WGBH Radio; The Emily Rooney Show

From WGBH in Boston this is the Emily Rooney show. It's Wednesday November 30th. 2011. I'm Karen Miller. In for Emily Rooney. On Today show Valerie Flame and Ambassador Joe Wilson will for ever be linked to one of the most spectacular controversies of our time. The decision to invade Iraq in 2003. But they say they aren't even the real victims. Whatever that word is here it be prepared for the real thing. The Wilsons join us. But first why the latest allegations against Herman Cain might prove the most damaging your. Pants. When the job's not intellectually theories and radical protests the new anti. It was but more an add in how political attacks differ when the target is female. It's all coming up this hour. Emily Rooney show. But. First. The news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Louise Schiavone. World financial markets are

bullish after the Federal Reserve and European Central Bank's move to avert a credit crunch. The Dow has spiked more than 400 points today behind all of it. A coordinated effort. The banks have eased access to dollars by reducing borrowing rates and early Berliner tells us that while the mood is positive there's still no magic bullet. This was something of a surprise. It was a lot of excitement about this. However I should say this is not going to sell the European. Debt problem this is a quick immediate move to keep the European banking system functioning as normal. The move comes in response to fears that a default by a European country might touch off a credit tightening similar to what followed the collapse of Lehman Brothers in 2008. Job layoffs so far this year are topping all of last years cuts. NPR as Paul Brown has details. Challenger Gray and Christmas reports employers cutting virtually the same number of jobs this month as last. And even though the 42000 November layoffs are down from

November of last year they pushed the total so far this year 13 percent above 2010s final figure. John Challenger of the outplacement firm says as governments across the U.S. cut budgets there's one clear loser in the employment figures. Job cuts were dominated by the government. Forty four percent of all job cuts during the month of November. Challenger says next hardest hit is the financial sector and financial firms have indicated they may be laying off many more employees. Paul Brown NPR News. Payroll processor ADP says U.S. employers added 200 6000 jobs in November. Belt tightening pension changes are behind Great Britain's biggest public sector strike in a generation. And London Larry Miller tells us politicians there are blaming each other in a raucous exchange the leader of the opposition Labour's Ed Miliband accused Prime Minister David Cameron of cutting too deeply and hurting too many. At the very least we now know he'll never ever be able to fly

again. WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER Cameron countered it's Labour's 13 years in power they've got Britain so deeply in debt and that's why his government is now being tested. We will meet that test by getting on top of our debt getting on top of our deficit. He is being tested too and he has been showing that he's weak left wing an irresponsible strike as a protest against government plans to make public sector employees work longer pay more pension contributions and get less when they retire. For NPR News I'm Larry Miller in London. The U.K. has ordered Iran's diplomats out of Great Britain in the wake of attacks on the British embassy and other offices in Tehran. Britain also has recalled its diplomats from Iran on Wall Street the Dow up 418 points at eleven thousand nine hundred seventy four Nasdaq up 87. This is NPR. Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa has high praise for City police who cleared an Occupy

Los Angeles encampment overnight. In my life I've never seen. A more professional. Restrained. Police Force. Under very very trying circumstances as I witnessed today. Complaints about crime unsanitary conditions and property damage led him to order the action but for small early tangles with police the action was peaceful took just a few hours. It was a similar scene in Philadelphia as protesters abandoned their tents overnight. Opposition leaders in the Democratic Republic of Congo charge. There was so much fraud in the elections that started two days ago. The results should be scrapped and PR as Ofeibea Quist reports the election commission says there's no reason for the vote to be canceled amid continuing political tension leading opposition candidates say the elections in Congo lack credibility and they're calling for a rerun with the elections chief. Danielle says this organization on voting day on Monday does not justify the vote being a nod

significantly president she has left main presidential rival. It has not been. Opposition calls for the ballot to be scrapped. She said Katie's party believes that despite the irregularities he can still win. NPR News Kinshasa ex-Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky facing his first sex abuse lawsuit the accuser says he met Sandusky when he was 10 years old. Charges Sandusky abused him many times. Louise Schiavone NPR News Washington. Support for NPR comes from the school foundation supporting social entrepreneurs and their renovations to solve the world's most pressing problems at s k o l l dot org. It's live and it's local. Coming up next two hours of local talk the Emily Rooney show and the callee Crossley Show. Only on WGBH. Good afternoon you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. I'm Karen Miller in

for Emily Rooney. Despite despite reports yesterday that Herman Cain was reassessing his embattled campaign today the Republican presidential candidate claimed a groundswell of positive support from his backers. This of course comes on the heels of new allegations of a 13 year extramarital affair with Atlanta businesswoman Ginger White. Here she is speaking with ABC news this morning. The thing is I can't imagine waking up one morning and deciding to come out with this if this was not true. This has been a very difficult situation for myself and for my family. And it's nothing that I am proud of. When I entered into the said appropriate relationship with Mr. Cain I was single. I was not married. Mr. Cain has been married throughout the entire relationship. And you know it's it's unfortunate. Cain has sent out an e-mail to his supporters he has denied the affair and he has publicly criticized White calling her quote a troubled woman who is quote using

national media outlets to probably a fabricated unsubstantiated story at his first stop this morning in Ohio. Herman Cain gave a well-received speech to about 150 people with no indication at all that he was considering abandoning his bid for the presidency. A feisty Cain didn't name his critics but he cures them of attacking him in order to try to bring him down. Joining me now to talk more about that and about her fascinating look at the new anti Elizabeth Warren TV ad and how political advertisements differ when the target is female. As journalist and Libby Copeland who focuses on gender issues in politics her work appears regularly on Slate dot com. Libby Copeland thanks for being here. Thanks so much care I'm glad to be here. So my first question for you is about this this breaking Herman Cain News where he has there's been this talk that he was want to get out but now it looks like he he may want to stay in. You wrote about this on Slate and you have a quote from his attorney Lin Wood who has a sort of remarkable statement I'm going to read a

little bit of it and then and then ask you what you make of it. Lin Wood says this is not an accusation of harassment in the workplace. This is not an accusation of an assault which are subject matters of legitimate inquiry to a political candidate. Rather this appears to be an accusation of private alleged consensual conduct between adults a subject matter which is not a proper subject of inquiry by the media or the public and he goes on. What do you make of that. I mean I just thought that that was a really remarkable statement because anyone who led the country for the last three decades knows that that that train left the station a really long time ago which is to say that if you lived through the Clinton presidency if you recall Henry Hyde and Bob Livingston and and David Vitter and I and a whole lot of other fellows who got into trouble mostly guys. First accidental you know that private sexual behavior is a matter that the public at this point given title to consider

particularly if they're looking at someone who is running for office and particularly the president. And you may say that you wish it weren't that way or that once upon a time it wasn't that way but you know as John Edwards can attest it absolutely is at this point a matter of public scrutiny and public inquiry and media inquiry. When a presidential candidate has an extramarital affair and yet are we changing gears here I mean you mentioned David Vitter who frequented prostitutes and he stayed in the Senate from Louisiana after that happened you know obviously we've got New Gingrich. It's not exactly the same but he's had sort of a a little bit of a questionable past three marriages and then sort of questionable ways in which he left the various marriages. It could we be turning a corner here into a place where private sexual behavior doesn't matter as much. Right exactly Well I think the difference is. Not that it doesn't matter but that people want to be able to look at it and consider it right. So it's no longer something that you know once upon a time you

know 50 years ago the press might know something sort of off the record and tiptoe around it and not report it. And you'd hear all the stories about what the press knew and why it didn't report you know rumors of of infidelity among presidential candidates or the president. The difference is it may not be a deal killer but it is certainly something that people tend to want to know about. And there's this there's this conventional wisdom that the that the going to lie is worse than the fact itself. I think that sometimes can be exaggerated but there's a kernel of truth in this idea that voters kind of want to know are right. Like tell us a skeleton closet let us evaluate them we may or may not think they're a big deal. But at the very least let us know about them. And you know if they happen to come out don't lie about them because that tends to compound the. Problem it's an interesting thing though with Herman Cain because you had Sharon Bialek have this really sort of lurid press conference and you've seen

other people come out with allegations against him of sexual harassment. And his response to that was to bring his wife out to be interviewed by go to Manchester and but his response to this. I had a consensual affair with him. Were these reports yesterday that filled the media of I'm rethinking my entire campaign. What do you make of that. Yeah it's a little confusing. There's been a little bit of coverage but not as much about like to be kind of exploring this. Mike Huckabee came out of that on Fox. I think it was yesterday that this is the most damaging allegation that has been made. Right. And you kind of think well there was an allegation of a link the extramarital affair worse than an allegation of sexual harassment. Thanks though for the most part it's not so much a question of quality as quantity right. So it's the cumulative effect of a whole lot of Gandel kind of lumped on top of one

another and then not doing so well. It kind of gets yet another one. Granted it's completely different than the other allegation and many would say that less ethically troubling than allegations of sexual harassment but nevertheless it comes on top of that. If it had been the other way around I could see a scenario in which the allegations of sexual harassment would be the thing that brought him down and not the allegation of of a of an extramarital affair. So I think it's as much about timing as the actual substance of the allegation. Right. I want to switch gears a little you have a fascinating piece in Slate in which you talk about the new ad against Elizabeth Warren who have course is running for Senate here in Massachusetts. And what I'd like to do is play a little bit of that ad and I'll mention that it was funded by Karl Rove's political action committee which is called Crossroads GPA s. So let's listen to it and then come back in. You can talk to us about what's going on here.

Fourteen million Americans out of work. But instead of focusing on jobs. Elizabeth Warren sides with extreme left protests. At Occupy Wall Street. Protests. There's a tolerance to drugs and trash public parks. They support. Radical redistribution of wealth and. Violence. But warn folks. I created much of the intellectual foundation for what they do. I support what they do. Intellectual stone Daish and phone lines in your shops. Not to mention the theories and radical protests Libby Copeland you say in your article on Slate which is there's a link to on our website that that women are really attacked differently than men often in ads. And I wonder if you can just take us through that a little bit. Yeah sure absolutely. I mean part of it is attack by association which is certainly the male candidate get their share of well so attacked by association is the sort of link someone to something on savory and then you're hoping to link it in the voter's

mind. Right link this person up to it we're seeing scenes of people living on the streets we're hearing occupy you know protesters on the street we're hearing talk of violence and drugs so the talk is that you know the hope is to kind of link her in people's minds to things that are kind of be bent and on the margins of society so that as I said could you know potentially be something that a male candidate could be hit with as well. But I think there's an extra element to it because they're hitting a female candidate and you know as one of the folks that I. Interviewed put it there. Kathleen Hall Jamieson is the University Pennsylvania Annenberg Public Policy Center director said that voters tend to assume a female candidate as a protector of social values the dirty end of the family. So if you sort of expect the woman to kind of be the center of you know the kind of the moral center of the fighting if she's being linked to these kind of deviant aspects it's all the more problematic for her. And there's a second

thing going on and there was a bit worn ad and that is something we thought a lot of in the 2010 midterm particularly with candidate keep email a Tea Party candidate like Sharron Angle being especially cute of being so extreme that they were downright nutty. And Elizabeth Warren is I would say in this ad being painted as as almost a drain just right so out of touch that she that she's practically belongs in a nut house. And I and I think that these 10 because of our sort of. Cultural History believing you know questions about women at the helm and executive positions and that's the kind of assumptions about their quote unquote hysterical nature and things like that. It calls up all sorts of almost primordial assumptions about women when you call a woman nutty. It can be a little bit more effective I believe than if you're kind of throwing that accusation at a man.

I wonder though if it also sort of plugs into obviously the fact that she's a professor and Harvard is viewed as a left wing institution and they have a you know we we want real action we want jobs we don't want ideas and I wonder if that's also a way of sort of pushing her out to the fringes where she just talks about things but she doesn't really do anything right. I mean this this ad is so chock full of caricature is you could almost make like a Venn diagram out of it. Right. I mean there's actually a point when it's as Professor Elizabeth Warren on the screen as if to underscore the point that she is a professor you know and it should say Harvard professor I don't know why it doesn't further make that point. But yeah I mean a seat liberal out of touch elite all these things. For some voters it will provoke in some voters minds assumptions about her the fact that she is a professor. And then on top of that you have this image of her talking without hearing her voice and she's just a figure waiting a little bit. And you know there's this kind of sense of like this

woman doing you know she's talking but we can't hear what she's saying. And you also see that a lot is an ad just people talking without hearing what they're saying at the way of showing them expressing passion. But you actually can't hear the reason or the substance of what they're saying. So it can undermine them. Well we're talking to Libby Copeland Slate contributor who penned the piece how to hit a woman the new anti Lisbeth Warren ad and how political attack ads differ when the target is female. And Libby Copeland I want to. Play another ad for you. It's from the 2008 campaign and it's attacking Hillary Clinton. When you talk about all these different categories people being sort of power mad and extreme and you know you talked about it here hysterical and this ad to wow it seems to plug into a lot of them. Let's listen to it. Benedict if venal sneaky ideological intolerant warrior is a good one scares the hell.

Really I am sick and tired of people who say that if you say yes agree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic and we should stand up and say oh man I got a I don't like it that way I guess that way right. In that anti Hillary Clinton campaign ad from 2000 eight we heard the voices of Dick Morris and Ann Coulter among others and of course the voice of Hillary. Libby Copeland tell me what's going on in that ad. Yeah this this ad pushes all the buttons for sort of. But I would use the word caricature again the caricature that emerged of Hillary Clinton. Really. We've had this caricature with us for a very long time. And the piece I call it you know the power mad bitch but there she couldn't get her own category in this story because she's been the lampooning of her been raised to an art form. You see it all the way back to 1993 when she was on the cover of my magazine posing as a dominatrix right. So in this ad she is the No she's a

she's she's basically like a grasping domineering and emasculating. Figure remember in 2008 when a nut cracker a Hillary Clinton nut cracker came out right that that's the caricature in a nut shell right there. And it tends often to be coupled with pictures with the for looking either ugly or or over-the-top crazy like you know going to be expressing in her mouth is open she's expressing a thought and her eyes are wide and she's just totally going to take over the country and do crazy stuff to it. You have to grow it. Well I was going to say you're a great quote in your article where you say the Christian Action Network rolled out an ad against Hillary in 2008 where it said she was quote unquote rumored to be a lesbian. That. Is absolutely amazing and I mean you know it it's like if you need any evidence for how stable that character has been around there was also this this fund raising letter that went out in 2000 with you. Running for the Senate New York calling her an ambitious

ruthless scheming calculating manipulating woman and the ad actually used the word woman five times. It's like you know they're they're really they the anti-Hillary Clinton ads and you see them if you go on YouTube there's a lot of viral videos as well as an ad that actually ran on the air rant online. They really almost attackers in separate categories she is a frightening emasculating unattractive figure. You know in pantsuit who will if given power stop at nothing. You know it's really quite astonishing the way that she's been caricature. Do you think. I'm just curious do you think the last four years have helped to dismantle that for Hillary. If she were hypothetically to run again do you think all that same baggage would be wheeled out. Or would it be simply not as effective on the public this time. Goodness. I guess I just tend to think that at least for certain for certain corners

of the culture that she will always be kind of hot but bigger. You know it's very difficult for her to shut up. Yeah I have the sense it's pretty difficult for her to share that. But maybe the number of people who would be better to unlink one question I have for you is how women can sort of fight back here. Back in September and Lee Rooney talked to Barbara Lee who's president of the Barbara Lee Family Foundation she talks about that. You know even though female candidates face barriers new research from her organization says essentially that if they are vocal about gender discrimination they can fight back let's just listen to a cut of Barbara Lee talking to Emily Rooney. So one of the new things that's happened is that when women call out sexism on the campaign trail that it actually turns into an advantage for them that they don't lose points if they are calling out the sexism. And that is a pretty new factor. He and Hillary have done that. You know

it's a good question because we're finding that now when women do that you know that it is actually hurting their opponents. And people are seeing if they're going to fight for themselves they're going to fight for me too. Libby Copeland from Slate What do you think of this idea of calling out sexism. Yeah. You know I remember that study when it came out was really really interesting. That does seem to be true and I actually think you know Hillary Clinton did do this back in 2000. And and actually there was a very successful strategy. She had a debate with Rick Lazio and he approached her in a way that some members of the audience thought with menacing with a get a pledge that he wanted her to sign or something like that. And afterwards she and her advisors sort of I don't know that they actually used the word sexism or sexist they may have but they certainly painted him as aggressive. And the key he suffered from that actually. So I do think that it's true that it can be called out. I think it's worth saying though that sometimes you know

if you read the piece there are some ads that you know. They're sort of on the line it's not clear that they're necessarily intended to be sexist. Sometimes things you can and the level the same attack at a man as that a woman and it will have a different effect and it may tap into certain assumptions about gender. And that may be intentional on the tart on the part of movie makers or the ad makers and in some cases it may not be intentional. So you know it's one of those things where it's always a little bit hard to know what is in the intention. The person who made the ad of course there's the mess where there's there's no question at all and you know there's one ad that I mentioned where you know a candidate in the Los Angeles area congressional candidate was portrayed as a stripper. That happened just recently earlier this year in a special election no question about that. I me interrupt you for a second. We've got that that cut the cut seven. Let's listen to it.

I think we've got an unseen effort to reduce gang violence. Janice Hahn hired hard core gang members with taxpayer money to be gang intervention specialists. She even helped them get out of jail so they could rape and kill again. So that's the ad against Democratic congressional candidate Janice Hahn from California that you were talking about. Yeah. I mean this ad when I hear it it's so ridiculous if it weren't so racist in fact you'd almost laugh. Because of like the horror movie voiceover even in a effort you know it's like and then what you don't hear in that clip is that you actually see a stripper walk onto a stage and start shaking her booty. And when she turns around it's got this congressional candidate John and Jenna pasted on top of the face of the stripper with with blood red hat and eyes. It's bizarre and it's also it's extremely racist ad as well. But I will say it got a lot of attention and it went viral

online and my guess is the folks who created the ad probably were hoping for that. They didn't they didn't manage to reel her at all she she won the election. And I should say we have links to all these ads on our Web site. Libby Copeland Slate contributor and author of How to hit a woman the new anti Elizabeth Warren ad and how political attack ads differ when the target is female. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. They're with but. And we're going to take a short break. When we continue a Valerie Flame and Ambassador Joe Wilson why eight years after their tangle with the Bush administration over the Iraq war do they finally feel a sense of redemption. I'm Karen Miller and you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. Stay with us. WGBH programs exist because of you. And ask dot com working to provide answers that users can trust for questions like How does tanning lotion work or what workouts burn the most calories. More

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year. Take some time to savor the season with a Christmas card hosted by Brian and Donovan. This is my big show combines traditional carols and dance with lots of wonderful surprise. Learn more and reserve two of the best seats in the house with a gift of one hundred fifty dollars online at WGBH dot org slash Celtic. Innovation. It has a huge impact on business and life here in the hub. I'm Karen Miller join us each week for innovation. The big ideas happening in Boston. Saturday mornings at 7:00 and Sunday nights at. 10:00 here on WGBH radio. Welcome back you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. I'm Carol Miller in for Emily Rooney. Valerie Plane Wilson and her husband Joseph Wilson will forever be inextricably linked to one of the most incredible controversies of our time a controversy that called into question President George W. Bush's

decision to invade Iraq in 2003 and that ruined the Wilsons careers at least as they knew them at that time in 2002. A few months after the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center the CIA asked Wilson to travel to the African nation of new share to investigate reports that Iraq had tried to purchase uranium for potential use in nuclear weapon program. After finding no evidence to substantiate that claim. Wilson reported to the CIA and State Department that the reports were false. Yet while he was making the case for the invasion of Iraq President Bush referred to Wilson's work in his 2003 State of the Union message. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium. From Africa Wilson was shocked a few months later he wrote an op ed column in The New York Times in total. What I Didn't Find in Africa and the column hit Washington like a ton of bricks as the Bush administration tried to downplay his

claims. Others attacked his credibility. And then a week later columnist Robert Novak disclosed that Wilson's wife Valerie Plain Wilson was an undercover agent for the CIA. The blowing of her cover on an investigation that ultimately led to the indictment and conviction of Vice President Cheney's chief of staff I Lewis Scooter Libby on charges that he had lied during the investigation to find out who leaked the confidential information about claims role in the CIA. Bush later commuted Libby's sentence but left the conviction intact. Joe Wilson's book The Politics of Truth and Valerie Wilson play Ames book Fair Game where the basis of the 2000 film fair game which starred Sean Penn and Iommi Watts. Here is some of the trailer for that movie. The mission to find the vice president has received a report concerning the purchase of material to build nuclear weapons. We need to get a return to her husband for answers. It is my opinion. Still that science could not have had. Enough

teams in the field. They're all saying the same. But when the truth was made public do you think the White House wants to hear us. There was no nuclear program. True story. They made her pay the price for his fierce sin never worked for the CIA but his wife is an agency in Britain. Q. I can tell you I. Am. A critical operation. In Baghdad. Context. And ready to go. I could get a message to the much talked about. My one. It's over. The Wilsons will be at Boston Symphony Hall tonight for a lecture that is part of the Boston speakers series and they join me from their home in New Mexico recently and I warn you here that the phone line is not the greatest but we were fascinated by what they had to say about the jarring reality of sudden fame from being an undercover CIA agent. The drawdown in Iraq that's coming this winter and

their reaction to former Vice President Dick Cheney's new book. Valerie Wilson and Ambassador Joe Wilson thank you so much for joining us. I think with you our valiant Wilson let me start with you. Your identity was revealed in July of 2003. I wonder if there was a point since 2003 when you felt like you got used to that transition between being undercover and being famous. Was there a moment that that happened. You know I think it took a couple years honestly to come to terms with it. It was so shocking and so I thought it could go from a career that I've loved our privacy to being very public people. And so it's taken me a while to make that adjustment. I please now that I do get to speak much more overtly now publicly about something I care about deeply with the political weight of nuclear weapons and how to stop it. And on other

issues. But I think it's fair to say they have still not used to being public. If so is it still sort of jarring a little bit when people recognize you in a restaurant or when you're walking down the street is that a little hard for you to sort of figure out yeah. Fortunately we live in Santa Fe New Mexico which is very tolerant and very accepting and a good place for our family. So it's not like Brandon Street Washington or New York or I think it would be a little even more great. Ambassador Wilson tell me about that transition a little bit I mean you live sort of right in the D.C. area right in the beltway with surrounded by politicians and diplomats and now you're out in Santa Fe. How is that trans position been for you. Well I must say it's really refreshing. It got people about things other than the fact that people put a focus on it. If Washington. People have real lives out here people have real jobs they do real

things they have they have the brains of everyday American life that you don't often see inside the Beltway and like so it's been great and I would point out I actually spent most of my career over the hill being in Washington was not something that I had ever anticipated. And it was something that we were in watching it really only about our job and what salary job basically evaporated that quickly we get out we did. And. I'm wondering as you you know even as you watch from almost 3000 miles away what you think of how the Iraq war has unfolded. Obviously we're nearing a point where the president has said all troops are going to be withdrawn from Iraq which will mark about nine years not quite since the Iraq war started. When you look at how the war has turned out what do you make of it. How do you assess it you were right there at the beginning. Well I think it is extraordinarily depressing what we've done in Iraq and I think the

world and our relations with the for a long time I was in Baghdad about a year ago it was a much different Baghdad from the Baghdad that I didn't want to when I would start the empathy there for the first Gulf War. The first Gulf War the run up to the purple for literally a week before the war broke out. Doesn't that work in that field. I was walking in a copper parka and the rug market without any security without any apparent with the lever when I was back there last year I couldn't. So from the airport to the empathy. Without a scorecard. Purity on the way. But body armor. What I thought there are pretty poor little resemblance to the guys that are here. Thank you. I wonder what you think of what Baghdad will be like our rock will be like after Americans leave I was listening to some New York Times correspondents all

of whom had sort of done tours of duty in Iraq say that even now people interact. Don't believe that the Americans are leaving when you tell them you know this is it. They don't quite believe it. What will Iraq look like after America leaves do you think I think it's going to be a long road for the Iraqis and I don't know what the outcome. I think if I was a betting man I would bet that they would be in growth a retarded civil war. Both rated lower than violence but for the foreseeable future. Unless and until somebody is as the Prince of reconciliation and also the authority really the governments that sense but I don't see that happening quickly. It was broken. It has been really very badly broken up by your dates to the point where the neighborhoods today are are totally fake and gated and you did not prove what they

would otherwise you have to get the same. And it's got to be a society that is deeply traumatized since the war over 100000 The numbers are not accurate but it we know at least over 100 now that Iraq could have been killed deeply maimed and there I utterly disrupted and told you no thanks to the American invasion. They may wait it. It will haunt them for generations. And Valerie Wilson let me follow up on that. Dick Cheney obviously recently published an autobiography and he has been on a big book tour for it. And he talks about sort of the not being able to anticipate a lot of the things that happened in Iraq not only the intelligence being unclear but also he says there were things we failed to anticipate based on intelligence reports we believed would be we would

be able to rely on the Iraqi police to keep the peace. When you hear even now people talk about the beginning of that war what do you think of that kind of intelligence information that they cite. Well I wouldn't want to speculate on what they thought or did. We can only go by it accurate then we know that they they. The administration with Dick Cheney very very vocal part of that. We're committed to this regime change early on from the days following the 9/11 attack. They were putting into place the conservative theory and it really haven't tapped out very well. B It became circular intelligence reporting where a perfect example would be where Cheney was concerned about what the aluminum too that he his office was talking to reporters about these aluminum tubes supposedly to be used for

centrifuges which is part of making the fifth style material for a nuclear weapon and then so that he put that out there. He goes on the news as well as you can think of the New York Times. There is this concern about the threat of what they might be used for and they would talk about a medically field where you are repeating echo. And Joe Wilson I mean one of the things that I think comes out of Dick Cheney's book is it's sort of you know being in power means never having to say you're sorry. One of the things he talks about is how Congolese are rice tearfully admitting to him and that's a that's a quote that the vice president was right that she should never have said that the words in the state of the Union in 2003 that you talked about in your in your famous New York Times column linking uranium and Iraq Connelly's or I said we shouldn't have

had those 16 words in the state of the Union. And Cheney sort of says no I mean you don't you don't apologize for that kind of thing. Yeah I think that says a lot about Dick Cheney that you go ahead and you buy and then you don't want and protect the lie rather than come clean and I think that's part of the reason for the fact that what would have been a story the story that I wrote in The New York Times ended up being a several year nightmare for several people. But it's moving the bike but the United States and its your staff. And so I think they got it wrong but I think it is only in capable of acknowledging that. But certainly everybody else knows that it says a lot about how far he has fallen when after a 40 year career He catalogued it in an autobiography and literally with.

One of the first requests that anybody asked is about the valley play fair I want to hear from both of you on this. Do you feel like you've ever gotten closure on the on the leaking Valerie's name. Lewis Libby Ah he was obviously was sentenced to 30 months in prison but his sentence was commuted just three months later by President George W. Bush and I know you filed lawsuits. Do you feel like you got closure on that issue. Yeah. Let me take a birth back at that early on. We understood that the battle was really ultimately far bigger than the group that it was about the truth and what it perpetrated on the American people and the world. So the extent to which politicians now really big you know anything about the Iraq war but I think we were led to

war to a bad method is now really hitting that and so that provides a pair of both here and with that and I don't think that ever. Will people come around the house at war with others of the day. But if the state made a choice for president that's the. And I would guess that from a personal perspective. Look you know we're not bitter. Our lives are full and we have definitely moved on but we're much more aware of how the reality in many ways and what can be done I didn't quite know how important it is to stand up and push back. When you think it's the right thing. I think it's also one of the things that we keep a very firmly at the front of our mind is the fact that whatever was done is near in being compared to the real victims which are the American service people and their

family and the Iraqis that we spoke of those who were killed or internally displaced by the really terrible war that looked upon. Do you frequently encounter those service people and what do you hear from from people who've been in Iraq. Well when we speak we were just speaking not so long ago. We do have service people come up to it and thank them for what we do. And of course it is always very moving particularly when it was sort of it was badly wounded to have that exchange because after all. We did everything we could. I did my part of the debate. Well if you would work to try and ensure that that people fully understood where we sent our troops you don't die there people. What it was we were asked them you know why would grab you it.

That's why I was in the debate and doubt that it was with the all the things that they're bringing to the debate. Michael to have your experience in Baghdad including I think that part of the U.S. embassy there during the first Gulf War when I think that America bought a group of other Americans fighting weight with a value Wilson I know you're watching the intelligence community from afar but do you think that what happened to you COULD happen again. Are there any internal mechanisms that have changed is there anything different about the way the government or this administration operates that would preclude this from happening to another CIA agent. Well of course I hope not but in direct answer to your question no nothing has changed in the term. The professor prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald was working with it has been Identity Protection Act. He was a top notch prosecutor and he still struggled with how we worded very poorly.

I would love to be in the future. It would be too onerous. But to reword it so that it is the bar is lowered. If this sort of political shenanigans. That's what it was. Does not they're not every bit but the broader question is the state of the elegant community which has been very well documented in data pre book based on Article top secret America. Our defense budget is up 50 percent in the last year. The 9/11 attacks and they've really become the military intelligence complex it's huge it's that no one no one person can get their arms around it and I don't think it necessarily makes it safer and have you tangled at all with the CIA in terms of writing a memoir working on a movie. Has there been in all this a sort of back and forth about what you can include and what you can't include.

Well. For sure in my book fair game it was about 10 percent likely did they. The CIA claimed that you know they were redacted things for national security reasons which is not true I think it was just a final a final attempt to make sure that the war would not publish it was very sad because I served my I served my country and I love my career with the I am so proud of that and it was a poor chapter of how they did it no pun intended of how they created this. I you know I had made it clear that I am not permitted to acknowledge any CIA affiliation prior to 2002. What you are like here. Yeah. So that's the that is the heart of the reaction.

Ambassador Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame Wilson thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Pleasure. Sure. The Wilsons will be at Boston Symphony Hall tonight for a lecture that's part of the Boston speakers series. Unfortunately Tonight's event is sold out but you can find links to other lectures in the series at our website dept. beach dot org slash Emily Rooney. We're going to take a short break and when we continue from YMCA bract tell y m c a c e. o. Kevin Washington's ascent. I'm Karen Miller and you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. Stay with us. This program is on WGBH thanks to you. And Dedham savings. Your bank providing personal and business banking services to our community proud to support WGBH in the Boston speakers series November 30th with Valerie Plane Wilson and

Ambassador Joe Wilson at Symphony Hall. And celebrity series of Boston presented to cutting edge jazz groups on one stage the vigil Ayer trio and the Miguel's the neon quartet Friday December 9th 8:00 p.m. at Berklee Performance Center. Tickets at Celebrity Series dot org. And the 15000 WGBH sustainers who help the station save thousands of dollars by having their contributions of 5 8 or 12 dollars a month automatically renew. Learn more about sustaining membership at WGBH dot org. I'm Lisa Mullins PR eyes the world brings you more than just the Jews news. Well the poor old British pop it's been around 2000 yes. We introduce you to people around the globe and the idea about how to have a go. If we were only only in Argentina I think is a Scottish thing you know the sense of doom in the air but it's always kind of amusing to us. Join us and hear the world. Coming up at 3 o'clock 7. Pushed in a well as the traditional French holiday cake decorated to resemble the Yule log

with layers of light sponge cake surrounded by rich chocolate buttercream. It's no wonder this desert has remained a holiday centerpiece for more than 100 years. Sample an array of traditional food and drink at our holiday tasting event here at the WGBH studios on Thursday night December 1st from 6 to 8. Tickets are $30 with a discount for WGBH members visit WGBH dot org slash box office. With. With. Was. Welcome back you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. I'm Karen Miller in for Emily Rooney in 1851. A retired sea captain name Thomas Valentine Sullivan and a group of churchgoers created a place as they put it to quote meet the young stranger as he enters our city taken by the hand in an

every way. Throw around him good influences so that he may not feel he is a stranger. It was the US's first YMCA or Young Men's Christian Association and it was established right here in Boston. One hundred sixty years later the Y is a staple in nearly every major American city providing afterschool programs for kids a place to swim. One of those kids was Kevin Washington who was a 10 year old in Philadelphia found a second home at the Y. The organization was so instrumental in his development that after college he went to work for the Y and he never left. Today he serves as head of the YMCA of Greater Boston and he joins me now to talk about a few of the programs there and programs he has launched since arriving in Boston. Thanks very much Kevin Washington eye care for have me today. So pleasure to be here. First day we're going to get to being the CEO in a second but my first question is can you take me back to being a 10 year old. Do you remember the first time you went to the Y or some of the first. Memories from the Y.

He challenged me but I do I remember some of the other I do remember is that the Y as I said a lot of folks found me at the Christian street here in Philadelphia and my youth counselor was named Bill mordant and he was my mentor for life. He passed away about nine years ago. But one of the things I remember was having while I was who was the choir director at the age of 10 to Kevin. Jump off the saddle or pull into the deep water and I was frightened that I would never come up. But I remember that the steak that I remember jumped in that water hit in the bottom and coming back up. And I was so relieved but I was it was a sense of accomplishment at that point in time it helped give you some of the confidence that you have in yourself I remember those well at the YMCA. And as time went on. Did you mostly stick with sports at the Y or did you do other things too. Mostly sports but the other thing I did at the Y which we continue to do today is I volunteered I volunteered a lot of time at the YMCA keeping score cleaning gym waiting waiting at banquets events and things of that nature so it helped gave me a sense of volunteer and being a part of the community. So those are the lessons that I learned that the YMCA had stuck with me for a while about how you

can give back and there's not always about money it's about time service and commitment and those things are lessons that I learned that the YMCA. Give me a sense of what the YMCA has seen and what you've seen during the last few years of economic recession what changes at the Y when people in the community are hurting Do you see more people coming and you see fewer people coming in but what happens. You see a lot of those you see people coming in because it's a sense of relief they get engaged in activities that help them relieve some of the issues that they're dealing with in their life on a regular basis. They're looking for support. They're joining more groups because they want to be around people help support them through these very difficult times. We also see individuals who at one point were able to support themselves with membership at the YMCA not been able to do that but still recognizing that we will take care of them. So we see all of those things when the communities that we are engaged in are going through these difficult economic times. And the Y as we like to say we strengthen the foundations of community we help individuals connect with one another to help them through difficult times and at the same time providing a place for

them to engage in healthy activities. That's for young people as well as all we like to say from the cradle to the grave. Is it harder for you though during these times to come up with your own funding for the why when you have fewer contributions coming in. Well one of the things that has been good about the YMCA is we've been flexible. We do have a substantial amount of income that we raised through our program fees in membership and we combined there so that we are able to serve all communities effectively well so you know we're in Woodburn when reading but we are in Dorchester we're in Roxbury because the YMCA as I say we're one YMCA just happen to have Program distribution centers in many communities. But we combine our resources so that we can effectively be good in all the communities that we are in. Now there's been some controversy and discussion about the YMCA sailing a little bit a little bit about the YMCA selling part of its headquarters has its historic headquarters to a Northeastern University which in a fascinating turn I didn't realize was founded the College was founded by the

YMCA but. Northeastern wants to build the 17 storey dormitory and say you're selling pie that. Tell me about if there's any kind of internal conflict about selling part of your history to make room for this storm. You know for me and for the board of directors who made the decision to do this it is really a natural what we have at the Huntington Avenue 316 honeymoon avenue. We have over 250000 square feet we have. It really is about five buildings that exist in that one location. But more importantly what we're trying to do is we've been this is one thousand twelve. This sale will do a couple of things one that will give us the resources to invest in their facility so we can stay there for the next hundred years in a much more moderate upgrade physically assessable facility to it will provide northeastern with the opportunity to put some of the students in dormitories which has been a major issue in some of those neighborhoods mission here Fenway because those students are taking up some of the housing that others could live in those communities. So and the City made me know supporting this we see it as a win

win. And we think is one is going to do the right thing for the community in the long term. Clearly some of our members and it's a very small percentage of them have some difficulties with that and I respect their passion because they belove the YMCA but we believe the board of directors and our management believe is the right thing to do for the long term viability of that YMCA and its ability to serve many many more people in their community. I want you to tell me a little bit in the time we have left about some of the programs that you've instituted. I know some of you got nutrition but tell me a little bit about we have quite a few programs but I would say what we really are around is three major areas where about youth development healthy living and social responsibility in the areas of youth development we're working hard to ensure that young people have the opportunities to achieve their maximum potential economic. Academically in the area of health and wellness we're looking at working sure we work with childhood obesity issues. We're also working in the in diabetes to help individual have that BTs getting gazin physical activity will help relieve some of that. Their their focus on insulin

and their social responsibility. We teach English as a second language because you know Boston is a noose an immigrant city. And we had several people who come to us annually and we teach them English as a second language. We have a significant job development program at what's called training Inc. Which people put people to work training for careers in finance and administration in insurance and banking. So we have a broad spectrum of programs and services that we are offering gazed at. In addition to what are called a tried and true methods of gym and swim you know we'll never run away from gym and swim with that's about who we are. You talked about our legacy here our legacy in Boston and other communities that we're gauging is about making sure that we provide the best programs and services for those individuals so they can reach their full potential spirit mind and body. That's what we do at day camp programs after school programs here in Washington President and CEO of the YMCA of Greater Boston thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. That's going to do it for us this afternoon. Thank you so much to my guests.

We will be back tomorrow at noon and stay with us now for the Calla Crossley Show coming up next we'll talk about the impact of the economy on Bay State charities the Emily Rooney show is a production of WGBH radio on the web at WGBH dot org. Boston Public Radio I'm Karen Miller. Have a great afternoon.