WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Sue O'Connell. This is the Kelly Crossley Show. In 1970 the U.S. had 400000 people in jail today close to two and a half million are behind bars. One person out of every 100 is in a federal or state penitentiary. And even though the United States has less than 5 percent of the world's population we incarcerate roughly 24 percent of the world's prison population. With so many in jail and an estimated 10 million American cycling in and out of correctional facilities each year. We're clearly having an incarceration crisis. This hour from the county jails to the state penitentiary. We'll look at everything from prisoners rights to prison reform. From there we get a preview of this year's Provincetown International Film Festival. Up next from the big house to the movie house. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying U.S. stocks

are trading sharply lower as investors confront more disappointing numbers on the economy. At last check the Dow was down nearly one hundred eighty points or nearly one and a half percent at eleven thousand eight hundred ninety six with the Nasdaq off about one and a half percent to twenty six thirty eight. The Labor Department reporting that while the Consumer Price Index rose last month at two tenths of a percent. That increase was a slowest in six months. We have details from NPR's Yuki Noguchi. The average American consumer paid more for clothes shelter and cars in May but they're paying less for gas. And the decrease in fuel prices was enough to partially offset the higher cost of other items including food and energy. The overall inflation rate was two tenths of a percent. It was a larger inflationary jump than economists expected. Consumer prices are increasing at much faster annual rates now than they did late last year but most of that volatility in prices has come because of fluctuations in food and energy

costs. Yuki Noguchi NPR News Washington. The Federal Reserve is out with a report that gives us a snapshot of how the manufacturing sector is doing. NPR's Kelly Adams finds that American factories produced more last month than they did in April factory production was up a point four percent in May after dropping half a percent in April. Supply disruptions from the Japanese earthquake and tsunami contributed to the slowdown increased production of business and construction materials helped offset those losses last month. However mild spring weather in many parts of the country caused a drop in utility production. That coupled with manufacturing interruptions from tornadoes in the South caused overall industrial production to remain mostly flat. Kimberly Adams NPR News Washington now worries are mounting over Greece's worsening debt crisis. The dollar rose against the euro and U.S. government bond prices rose as investors look for safer assets. The Taliban are claiming responsibility for a car bombing today in Afghanistan. NPR's Quil

Lawrence reports. At least eight people were killed most of them civilians. Police in peace a province just northeast of Kabul said a Toyota Corolla full of explosives detonated at a security checkpoint. The driver was apparently trying to get close to the provincial government building but blew up his car bomb early when he was discovered a Taliban spokesman said the targets were Afghan and French troops stationed in Pisa. But as with most insurgent attacks the majority of the victims were innocent bystanders. In Wardak province southwest of Kabul a mortar crashed into the ground next to a police compound where the Afghan interior minister and vice president had just addressed new recruits. No one was injured. Quil Lawrence NPR News Kabul. The Dow is down 172 points at eleven thousand nine hundred four. This is NPR. I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show in just a second we're going to talk about the United States prison system this hour and later on we'll be speaking

about the Provincetown Film Festival but right now we're going to check in with Adam Riley political reporter for Greater Boston who is covering the seldom A-C verdict. Adam how you doing what's going on pace to love. Apparently he has been found guilty on seven of nine pounds against him not just the honest services charges which are you know a little squishy legally speaking but an extortion charge. He was found guilty so he is in front of us just a minute remember the former speaker of the Massachusetts House Representative. She's looking at possibly going to jail for up to 20 years. His codefendant Richard Vitale E Who is his good friend and his accountant the guy who a few years back some people remember extended a sort of a $250000 line of credit to Macy an exceptionally favorable rates. She was not found guilty of any of the charges against him the other day. Defendant Richard McDonough a friend of the first two men I mentioned

and a lobbyist at the State House has been found guilty on several counts as well. And what was the reaction in the courtroom and what's the what's the reaction as you see now around the courthouse. Well I hate to tell you that. I actually I think like a lot of other people I didn't expect the verdict to be coming down when it did. I thought I was going to be getting some advance notice I think other people expected at 2:00 so I wasn't there when the verdict was read. My understanding is that the jury related to the fallout of the foreman related to the court. They had a verdict to deliver. Well when Although the media never in the courtroom had gone on a lunch break and then they delivered a verdict something like 10 minutes after that. So I think a lot of people in the media and the public were paying attention were caught by surprise getting stabbed talking with the reporters who were here at the courthouse now waiting for timmy and the others to come out. Make some statements. I wasn't surprised at all that he was found guilty on so many counts

and the reason I think that the tack taken by all three defense lawyers in this case was arguing that the government's case against their clients relied on the testimony of this guy Joe Lally who was a salesman for the software company Cognos to receive millions and millions of dollars in state contracts and that also delivered some payments to Timmy and his friends that were dubious legally. The defense attorneys argued that basically you couldn't find their clients guilty if you believe Joe Ledley who was revealed in court to be just basically a chronic and compulsive liar who has no real meaning to the word truth. The problem with that defense part to me see is that the case against the two co-defendants really did hinge largely on testimony. But to me Steve you know his own chief of staff not to staff his own former spokesman David Greene now testified in court that to me that he had lied to him about his involvement with this software company Cognos gave up on me got Governor

Deval Patrick testified in court that after the Cognos story gains steam in the pages of The Boston Globe that to me a sickly Macy came in and basically said I need you to issue an untruthful statement thing I had no interest in the software company. So to me if he wasn't going to be able to get away with just saying you know don't trust Joe Lowery because he's not a crusty guy and he didn't he didn't you know he took that tech and paid the price. It's also worth noting that none of the three co-defendants took the stand in their own defense and in vicarious case that was apparently the right strategy. But you know it might have been just damaging for them if you look up on his behalf. I think it's pretty damning. Well Adam thank you so much for checking in with us certainly will be covering the story throughout the day at WGBH and in our reports in the news later on. Adam Riley political reporter for WGBH thanks so much. Thanks to following up of course on the news that seldom a C has been found guilty on charges of conspiracy

and extortion and we'll be following that as things develop here at WGBH radio you've tuned into the Kelly Crossley Show. I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly and we were today covering some important issues one that might be more important to people listening to today and that's the issue of life behind bars close to two and a half million people are behind bars and that means that one out of one every 100 people is in a federal or state penitentiary. Even though we only have five percent of the world's population we incarcerate roughly 24 percent of the world's prison population and with so many in jail and an estimated 10 million Americans cycling in and out of correctional facilities each year. Are we having an incarceration crisis and joining me today to talk about everything from prisoners rights to prisoner reform. Our Suffolk County Sheriff Andrew coverall and James Byrne a professor in the Department of Criminal Justice and criminology at UMass Lowell. Welcome to you both. Thanks. You can go ahead and

get in on the conversation here at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. Call us if you've got your own tales of life behind bars what you think prison life is like or what some reforms are that you think should happen. We'd like to talk to 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 Thanks both of you for joining me today. Sheriff you know I think that the question that is on a lot of people's minds and luckily even though these numbers are a bit startling most of us have not been incarcerated. Most of us have not been arrested. Right. But what's it like in the county jail system what's it like when you're behind bars how bad is it. How good is it. It seems like we're always battling these two extreme ideas that either life is cushy and the prisoners get everything or life is awful and terrible and it's basically just an awful terrible place to be.

Well a lot of that is driven by you know media images. There is just a plethora of shows currently that deal with what they talk about dramas or reality shows that deal with either the criminal justice system or prison life and so people's image is driven by that in the movies. I can't really say what's it like. I know I run a county house of correction so I certainly know what it's like there. And I would I wouldn't by no stretch of the imagination characterize life as pleasant. Behind bars you know the cells are 12 feet by seven feet. Yeah probably have a roommate in that cell you probably have a cell mate if you're if you're thinking about your future you're engaging in some positive and productive activities and engaging in some programming. But every second that a person spends behind bars is a second wasted from their lives and many people don't see that now unfortunately there's a very large number of people who should be doing time. And that's the

accountability part that's what's built into our criminal justice system. But what life is like behind bars depends entirely on where you live whether or not you're in state prison versus a county based facility. What the community standard is for incarceration where you are and I'm sure that it varies pretty widely across the country. Professor James Byrne There in is the rub. You know it's at one point we don't want our prisoners I would hope treated poorly but at the other other hand we don't want it to be completely pleasant. As the sheriff so eloquently stated What's society's take on on their view of what life is like behind bars. I think this is in general the public doesn't know it's kind of like lock them up throw away the key. The state prison systems nationwide are very overcrowded and if we didn't want their lives to be pleasant then we've succeeded in terms of our state prison system our county jails are also way over capacity. As I'm

sure I'm sure of could tell you about her specific facility. There are often a hundred fifteen hundred sixty percent of capacity. It's not just sharing a cell with an individual and sharing a common area with 45 50 people and in some facilities in this. These are facilities in Massachusetts as well so I think the overcrowded conditions are a major problem. There's just a report that crossed my desk today that Prisoners Legal Services has proposed a corrections oversight bill but it's House bill 15 59 I'm looking at it right here I think is going to be testimony on it coming up this week. And what they're asking for is some type of correctional oversight within the state of Massachusetts I think that's a good idea. I think we have problems in the state system and we need transparency in terms of exactly what goes on because I agree with Sheriff that the media images can can mis represent things. But also right now because of the the budget crisis we have I think

corrections manager. In a very difficult situation trying to manage correct populations very difficult. Good job. Well fortunately I think right now in terms of County inmate counts I think in Massachusetts County inmate counts are actually down. House of Correction numbers are actually down it's that's because of a combination of things. In some cases depending on what county you're in you're actually seeing people who have essentially worn out their welcome at the county level and are committing more serious crimes with guns and therefore are being indicted and prosecuted and if convicted sent to state prison. But County at the county level is where you see the re-entry program going on in the sheriffs in Massachusetts actually do a very good job with re-entry programming so we can see that we're having an impact on recidivism in that way. The jail numbers tend to be at or exceed capacity which tells you that there are still a significant number of new people entering the system graduating either from the juvenile system into the adult system with arrests or

newly arrested people. But in terms of the people being convicted and sent to the house of correction we're actually seeing a decrease in those numbers. I absolutely agree that it is the function of government to determine with appropriate oversight how what life will be like. And part that's why the programming part is so important in this. Well I want to talk about I know that sheriff brawl you you have some ground breaking. Methods and educational process for inmates at the houses that you oversee. And I was thinking last time I read the report and we had an opportunity to talk how the idea of rehabilitation is almost crazy because some of these folks unfortunately come to you not there is nowhere to rehabilitate them to they already come into you into the houses and in a damaged way and some in some right. So you're tasked with both the punishment part of it as well as the education part of it where some people are coming out getting

skills for the first time and that must be a very delicate balance for you as a sheriff as someone in charge of the punishment part to sort of balance for the inmates and for society. Well if it's it it's interesting because if you start from the proposition that you what you want to do as a society is to prevent as many people as possible from reaching the point where they're arrested convicted and go to jail. Then there needs to be a seismic level shift in resources and sustainability of those resources and what we invest in early on in people's lives. But failing that in India in many ways we have then it becomes the the. The responsibility of Corrections and at the county level that's where you're getting a group of people that are most that have the greatest capacity for change and rehabilitation which is why we focus on it so much mean people. I understand the sentiment of wanting to sort of lock people up and throw away the key because everyone is frustrated with crime but if you actually look at the numbers crime is way down and so it's more the perception of how much crime there is that is driving people sentiment around

that but secondly it doesn't help you to say lock them up and throw away the key because at the county level those are short sentences no more than two and a half years on any single count of a complaint. People are cycling in and out of that system and they live within 5 miles of my facility they live they live within the counties where they're housed. You want them to get out in a better condition looking actively looking for work feeling like they have a better skill set because that makes you safer in your home it makes your car safer it makes your kids safer. So we literally cannot afford and I mean this literally the attitude of locking people up and throwing away the key means that they are not our problem anymore and out of the system out of our societal system forever. Professor we're going to jump to break in just a few minutes but before we do to kind of set the stage for our next segment of conversation what are some of the major issues that you think are facing the prison system today both. Oh the ones that are both on the county and federal level. Well I think you heard some of it. Recidivism reduction certainly is a goal that we want which is really talking about changing the offender population which means we need more treatment programs in both

state and county facilities. We haven't done a good job of providing the types of treatment services that we need in our state prison system. That's Massachusetts and it's nationwide and I think we we need to do more at the county level. It is a challenge at the county level because your pretrial population is saying on average about 23 days and your sentence population on average is staying somewhere a little over six months nationally. So it's hard to set up programming when people are cycling in and out of a system so quickly so the county system this is trickier. The average state prison or nationwide serves a little over two and a half years. So it's easier to think about setting up a long term change strategies within that setting as well. But I think if we go to break one comment I want to make is people focus a lot of reset of Islam and how it's recidivism will vary from one state system to another and you have to be very careful on that. And the reason for that is that if you put low risk offenders in the system because you're over punishing a group of people then your recidivism rate the state is going to be lower because when they come out they're less likely to

have committed. And that's one of the things that is happening in some state systems that have relatively low recidivism rates Oklahoma is an example I was just reading about third lowest recidivism rate in the country. And the reason it's well was because they put offenders in the prison system in Oklahoma. That would be on probation here in Massachusetts. And so there's a greater proportion of low risk offenders in the population state like Massachusetts as it has a recidivism rate I'm looking at numbers here that people consider high 43 percent I think within three years back. But they put in a higher concentration of higher risk offenders so that could be part of the explanation for that. But the bottom line is offender change we want to figure out why these offenders keep coming back into the system again and again. And that's what we really need to focus on focusing less on control and more on change and more on education and treatment and dealing with individual family issues that I think lead people to commit. We're talking about the incarceration crisis with Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea Kerr brawl and

James Byrne a professor in the Department of Criminal Justice in criminology at UMass Lowell. We'd love to have your input on this conversation. What do you think life behind bars is like or what should it be like 8 7 7 3 0 0 0 1 8 9 7 0 is the number to dial. We remind you that we will be covering the guilty verdict on the seldom A-C trial that came down just a little bit ago. We'll be following that up throughout the afternoon. You're listening to us here on eighty nine point seven WGBH and Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley. We'll be right back. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Harvard Vanguard Medical Associates making it easier for patients to be healthy. With 21 locations across Greater Boston Harvard Vanguard welcomes new patients and accepts most insurance Care Made Easy dot work and affiliate of Atreus health and from 10 marks. Students can lose more than two

months of math skills over the summer. Ten marks can help prevent the summer math slide with a personalized intuitive and interactive summer math program for grades three through high school. Info at 10 marks dot com. On the next FRESH AIR The Story of American health care as seen from the perspective of a doctor at an inner city Chicago public hospital. We talk with Dr. David answer about his new memoir County Life Death and Politics at Chicago's Public Hospital. Also Michael Barzan talks about his anthology of romance comics agonizingly joining us this afternoon at two on eighty nine point seven WGBH. This hour of fundraiser free programming is made possible by the thousands of new WGBH sustainers sustaining gifts are broken down into monthly installments to automatically renews. And automatic renewal means more year round reliable support for any 9.7. And that means fewer fundraisers. If more great radio

and less fundraising sounds good to you. Sign on as a sustainer at WGBH dot org. Everybody is born story the world he has seen didn't just get informed he's wrong and he is game by luck. Coming up at 3 o'clock on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell and if you're just tuning in we're talking about the prison system from the county level in Massachusetts to what's working what's failing in our prisons nationwide. I'm joined by Suffolk County Sheriff Andrew Kirk brawl. And James Byrne a professor in the Department of Criminal Justice and criminology at UMass Lowell Please Join Us 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. Sheriff you know it's my daughter's about to finish her elementary school going on to middle school. And I was I was struck by hearing about a couple of the children who were being held back to repeat fifth grade.

And I was remembering when Governor Dean was running for president from Vermont he gave a speech where he said you know any kindergarten teacher can tell you who's going to be a problem who's going to go to jail and whether it's the support systems of the family or the child's behavior in class and the kids that are being kept back are exactly the kids that we saw are in first grade who are going to be a challenge. And as the professor spoke to it earlier there's a whole bunch of stuff that and programs that would be great if they could work toward keeping crime down towards reaching out to these young people in these young families that perhaps are having challenges in the services. But having said that. You know where we are today is what's happening behind bars. And many of the services which I want to talk a little bit more about that you offer. When I hear about them I think boy wouldn't a great if a parenting class was offered to one of these young men or young women when when they first were in high school or when they were in college or where their parents are exactly to their parents.

And at the same time you know I hear grumblings from folks who work within the system saying yeah it's great that the 75 year old guy who comes in and out of the system is taking a parenting class so we can get some good time off. But in the same time you know I'm like well what what big difference is that so maybe some day doesn't mean he will never be a parent because he's 70 but again it's that balance that you have. Well you know that's that really goes to my point that. When it becomes about control in the prison system because we're waiting until we're afraid of people and they are literally having their liberty taken away before we're actually addressing many of these issues. You know prisoners don't really have a constituency so that's difficult to generate sympathy for whatever it is that goes on you have to sort of come from a good government perspective if you want to sort of get anything done. But more importantly when it's not unknown to us by and large why most offenders offend because if you look at the population what they have in common is it's pretty significant. GROSS under education dropping out of high school there are substance abuse issues a lot of undiagnosed mental

illness issues there is mental illness induced simply by trauma based on where people are living and what they're experiencing. There are lots of things that we already know are at the genesis of a lot of criminal activities and things that go on in a child's home things that happen and things that should happen and don't happen inside a child's home. But now what we're seeing because we incarcerate people almost generationally is that you're starting to see. The impact of people who are incarcerated their incarceration on their children so what you might see in a school is a fall off in performance in those early grammar school grades because the parent is gone for a period of time and the absence of that parent and whatever living situation that child is now put into is creating a lot of these issues. And so you're actually starting to see almost a boomerang effect. It's not just affirmatively what happens when there are two parents or one parent not incarcerated raising a child they may be dysfunction in the home but dysfunction literally being caused by the fact of incarceration

on such a large scale. We're going to go to the phones now and take a call from John in Boston John welcome to the galley costly show what's on your mind. Thank you. When you're speaking you all speak and you know what they are actual pipeline aren't those like the woman just started the family and then the school and the largest one is the Department of Youth Services. Well from experience I know that if you have 700 kids in the system of the Department of Youth Services with them when you have those kids touching that system those that go into the home of the corrections in the state prison if you have the statistics the variable in any state prison in this country is at least one of them 70 percent of the learning women in those prisons have come. True that the power of a new do services in the respective space. No use the cost the state body thousand dollars a year on Casa Rigney

and the cost of this big taxpayer oversight I happen million dollars to keep me in prison. I did not Luna skill I had a struggle for some education. Now if we were back to the Department of Youth Services and spent the money then India we would cut our prison population without a doubt across this country at least 50 percent of the nuts are going to vote. That's a good thing. Distantly duction and victims that is a 50 percent reduction in cost in the cost of those people that got. It's just in other words that is that they do not take to consideration we're talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars that could be saved and has applied to me. We need to start saving these kids and saving all this money. Thank you thank you. Thanks for your call John I want to actually jump over to the professor John Byrne and say you know

there there's a there's a first person account of what could be different but as the sheriff said earlier this would be a monumental shift of tax dollars of state laws of focus focusing on younger people on children and on families in order to prevent people from entering the system and in some ways and unfortunately in some states the schools aren't as big moneymakers as some of the federal penitentiaries are. Good point I think we spent 72 billion dollars last year on corrections nationally I was just looking at a Pew Foundation report has been tracking that information. What the caller was referring to was is a. Something that people are talking about around the country which is notion of justice reinvestment. We have to think about where we currently spend our money what percentage of our total criminal justice budget goes to various types of strategies and how it could be kind of reorganized. We could cut the pie differently. And I think that's something that this worth discussing

but in terms of the overall scale of the system I think that's one that this is another part of the whole cost argument that we could make in order to concentrate on offender change. I think we have to reduce the size of our prison population probably by close to 50 percent in the way that you can do that according to the people who looked at the federal and state prison populations where the best way to do it is to put policies and procedures in place number one that that does not. They do not allow technical violators to go back to prison do something else with technical violations in the second. And the big change would be reduced sentences but nonviolent convictions. And specifically take drug offenders out of the corrections system movement to the treatment system where they belong. Professor did that then you'd be talking about reinvesting money into treatment and you'd be able to focus on the quote unquote dangerous people that we're holding because a lot of people in prisons today would not meet that dangerousness

criterion based on their prior offenses three or their sentence. One of the topics that I wanted to address to Professor is is the issue of crime behind bars about violence behind bars especially obviously and in some of the federal penitentiaries and some of the state you have issues of gang violence in and one of the issues that that disturbs me the most is the sort of. Law is a fair attitude that the public has about rape behind bars that it's almost like a punchline to a joke a punchline to every television series that we watch about crime and punishment. And I know that the Boston Globe a few years back did a did a did a report on how some very low level offenders were in a terrible situation of being raped repeatedly. And it's not the sort of punishment that anyone would wish upon these young men. Yet it continues to be something that

just at least in our popular culture is a rite of passage if you are going to be incarcerated. I think that's a good point. You know certainly we the public makes jokes about it particularly with sex offenders. Comedians make jokes about it. Chris Rock had a famous skit that many of the people listening may have heard called a tossed salad man which certainly highlights that this whole notion that. Sexual violence is allowed in prison and we just had a series of hearings and testimony that led to the Prison Rape Elimination Act. And we are now collecting data and looking at this whole issue much more closely now than we did even five years ago. So I think we've made great strides in that area of at least you know talking about it and a lot more transparency in terms of the extent of the number of the still the still arguments known from the how big of a problem sexual violence in prison is and with some people saying that

to us only two to three percent of the population which is not good but that that's what the estimates would suggest in others looking at self-report studies to suggest up to 20 percent of the people. President of victims of physical or sexual assault while in prison. I mean members of the big the big issue besides the obvious crime part of it is that many I remember once collecting books and a lawyer friend of my family said Well I'll give them to the prisoners behind books for prisoners behind books behind bars I think the program is called and I looked at him he said well they are getting out you know and since then that's where my books have gone because whatever happens to someone in in prison or in jail or while they're incarcerated is going to affect how they behave when they get out. I'm wondering if you have any sense of of how widespread at least in our region in our area under your watch the violence behind bars is. Well in terms of sexual violence again this is a this is an area where I

can't I don't know what the numbers are for the state prison system but at the county level. Is the numbers a very small I mean in Suffolk County. Maybe we have less than 5 actual allegations a year and that can be touching to penetration. We have a policy and procedure in place everything is investigated and turned over to the Boston Police Department. Sexual assault unit. But in terms of Preah we actually were selected in Suffolk County as a test site for Priya when they initially came up with the standards and we had them come in and when they literally had us go through and tell them in terms of the standards what could operate practically. You know you can set forth standards but people cant meet them because the just the way the place runs doesn't lend itself to that. So we actually gave them almost a practical operational translation of their standards so that they would actually be able to issue a working document I think its coming out later on this month. So we actually have been working with Priya But you know how you deal with something like prison rape is not you dont deal with that in a vacuum its how

you deal with violence internally and in both staff and inmate behavior internally that really. Is a lot more about setting an overall tone and being very clear about the standards of behavior both for inmates and staff that you have in an institution and of necessity all kinds of violence will be involved in that and to be very clear about your procedure is very clear about how you hold people accountable. Very clear about how you interact with the district attorney's office and other investigative agencies in very transparent around that they say. That seems to be easier to do at the county level at the state and federal level. That seems to be a much much greater challenge. A professor from a layman's point of view and not an expert in the case by any means. It would seem to me that if our prison population is up and is high and our crime rate is low that would mean that we're doing something right even if we kind of back out the nonviolent and the drug offenses.

I'm not sure what percentage of the incarcerated that makes up but what what's what's your take on the snapshot of how effectively we are doing in locking up the right people and keeping our streets safe. I think there's a lot more to crime rates going up and then anything that a formal criminal justice. System I think we get too much of the the credit when it goes down and too much of the blame when it goes back up. I think people have looked at researches that have looked at the link between incarceration and crime rates show that they they don't go up and down together. So at best you could argue that the recent incarceration binge has accounted for about 25 percent of the reduction in the crime rate and those are the people that have probably looked at the most closely. There's other reasons crime is going down. You could point to cultural changes. Some people point to something as simple as changes in immigration policy is a

notion out there called the Latino paradox. It's kind of interesting. And that is that maybe the crime rate reduction is at least partially accounted for by changes in the size of the immigrant population in their lower overall crime rates. Despite the the condition. It was THEIR it and that's the paradox part of the regime change. So after all the absent Harvard professor is the one who's probably talk the most about that. So education in general changes in the culture in terms of dealing with violence. I think that is probably a better explanation. And I think assuming that the incarceration binge is responsible for the reduction in crime I think is. That would be giving us too much credit. So what's the next generation look for for the next generation of incarcerated people what what are some of the major changes that you think moving forward

there are already in jail let's take it from there and not try and solve the problem of them getting there but what do you think of the top things that need to change to keep society safer to help rehabilitate or ability if you will moving forward. Well I think that number encouraged by the fact that this is this is happening on a national level that the notion of. Transitioning people back into their communities and re-entry programming and other kinds of programming is part of the national discussion and it simply has to become part of the fabric of Corrections. There's not a choice anymore between just accountability and nothing else it's got to be you can have accountability and you can have rehabilitation because of the impact that people who are getting out and everybody except who gets the death penalty and life without the possibility of parole is getting out. You've got to look at the impact that they have both on their families and in the neighborhoods where they live and so it's not we we are slowly changing our notion about punishment and punishment only. I

absolutely agree with the professor on the impact of the drug arrests have had in Massachusetts it's very rare for somebody to go to jail out of straight possession of a drug. A lot of times it's possession with intent to distribute. But there is a lot of gray area there around the terms the people who have been incarcerated whose primary driver for their crime even if it's a larceny or some other crime is their drug addiction and we should have been dealing with that very very differently for a very very long period of time. I think if we want to have an impact generationally we have got to start seriously dealing with the people we currently have in custody with an eye toward the impact they're going to have at the day and within within hours of their release from our facilities. Well thank you so much both of you for joining us we've been talking about our prison system locally and nationally. Sheriff Andrew brawl and James Byrne a professor at the Department of Criminal Justice in criminology at UMass Lowell thank you both. Thanks to our caller. Up next a preview of the Provincetown International Film Festival and we'll keep you updated as developments happen in the conviction of seldom A-C on

corruption charges. So you're listening right here to us on the Kelly Crossley Show. I'm Sue O'Connell we're on eighty nine point seven WGBH We'll be right back. With. Little support for WGBH comes from you and from Davis mom Andy Augustine P.S. attorneys at law at Davis mom they make your business their business on the web at Davis mom dot com. D A V I as M A L M dot com. And from Newberry court a full service residential community for persons over the age of 62. Inviting you to visit and learn about their community during the new weekly OPEN HOUSE every Saturday and Sunday from 1:00 to 4:00 PM Newbury CT dot org and from NJ key Joe and friends Spirit Rising. The Grammy Award winner is joined by Josh Groban Dianne Reeves Branford Marsalis and Ezra conic. Don't Miss Angelica key join friends tonight at 9:00 on WGBH too.

A Nebraska cop was hired by an overseas military contractor to investigate human rights abuses. She found her own colleagues were involved in the trafficking of young women. They were actually using the women in brothels having parties using these women and they were also facilitating the trafficking across the borders closing their eyes accepting bribes sex lies and military contractors. Next time on the world. Coming up at 3:00 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. To everyone who supports WGBH NPR and PBS Thank you. And if you've started to renew. WGBH membership in the last year and there's still time to double the impact of your get. Hundreds of companies stand with employees and supporting local nonprofits by offering matching funds. That means you get that if you get your employer might to learn more at WGBH dot org slash matching gifts.

Weekday mornings and afternoons. The Daily Dish brings you great new recipes from award winning shops on eighty nine point seven. Follow up on those dinner ideas cooking tips and more at our comprehensive Wine and Food section online at WGBH dot org. Good afternoon I'm Sue are calling for Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show we're listening to the trailer for the film codependent lesbian space alien in search of same. It's one of the many films that will be showcased at this year's Provincetown International Film found. Bill. That's doable. A lot of alliteration Franks are saying. Joining me to talk us through this year's event is the artistic director Connie white. Connie welcome to. How are you. I'm fine how are you. I'm doing fine it seems we only speak on the radio or in stairways at the Museum of Science. Absolutely and I heard we've been talking. How are you. I'm great.

Good so this is you know the talk a little bit about the history of the film festival because this is not one of those film festivals that's been around for 100 years. It's rare it's pretty fresh it's pretty new and pretty still much evolving as it goes. That's true I mean a province that has been an arts colony for over a hundred years. So there's a big history here. But the festival itself started in 1999. This is our 13th edition and I've been here since the beginning and our first year we came up with with our tagline or kind of our mission which is still making on the edge on the edge of the edge of the world on the edge of artistic on the edge of the United States of America where private jets. Correct. So we pick John Waters to be our inaugural filmmaker on the edge. And since then every year we've had somebody in that position and John has helped us kind of interview them on stage in a special event. And this year we have Darren Aronofsky who made Black Swan in The Wrestler and pie

and. That's kind of our our mission. John Waters sense since his installation as the inaugural filmmaker of the Year award over there on the edge award really has become a fixture in Provincetown and it's hard not to walk down Commercial Street without City seeing him sitting in front of town hall and the filmmaking community has really infused a lot of new fresh energy into this. The artist colony I mean it's it is traditionally been the place 100 years ago as you said that folks went to paint because of the the light of the peninsula and the quietness of the area. Talk a little bit about how you all came to choose this year's filmmaker of the edge what I mean obviously it makes a lot of sense with the films you've listed. But what's the process that goes in and what was the reaction. Well we have been lucky to have John on our advisory board as well as Christine bash on who is a producer of produce Boys Don't

Cry and happiness and men. Any film that you will know under and had begun the angry end. And John and Christine have been on our board since the beginning and have helped us you know with introductions to a lot of their colleagues and people working in the industry and we just have a great list of people who are in touch with that as many people we've invited and talk to over the years and it's gotten to the point now where we're just you know we try to fit them in when when their time is available. Well we're going to talk a little bit more about the festival and how you get involved and how you can go. It's this weekend June 15th through the 19th I'm going to be down there. I know there's still some rooms available it looks like it's going to be a great weekend to be in Provincetown for those listening within the state of Massachusetts. It's just you know what tops an hour and a half from Boston so certainly a lot of fun the website is Province P-town filmfest dot org. We're going to take a listen to another person who is is known for being a Provincetown favorite This is a scene from

the 2010 documentary Norman Mailer the American Let's take a listen. He was a political candidate. A newspaper man. A movie director. And a social critic. You will know that I know but I stand by his wife. Years ago before you were playing on that. But your viands your today your celebration of rage at the hate. This violence is nothing new. Carrying on is a terrible thing. People who write books take as much punishment as prize fighters and one of them has to be a champion. Norman Mailer of course a resident of Provincetown and could often be seen during his lifetime on the west end of P-town getting up in the morning and taking a walk in his famous hat and shorts to go get a cup of coffee so Connie it's sort of fitting that this is one of the movies that you show this year. That's right. It was an unfinished version last year when we thought we were really excited. When you finish it this year so we can have it at the festival.

Talk a little bit too we didn't get to circle back about the codependent lesbian space alien in search of same. You know we love the music because it's so. You know I'm I'm a lesbian but I haven't met any of those types. It's a wonderful film. I saw it at Sundance it was in the evening elections they do the midnight program and it had such wonderful graphics that I said I have to just you know kind of see the beginning of this movie and it was a late time slot which is pretty late for me and I ended up being through the whole thing and adoring It was wonderful work. We're playing it's a night as one of the opening night selections and it will be playing twice again during the festival and all the filmmakers are here running around town on the bicycle. And it's just great as good. I think the title is codependent living basically in the same you know the putting. Personal ads in the paper. Good for them.

Good I'm glad to see someone's finally taking personal ads out to get in the paper. Talk about the selection process and this is a question that that has has really during the last 10 years become more interesting to me every time I get an opportunity to talk to someone at a festival. With everyone having their own hand-held cameras now you know it's every child can make a movie not necessarily a good one but a movie. Do you find yourself being somewhat overwhelmed by submissions or is it is it a good thing that people are making more films. Are you using a criteria where you have to be shown somewhere else before you considered what goes into the mix for putting the schedule together. Well we really I think it's great that lots of people are making movies but it is true that there are a lot that are you know that are not yet ready to be showing their films the tassels that we encourage them to keep working at it. We do get a lot of submissions we get tons of. Missions and there's a process that they get watch through various team of

people with the festival and volunteers and then they kind of move their way up the ladder to the programmers and myself. So there are films that are submitted. There are films that we seek out by going to other festivals as I mentioned I found co-dependant space alien at Sundance. We got to Toronto that by Southwest that sort of thing. And also distributors that have films are coming out the summer fall are often interested in talking with us about playing sneak preview here for films that will be coming out later so there's really a kind of three tiers where we find ourselves. There's also a great a local flavor to some of the selections we're going to play track right now from the 2010 documentary we still live here which is about the Native Americans from southeastern Massachusetts. But no one was there many people don't know who the Wampanoags are until you say well where is it that the pilgrims. I don't think we know with certainty when the last one died but it's probably

more than a century. Maybe as our first native speaker and seven generations. If she's the first there necessarily has to be a second and the third and fourth. Language can come home again. Well. This is a documentary of course Connie that's being shown at the Provincetown film International Film Festival this week and weekend about the Native Americans of course Provincetown as some Americans don't know it was actually the first place that the Pilgrims landed and the interaction between the Pilgrims in the wild became basically set the standard for what happened here in America. This is an important documentary for a number of reasons. It really is and we're really happy that the filmmaker and make peace will be attending the festival. We have four screenings during the festival. There are also some of the subjects from the film will be here. That was a film that was submitted to us through the submission process and we were thrilled when we

saw it and you know we immediately accepted that one. The closing night feature we have which is Master Harold and the boys directed by wanting price was also a film that we came to us through the mission. Yes go ahead. Anyway we were really pleased that that's our closing night film based on the play by us also guard great sounds exciting folks again can can go to the website still make their plans to head down to Provincetown this weekend P-town Film Fest dot org is the place to go to get all the information. Another film that as we mark the 30th anniversary of of AIDS this year which is really very compelling I have not seen the documentary but have heard some sound from it in various spots. We're going to take a listen now to the 2010 documentary we were here. We took a bunch of young men and said I have as much sex as you can have. How much sex with a lot of sex. All of America was feeling very confident. But you can be much more

sexual. And that was OK. 81 was a big year. That is when everything changed. I remember looking in the window of star pharmacy. And there was a Polaroid photograph. Watch out guys for something out there. The first time I heard about AIDS I think it's called the gay cancer. We had friends who were dying right at the beginning. That of course is a clip from we were here a documentary focusing on the arrival and impact of AIDS in San Francisco through five stories Connie Of course you know for those of us who lived through it it's it's still all too current and all too real. But I imagine there's a whole generation of filmgoers to whom this will be news to probably it will feel like history to them it was.

It's an amazing movie to you know very emotional very emotional important. And it also seems in in in in timing with the success of. The milk film from a couple years ago where so many of the 20 somethings really started to understand you know not just gay civil rights but also sort of public involvement and also a special place San Francisco is that's right. Absolutely. Another track we're going to take a listen to in this one looks like a like a fascinating fascinating film is salesman Here's a track from a salesman a nine hundred sixty eight documentary about door to door Bible sales. There are many you know how many people are looking at you or someone you know very well out of your position thinking of times oh Bible partly because I'm trying to let you realize what you are doing for you when you were right. Oh I know I can see

why you want me knowing that you have to. Religion up I want to be of service to what. Now what if one of the things I love about film festivals like this coffee is it's a bit like one of those long New Yorker stories where I can just totally get engulfed in how you know disposable diapers came to be and the selling of Bibles. It really the door to door. I mean there's a whole culture here that watching this film would really invite you into. Oh absolutely just as a film made of course by Albert measles and his brother David measles and Charlotte's weren from 1068 and Albert measles documentarian who made great gardens given shelter you know amazing body of work. We're honoring him this year in our career achievement category and salesman is a film that he selected as his own work that he wanted to make sure we include it. That's great. Now tomorrow night you're doing a really really fun thing which is such I mean I I wish I could be there for it because it sounds like such a great throw down.

It's the drive in at Wellfleet which if you've been to the tip of the Cape you know it's it's just a great thriving drive in one of the few I think left in the state. And you are having a night with John Waters. With all sorts of His great movies including serial mom as well as titles like Psycho in Mommy Dearest I mean Camp fester was well those are titles we've done in the past. Oh I'm sorry then that's OK. What are you doing what are you doing tomorrow night here we are doing the monster movies it's always been better. It's the 25th anniversary of aliens not alien aliens. The sequel with the corny Weaver Yeah and it's like I said the 25th anniversary have a beautiful new print that we're showing at the drive in. And I know how much you care about those prints going. I do I know you do I do at the Brattle and it's a double feature with a new film that's in the festival that we adore called Troll Hunter which is a Norwegian film about you know kind of in the Blair Witch Project sort of camp about

troll hunters in Norway of course. And it'll be a blast I mean you brought up Serial Mom and John Waters. We had we did play that several years ago at the drive in when Kathleen Turner was going toward and she came. Of course the stars and Serial Mom and she was at the drive in with John and it was wonderful she's actually coming back this year as well. Oh great great so you have all sorts of stars dropping by. And it's not just about the films. I mean it is about the films but you have other events that are happening as well you've got the independent film party you've got Friday night at the movies. Obviously you can interact with the honorees at some of the events. So it's just I mean it's a great place it's a great film festival and I can't imagine anything better than the International Film Festival in Provincetown What's your favorite event coming up gani. Oh there don't say the closing party and on Sunday all of them are wonderful. I'm really looking forward to the good evening the conversation with the honorees that that's always you know kind of center piece and it's very special. We have as I mentioned earlier measles and

we'll be in conversation with John Waters a Townhall and then Vera Farmiga who we know from the departed and I mean again ere She's a marvelous actress independent actress she's here as our excellence in acting award and she also directed a film this year called higher ground about the funding of Community Christian fundamentalist community. And she's terrific in it and directs it and. That's another highlight of the festival. Well thank you so much Connie I'll look for you this weekend we might talk. Have some fun and we will. Thanks so much. I've been talking with Connie white the artistic director of the Provincetown International Film Festival it runs today through June 19th to learn more visit P-town filmfest dot org. I'm Sue O'Connell I've been in for Kelly Crossley I'll be back tomorrow you've been listening to the Kelly Crossley Show a production of WGBH.