an increase in this kind of behavior. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can also e-mail us at Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot org. We are joined by Deborah Weaver Lynn Michael Brown and media Chesney Lynn Deborah Weaver is founder and director of girls leap Lynn Michael Brown is a professor at Colby College and media Chesney land is a professor at the University of Hawaii. Glenn I want to go to you now because I read a statistic that said 80 percent of school fights involve girls. And your thought is that the gender boundaries have eroded giving girls a feeling of power by engaging in this kind of violent behavior can you explain. Yeah I think even the way we're talking about this is a very sensationalized kind of visible thing that when a girl fight is videotaped and sort of makes its

way around the media 24/7 it's a it's a way for girls to get visibility as a way for them to get power. And we live in a culture that really glorifies a kind of violence and you know sort of visibility in that way I think girls are absolutely taking those messages in. I think you can't really these days watch a P.G. 13 film targeting girls that doesn't have some kind of girl fight in it and it can be relational or it can be physical. So we're seeing so much of this in girls media at younger and younger ages. Third grade doesn't surprise me it's in their media as well. And you know really identifying kind of femininity with a certain way of being a girl in a certain way of regressing around beauty images around sort of body type around boys that certainly the messages they're getting in their media now we you know we've been a nation of you know that.

Violence is a is in the background and in the foreground for us I mean that's that's the context for this nation. So often so that hasn't changed. I'm just wondering though what then has for propelled girls to take on some of the roles that we have in the past assigned to boys and certainly men. And let's talk about the media influence you mention that. But when you look on line and you look at girls gone wild or bad girls club on oxygen or snapped which features female killers or female cage fighting or Jersey Shore all of these things are out there for all these girls to see is aside from as you pointed out kind of the school age films which feature some kind of fighting with girls. Has that made the difference. I mean has that gotten them to feel like this is OK. I think it's not just that that's made the difference. I think that it's out there that those boundaries have been sort of eroded as you know sort of we've suggested. But there's also a kind of

Jenny out there that shows that if you're too feminine particularly coarse if you're a boy too weak or was see you're vulnerable then you know that's you can't be taken seriously. You could be called gay. I think girls also pick up on those messages there's a kind of sort of girls massaging me out there where girls are sort of the tough girls are the ones who have more power in some contacts and the girls are two whiskies So you know so those kinds of things that used to be male and female girls are really taking in as certain kinds of girls or types of girls. And it's again those messages are there for them to consume. Again we're talking with Deborah Weaver Lynn Michael Brown and meta Lynn about the uptick we don't have those stats but more prevalence of YouTube videos with girl on girl violence very extreme girl on girl violence. We have a phone call. Russell

Go ahead. Yeah I have a question about the origination I guess something I've been thinking about. Maybe the people that are you know on the panel here might have an answer for it but my thought is that as we see the rows of the family unit you know the mother father figures you know and probably teaching the children how to behave you know in a family unit the families are torn apart. I mean I'm even noticed in the ME anyway and it seems like boys are really growing up late men were also seen I think seen thing with girls when I seen that girls are doing is really being taught properly and I think the problem is much greater than just looking at you know it just to hear you you know if your research has shown it you know if it's doing any kind of you know breakdown of family unit. Good question Russell. Deborah take that one please. You've been interviewing girls yeah. We've been working on a report in Boston for the last year and a half which we're calling voices on

violence the experience of girls in Boston. And I do agree with Russell that there are many factors that are contributing I think media is one lack of parenting engagement is another lack of afterschool activities that promote positive environments for girls. But I think we are also missing opportunities on a daily basis to work with girls on very proactive life skills that will help them learn how to make peace and how to de-escalate conflict. And I think that that has to be something that we work on not just with girls also with boys also with educators also with families we are not really promoting the peaceful resolution of conflicts we're promoting violent and. And ugly resolutions to conflicts and power being the you know the first thing that people grasp towards. I'm never going to ask you what do the girls tell you exactly when you in those interviews

they tell us that they are fighting. Often they tell us that they consider it normal to fight. They don't think it's any big deal when they see harassment they've sort of normalized behaviors and ways of interacting that we find alarming as adults. They also tell us that when things happen like they get approached in East Boston by men in vans offering them employment which they understand to mean prostitution. They don't tell anyone because they think it's no big deal this is just part of what's on the landscape of their streets. So what we're seeing are that girls are increasingly feeling isolated in their knowledge of what's going on in their own communities and they don't really know that they might need to get asked for help and where to get that help. Lynn I believe you. You have also looked at the fact that you mentioned it just moments ago that there is some undercurrent of this something that Deborah just mentioned. There are some

sexualization going on here that that seems to get promoted certainly and just casual conversations that I hear on the television. You know Howard Stern saying you know I'd love to say that's the radio but saying you know I'd love to see girls fight that kind of thing as if it's kind of fun. And yet not threatening in some way. Absolutely. It's insane. It's all over and it's even in their tween TV you know where they're you know that kind of fighting or competing particularly over a guy is a kind of sexy thing to do it's a performance which is why we see these things in front of lots of people and of course social media allows those that performance to be before millions and so it's all the more exciting. But you know even you know again when it when we see a videotape of this and it's it's the videotape of the girls that will be on the news for 24/7 for a week you know a lot of boys violence will not make it to that level and so we still in this culture have

this idea that it's a very sexy kind of thing for girls to compete against other girls typically over boys. Yeah there is a I want to just quote from a salon commentary was on Salon dot com by the author is Mary Elizabeth Williams and she was writing about this girl on girl YouTube. Phenomenon and CBS News had a big story on it which spiked more interest in it. But this is what she says. It's funny I've never heard a news report about guys kicking each other's blanks referred to as dude's Gone Wild more man on man action upright blood lust plus underage girls. It's angry and violent and so easy to snark on. And just a little bit gay esque exclamation point. The titillation factor is just too irresistible whether it's a jerk with the cell phone or a major news network. And of course I was referring there to the CBS program. You can buy videos of girl fights through Amazon you can just buy entire video of hot girls fighting I mean it's everywhere right.

Can I ask you how do we understand the rise in detention rates of girls is that connected and I'm also trying to make the difference between the girls fighting as we've seen here extreme as it is and gangs like when does it turn into a gang. Well you know let me let me just back up on one point that just to reiterate that it's really important to understand the backgrounds of the girls that get involved in violence. And one of the things we know is that they they're coming for this behavior out of violent settings in their family. You know the caller that mentioned that earlier we really need to understand that the girls are mimicking male but male violence that they see in their lives as a way to get power when they feel especially powerless. So that's one of the dynamics that's occurring here. And so if you have been a victim of violence you're likely to perpetrate it much more like. Yeah and that you're you know you see this violence around you you see your stepfather hitting your mother or her boyfriend hitting her and you and you're fighting by that and you're also the victim of

that. So going to the violent behavior is is the way to kind of get the power and in dangerous neighborhoods are dangerous to family and that's the context that that often produces behaviors that you mentioned now gangs. We know that girls are significant portion of the kids in gangs especially if we add the kids directly. So you know when we think about gangs we have to understand that there are girls in those situations. They're coming again to the gang for safety and protection and of course not necessarily getting that in some cases endangering themselves by those choices. But the result of our paying attention to this behavior and I keep stressing and I want to stress that this behavior was always there. It's you know when in the 70s we were concerned about who girls were going to bed with and now we're concerned about you know who girls are hitting. Girls have always and especially the girls that you're talking about who are in gangs you know they're they have problems and you know Deborah mentioned some of the issues that they have. They they walk through dangerous neighborhoods and in some cases they need those skills and in some cases the

groups that they are turning to for help you know get them into a further trouble and. But yeah the result of this of course. It's been that we've seen dramatic 98 percent increases in the number of girls in detention ever mentioned and it's true across the nation we also see larger numbers of girls going into the juvenile justice system and being labeled as violent which which has enormous consequences. But understand that most of the violence that girls are committing are I haven't heard of a single admission to a hospital as a result of most of these girl fights. So I'm kind of BDM sensationalization if it was a bunch of guys nobody would care. And I think that's another point we have to when we when we discuss this we have to keep it and it still goes against it. Yes it still goes again stereotypes. That was me to Chesney Lynn professor at the University of Hawaii speaking I'm going to turn to Deborah to. I echo this a little bit and also ask what is the impact on us the rest of us in society we see these videos. I was personally shocked by the videos from LOL I couldn't believe it.

And you know it has an impact on me I'm quite concerned about it what is it what does it do as a as a rule though. Well I think Violence breeds fear and fear feeds violence and I totally agree that the girls that are perpetrating violence are surrounded by it in their own communities. We haven't really talked I don't think enough about what kind of protective factors girls and youth in general need in order to make different kinds of choices than gaining power through the type of violent confrontations that we're seeing. I think that we don't have safe places for girls. We don't even have safe places for girls to talk about the violence that they're seeing and experiencing and therefore they're becoming even further isolated in their own experiences. We don't have places where they are being men toward and role modeled by other women who are themselves trained to be peacekeepers and to help promote different kinds of conflict

resolution. But what does that mean in this economy when all those kinds of programs that were funded are just can't be or are not being. Well I think we have to call into question what the social costs are going to be for traumatized children becoming parents and trying to work and trying to engage in the long term run of their lives. So this is public health costs now. I think this is a very expensive I mean if you talk to Deborah prosthetist if every child who experiences of violent trauma the cost to our society are far greater than the cost would have been if we had invested in prevention services for those youth as they were growing up. Glenn I hear you want to get in on that leg. Well I just I just wanted to sort of. I would absolutely agree with that I think the one piece I would also add is that in this economy the stress on communities and families is so high and I think we it's really easy to kind of say oh that you know the parents are just at fault here but I think we're all sort of under a lot of stress and with as Deborah said

the cost of this or our high family says Wow well what can we can expect in the future it doesn't sound promising. Well right now Massachusetts is talking about passing anti-bullying laws right anyhow and that you all have said that the cyber bullying case in which the young woman was cyber bullied to and committed suicide is really unusual. That's not well. The incidences of cyber bullying in the 15 to 18 year old age group is is very high and increasing and I think it's again it's it can be very relentless because one means statement can circle back and cycle back over and over again. Why is legislation the answer. I'm speaking with Deborah Weaver now a girl's leap I think legislation is is only a very small piece of answers. We need to make answers on a lot of different levels I think we need to make investment in a lot of different levels. I think we need to really think about working with local agencies to help provide programming for kids. That is very focused not just on keeping them off

the streets but on developing these critical life skills that they're not getting in their own communities or that they may not be seeing modeled anywhere around them. Len what would happen if you two refused to post these videos. Would that be helpful. Well I actually think yeah sure that well I mean you know they want to live you right I would be helpful if we didn't sensationalize this. I mean I think that would be a big help. But I wanted to go back to this issue about sort of bully prevention and you know sort of legal response to this. I have a lot of concern about bully prevention laws because I think that they tend to be sort of sexual sexualized you know d sort of. They actually don't deal with sort of the real issues the real issues you know if it's. I think we have to call this what it is. You know if it's a sexual harassment because you know we have to deal with it that way if it's domestic violence we deal with it that way if it's homophobia. You know I think I don't

know but on their cyber bully yes. The problem with bullying is that it's a very generic kind of response and I think it can be gender d race t everything sort of school safety or community safety so I think it's more complex than a law. Well really I think it's very complex and also I mean if you think about who is going to train teachers and allocate time in school for those kinds of behavioral changes. Well I'm afraid we're probably going to have to revisit this conversation because this is some pretty heavy issues that all of you have raised and I hope that people take something away from this conversation because it certainly shocked me. We've been talking about girls behaving violent with Deborah Weaver the founder and director of girls leap Lynn Michael Brown a professor of education at Colby College and media Chesney Lind a professor of West women's studies at the University of Hawaii. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you for having us on.

Coming up we check in with a man who has his pulse on American values Reverend Jim Wallace. We'll be back after this break stay tune to eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Support for WGBH comes from you and from safety insurance which is committed to working with independent agents in Massachusetts and New Hampshire to provide coverage that protects your home's auto's business and financial interests. You can learn more about safety insurance at safety insurance dot com. And from the Massachusetts Freemasons. Who believe that a man's greatness can be measured. And it's not by his wealth or fame. You can learn more at the Massachusetts Freemasons website. Ask a Freemason dot org. This is eighty nine point seven. Boston's NPR station for

trusted voices and local conversation with the takeaway. The Diane Rehm Show and the Emily explore new voices with us all day long here on the eighty nine point seven. As Boston's only source for public radio and public television brings you national headlines from NPR News. For weeks the Pentagon rumor mill has been churning and the national parks from Ken Burns. Wallace Stegner said it was the best idea we've ever had. And when you sign up right now you can win a DVD library courtesy of the PBS online shop. Twenty titles in all including 12 hours of the national parks. From Ken Burns an entry on line at WGBH why eighty nine point seven. Because there are calls for cyber bullying legislation has been making its way to the state house because you'll only hear on the news. Eighty

nine point seven radio. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. Reverend Jim Wallis is one of our leading figures at the crossroads of religion and politics. He is the founder of Sojourners a global faith and justice network and he joins us today to discuss his latest book Rediscovering Values on Wall Street Main Street. And your street Reverend Jim Wallis welcome. Hi Kelly great to be on your show. Now I like this book because you're looking at the economic crisis through a moral perspective which is the way that we haven't really examined it I don't think I want to quote one line from the book that I thought was really interesting. You say the economic crisis is not just something that has happened to us but as happened with us Can you explain that. I think many Americans are now feeling that underneath this economic crisis there's a values crisis as well and the economic recovery probably will happen without a moral recovery as well so it's structural. It sure is structural but it's also

spiritual. So the bad morality play banks and bonuses and bailouts is one thing I love to talk about that I'm pretty angry about that. But underneath there is an erosion of societal values. So the but the bonuses are horrendous but they're a symptom. For example there are new maxims that have taken over now seduced as greed is good all about me and I want it now. Now Wall Street is behaving that way as a way of life. But you know we have to look at the look in the mirror here and say. Have we forgotten some of the old the new old rich is like enough is enough. We're in this together. I love the Native American ethic of valuing decisions today by their impact on the seventh generation out. Or instead of keeping up with the Joneses when we check in make sure the Jones are OK. It's a very different kind of ethic. Well I like your chapter when the market became God and I'm just going to read a little bit here it says like one of the devouring gods of all the market aptly embodied in a bull or bear must be fed and kept happy under all circumstances and

to even question the market's high priests and their declarations is to commit heresy. The worship of this false god the market has become quite ecumenical across denominational and faith persuasions herds of us are bowing down to the doctrines and dictates of the market. But this crisis presents us with an opportunity not just to be smarter and more prudent about our economic lives but to change something much deeper. To reject the idolatry of our market worship to expose the idols that have ensnared us and to reduce the market in caps and in quotes to simply the market lower case asking the market to again serve us rather than the other way around. That's pretty powerful stuff. Yeah Harvey Cox who teaches at Harvard not far from here wrote a very prophetic article ahead of its time I called Harvey in the book. On the stock market is God he as a theologian begin to read the business pages in the newspaper he found these familiar language the market is omnipresent and all knowing and all powerful and I think that's what's happened to us. Joseph Schumpeter said that when there is

no ethical sensibility the market ends up devolving all of the sectors and founding devours itself. And we've seen that in Adam Smith you know the famous Wealth of Nations invisible hand of the market guy said without a moral framework. The market can function properly so it's become this this this almost like a golden calf that we worship. Alan Greenspan speaks we all are quiet and listen. Congressman was wrong about a lot of things now he's admitted these are wrong but he was wrong and we paid too much attention and we've lost the balance here. What does it look like when we are ethical when we are operating in a moral space with regard to the economy and the market. What do we do. What does that look like. Well I have no problem with a hardware store around the corner or the local bank. We're joined I just put our money after a fire in Bank of America. Taking your money out a lot of people are fired because they are. Unfortunately the banks say they're too big to fail us and make them smaller.

So when you when you bundle up mortgage securities and make a profit when you get bailed out you caused a crisis you get bailed out you take that money and get richer from it and then get bonuses out to your executives. I call that a sin of biblical proportions. Now a lot of people agree with you. That's right. But that's just half a dozen banks here I mean I talk about other bankers in the book who refused to do that who kept their relationship with their customers relationships matter I say in the book between employees employees bankers and those who borrow from the parents and kids. And so you know I think this is something that could be a time for a reset crisis is an opportunity for rethinking fundamental things so if we don't learn from this of and all the pain and suffering of like my hometown of Detroit or one of two workers is looking for a job in my hometown. That will be in vain. But if we can learn from this and do a reset it could be redemptive. That's what I'm hoping that's what the book is for.

You're saying we should apply our values and think about reordering the priorities of government. Can you talk about that a little bit. Well there's a big deal going on right now in the Congress whether we need a consumer financial protection agency. You know Elizabeth Warren has been pushing for this. I did a lot of Harvard yesterday and it's it's completely unnecessary because all the rules of the road all the regulations that we had from the 1930s have been taken out quietly by corporations putting all their money in Congress and removing all the rules. And that's why we had this crisis in large part and now they want to spend 200 million more to keep themselves from being regulated now this is like credit cards older listeners will remember when it was like a one page application. Now it's 30 mortgages that's fine print is meant to deceive and cheat you. That's why it's there. And I was on point a Boston here awhile back and a caller said you know to $15 overdraft as an unemployed I was adding I just added

wrong. And I had a $60 penalty for that. So yes it's wrong and the banks should be not allowed to do that unless there's a protection they will. They're acting in a lawless predatory ways those six banks own 90 percent the credit card business you know. So what's happening to us is just wrong so I had her on list with 25 heads of churches and pastors and he says have your families. It's a family issue. You know our people are being cheated they're being they're they're being crushed. And so government Republicans and Democrats are literally it's not a hyperbole to say they are in bed with Wall Street. They are just completely under their control unless they break that control and start being responsible as public servants then then it won't be rhetoric to say we have a money of a government buy of for and by. You know money not the people. Exactly. So this is a real battle now it's almost Jesus choice

choose you this day who you will serve God or Mammon. It's really becoming that kind of choice now. We're talking with Reverend Jim Wallis his new book is Rediscovering Values on Wall Street Main Street and your street. Now some people could hear what you just said about you know reordering government in our priorities and the anger that you have about it which reflects the anger that a lot of people laugh and say Are you part of the Tea Party movement. I mean that's what they're saying. We're we're angry about government we're angry about the status quo. We think values have been pushed aside and we want to see something completely different. What say you. But what they're saying is Well I'm hearing that they're and they're angry about being left out left behind other folks who are being bailed out we're not I understand all that. But but they're focusing on government as the problem I never hear them say this is the big business. Wall Street this crisis was caused by Wall Street. It led to an economic recession terrible pain and you can't let Wall Street off the hook here. And if you

say I don't want government to intervene that's saying do we really want our kids to play with toys that the Chinese can make however they want to do we want the corporations to be just voluntary whether they. Pollute our water and our air. Do you want some control. There's got to be some accountability. I was a Davos world he can have a forum. And I said we've got to talk about a common good economy here. And I think that's all we're talking about here what would the common good look like. The invisible hand of the market has let go of the common good. And when that happens things begin to unravel so things are unraveling all around. And I think the book's talking about the need for a citizens citizens movement here. The crisis can allow us to rethink what Wall Street should be doing and what Washington do but also what we can do in a print personal level families communities a lot of good choices are being made. Family time versus screen time. Having dinner more often in the home buying less and doing more.

I talk about well this is part of your moral exercise thing you suggest why don't you go ahead and outline some more of those. Well you know it's got to be on a number of levels personal communal and public but the first one is your calendar is a moral document. And this is really very powerful because I believe this. As far as your budget is a moral right. And so I thought how well that's how I learned a lot. But this having an 11 year old and six year old you know it really it really I know I know make my travel schedule around Little League baseball coach both boys teams and that just changes your perspective. You know now a lot of particular I talk to a lot of single parents single moms who are jumping three jobs and they're working when they like to put their kids to bed so they're under enormous pressures here. Families in trouble not because of the usual suspects it's in trouble because of this relentless economic pressure now. So we're talking about lifestyle audits and we're talking about congregational check was part of adjoining campaigns

campaigns around things like financial consumer protection. We're talking about and moving your money. When you when you talk about your calendar How is it that your calendar. You know what do you write down your priorities your life priorities what's important. Sit down with your family your spouse your partner. They look at your calendar. And look at your budget has been your money I spend your time. Does it match up it's kind of a wake up call. You know does our our our time spent money spent really reflect our priorities. That's a great exercise. And if and if they do then you are if they need some re-ordering then you're moving more toward having a moral response to the financial crisis. It's a reset to look in the mirror and say the banks have got to be put under control yes. But what about me I mean my Depression era parents did not spend money they didn't have for things they didn't need. They just didn't do it and you know many of us have to plead guilty to doing some of

that. So some of that we're doing a lot of it you know that's how we value even my poorest neighbors. You know I live a lot of poor neighbors and even really poor people sometimes are consumed by this relentless pressure from advertising. We are what we buy and wear and have and is this. The values of modern advertising we don't want to kids to grow up with we really don't. And if you're a parent you feel like this is salt that's coming every day from the popular culture is aimed right at your kid this aimed right at Luke and John it is actually that's how I feel. Why did Luke and Jack I want to just protect them from that so. So it's got to happen. There is we have succumb to materialism here and what Dr. King talked about we are becoming a thing or even society instead of a person. This is in the 50s and 60s what would he say today. So so it's got to be personal and spiritual as well as holding Wall Street structurally accountable it's got to be all that same time that's that's that's beginning the Seleka movement you know that when things get personal

you make choices you begin to build connections. People do a local study groups faith and financed by current Haitian small business going forward in faith and finance in our local church adult Sunday school curriculum on economics. That was a good idea because her old values religion has no monopoly on morality. But there are values from our traditions like simplicity patience humility modesty. Remember that. And stewardship sustainability and you know the image of God in every one of us that those values really really are correctives to the economic mindset now. That's that's really reigning supreme. I like the part in your book you call the pot luck perspective because it balances out the anger that you say many of us have. But at the same time moves us toward thinking more broadly about that common good and essentially it's that we understand that when you have a potluck somebody never brings anything and always that's the most and we yet

still have to include them. Talk about the you know anger is legitimate but if it isn't channeled into energy for change it could become very very poisonous and that's the thing I'm afraid of you know just anger and it just lashes out. But it's energy that moves us in different direction publicly because I've been to lots of pot lucks and has always some always great stuff that the church lady brings you know but then he's always goes by a loaf of bread on the way to the thing. Half a piece of pie and and it's you know it's not fair. And some level not totally fair but it somehow works out. Everybody somehow goes away with what they need it's sort of it's sort of a good example of how an economy can work if we're all sort of you know saying God's economy there is enough if we share it you know. So I'm talking about how Jewish and Muslim and Christian and other ideas that aren't religious but kind of spiritual can help shape this again.

I hear people say you CEOs come to me like nikka Demus and write quiet and dark conversations about I feel like I've lost something. I'm not religious anymore but I feel like I've lost some guys or my mom has to read these stories to me at night when I was a kid and I love those stories and I lost those values somehow I'm not happy with what I'm doing you know. You think that I mean there's always been already been evidence that many Americans are for example saving I mean I never did before but they are now and they are turning away from the kind of materialism that you articulated so why we're on the path toward being a little by where I've now been these book events have been like town meetings we've been whole and Detroit the star of the book thing in Detroit. What a place start a book tour in Detroit when I was going to money 500 people turned up. Unemployed people pastors economists business people a lot of students. Half the girls are under 30 and that conversation is in fact going on now at the media level. It's still not I wish I'd done chapter in the book on

airport security and went on Tiger Woods and I would have you know right then you would have definitely get out of it but at a real people level on mainstreet this conversation is really really going on in Detroit. Sometimes we're you got nothing left but hope new stuff breaks out in Detroit. The capitation fathers have given away. Hundreds of thousands of plants and they see this whole community gardening equipment all over the Motor City and it's like hundreds of family farms on squatted land abandoned land vacant lots and so unemployed folks are working and growing. Good healthy local food and it's building community so the community building stuff is really taking off in lots of places so it's connecting Karg ations with their neighborhoods again which often is is a critical thing to happen. But I think it's got to really. Finally you know Barack Obama said after he won I can't accomplish much Alysa have the wind of a movement at my back and he said back when some of his old friends had his email I wrote him

back that day and I said Yeah I don't want your front to clear the path and pull you along sometimes when necessary. And I think we need that now more than ever. So Wall Street is not showing remorse repentance but they're learning much they're in fact trying to go back to business as usual. But we need a new normal now what's a new normal look like that's why. It's up to us to figure that out. Yeah exactly. Well thank you Reverend Jim Wallis thank you for joining us. My pleasure. You can catch Reverend Jim Wallace tonight. He will present presenting at the John F. Kennedy Jr. forum. The program will begin at 6 p.m. at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government in Cambridge. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show by visiting our website WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show. Today's program was engineered by Antonio and produced by Chelsea mirrors our production assistant is an a white knuckle be our production of WGBH radio. Boston's NPR station for news and culture.