WGBH Radio; The Emily Rooney Show

From WGBH in Boston this is the show. It's Wednesday June 30th 2010. Emily Rooney on today's show. The FBI has been spying on them for 10 years. Such a battle is about Russians to Cambridge residents are among 10 people arrested this week on charges they spent years in the U.S. working as spies for Russia. Who are these people and what does Russia want from us anyway. And goodbye D.C. Hello tablet. What are you hearing about the future of computers and rising political star Sam Muniz relocating to D.C. after failing. Finding meaningful work here in Boston can finally between takes with Harry Stanley will have all of that and more. Today I'm the Emily Rooney show. But first the news from NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Hurricane Alex isn't

there yet but it's already generating bands of rain coming down on south Texas and northeastern Mexico. Dave Roberts with the National Hurricane Center says conditions are about to get more dangerous. It's going to be a lot of rain with this system a lot of localized flooding is a big large very large very gain and we're looking at in excess of 10 inches possible in some areas. Alex has top winds of 80 miles per hour could intensify into a category 2 storm by the time it makes landfall expected sometime late tonight or tomorrow morning in Mexico about 100 miles south of Brownsville Texas. Strong wind and rain from Alex's outer bands appear to be churning up large lumps of tar on Florida's beaches. The Associated Press reporting residents are seeing the heaviest amounts of weathered petroleum ever seen east of Pensacola. Cleanup efforts have been in full swing ahead of the Fourth of July holiday weekend. A report out today says houses in foreclosure account for nearly a third of the nation's home sales in the first quarter of this year. Details from

NPR's Robert Benincasa. California based RealtyTrac says 31 percent of houses sold were in some stage of foreclosure. That's down a bit from last year's peak of 37 percent. But perhaps more important for lenders and homeowners foreclosed homes continue to sell for much lower prices than those that are not in foreclosure RealtyTrac found that more than a quarter typically comes off the price when a home is in foreclosure. By the time it's finally owned by a bank the discount rises above a third. Company's CEO James the CAHSEE Oh says that with lenders repossessing so many homes in the first half of this year they'll be faced with the task of preventing even more dramatic price reductions throughout the year. Robert Benincasa NPR News. Home refinancing is at an eight month high but the demand to actually buy is way down. Mortgage Bankers Association is reporting purchases fell last week to a nearly 13 year low. New research finds that half of the children born poor in the U.S. will spend most of their childhood in poverty. NPR's Pam Fessler says the report also finds

that the prospects for black children are far worse than they are for white children. Researcher Caroline Radcliffe says 31 percent of white children and 69 percent of black children who are born poor are persistently poor. So basically seven out of 10 black children who are poor birth go on to spend at least half of their childhoods live. And poverty. And that's especially significant because 40 percent of all black children in the U.S. are born poor. The study also finds that those born poor are four more likely to drop out of high school have teen pregnancies and to be poor as adults. Radcliffe says one solution is to target more aid to young vulnerable families to help them escape or avoid poverty. Pam Fessler NPR News Washington. Up 27 points. This is NPR. It's live and it's local. Coming up next two hours of local talk the Emily Rooney show and the Kelly Crossley Show only on WGBH.

Good afternoon you're listening to the Emily Rooney show details about the mysterious life and clandestine doings of the Cambridge couple accused of spying for Russia are now just emerging for one thing. The FBI has been on to Tracie Lee Foley and Donald Howard Heathfield both aliases for 10 years. It's you know straight out of a James Bond double spy thriller. What kind of information were they seeking and what if anything did Russia get out of this. And if President Obama knew all about this did Soviet President Putin know too. I'm going to try to get some of these answers for my next guest John Pike who's a national security analyst with global security dot org by telephone and Kevin Ryan Brigadier General and executive former retired as a brigadier general and executive director for research at the Belfer Center at Harvard's Kennedy School. Welcome. General I mean this this is just too much. The more I read of it the more sort of benign it feels I mean the idea of spying is

incredibly creepy in old world and you know it feels like something from you know the 50s and 60s but it feels like they didn't get much. Well initially on the charge sheets you're right they're being accused primarily of not registering themselves properly as agents it's kind of akin to the arresting Al Capone for tax evasion when we suspected him of much worse. So this is initially this the initial what such thing is can you legally register as an agent. Yeah. If you come over and work for the Russian government or you know you're selling things on behalf of the Russian government that's a very normal procedure. In this case this is the reason that they have been technically arrested but I would expect that more would come out as evidence as is revealed. You know John Pike one of the things that's noticeably absent from from all this is any charge of espionage. I mean is that because they weren't actually sending classified information to Moscow. Why isn't spying.

Well we facto because we don't know because these indictments are basically on your to register as a foreign agent and money laundering. And there's about 50 pages that the stuff we have it on our website and it's an enormous amount of trade craft. Yeah it's an enormous amount of laptop computers and coded messages and secret communications and almost no discussion of the information that they were actually acquiring. Now if you think about it one of these couples was out in Seattle for a while and I don't think that they're going to be getting gossip about the Democratic Party out there. But you could easily imagine that they were acquiring software that would be of interest to the Russian software industry so I think we're basically white Incra the other shoe to drop to find out what it was they were actually collecting. I mean I was interested to read some of the just the methodology of this that the these people often pose as couples they have children. I mean are they a real couple.

Would the children have known. About what their parents did for a living. Well you have to ask if you were in a witness protection program would you tell the kids probably not. That would be bad tradecraft although we do see and study the sort of bad trite craft in the materials that were seized for instance one of the individuals had childhood photographs that included in of the libel of the Soviets. Yeah yeah right. Yes and they had this I love this part of it. They had this you know safe deposit box I mean who the heck has a safe deposit box anyway they did and the FBI or the CIA or whoever cracked into it. You know this awhile ago and the same thing. Kevin why and why would they have waited so long why would they waited 10 years they cracked the safe deposit box back in July of 0 6. Well you know the FBI. Once once you find a spy the first reaction is what kind of damage is going on. And and then once you begin to tame that

then you can begin to correct for that. You can also begin to think about using that spy to send information that's incorrect or you trip back. Well back to the other countries so yeah so yeah it's kind of useful not to move on them and right away and then you suspect that they're not the only one so you're looking for their cohort and I think this is all what the FBI was doing by the way I just if you know I do a lot of my reading on the Russian press too and if you go on the Web today you can see there's a classmate of a chap and one of the conspirators from her high school in Russia on video saying oh yeah we know Anne and she's you know she grew up here and she was a good classmate of Arsenal. So there's just when I just pick up and write what John was saying there was there was some kind of sloppiness here that you wouldn't expect. And it's described to me some of these techniques Stegen

steganography not steganography and really you know grams and how does that work. Well we started our case by Sequoia way of being coding text message. Inside an image you put the image on a Web site somebody else downloads it and then decode that if you have the secret decoder ring. No you cannot. The passage out of the photograph. But if you don't have the secret decoder ring it's improbable that you would even be able to detect that there was a text message hidden in the photograph. One of the new methods that they're using of course is laptop computers. They were frequently go into a bookstore coffeeshop and open up their laptop computer and establish a local y fi network. Somebody from the embassy would Russian embassy would be in a truck across the street and I could pass messages that way in a lot of the discussion in the

indictment goes to the difficulty is that they were having actually getting the stuff to work and one of them had to go back to Russia to pick up a new laptop and they had left the country with a laptop computer come back with a laptop computer of the same brand except that the serial numbers didn't match and when their luggage was searched this fact was discovered at the time of course the FBI didn't do anything because they were still around. You gotta wonder if this couple realized they were under surveillance they must've. I think if they thought they were under surveillance they were to fly which is basically it. What happened. But I decided that Russian spy has decided that there was something not quite right with some contacts that the FBI had my posing as Russian intelligence officers and they finally had to roll up this network because they were right there at all. They're all going to get on an airplane. Well you the country bugout you're talking to John Pike from global security dot org and retired Brigadier General Kevin Ryan I'm

curious to about this. You know they were trying to get seven if they wanted to become sort of this great buzz phrase was sort of a sufficiently Americanized and this this outfit that they were reporting to the SVR the successor to the Soviet KGB. Are they in effect the KGB are they and what is it about you know Americanization stuff that they were you know it seems to me they would be able to get that another way just by living here just by being a legitimate citizen here. Yeah well there's and there's no there's nothing. This is this no one is saying that there are people living here legitimately who are telling them. But in this case and yes PR is essentially the KGB we can think of it but is it San Fran it's one small piece not today I think of the KGB the KGB had about a dozen directorates of the U.S. to be arsed just want to write but for Americans you know all that and you know this was yeah the CIA. Yeah so. So why would

they do this. Primarily because there is a belief at least in some corners that you can't get everything you need to know off of Google and the web. Certainly a lot of the things that are mentioned already here are the kinds of things a lot of people do this analysis for businesses today on the web and so on but but there's another aspect of an illegal's portfolio which is actually doing influence and and to do that you really need to be in the country so there are some advantages to doing this where the question is whether there were those advantages outweigh the disadvantages in today's world. Now John Pike what speculation that this isn't really going to do much damage to U.S. soviet relations but it's got to be some I mean if you think President Obama's pick up the phone and think and said What are you thinking are we doing the same thing over there. Well I hope we're doing the same thing that you said right. That would be the stand to live we were you know I mean that's why we have spy agencies

to spy on people because you know I mean there's certainly an awful lot that you can get through reading the press but if you think about it if you've ever read a newspaper story about a subject that you actually knew something about by the time you get to the article you're going to be hollering at the newspaper for not reporting it accurately or completely. And so I saw in the indictment that that was one of the things that they were hoping these folks would be able to pick up you know little snippets of watercooler gossip that didn't make it into the papers. Whether this was worth the enormous amount of money that was being invested you know is a completely different question. Difference between a plan and a good plan. These people made out well because the FBI was paying for everything their rent everything plus it looks like they held down legitimate jobs and that were that they were making decent money and as well you do have to think though that if these people had been run through the American village Moscow Center to

Americanize them. Well we hear we've got what 10 people over the last two decades while they're not having a graduate every other year they would have to have classes of what a dozen people every year or so of the ten that we've caught there got to be another couple still in the country that have. I don't think so. Do we know how the FBI Kevin Ryan eventually got on that one to this. I don't know. And the thought of me. But they're not going to tell you because that would be telling that would be a lie tradecraft I see and what's the worst that could happen I hate to minimize this but what's the worst that could happen to these people. Well well they if some evidence is rolled out of actual espionage than that that could be life in prison but at the moment it's five years for the existing charge of maybe up to 20 for some money laundering and some of the cases I think. So it's not going to be a case of you know we're going to deport you send you home and well you know that could that could end up being a.

But there's something that's like the bronze non-official cover right there on the NOC list you know what is that again non-official cover. Oh yeah they were here illegally. So they do not have diplomatic immunity and it's not a case that we're just going to be NJ personified non-grata them and kick them out of the country. We would basically hold on to them until the Russians manage to catch some of our non-official cover that will swap on my own. But until then you know I think they're going to be the gray bar hotel the lawyer for the woman anyway who's name who's you know bogus name is at least something fully. She says she's confused as know why she's being held. You think that's possible coming right. Yeah. But none of us know exactly all the reasons why they're being held and she's being held for failure to register as an agent she understands. But yeah I mean that's that is not what everybody says when they first order that's what they say.

I don't know what but they say if they haven't been there that's terrible. Well you know it's a great tale. It is just a great tale and but I think it's just the beginning of the tale I would say I would hope that we're going to we're going to find out a lot more. All right I hope so I hope you're right. John Pike from global security dot org and retired Brigadier General Kevin Ryan from the bell for school at Harvard's Kennedy School. Thanks for joining me. Thank you. All right we're going take a short break and when we return what are you hearing about computers of the future. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show. We'll be right back. A lot. To me. There should. Be. Support for WGBH comes from you and from the New England mobile book fair in Newton New England's independent bookstore. The Book Fair is your school summer reading list headquarters more details online at any book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com and from Skinner auctioneers and appraisers of antiques and fine art

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trusted voices and local conversation with the take away the Diane Rehm Show and the Emily Rooney show explore new voices with us all day long here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. I'm Kelly Crossley. Coming up on the callee Crossley Show Haiti a reality check. From there we fire up the grill with barbecue Steven Wright today had one after the Emily show one eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Hello again you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. What are you hearing about the future of computers at a Wall Street Journal conference earlier this month. Apple CEO Steve Jobs said mobile devices will overtake personal computers as the dominant computing tool for most people.

PCs are going to be like trucks. They're still going to be around. They're still going to have a lot of value. But they're going to be used by one out of X people. And we like to talk about the post-PC era when it really starts to happen. I think it's uncomfortable. Well the comment has generated a lot of chatter in the business and tech press and it got us to thinking about the future of computers will it be goodbye PC Hello tablet. I'm joined here in the studio by Sara Rotman Epps of Forrester Research just led a recent report that found that tablets will indeed surpass net book sales beginning in 20 12 also waiting here in the studio for Hiawatha Bray. Boston Globe technology reporter who's probably listening to this as he's wheeling into the parking lot and back in GBH just now. Sara talk a little bit of what you discovered in this research you did. Sure. Well as you heard with what Steve Jobs was saying there's this big debate going on right now and it's partly about semantics. Do you think it's out of the biz in a PC

the same thing. Sorry I get confused about it. Do you consider a tablet to be a type of PC and why. At forcer research we do consumer consumer survey research and based on what we found in our in our research we do think that tablets are a new type of people. What isn't a PC. What isn't already there. I think you could say for well. All the lines are blurring but a mobile phone even a smartphone. You could say it is not a PC but it is in some ways becoming a computer. Now why isn't it about PC. Well this is all a personal computer something that you know that you tailor to your use. It's a phone but why is it my iPhone a PC and I get that. Well we're seeing that there's this continuum the spectrum of devices that are fitting into consumers lives all the way from the least portable end to smartphones of the most portable and. And what's

happening now is you have the emergence of a new form factors in the middle. So the tablet the i-Pad is carving out a new space somewhere between the smartphone and the laptop. Yeah I mean the whole thing about the iPod though is that it's not a phone. So I mean it's still requiring two devices so if we're moving into the future that is not going to work permanently. Well what surprises us from our data is that consumers actually don't plan on replacing using a tablet to replace other comes to computers in their lives. They're you thinking a bit of their other computer something they'll use in addition to their laptops and even their desktops. I don't buy that. I think eventually it's going to be one device alright Hiawatha Bray has just joined us technology a strong reporter. Oh yeah. Let me tell you this me do this. The traffic out there that's what I thought I came in for you and put your headphones on. It's insane out there. It is well you know what

it is. It's the holiday weekend. Yes. Already in full bore there is the road construction. We're having a little debate here about this I mean I don't understand what a PC is. Everything's a PC if you ask me. But you know this whole thing about whether the tablet is going to replace you know other kinds of communication devices how can it. And that's it's a phone is well I mean people are going to really be coming around to different devices in the future. I think people obviously are carrying around multiple devices now and they are happy to do so although the carrying around part I think is part of the problem. I made that mistake too when I said you know the Kindle isn't going to go anywhere because nobody's going to want to carry it around. I don't think people are carrying it around primarily what they want and then just as an I know what I do I'm the one I've been playing with is the I pad. I don't want to take it with me anywhere I want to snuggle up with it at home. Really that's what it's really good for. It's amazing to have this thing. I'll tell you what I mean because it's replaced your laptop essentially no it hasn't. I don't use it for that purpose. I use it for. I use it for information and entertainment like what. For example Netflix I have fallen in love with the

Netflix app for the i-Pad you can carry it anywhere in your house. Sit down and start watching a movie any time in a man anywhere. Do that and I'm really sad really that's exactly what we're finding in our consumer surveys as well is that the tablet is your more portable computer within the home. Absolutely. It's maybe replacing the laptop that you would use on your living room sofa while you watch TV but it's also expanding computing to new areas of the house. So it's the computer that used to watch TV in bed to read the Wall Street Journal at a kitchen table to listen to the NPR app in the shower have a hellish confession to make I sometimes punch up a movie and take it into the bathroom. See yeah. Now do you watch TV or is that gone. Sometimes yeah. But that's part of what it's good for if you're into Netflix for example the missus and I are both burning our way through all the episodes of 24 that we never say and I don't do it on the on the I don't do that on the i pad but you can times of murder. Not really by the way. All the episodes I just don't want to ruin it for you. They're all exactly the same. No they're not they're exactly.

It's always the outcome. No they're not I was surprised but never mind what well we'll leave that alone. Well you know I'm curious about this because it seems like they were moving to the point where everything is one device including television including a computer including a telephone but I don't I don't hear you saying that. So no that that's not what we find at all and there is definitely a blurring of lines between form factors you know PCs connected to your TV connected to your tablet. And that's definitely happened don't leave out the fact that the TV is now becoming PC. I haven't a Samsung at home a Samsung set and they're one of the first to do this. It runs software you can run programs on it you can turn on Facebook and run it on the TV and that's what is and have a little tag you use the remote it's really a pain to do I don't do it very often. But there are programs that actually run on that tend to be easier initially yes absolutely eventually when they perfect voice controls for example. It'll really become very useful. And that's

happening right now. But what we're finding in fact is that in five years for example consumers will actually be buying and owning more PCs than they are today. So desktops and laptops will be used in new and different ways along with new form factors like the tablet. So to find a PC for me I really don't mean to be a dope about this but it used to be that you know a PC was a home computer that kind of wasn't connected to anything else like a gateway or something like that. Right now Right now there are so many gateways. I think you're right that things are blurring but I guess I don't know why that's a problem I don't think the average person finds it as a problem as know what use is semantics and I don't get what we're talking about that's all I'm just trying to you know get myself in the playing field. Well the one thing I think everybody has to remember is that basically anything that has electrons flowing through it is going to have a microprocessor in it that's the way we're heading. You're going to be able to control virtually everything from it from a digital in a digital manner and as long as you understand that every year fits in the everything and the light switches everything how about your you know you know easy pass I mean.

Yeah well that we already have that. I mean not everything will be on one device. You know why you think what I want to whatever. It's not. She wants my spanking and now she's always soon as I go through the easy pass my computer takes the thing and deduct it from my bank account is like oh you want something interesting to think about you know if your purse is feeling crowded we might find in the future. I don't know how you see in these new flexible displays like the wind HP has been working on that's printed on mylar. Think about that shiny wrapping paper that you might use a Christmas. Well you can print a screen on to that. And so if you think about a future in which that stuff is covering the walls that stuff is covering tables. Then all you'd need to carry with you is your connectivity and your data. Lovely to me everything's covered in mylar for you're not you're not covered carrying your comic to be around either because you're going to have 4G and everything's going to be connected wirelessly that needs to be connected so you will not have to worry about it. Everything that it's not just that everything is going to

computer and it is that they're all going to be talking to each other. What's been developing here because I mean and I'm curious about how quickly a lot of the stuff that we're using now including the i pads the iPhone one of them to be obsolete. What's in the pipeline. I'm so utterly into it it really depends so something like this mylar stuff I'm talking about. HP says it will be 24 to 36 months before that finds itself in an actual product. However tablets have been around since the early 90s even 89 I think was the first commercial tablet for consumers they count the Newton right I mean oh yeah and then you know the Shiba Dyna pad in 1993 never really took off. So just because you can buy it doesn't mean that consumers will. And sometimes it takes a company like Apple and what they're doing with the I've had to create a really compelling experience for consumers but in a sense you have a point because if you look at why the i-Pad in the iPhone have done so well it is precisely

because Apple is condensing what the device does into these easily manageable little programs that allow you to do a particular thing really really well without having to know a blessid thing about how it actually works with a PC or even a Mac. You used to and you still have to know a certain amount about computers. The beauty of these things you just download the. That's what I'm getting is leverage you just have to want to download your. You have these stupid exams that the easy pass app and it's like that's working for me. You know I don't need to have all this other bank account stuff going on. And we think of that as what we call it Curie did computing experience. It's much simpler than the Mac or the PC that you're used to using it's very stripped down. There's no security software you have to install there's no update. Why not. Well it's gotten rid of that option and you can't do it which is interesting because not everybody has I don't know if you know this but for example the Android this is an interesting alternative approach with Google's Android operating system. There is more open. And already Symantec the big

data security company is making anti-virus software for the Android at this point it's not clear anybody is going to need it but at least in theory it's conceivable that somebody could write a dangerous app and put it on these machines. But the chances of that happening are quite small because of the architecture of these phones. So one of the things they're doing is they're just making it easier to go online without constantly looking over your shoulder. You can just not worry about whether you're going to get infected. Talking to Hiawatha Bray Boston Globe technology reporter and Sara Rotman Epps from Forrester Research Well take me take me ten years down the road. There are no newspapers no do no access. Well I mean let's take books for example I was just looking at some new data we have on this. Consumers even those who who use e-books now they like e-books but they still see a place in their life for print. So even five in 10 years I think we'll still see a lot of the analog technology that we have today. It just will be used in different purposes for

different purposes. So your your desktop for example. Right now there's the rise of 3D I'm sure many of your listeners saw Avatar at least heard of it and lots of companies now are coming up with digital cameras that take 3D pictures digital video cameras that take 3-D video and you're going to need some place to view that stuff and edit it so your dust might become. A three day holiday Akka that you'll use for viewing and editing that type of content for example they may be able to get it to the point where you can reliably look at 3D images without having to wear glasses were already so he and then says oh damn I just had a piece over there at Huntington TV I mean you know that they're far away from the 3-D thing until I thought well that's a great article it's not just that each brand of TV using some definite example glass is going to get three different pairs of glasses That's right and each one of them a cost like a hundred bucks you only get one or two with each Sangeeta sick right. But now Nintendo just came out with a version of their little handheld game and it's supposed to offer 3D

without having to wear glasses. And if they can make that happen then yes it's going to take off. All right I want up brae answer. EPS Thank you so much for your run in and thanks so much for being with us. When we continue between takes with Terri Stanley thanks so much. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show.

My next segment but tween takes with Teri Stanley and that's the new music premieres show is that right. It's not right about that is that what we picked on or how did you. I think so and I think it was Madonna but I think that Madonna instrumental version. All right Terry Stan of course is the host and creator of style Boston CEO president you know all those times tonight. David Muir you're our players and I loved it which is perfect timing with the Fourth of July. Absolutely yeah. So it was great actually I found out some really kind of cool tidbits that I didn't know about him but I interviewed him tonight you'll see him on the show and we were in front of the Hatch Shell and they were you know transforming it and getting it all ready for the concert in the fireworks and everything else. So you know he talks about we talk about you know his family and Star Market and how they own story arc and how we OWN Channel 7 right. What a huge philanthropist he is and he just gave five million dollars to Cape Cod Hospital which was amazing and he's such an unassuming guy too but he's got a sense he says has such broadcast and TV knowledge. So anyway so you know we're talking there and he talks about Arthur Fiedler and I asked him I said How do you how did you meet Arthur Fiedler and he said well we were Sparky.

I knew that I didn't know. Oh I didn't know that and I said I said to him I said What is a sparky. You said what is fair there are some things that you just say oh my god I'm telling you in fact I know I'm serious I was like What is that and he said you know it's guys who you know are they follow the fire trucks on fire trucks around and diasters and listen to police scanners and I'm sitting there afraid figuring that he met him through music you know and he turns he turns I mean he goes music he said we never talked about music we talked about music he would have been friends. So I said OK great and then he tells me the story about you know the inside of the roof Storrow Drive do you know that little head OK you know that painted white you know what was painted white and why there were red numbers on the roof. I don't know two years ago there was a huge storm and they had to evacuate everybody from the Hatch Shell and the Esplanade into stardrive tunnel and it was so dark that all the people when they finally came out of the tunnel after the storm was over said oh my god we couldn't see two years ago two years ago. You know they said we couldn't see we couldn't see so they went in and they painted it white in case that happens again so that you can see the roof and then they also put numbers on it so that you can have your location so if you're on your cell phone or whatever you

can say oh I'm near Number one number 10 Yeah. And so I said Oh I never knew. I love going into these interviews. That's all right anyway so he was talking about that but he was also talking about the concert and you know how great it's going to be this year and Toby Keith is headlining and Craig Ferguson is again hosting it and they're going to have a very you know longer display of fireworks this year than they've ever I love the I love the event it's fantastic I'm usually on the Fourth of July but I have to say there's nothing like being there that the TV production is awful I don't know why they haven't been able to pull that off. Is it that I don't know what it is it is on tape and then you know where you are in the thing and suddenly it's live and it is awful. Right. Right infusing Yeah but it is great to be there that was sitting in there being out in a boat and the fireworks don't work on TV that's one thing that does no no I agree I agree. So anyway so that's what he's talking about you know the fireworks display this year is going to be longer than it's ever been before. They've got some new things and they're all synchronized all the synchronized so he went into you know and he went into an elaborate detail about that which we sort of you know. Skipped

and then he talked about Liberty Mutual how important Libby Mitchell is to them and I didn't realize I had the sponsor or the sponsor but the Mueller family sponsored this privately for first of all he puts a lot of his own money into the well he does and he thinks he still does HE DID FOR 27 28 years they spawn they privately funded it tens of thousands so I said to myself hard to get hooked up with Liberty Mutual and he said Ted Kelley called him out of the blue he had never met Kevin Kelly is the CEO of the Liberty Mutual and he called him out of the blue had never talked to him have never met him before and Ted says Listen David he says we've got liberty in our name. You're all about independence he said let's do something together so he said in three weeks with all these lawyers involved and everything else which just goes to show you that if you really want to get something done you can get it done. They became the sponsor and they have been on record for seven years and he is absolutely thrilled. That is fantastic. Yeah. So and when you know we're talking about Arthur Fiedler we're standing in front of the bust and they're going to contest that is unbelievable. Then did you see the nose on the bus. Yeah you know it's all just the other day. Did you do you touch it he said. Touch

everybody touches because you know it's you Ted and his nose coming out and so where the nose is the stone is all smooth. He was joking about what's going look like in 200 years nothing any I'm going to be like the old man in the Meg Zab really when we are all right. So it's not funny how they touch the No the no not the head you know that or head or anything else so I had about 20 intakes with Terry Stanley host creator of style Boston. You brought in this Vanity Fair magazine where you're dying to talk about oh my god love affair of the century and ages of forever and ever it's on believe me read it. No I try to. Today I try to download the thing and it only gave me the preview I couldn't get the whole article you have to read the whole article and the reason I was with Taylor Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton is a new book out called furious love and what a great idea for a book exactly furious love and it's in it revolves around these love letters that Richard Burton wrote to her for years even when they were born even when they were divorced in the last letter that he wrote to her was the night that he died he went upstairs had a headache wrote this letter in his study and then had a cerebral haemorrhage that night and died. So she goes to she's an I was before she was 84 she goes to London she's at his

memorial service she flies back the letters now. Yes absolutely and I know and she. And she's never revealed what's in that letter. No she's not revealing what's in that letter one thing that she did say that he said was listen he said I'm not unhappy he said but my happiest time in my whole entire life was with you. I can remember was he married at the time of his death. Yes he was two. Sally forgot her last name she was a model that he married who he married after he and Elizabeth Taylor divorced for the second time. But why I think that that's so amazing is that the lifestyle that I mean that Michael the lifestyle I was like they led and the pictures are in the back. The lifestyle that they lead Emily is unlike any celebrity couple that Janish that you can even think of the money that they spent the places that they went they were in they were in Mexico they were in Africa they were in Europe. They're everywhere and they used to fly he bought her a note to St. James about a painting on the diamond How about the I don't know how many carat diamond he bought and he was you know what he was bidding against Aristotle Onassis for that diamond and he got it for her. But but

what's really amazing are the letters see the whole article is sprinkled with excerpts from some of these letters. How many letters did you write or I don't know he wrote her over 50 who worship you. Listen there is no life without you listen to that what did he. It's very Shakespearean. It's very well he was a poet you know and he said something to her and I. Actually Oh how about this. My blind eyes are desperately waiting for the sight of you. Cut it out. OK so I'm sitting there I'm reading through this and I'm thinking about you. Yeah exactly. Like oh wait a minute there's a huge disconnect. But it was but it was his prose and you know today I mean he was an incorrigible alcoholic he was there yelling that was really funny but drove him to his dad. It did and that's why she divorced him for the second time but it was the letter writing it was it's reading what he wrote to her and how he spoke to her is really unbelievable because you know you think about it now kids what do they do if they're in a romance they text. Yeah right. They text. There's hardly even any talking. I had to get this where this man completely swept her off of her feet but was so in

thrall with her that he got this you are as distant as Venus and I am tone deaf to the music of the spheres. I am telling you I had to go and not only that it was it was fabulous and so what they did is in Vanity Fair is they use these love letters to tell their story once again to bring him back up to tell him you know talk about all their romance and their and their and their crazy life and their extravagance and the glamour and everything I mean think about celebrities today who's a celebrity couple that we talk about Allen tom tom or Angelina and Brad. No way forget it. All right forget it. They are boring compared to the. Well so anyway so that I would highly recommend that you find out if you know what else you got quickly because I got a jam packed show today some time that Terry Stanley between takes. OK. Cirque du Soleil. We're going to be covering that when they come to Boston they're coming and let them in July 22nd is when it's open to the public in style Boston will be there to cover the going to be big VIP night the first night and they're here from through the month of August down a fan pier. Your favorite place.

Oh yeah there you go. And you ducked me though I know I did I had to go to the movies I did and I can't remember it seriously but they were so that's coming and we're going to cover it and I'll be good looking forward to that. Right turning it around and get the Vanity Fair this is great do it. July 4th read into anything the looting on the beast. All right. Terry will see in a couple weeks. OK great thanks style Bostons Terry standing when we return. Say date so Sam you a leavin town packing his banks to Washington D.C. says he couldn't get work here. How about that. We would hire him. Sam coming up next you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. Eh but. The back. Yard. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Nova Scotia tourism. Twenty five million North Americans can trace their family's roots back to Nova Scotia. Many of whom

have settled in New England. Are you one of them. You can learn more online at Nova Scotia roots dot com. And from New England nurseries. A family business providing gardening enthusiastic with a wide selection of landscape supplies and services for over 100 years. Route 62 West in Bedford online at New England nurseries dot com. And from Mercury Mariner and Mercury Milan. Both offering gas electric hybrid power trains and available sink powered by Microsoft. You can find your New England Lincoln Mercury dealer at by Lincoln Mercury dot com. I'm telling Rossley. Up on the Cali crosses show Haiti an update we'll check in with a group of locals upon their return from the island nation. From there it's a 180 degree turn to barbecue guru Stephen Rockland fire up your grills today had one right after the tsunami when he shot. Only here on the way to 9.7 WGBH Boston NPR station for news and culture. There this summer. Eighty nine point seven wants to remind you of all the places where you can

save using your WGBH member discount card arts foundation of Cape Cod New York with over one hundred fifty participating retailers restaurants museums and local businesses to get a complete list of all the insider savings you can unlock as a WGA member. There's a lot to talk about here in Boston. Political Talk tough environmental top neighborhood top Emily Rooney and Kelley cautiously talking Boston weekdays from noon to 2 on the new one eighty nine point seven. WGBH radio. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show. He's been looking for work since last fall. That's when former Boston city counselor Sam Yoon lost his bid to become mayor of Boston. As you'll recall you know last in our preliminary challenge to former council president Michael Flaherty those two then teamed up against incumbent mayor Tom

Menino with messages like this. Getting a job in city government should be about what you know not who you know. There's too much power concentrated into the office of the mayor. We need more checks and balances in city government. But it was not to be. And Sam you are now I said he says he felt like tainted goods and finding a job was troublesome. So he's leaving town taking a job in Washington D.C. as executive director of the National Alliance of community economic development associations. Sam That sounds. It's a mouthful that sounds awful maybe we're going to change that just that's just killer. I mean come on you don't even look happy about this. Well I mean you know we're going to miss you. We you know we would have thought that you had a potential media to really oh I pre-date that if you say I enjoy doing these I enjoy being on the show as well. Yeah I'm going to miss you I think you're becoming a rising star. I can't believe you just upping and leaving. Yeah it's not help as I can tell it's going to be bittersweet you know because it's a happy said thing. I mean I'm glad we could be employed we have got be employed you know everybody's job you

know talk to me about that was it really did you feel like the doors were shutting for you. I did I did and you know like we are giving names what names and numbers that would be unfair to the friends who were who were helpful to me in being honest with me. I mean people who knew the decision makers and some of the you know opportunities that I thought would be good what kind of things were you looking for what do you want to be in the know are you before you were Boston City Council. You know I come from the nonprofit world yeah. And so you know a lot of you know my friends in the nonprofit world. You know I had the same message and some who were very close to some opportunities that look you know a lot of non-profits have to work with the mayor. Yeah and the fact that you went against him is is is is troublesome. It's a risk. But do you have a bad relationship with the mayor actually I think even has tremendous amount of respect. No I think that's that's exactly right never tried to reach out I you know I requested you know a couple times meetings did you ever have one. No no. And people have tried to help in getting that because I thought that would be a way to easily clear the air and be a public. Yeah yeah yeah

absolutely. I mean my familiarity is another story I mean I can understand why he might have because he'll probably run again another time but but you I mean you were a young councilor had only been on counts for how many terms one or two to four I mean you're probably jumped the gun on this whole mayor thing you know but that's OK. Let us back to give it a try but yeah for the mayor to somehow consider you you know public enemy number one when it seems hardly reasonable. Yeah and you know it was interesting because for me the dilemma was not to kind of poison the well and go off and tell people that that's what's going on because you make people believe that or the if I really step back and was really sober about it put myself in the shoes of some of the people that I've had to work in this city for for a decades or even you know under the term of the mayor. I could see why I might be there to risk even if it's a perception. And you from here. I was I've been in this area since 1993 when she retired as you know I've been here since you know Nineteen seventy six and that doesn't count. I've been a Bostonian proper you know since

2003. But but yeah I'm excited about the opportunity. You know in Washington D.C. What is this thing as I say is absolutely deadly. Yeah joints of Community Economic Development Association this is yet another one of those huge amount of red ink. It's not huge in fact you know it's going to be me and an admin assistant by the end of the summer and what do you do. So every state has an association of CDC's community bellman corporations mass just has one. And these community development corporations need a voice in Washington D.C. because they're so you're a lobbyist or a lobbyist but also working with the state associations to build capacity for their members who are the folks who are doing this work on the ground in communities in rural and urban urban areas so yeah absolutely and about like like what I mean. Well you know one of the things that you know we're hoping for on the ministrations that there be a real partnership between. The federal government and those you know small community Delma corporations on the ground perhaps in the form of a lot of them get money to do housing

that set aside some of that money to boost their operations capacity building set aside 5 percent of them and some of that money to just say hey you know you should go you should have some trainings you should have some you know ways to build you know a strategic plan and things like that because they're you know they're working really hard to fight poverty in an economic downturn they haven't seen in a long time. And they you know in another part of us we have to be able to define their work. Community Development does sound nebulous What is community development so that's another you know challenge that we're going to have which is to say they're in our neighborhood and I said Maurice if I had three in my neighborhood and you know people need to know what they're doing there they're renting a property at affordable rates they're building playgrounds or advocating for transit in their neighborhood so they can have access to jobs downtown. And so they're doing all these things but a lot of them are not being seen or not being recognized. So that's some of the education that I want to do in D.C. who is the Who do you report to the board is composed of the state association directors here in Massachusetts is a

board member and he's essentially my boss as well as a. So he hired you essentially. He as well as a board for somebody in the job now or is it you know it's you know it is the executive director the second day. There's so there's been a transition from their first and they're come from New Jersey North Carolina a well it pays it pays well. You know I mean yeah yeah I know I'm not feeling like I don't know about this. Cheryl Jenks tried this too. You know I've heard that story you heard that heard that story. She's not going to tell us it was awful. Yeah yeah. You were the huge board I know that I was at the Human Rights Human Rights Campaign. Yeah yeah. Really a Gay Lesbian Rights Yes you know my goodness. Yeah. Run out of town like in six months just slit her throat. Just awful. Well my I come from this world so I understand you know the work. You know having done it for you know almost 10 years before meant for city council so. And it's an organization that's building they came with already a huge amount of money you know and a huge kind of like agenda. My purpose is to work with the board members right now and to build that agenda and make something and build

something. I've talked with six of them. You know that's why I'm late to this interview. And I just really respect them and say do you see yourself getting back into public life back into running for something at some point you know when I ran in 2005 it wasn't you know something that I've been plotting and planning for years and I think that's just who I am for better or for worse. You know that if something feels like it's the right thing to do at this moment. And I calculate the risks. I'm a little wiser now. Calculate the risks. You know as best as I can if that's the right thing to do I'll do it. But I never saw myself nor do I see myself right now as as as being defined as a politician. You know politics is a way to make a difference in my community and for my state or country whatever you know then then I'll pursue it if that seems like the best option but for now I'm just really excited about this opportunity to talk about community development because at this time in our in this recession we need to know who's doing that work in our community and why so.

I mean just to speak about your passion for a second I mean you know you talked about kind of the old ways of city hall but I mean what was it that drove you to want to be mayor anyway well what do you think you could have done to make such a big difference change. And that's that's a broad word too but. But the city hall and city hall really needed a change. I feel in the culture in the values in the in the in the policies and procedures and in the vision that that city hall has for what Boston can be I think there was just a lot of unrealized potential in our city that just wasn't being tapped. And in fact there was a culture of fear kind of related to you know what I was experiencing really a culture of fear of Chalon want to alienate America want to you know that's the last thing you want to do if you want to promote your project your campaign your issue. I want to get a building built like determine. Talk about I think what you've read gone too far to Sam. Would you let Dan Shapiro Bill is Bill. I would have and I would have been at the table with him and we would have had the supermodel right in front of us and we would have talked about that shot and it was all a little fake was I don't know what you're

going to new tonight that's right that's right. Yeah yeah I see possibilities you know in everything I know I just have a fundamental faith in people's you know ability to be reasonable and to be honest if you approach them that way but you know for the mayor everything is political Everything is political and that and that pervades you know all the fury around style it's a very volatile office a very old style and it won't last forever. Not a big big cities in America still operate that way. You know Chicago Los Angeles Atlanta it's one after the other it hasn't really changed. Yeah well Chicago is probably the best analog and he's dailies in his fifth term and I mean he made it easier to give it up. Yeah but Los Angeles now you know they have to really have some turnover if that's true there are term limits and that's Bill people who run are the same old same. Yeah yeah yeah I think you know a new urban politics and new city politics Cory Booker I'm a huge admirer of his I get his tweets all the time and he is somebody who is like he came into that job with a mission in Newark Newark the largely the New Jersey wonderful thanks to absolutely absolutely. He's a he was an inspiration for me

he challenged also 16 year incumbent. Lost the first time and came back in four years walked into that office and just doing amazing things and it's just his his very public very public very often missing. Yeah he came as a social activist. Yes you know and that was you know so my mentality to when I first ran. And I think that's a new model I mean I broke Obama in the White House. Yeah. Also is this a new model for political leadership. But you know Boston is and will get you there in Boston. Bostonians were just nervous. I mean to just think gosh you know they they fear something might be taken away from them. I mean what I think there was the nervousness was the condition but the machine was able to kind of tap into that nervousness and garner enough votes you know precinct by precinct ward by Ward you know that there's a three ring binder somewhere in the mayor's campaign that shows by the address by name who vote in the last election and they have the machinery to go out and just get those votes and send an army out and you know but they can tap that you know in this recession that hey you don't want to mess with what's going to think about it.

But Boston has always been sort of blue averse to to change you look what happened. Yeah. You know in the black community with both Dianne Wilkerson and Chuck Turner I mean re-electing I mean and I know he served on the house with you. This is a guy who should have been turned out of office especially this last time around. Yeah. And there he is. Up a valuable public servant's space and a site for what are people really afraid that something's going to happen bad to them. If check current Turner is that represent I think they in the community I think they're able to turn not a blind eye completely but to turn to somebody is motivation because who else is speaking for them who also is like a circle the wagons mentality. Yeah I think there is a lot of that. There's a lot of that even if there's another voice that is also a person of color or person of you know do I think those voices are emerging and you know one kind of comfort that I have in vacating that seat in Michael Flaherty's too is Felix Arroyo and Ana Presley if there's an African-American woman first time in history and a Latino who's an activist and organizer is now

in those seats and I have Michael Ross he has done a heck of a child and I'm very proud of the council he has made. Absolutely I don't know when anticipate it coming from Michael Ross he is huge. He's put himself in mayoral contender ship. Absolutely I would say I would say that and for somebody who has actually come into that seat on his wing. Yes he worked for the mayor and I now to see him go and say I'm going to challenge the mayor and I'm going to be you know the president the council that delivers going because he had you know sort of an immaturity streak there for a while there you know it's not me although you know I was yeah but he was yeah that's right. Really coming really grown into his own. I'm proud of John Connally as well in his second term I think he's demonstrated leadership I'm proud the whole council Yeah I have to say the last six months reading has he really for the I have to say for the first time since I've been here at CNN really you know yeah yeah had their voices heard. Yeah yeah that's right so when he actually did depart it's going to be you're kind of yes I do. Good luck on that one please. Yes it's in Dorchester lovely new torture us to look at. Is it in your house or is it it's a two family and we're on the second and third floor.

It's lovely and it's a neighborhood that has a lot of a lot of assets and we're going to see it you know and it's going to be could very well do you. Falls Church. OK that's going to be our metro is going to be West Falls Church so it's in between where my wife's family my wife's parents live in Fairfax and then in the district so her sister lives in the district so we're going to be we're going to be renting for now. Yeah you know Dorchester place that's the Dorchester is the up and coming I mean a lot of my good friend Jack Carroll just bought Dorchester That's right a lot of value. Yeah yeah. Big bang for your buck there. Sandy has been a pleasure having you and we want you to come back while you're in town this summer we love having you especially on our Friday roundtable So when you're here we will be in touch with you and keep in touch. Maybe we'll call you by phone to find out what's happening with the National Alliance of Community Economic Development Association. All right good luck with that. Thanks Jim for being here. All right and that is it going to do it for us this afternoon. You've been listening to the Emily Rooney show me back tomorrow at noon with a story about the man who left too soon.

Stieg Larsson died well before he knew that his books would become international bestsellers. This editor is going to join us. That plus Jay's career with Dancer Goni and Jared Cohen. Given the scene the Emily Rooney show that Kelly Crossley Show is coming up next. Emily Rooney had a great afternoon.