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I'm callous crossly and this is the Calla Crossley Show once the ugly duckling of the education world community colleges have grown into academia Swan's with everyone from President Obama to Bill and Melinda throwing their support and money behind them. Recently President Obama called on community colleges to produce an additional 5 million graduates within the next 10 years. But with so many of these schools providing job training certificates and serving as stepping stones to universities tabulating graduation rates can be murky. So when it comes to assessing how many students get to don a mortar board and walk away with a diploma. Are these schools at a disadvantage. We'll take a look. From there we get a preview of the Massachusetts women's conference with one of the presenters Dr. Obama. And we wrap it up at the University of New Hampshire professor who is practicing what she teaches saving money by going green. Up next from community colleges to cutting costs. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying the founder of WikiLeaks Julian Assange is behind bars in Britain.

NPR's Philip Reeves says he was remanded into custody by a court in London today hours after his arrest. Assange took center stage today in a drama that's caused fury in the highest corners of power in the United States and beyond. Events moved quickly this morning the 39 year old Australian voluntarily reported to British police who arrested him on a warrant from Sweden concerning allegations of sex related offenses including rape. A few hours later he arrived at a magistrate's court in London to be met by a big crowd of journalists and a throng of supporters who view this case as politically motivated. The court placed him in custody until another hearing in one week. Several prominent figures including the campaigning journalist John Pilger and film director Ken Loach were in court and offered to put up bio a song who denies the Swedish allegations now appears to be gearing up for a long fight against extradition. Philip Reeves NPR News London. Wiki Leaks can't use V.S. anymore the credit card company says it suspended all payments to the website while the group's under investigation.

It's a major setback for WikiLeaks which relies on online donations. Yesterday Swiss authorities closed one of Wikileaks founders bank accounts. U.S. military and civilian leaders are hashing out details of an Afghanistan war review scheduled to be completed by next week. The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan Army General David Petraeus says troops still have a way to go in getting a full handle on the insurgency. Taliban does have still areas in which it has the freedom of movement in some cases still has arguably the momentum. And so therefore there is more work to be done in those areas. The trio speaking in Kabul today if passed by the Congress the tax package worked out between the White House and Republican leaders this week would extend the 2001 and 2003 Bush era tax cuts. More from NPR's John it's t. The deal would reduce the payroll tax rate by two percentage points for over one hundred fifty five million workers.

A worker earning $50000 a year would have a tax savings of a thousand dollars. The largest tax break would be just over $2000. The new tax cut will kick in as President Obama's Making Work Pay tax cut ends. It was part of the big stimulus package and provided $400 annually per worker. But phases out at incomes above $75000 a year for most workers the payroll tax cut would be more generous and could provide added stimulus for the sluggish economy helping to offset its one hundred twenty billion dollar cost. The Social Security trust fund would not suffer a loss because general tax revenues would be used to make up for unpaid payroll taxes. John. NPR News Washington. The Dow is up 54 points at 11000 416 This is NPR. A U.S. official arrived to me on march today the first such visit since that country's recent elections. NPR's Anthony Kuhn reports from Bangkok that it is also the first official visit since the release of opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi from house

arrest Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs Joseph Yoon is due to meet with Foreign Minister Nguyen win in the capital of Naypyidaw before proceeding to Myanmar's largest city Yangon on their He's expected to meet with leaders of minority ethnic groups and opposition political parties. A spokesman for the National League for Democracy has said UN will meet on Friday with Aung San Suu Kyi whom authorities released on November 13th. Analysts believe that the Obama administration may consider adjusting its policy of engagement with me and Maher which is made scant progress. The last U.S. official to visit Myanmar was Assistant Secretary of State Kurt Campbell in May. Anthony Kuhn NPR News Bangkok. Sixty nine years after Japanese war planes bombed Pearl Harbor about 100 survivors are gathering at the base in Hawaii to remember those who were killed. They've travelled from across the country to attend today's memorial ceremony across the harbor from the USS Arizona where the remains of nearly a thousand service members are

in tuned. British Prime Minister David Cameron says there's a chance troops will start being withdrawn from Afghanistan next year. Today he also called for a thorough investigation into Sunday's death of a British service member suspected of being killed by friendly fire. Here's the latest from Wall Street. Dow is up 60 at 11000 for 21 and the Nasdaq is up 19 at 26 14. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Lending Tree providing up to four loan offers from a network of lenders. Learn more at Lending Tree dot com or 800 5 5 5 tree. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Recently President Obama called on community colleges to produce an additional 5 million graduates within the next 10 years.

But with so many community colleges providing work training programs and serving as a stepping stone to four year universities are graduation rates the best way to assess these institutions. Joining me to talk this through are Charles wall president of the Massasoit Community College and Richard case's senior vice president of jobs for the future. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Yes good to be here. THE PRESIDENT Well I'm going to start with you because you wrote an opinion piece for The Patriot Ledger about community colleges being narrowly judged by their graduation rates in fact Massasoit has a 12 percent graduation rate someone listening might say well that's not very good. But you say there's more to that those statistics Explain please right that that 12 percent sounds terrible on the face of it but that is that measure is a narrow slice measure of what we do and we should talk about that at some point but that only covers cover slightly less than 40 percent of the students that we deal with. Students come to community colleges for many reasons. Some come with degrees already some transfer a before they get their degree. But that

12 percent figure it's called the I-pads figure measures only first time full time degree seeking students to come. Now that said we obviously want to improve that as well. But if we can get into the reasons why that 12 percent figure isn't as high as it maybe should be too. Well that's one of the things that you point out is that a lot of people who are using community colleges for steppingstones go on leave Massa So it go on to a four year institution and then they're counted there as graduates of those institutions but not from Mesozoic. Actually they are counted but they're not counted in this I-pads figure that where we're using for the committee calls is because if a student transfers from Massasoit to Bridgewater State University they're not considered first time college students or Bridgewater either so none of us if you will get credit. But what we're talking about goes way beyond who gets credit we're talking about. You know naturally student opportunities. But give me give me a good example that I that I did pull out for your program today.

You know we have community colleges have very distinguished allied health programs nursing programs. Most of the students that get into those selective programs take college courses ahead of time. Now when you look at their graduation rates in two years or in three years it's 85 or 90 percent of those students graduate. Their goal was to get the associate degree in nursing or the degree and radiologic technology and go out and get a good job which they do by the way. So that's just another type of student. What we advocate for among the community colleges are multiple measures with multiple indicators of what we're doing should we be judged. Absolutely. We should not try that alone. By the Not that I'm going to actually raise a lot. Richard case is senior vice president of jobs for the future. Why why are we still continuing to judge community colleges by graduation rates alone and and do you agree with President while that that's that gives you believe that a lot of information. I definitely agree with President wall. It leaves out a lot of information I think it's better to think

about and move towards multiple measures just like when you look at the State of the economy don't just look at one measure. So you want to look at graduation rate definitely because people do come to college whether it's for your college or community college to get the credential that matters in the labor market. But you also want to look at are they transferring. You also want to look at ultimately one like it look at what's happening to them when they get out of school with whatever that whether they have a certificate associate's degree a bachelor's degree what happens to them in the labor market to their earnings. So you want to look at a number of different measures but if you were thinking about a success measure for community colleges you'd want to include completion rate transfer rate and completion rate not just of the associate degrees but also a one year certificate which also can have great value in the labor market. Now why is it important for for us to know what the real story is in terms of what the real measure of success is for community colleges. Is it because community colleges have become increasingly

more important or what Peter cases cases. Well I think the the the reason you want I was Richard Ricci's case is ok wondering a lot. Go your brother. OK. Yes I mean the reason you want to understand completion rates and success rates in a community college is partly it's a public trust. These are public institutions and public dollars whether those are financial aid dollars or whether it's state support goes into it and so for accountability reasons you want to make sure that these institutions are giving people who come to them what they need to succeed when they when they get out so there's there's there's that reason. But there's also if you want to improve which all of these institutions want to do you have to know where your weaknesses are where are people falling out are they falling out because they come in under prepared and when they take a developmental ed course do they succeed in it or do they fail in it if they succeed in it did they continue on to the college courses that they want or did they not so the more you know about. The

trajectory of students in the institutions where they are where they're meeting obstacles to they have real trouble with the first course in a first bio course in a nursing program. And is that where the problem is. Then you can say well let's fix that course or let's fix that sequence but in English if you don't have the data to know what's happening to the students you can't figure out what problem you're trying to fix. Now PRESIDENT Well is it also true that big community colleges are trying to juggle this double mission. So you've mentioned the certificate programs the training programs in nursing and then you're also serving as the stepping stones to four year institutions. And that's you know having a double mission is difficult for any institution but one that's definitely dealing with a population of folks who as Richard cases just said often not yet ready to go to a four year institution you got to do some work there to prepare them for college level work. Is that part of the problem. Well it's an actual line of inquiry. I would rather say a dual mission or double mission I would call our mission comprehensive. We have a comprehensive mission historically

and recently in terms of our responsibilities to our communities what we started out being providing access to students who couldn't otherwise go to college were part of the. Post-World War 2 democratization of higher education a huge accomplishment. But then as we grew and I mean just in size but in in in scope we got more involved with allied health programs in criminal justice and in information technology programs and in a lot of job related programs in the technical fields. I think I believe we can do both. We can be responsible for the open door and and hope helping. As Richard Fraser very aptly helping students succeed at the same time we provide then transfer opportunities and then career opportunities. I think we're doing it. We need to always be be accountable. We we we have full agreement here. In fact we have to be accountable because we enroll the community colleges and roll the

largest number of undergraduates in Massachusetts we enroll more undergraduates than the state universities and UMass combined. So we have a responsibility. I think we can do it both. I know Governor Patrick recently talked about that we should focus on workforce development more would be glad to do that. But I also feel that our mission of providing that access is the crucial foundation of who and what we are in access across provides opportunity. Richard you want to add something. Yeah I want to make one point about kind of going back to the question. Why is it so important to focus on students completing. The course of study that they're starting and the overarching reason is that when you look ahead into the future next decade next two decades the number of jobs in the Massachusetts economy they're going to require post-secondary credentials is only going to grow. And right now we're not producing enough college graduates four year or two year graduates to meet the demand

and that will slow down economic growth over time if we don't increase the number of students who leave their programs in their schools with the credentials that can help them meet employer needs in their communities. So it's a critically important need. Do either of you have any theory as to why the graduation rates are lower here than in some other states. You know we we've discussed why the other reasons behind the statistics but in other states they seem to be higher. Are they counting differently. And I don't put that. I'm not saying that lightly because sometimes that happens. PRESIDENT Well would you have thought on that. That's a challenge I think. You know I think the we have a lot of private institutions in Massachusetts that affect who is going to college. Frankly the community colleges take in more at risk students than I think counterparts in some other states like Illinois or other Midwestern states. So that would be my main explanation. What I would say is those students who are in that definition of i pads the three years

to get the two year degree. A lot of them in Richard alluded to this need to take remedial education. They are working at jobs they have financial pressures. They become part time so either they're not college ready and it takes longer or there are financial pressures of family pressures and if you look at our graduation rates in that category over four five six years then it goes up markedly. But I'd like to keep coming back to what we're looking at in our colleges as completion completion of what should call in completion in yes we should be evaluated on that. I have to say just you know personally I have spoken it has been a graduation speaker at a couple of community colleges and there are no more poignant setting. I mean really heart wrenching because I know what those students have gone through they're older. They are working. They have families. They they're at at risk at every checkpoint you can think of. And to have gotten to the finish line is so powerful for them and those in that moment. So I mean it's we are talking about a different population

in terms of age and where they are in life. And it seems to me that that has to be in somehow in that measurement that has to come through. Well yeah I mean I think the statistics are the dif you are a part time student rather than a full time student. It's more difficult to complete if you are a low income student is opposed to higher income student. It's more difficult if you're a first time first member of your family first generation college goer harder to complete. You know so there are plenty of kind of if you're a single parent hard to complete so there are risk factors that you know correlate with likelihood of success in college and community colleges tend to have students who have big bundles of very difficult risk factors and as you say I'm glad you brought it up. When you go to these graduations and you see what what people have done to juggle family. School work. All kinds of crises with very little margin of error and how they stay after

added the fact that you know the the the three year graduation rates are low. And as President Wall said if you go out six years you could probably you probably get a doubling of that rate it's still low. You know but one thing is we don't actually know what a good community college graduation rate is yet we have to kind of understand more about the population and the programs and all that. But but I think when you when you see what people go through to to succeed it's and it's not just inspiring but it also shows you kind of how important these institutions are because these are students who would never. Start in a four year full time residential institution and without the community college where would they be getting their post-secondary education and training. Now what impact has it been that President Obama speaking of a booster of community colleges. I mean he's been forthright about the president well about how much this isn't it. This community college is an important institution for all the reasons

that we're mentioning here. Is that going to mean tangible kinds or has has it meant tangible kinds of responses from state governments in terms because you know for a long time community colleges were just a step children in the educational system. I've heard that yes. I guess you would know that. Absolutely. We're seeing the effects of it. While the dollar is costly the stimulus money help all public higher ed but while the dollars are not flowing really yet the attention that the president has put on community colleges is most welcome. We see it in a number of areas and certainly the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is is jumping into this with the board of higher educations vision project Commissioner Richard Freeland that we that we have a vision to be the best in the country and we have benchmarks in terms of graduation rates completion rates. Secretary of Education at the federal level Duncan has a task force on measures of

student success. But I believe that the role of the community colleges as accentuated by the president is only going to be help grow and be more beneficial to our Commonwealth and the nation. We're at the front line. Other high rate institutions have their missions. They're all wonderful and important but we're right the front line of opportunity access opportunity working with regional and local employers and workforce development and we want to continue that and yes the more attention put on us comes to us I think the better off we are. Richard would you like to add to that. Yeah I think what's exciting in Massachusetts with the vision project at the state level is the state has committed not just to saying we want to be first in you know first class best in class but they're also setting goals. And again it goes back to the data. If you if you have good data about what's happening in different institutions to the students then you can say in across the state then you can say where do we want

to get to. Where do we need to get to as a state given our economic needs and our economic challenges. And that's what I think the vision project has been able to start to do in Massachusetts. And that you know to Richard free once credit started before the you know President Obama said Oh community colleges I you know are the engine of opportunity. It's something that state leaders understand because they see the role the many different roles that these institutions play in their communities. How many students are projected to enter. Now we know we're talking about getting into the graduation line but just to enter community colleges in the next let's say year really when we talk about yearly You talk about Massachusetts message the last overall figures I have for Fall 2009 and we had ninety eight thousand five hundred thirty one to be exact who entered. The community colleges its over 100000 this year I don't have the exact figure. That doesn't include by the way all those students

came in for a not for credit. Workforce training on the job as well as within the college so we have thousands more that come to us either through their companies or on their own. We expect the are our demand on us in our role to grow. You know in a bad economy people go back to school. If they if they're out of work or they're in a you know since you know underemployed they go back to school and try to say how can I be poised for the recovery to you know better my my chances. So in Massachusetts correct me if I run for president while but I think the enrollments in the past year in the community college system went up 10 percent whereas in the UMass system the four year system was more like two to three percent. Now people are you know running into the community colleges to try to figure out. How to adapt to the new economy. And and I know from this show that there are community colleges adapting to those people. I'm thinking about those midnight classes at Bunker Hill. I mean there's all kinds of

innovative programs to try to attract people who have the kind of life issues that we've discussed here. Absolutely. So bottom line graduation where it's important measure but not the only measure of what the value of a community college. All right. OK. Thank you very much we've been discussing the complexities surrounding community college graduation rates with Charles Wald president of Massasoit Community College and Richard cases senior vice president of jobs for the future. Up next we talk to Dr. Alma Obama about tomorrow's Massachusetts Conference for Women. But first we're taking a break so you can hear how to support the program in the WGBH brings you every day from the Calla Crossley Show to the Emily Rooney show. And fresh air. You're listening to listener supported WGBH eighty nine point seven. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Boston Private Bank and Trust Company. Boston private bank provides private and commercial banking and investment management

and trust services to individuals and businesses. You can learn more by visiting Boston private bank dot com. Today eighty nine point seven WGBH is asking what's your favorite holiday tradition. So I grew up in a Mexico and every Christmas Eve the tradition is that you get your car and you drive around and you look at women Arias which are camels and the lunch sacks over the sand and. They glow They're very pretty. My favorite Christmas tradition is spending time with my family carrying their presents. My favorite holiday tradition is going out on Thanksgiving Eve with my friends from high school. Pass on the tradition of public radio by making an annual tax deductible gift to WGBH. Here's how to make your tax deductible contribution online at WGBH dot org or by calling 8 8 8 8 9 7 9 4 2 4 you'll help eighty nine point seven continue to cover local stories on the Cali Crossley Show and national and international stories through ALL THINGS CONSIDERED

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is Dr. Emma Obama. She's the technical advisor for the sports for social change initiative of CARE USA. And in case you're wondering yes she is related to President Barack Obama. She is the president's half sister. Dr. Obama welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Now your expertise is in sports and girls specifically. And there is an assumption that sports always supports boys that it's important to their growth but it's less so for women. Why is that. I think it I guess it's big. Boy sports seem to be more popular. I mean if you just look at the folks at the World Cup just them by you know it was really a big international event and you know we know that the women's World Cup is coming up in July it's going to be in Germany. But how many people know that much about it in the run up to it six months before it happens and we're not hearing that much about it. So you know there is a big difference in the sport that sports get women's sports internationally

to Doctrove men's sports but we were trying to change that through the work that we're doing you know trying to show that you know girls sports is equally important. And what you're doing is just so our listeners understand is that you're looking at sports as a tool it's beyond physicality of course. Yeah if you're active that's helpful but you're talking about sports really as an empowerment tool for girls. How does that work. Well what are you trying to do is we're using sports. One of the reasons we used sports because when I talk to young people they say oh what about dawn and music and you know and TSA. And one of the things about sports is for one thing it's accessible to all. It's a possibility that everybody can. Because you also work with handicapped mentally and physically handicapped young people they can also do the sport that makes it for that reason we used sport. The other thing is that sports is an opportunity for young people out of the slums and the areas that we work in to play because they don't get an opportunity to play very often because they're

busy helping with household chores and helping also to earn money or look after their siblings to give them an opportunity to to play as well. And that's why we use sports because it's part to spiri. Terry it's fun and it's affordable for the communities that we work in the poor communities that we work in. I've heard you mention this as an inside outside experience but what do you mean by that. What do you mean by that it's actually an inside outside and afterward the experience and the insight experiences because with our program in particular the program or the support act. It should have been embedded but Paul would then program and what we tried to do there is a time to develop the leadership skills of girls and one of the things that we have to do with trying to do that in order for the girls to do you know to be visible in their community to become leaders of their communities is that they need an education. And that's the inside approach meaning that we work with them in such a way that we make sure that they are able to in the classroom become leaders and participate

and be able to assert themselves and have self esteem and confidence. But the outside approach supports that because the outlet approaches the point where we're working with the young people outside of the class of young girls outside of the classroom. And one of the things is the recreation activities which is where the sports comes in and with the sports they able to assert themselves to be aware of their own face be aware of their bodies their position as part of a team the importance of themselves as part of a team. To have a voice to be able to to create themselves because of the sports we don't just do the activity which is participatory. But we also have messaging. So while they're doing the sports of the sports program we also do leadership messaging around that and we use the sports analogy. So if they didn't do well in the sport they didn't win in that team they were in or they did really really well we tried to say well why was the B's and you did that. And they themselves actually run the sessions where they say well I wasn't focused. I wasn't working as a team player. I wasn't really participating I wasn't really hungry enough for it. And we tried to relate that and translate that to real life situations or classroom situations where you say you

know you didn't do very well what was the reason you didn't do well it was because I wasn't concentrating I wasn't participating I wasn't focused. So we really tried to use it as an analogy in a non-threatening and in a safe space where young people can relate easily to it and it gets repeated again and again because if you use sports you have to practice. You have to go back you're in the TV you're part of it for a longer period. And that's why you know we use this inside outside approach. And the after the push is also trying to see what can you do beyond sport. Are you employable. You know what happens after you finish with the sport after you leave school. We try and work on that how do you engage generate income because at the end of the day what we want to achieve is that these young people become responsible active. Back to beating young young adults in their communities that can actually sort of thing themselves and look after themselves financially. Now a lot of our listeners Dr. Obama might be surprised to know that your your brother is quite famous but actually you are known internationally before you was because of your work in Germany and in Kenya where your your

your base is. So I wonder when you come to a conference at like the mass Conference of Women. What do you want those professional women to take away about the work that you're doing. I think the key message that I want the professional women and not even just the professional women because I will be speaking to some young women as well a group of high school students that found out that they're going to be about 300 of them. One of the things that I want to take away with them is that the key thing about any form of development whether you're coming from. Developed world of the you know the developing world is that it's very important. It's the power within you as a girl as a woman and have to be developed that has to be supported. That has to be be strengthened so that you realize that at the end of the day you're the only one that can make your life could change your life could create your destiny. And what we do is care within the program that I work at is that we try to open doors and to hold hands and support the young people that we are working with to that period so that they come out the other end and I'm able to make something of their lives. So that is really the key message is that we don't want to create

dependencies. We want to create independence where young people become able to take care of themselves without having to have the Phoebe always need somebody to do to make it happen. Them creating independence if anyone has read Dreams of My Father that your brother the book that your brother wrote. We know how warmly he felt about first meeting you and your great relationship. I wonder if you feel a little bit like a celebrity now where you are able to have a great platform because your brother is who he is and reach some audiences that you might not have been able to reach before. That is definitely the case. I mean I can't deny that he has opened doors for me tremendously and I get access to a lot of people I get invited to many places that I normally would have been invited to and I'm forever grateful for that. But at the same time I think that I have to be realistic about it. So every time I do get into the spaces that the doors that he has opened for me I am very very aware of the fact that one time through that door I really have to create my own

credibility that I really have to make it clear about what I'm doing and the value of me as an individual not just the stuff my brother and that is really key for me because you know I always say it's great to have him having achieved what he has and we're very very proud of him. But at the end of the day you know that is just for a period of time and the work I'm trying to do is give it. I want to make sure that I can continue this. You know it's not just four years eight years but even 10 years you know 20 years down the line you know because of the fact that people believe in what I'm doing. So he opens the doors but at the end of the day I have to perform and I'm very aware of that. Well. I think I think you'll be performing pretty well tomorrow puts a message to its conference for women. Thank you so much for speaking with us we've been talking about innovative initiatives afoot to promote social change. And I've been speaking with Dr. Al Obama. She's the technical adviser for the sports for social change initiative of CARE USA and she'll be speaking tomorrow at the Massachusetts conference for women to learn more visit our website or log on to a

conference for women dot org. Coming up we'll meet a professor who furnished her entire home for only $1000 using the principles of conservation and going green. But first we're taking a break so you can hear how to support the programming that WGBH brings you every day from the Calla Crossley Show to the Emily Rooney show and fresh air. You're listening to listener support at WGBH. Eighty nine point seven. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Boston Private Bank and Trust Company. Committed to helping successful individuals and businesses accumulate preserve and grow their wealth. You can learn more at Boston private bank dot com. Hi this is Steve Inskeep with MORNING EDITION from NPR News I'd like to tell you about one of my family's favorite holiday traditions. Every November approximately one minute after

Thanksgiving we go out and cut down a Christmas tree. We want to be there for the whole month or whatever it is until Christmas and usually several weeks afterward we go out to an orchard in Maryland no matter what the weather will get out there right after Thanksgiving. As soon as we possibly can and we're out in a field sawing down a Christmas tree or in more recent years because I have a small child maybe picking one off the lot they've sought for us to get simpler. I've noticed something over the years as we've picked these trees they've grown larger. I've been less and less able to persuade my family that a smaller tree would be much easier to handle in the trees get bigger and bigger until they're about to touch the roof. Still I love that tradition. Now you have a chance to begin a new tradition right here on WGBH by becoming a member of this public radio station and supporting what you hear. Start a tradition by calling 8 8 8 8 9 7 9 4 2 4 or give securely on line at WGBH dot org

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can count on your ongoing support. You can count on 9.7 for more uninterrupted program. Less fund raising more WGBH call 8 8 8 8 9 7 9 4 2 4. Or give online at WGBH dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. My guest Kelly Cullen is a professor of resource economics and development at the University of New Hampshire and she is someone who practices what she teaches. Recently she moved into a new home which she furnished for a total of one thousand dollars. That's right one thousand dollars by following the principles of conservation. Kelly Cullen welcome. Thank you it's an honor to be here. We got up again. Why did you do this. Well I was moving into a home I recently purchased and I didn't have very many belongings. I knew I'd have to get many of my things secondhand off of Craigslist

or yard sales. And I thought it would be very interesting to see if I could go all the way and not bring a single new item across my threshold. OK so how did you start what did you have already and what did you add. Oh gosh I had a recliner and a kitchen table that I had everything else. OK. So all right so you're faced with filling all your rooms. You mentioned Craigslist did you go there first. Craigslist is a great place and yes I did go there first and another store that we have here in New Hampshire in Dover and I'm sure they're there all over the country restore which is a store sort of like the Salvation Army or Goodwill only it's home improvement items so people who have remodeled kitchens and bathrooms donate their old cabinets and bathtubs. And so I couldn't walk out of that store without something great. You know there's a new trend in homes called Tiny Houses So do you have a tiny owl's. Actually it's funny you should bring that up my house is a pretty good size it's 800 square feet but I've

taken the ground floor and converted it into an apartment so I do live in less than a thousand square feet and that's an important conservation principle too. All right. So what did you think is was most important in beginning this effort. You know so often I listen to those people who clip coupons for example and it seems to be overwhelming but one of the things that they say is you really just have to get organized and then it really isn't so I wonder did you have some organizational strategy or are you just sort of went in many directions. OK. I wish I had an organizational strategy. You know being a single mother with a toddler it was basically a matter of will it fit. Yes or No and I would just pick it up and hit something that fit in the house. OK so now I know a lot of people are listening thinking great I can furnish my whole house with wherever she went to with second hand kinds of items. But it would be the chair with the hole in the middle you know the couch that slumps over to one side. I mean what kind of stuff. You get.

Oh well my best Fine was a Lazy-Boy couch that I think retails for about four or five thousand dollars new and it was just a few hundred dollars off of Craigslist and it was in pristine new like condition. So definitely looking at the pictures in Craigslist and making sure I wasn't buying something that was filthy and falling apart. And I also used my friends and family extensively. I know that's difficult for many of us to do to ask for help but I made it known to all my friends and family that I was going to have a reverse yard sale and if they had any unwanted items I would pay them for them. Oh smart one. No one would take any money from me but everyone universally was glad to clean out their basements and attics and get their kitchen drawer space back. I have to say I am in the midst of doing this and I am with you I just I don't think I've spread out the news as widely as you have. If you maybe your friends did and you did so that's I think that's the key. Was the couch the best thing that you got Pro. Probably the best thing I got was a very high end crib for $50 off

of Craigslist. Wow OK that's that's that's really good. And that did take extra effort I did have to search the internet make sure there were no recalls on that particular model. But that was definitely the best deal. So you know there are trends now you probably know since you are a professor of resource economics and development at the University of New Hampshire and my guest is Kelly Cullen that people are going back to layaway these are sort of old fashioned or they were thought to be old fashioned where you you don't put anything on credit you put the item aside you put a little bit down and you come back and pay it all off and you own it. You know the second hand shops are very popular now consignment stores are back in vogue. Do you see what you've done here is part of a whole trend or just something that you just felt you had to do in the moment. While I certainly hope it's part of a new trend as some of the concepts that I teach in class include lifecycle cost analysis and economic impact analysis and buying things that are used have such an important impact on our economy

so for example I could have gone to a big box store and bought all new furniture that was made halfway around the world and with a tremendous natural resources being extracted and substandard working conditions for the people who made the items and then have them shipped halfway around the world using tremendous amounts of fossil fuels. And for every dollar I would spend to purchase something like that maybe a dollar nine would stay in the local economy. Where is it people purchase things that are made locally or purchased locally. If they come from a local store or a local person. Studies have shown that two dollars or more could stay in the local economy for every dollar that's spent. So I wanted to maximize my economic impact and put money in the pockets of my neighbors rather than have the money leave the economy. I also was interested in the lifecycle cost analysis. In other words what does it really cost to own something. When we look at a lifecycle cost analysis we look at what it costs for an item to be made

shipped used and then disposed of so we used to look at Cradle to Grave costs. And now we're looking at Cradle to Cradle cost so what does it cost to manufacture the product use it and then recycle it. So I try to encourage that Cradle to Cradle lifecycle use of items. Now you're not just a person who is you know doing this as an individual I mean you're teaching these kinds of principles change you're teaching your own personal effort here. Well that's interesting I do teach these principles and I think. Every once in a while I would stop and say boy I should really try that myself. And so I think that yes I do bring some examples into class but mostly just the evolving area of green realestate has taught me a great deal and learning tricks and tips to implement in my own life I've probably learned more from the class and I've brought in. I want to experience one of the things that you mention that you also did was Mom

swaps and you from Mom clubs where you brought clothes and toys and then the moms would switch and it's all free. I got to tell you I do that with my women friends. And we've been doing that now for the last three years and it is so fun because you're shopping in six to 10 closets. It's the greatest thing that is a fantastic resource in almost every town in the area has a Moms Club and you can find them on Meetup dot com or big tent dot com or just doing a internet search and a few times a year these moms clubs will have clothing and toy swaps that make so much sense because the kids are out of their clothes in toys in a matter of weeks it seems. So we have traded maternity clothes and and other things as well. Well my women friends are just trading great clothes and jewelry and bags and I'm carrying one today that I got from a swap and it's fabulous. So I am a really big fan of this of this business I have to tell you right you're recycling too. That's exactly right.

Here's a question. Is it. Is there less stigma now that used to be kind of a you might do all the stuff that you did here but you wouldn't tell anybody. Is it your sense that it's changed now. Well I have heard a few comments about do you live in a junkyard or oh you have to watch out for those bed bugs. I'm hoping the stigma is going away. I know I was brought up in this manner back in the 70s especially during the energy crises and it was probably in vogue back then and it's fallen out of fashion and now that we're in a recession it's probably coming back into fashion again and people hopefully don't think so badly about it. I think this is the new normal. Kelly Kelly I actually do too. All right well thank you so much. We have been talking about saving green by going green with Kelly Cullen a professor of resource economics and development at the University of New Hampshire University to learn more about her home renovations. You can visit our website or log on to her blog. Kelley goes green dot blogspot dot com and go to our Facebook page the fan page

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