Harvard Book Store; WGBH Forum Network; V.S. Naipaul: The Masque of Africa

We won. My name is Rachel Cass and on behalf of Harvard bookstore It is my pleasure to welcome you to this evening's conversation with PSNI Paul prolific writer of fiction and nonfiction and author of the new book The Mask of Africa. Glimpses of African belief. This evening's event is one of many Harvard bookstores hosting this fall. Next week we're excited to be hosting a panel discussion on this year's 25th anniversary edition of The Best American Essays series editor Robert will be joined by current and former contributors John Summers Lauren Slater and Gerald Walker here at the Brattle Theater next Tuesday at 6:00 pm. And $5 tickets are on sale through Harvard bookstore. We also still have some tickets left for our event next Thursday with acclaimed neurologist Oliver Sacks. He'll be discussing his new book The Mind's Eye in conversation with editor Cullen Murphy. At First Parish Church at 7:00 p.m. next Thursday and $5 tickets are on sale for that as well. We also have tickets going on sale Monday for events

in November with Edwidge Danticat and Salomon Rushdie. So you can visit us online at Harvard dot com slash events for more details. Excuse me. Sorry. Moderating this evening's discussion after the reading will be George and Mr Andres spread his undergraduate years here at Harvard before completing his graduate studies at Yale University. He is now vice president and a senior editor at Alford taken up where he has worked for nearly 20 years and where he has been vs nigh Paul's editor for the past 17. And now it's my pleasure to introduce V.S. Naipaul PSNI Paul was born in Trinidad and spent his university years in England at Oxford University. He has been a writer by profession his entire life and his place between societies has allowed him to explore the borders between colonialism and post-colonialism in both his fiction and nonfiction. His writings have ranged from fiction to travel literature to meditations on the art of writing and as a body of work they earned him the Nobel Prize for

Literature in 2001. His newest book The Mask of Africa is part travel writing part cultural history exploring the ways belief in ancient religion modern religion and political ideology has shaped civilization across the African continent. A starred review and Publisher's Weekly notes ever fair minded so overly reflective and conciliatory. Now Paul offers his sage observations in the hope that by learning more we accept greater. Following this evening's reading and conversation we will have time for questions from the audience that you submitted earlier followed by a signing here at the front of the hall. We have copies of the mask of Africa for sale at the book table at the back and the signing line will form down in this aisle here to my right and your left. Please note that the signing this evening is limited to a copy of the mask of Africa and up to two other titles and we're doing this this evening for just for time sake. I'd also like to take this opportunity to

thank anyone who purchases a book here this evening by doing so you're supporting a local independent bookstore and ensuring the future of great events like this one here in Harvard Square. And finally one more note of business. Ask if you could please take this moment to turn off or silence any cell phones or elect other electronic devices you may have with you. So now I'll pass the floor over to our speaker for this evening and please join me in welcoming George Andre you with the asinine Paul. Thank you. In. Oh. One of the things I explored in this book

was the African idea of a niche. It's explained in this piece I'm going to read my informant you will be introduced to him and you'll say you will you'll get an idea of how the writing was how the facts arrived at and the effects. Get a lawyer and an academic. A former dean of the University of gobble said the new religions Islam and Christianity are just off the top. Inside is the forest and I should have told you that. This section comes from Kabul Africa

in another country Russia China had said. We decided to put a chicken Mystikal to imprecise. Someone tried to cover up for a backward country but Russia tango wasn't like that and didn't gobble his Reds had meaning gumbo as big as Britain an area with a population of less than two minutes was an equitorial was that of River Forest. It was hot steamed it was committed from the air as you came into the airport. The shiny river estuary and sea seemed about to overwhelm everything. The forest near the capture of the second tree plantings of the spoke of each little

the true forest prior to tight the chuff to desire and greed use of the paid this year became here to the cloud shadows didn't fall flat. Yeah that's on the sea unevenly and the jagged up and down shadows. Tree of Knowledge of the contour and bit of the forest. The French are unveiling They staked out their territory in the 18 foot just 30 years after their defeat of the Franco-Prussian War. They felt they didn't have the resources for an enterprise. They wanted to call the whole expensive business off. They actually sent a ship to take the people on the mission that

is refused to leave. Now the colonies survived river traffic. The great friendships have at least started with the river. Shifting to a tributary and then continuing on to that end was within four days of sighting the mighty Congo River with the establishment of the colony. There began the logging the cutting down of the primal forest. It has never stopped. And yet after more than a century it doesn't really show. Perhaps it will soon. Thirty year permits have been granted to the Chinese the Japanese the ruthless and better equipped than the people who went before and at the end of that ISIS's big patches of

desert. An international expert says the very show 30 percent of the forests of the centuries of governing is designed for the religious. Oh the good news for the cynics it is of the maybe some kind of international action some form of subsidy perhaps but would make it worthwhile for the guy bunnies to leave the forest standing in the meantime even as the areas of loss the forests of God still one of the great sites of the Tangata Denio an attractive man and his foot was of mixed ancestry. It's his job to suggest it. His father was French his mother Africa. He was

educated in government in Paris but like many people of mixed ancestry he appeared to be embracing the African side of his inheritance. He didn't speak a great deal about his father and he had mad an African from the Ivory Coast. When he first came to see me. It was the end of his university. He was a very busy man. And he was in his university a grid double breasted suit he was well relaxed to text. He came with the children and was in full dress in a lot of West African decorated at the back. This kind of God was not governing. As I imagined he was very good in tribute to his ivory. I thought the gray suit became him better. When he was going to school.

God was rich enough to be a welfare state. His parents as he said had to pay only for the school. Everything else was free. There's even a pocket money for the children when they got to the second stage. Every Wednesday the children lined up for a cream tablet and look to the kidney. Even the university education in Paris is free. I ran across such anger mattered in Paris. The government paid the guidebook government paid for his advice fed to God even though she was on the Ivory Coast. He was a lawyer by profession and thought of himself as a poet political scientist of the University of God. He also taught political anthropology. It was through these latter studies no doubt but he came to his for if you can't a

standing of the place of the forest in the governor and it was like that his mother was a civil servant and he was born in a hospital that. When he was three he was taken to the forest. It was a great opportunity to learn the ways of the forest. But he was too young to see it like that. The forest was frightening just frightening even though the family house. They have a generator in the forest. Night fall very quickly. It is dark by seven eight you go to Steve and you wake up at five. The darkness is to understand the people of God. You have to understand the forest. Also Tonga said when darkness comes to the forest there is no road. But at night there are

different sounds of noises that come from animals hunting. The night plus the noises mentality because people think everything is the forest thunder isn't just fun as it is it is the voice of God. Try to understand that in our village the most terrifying creatures we are frightened of because it is a manifestation of if you're out walking and you see and it is a bad thing. This country is a specific place to most of the river and even if we take it we will get nowhere because of the water and the conditions of the roads. It is a primeval there. The forest fires break out all of it. There's a

place here which you should go and see it. It is heaven and others and you will see elephants from the same place. You will see with dolphins of the sea where you see that place you learn to stand by I say the land was not meant for humans. It is for the US it is very hard to survive in the forest. You cannot be here. You might not have noticed it but we have no castle. Put these things together and you will understand why this country which is half the size of France has a small population. But there is a sleeping sickness. And the hot climate. The French also target said five engineers the other will never build roads. Those two Wish written too much

water it washed everything away. The French concentrated air travel. The first river it was built in 1981 by independent gumbo. It was expensive and it was done against the advice of the world backed by US for us to tango. What is it like physically in the forest he said with extraordinary passion. It is like a war. At 50 feet you cannot see it as it is dense and thick. Your vision is diluted by the forest and every one of us of the phone is say to give you this light was not made for humans. You have to fight to survive. You don't know it will get you even in the river. It could be a croc a water snake or something living for God knows what else is there. I asked him how does this affect your belief.

He said We feel that everything has life. Even trees. There's a mystical tree here a ridge where we go to the forest. We talk to it. Problems. We also commission to cut its brother Joe Buck every channel that we're taking it's a buck cutting it. You must treat all tribes have to chip in and that totem is taboo for us that they can never kill or harm that Toto. They can never hunted. It can be a crocodile a parrot a monkey anything forgive me just I just picked this. Because the conditions of life are so everybody believes in the

forest and in the principle of energy that the forest exemplifies this is the principle that keeps people good. To lose energy is to fade away. To revive is to get new energy from some souls trying to save every living thing is energy. Every one of us is like a best tree version of the world. Even the animals are better. That is why we believe there is no such thing as a natural death. If someone dies in the family we know that someone has taken his energy to do that you have to kill the victim be it man or you kill them take the energy. You also go to the witch doctor to take someones energy that is why it sometimes happens that people feel they have to do a ritual sacrifice. We

had a Metra DeNiro society. We take our mother's name and this brother is the big man in the family. He's super. But if and if you dies of the family people suspect they think he wanted his nephews and Russell trying because first experience of the supernatural being to be overwhelming this of the photos occurred when he was 5. It was his grandmother. A traditional village. She says he'd go there for his circumcision right. That was imperative. A rite of passage to manhood whatever form a religion a Christian religion whatever form of the religion the P-5 of the process professed there were these old African but had to be perhaps of more pressing than the

former. One day during this visit to his grandmother's village eventers his mother to a plantation. Something much smaller than the English would suggest only a family a lot and a vegetable patch. His mother was not familiar with it. Going back to the house they became lost. They came to a clearing. It was a cemetery but they didn't. There they saw something very strange. Four monkeys sitting with a red light as their photos read to supply food coloring and got only three colors a new red black and white if it you do they found their way back to the house. His mother to use what they had seen. Villagers said what they see and what not monkeys but Jewess of such anger

said I wanted to get away from that. But the supernatural began to force him. A long time afterwards he went to his mother's village with an American friend the son of a foreign friend of his parents. This friend was prospecting for when they got to the village. A man two of them not a through richer or Anyway plute street that reckoned by the village spiritual Jinn lived it and didn't like the stream to be produced. The American said but he just said with black magic and nonsense. And to prove his point he spat in the street. Rasa tangan said ten minutes there was no water and there was a hue and cry. The video was up in arms. We had to do a lot through the local traditional man

to placate the stupid. We spent a lot of money. But after many ceremonies or rituals the water came back just as quickly as it did. In spite of his and his parents education and there's a chicken and in spite of his fierce rationality in other fields Ross the tango had become a believer in the magic of the thought. Unlike other believe had many stories to prove his point he said there is another gene of this sort in the famous of course as the size of the house. This region elaborated lived in the river. You needed to ferry to cross that river. Now the government decided to build the bridge. The people in the area of all the engineers about the gin and drove

the shit out of the gym sufficient for the engineers who would touch just as often. Every day people became very frightened and even the engineers thought they should stop. They said they would bring an exorcist along with the witchdoctor duplicate. They went abroad to traditional doctor but he performed many rituals and they were finally allowed to build the bridge. I believe these photos. A link to the psyche of people even if they live in the city. That is one reason why the American evangelical churches have been so successful. They also invoked it to remove the devil. This is like what we do when you go to the witch doctor to remove the principle of the common ground is the spirit.

I asked him if he could define dilution of the forest more closely. He said in a precise academic way we cannot call it a religion it is a set of beliefs. We don't pray to God in our understanding. God is not accessible to humans it and he meant the idea of God has many other problems and has no info or disbelief. The organic world was like a pyramid. The first tango said to the second is that of the trees of the floor of the third at the end of the Fourth of human beings. It would have sounded like a version of the EF of the beats and shade of

being. But soon became clear that he was talking about was a look he said into human beings you have visions. Sure rudeness to Richard is stronger than the midget who used to blind lead like the children. That's ridiculous strong because they're about to go to a new place. Sort of a strong because they have just gotten from the players that still have the sight they can sense even if they have an open mind. Sometimes they cry because they see too much and then you have to take them to a strong tradition of you please a stood out there for it to stop the site but you have to be very careful because too much of the story can turn the child into an idiot. The loss of Jagger

said they're special because they have power. They're close to the ancestors Ovi ancestors can intercede with God you have to keep the bones and skulls of your ancestor and feed it to talk to it when you're in trouble. This is also targeting stuff to it. So this matches at least he was not talking with the distance of the anthropologist. He said Before leaving the village I grew and put alcohol and food on my mother's grave and my grandfather was great. I asked whether there were other ways of worshipping the sister. You said every family has an who can talk to the end sister. There is one man in every family chosen for the job. They said to keep the book the way to worship is through initiation

initiation is a fundamental right and practice. I have heard much about initiation for Virgin Gumbel talks about it. It requires a must all night 7 with dancing and drumming and eating the Bitter Root of a hallucinogenic plant to the right a secret and even at the end of my time in Kabul I didn't feel I'd begun to understand the idea or importance of initiation. I want to know where they do this ritual of ordering the answer. There's also contained the idea of virtue. The idea of the good life. Said new the as just as if only to provide the answers to your problems and give you what you want about initiation he said

you have no say in the village or its matters until you initiated. To be recognized as a man you have to be circumcised in the village and that is such as you take the child is for skin buried in the ground. Then your plan to build a tree or suck. This is the boys. You watch it grow. But it gives its first fruit. There's a big but just a bit of a sexual symbol of the boy's manhood the boy the first of the rest of the fruit is rubbed his body. No we wouldn't see that. I asked him Are you saying that if you follow the various rituals you need not be afraid of the forest. He said you remain afraid initiation ritual only give you a pass through the photos. You are not protected against other women especially women are very important in this

city. They're the real power. One minute exercise but she gives it to her. We are a matrilineal society and women give life. The country was not made for men. Women's abilities a stronger and so they're witches. There are many ritual sacrifices where the eyes are removed and tongues torn out of living fictions. Every day is a ritual sacrifice. White skin is already priced here and for that reason I cannot let my light skinned children out in the evening. What is the importance of the talk. He said the Remove the tongue to get and she said What do you think about it. He said there is no. It is to shock you. It was a relief to hear him say that he had spoken of energy in such a

positive way. I thought he might have been more accepting. He said power is everything. It is always sort of there is a lot of room vibration. And so you have many forest people living in the cities during elections you have to very careful because of ritual sacrifice. You have to go every day to pick up your children from school. I was 25 and I did my Ph.D. think because I'm a lawyer and successful and worked late into the night I moved it. And in a secret society and I knew all the people sleep they will think that you're a wizard. And so far as the president's concerned he's the king of the King of the visits. I'll ship with the photos to get a lot of movies photos ideas fade or change. He said maybe but I'm not sure. People who have not gone to a village for 20

years still have the same mindset which is still a farce and it is a challenge and I'm not sure that you will see people here in Libra especially going about in the sea. But it is an important thing. Gumbel didn't like CBT generally got good news people would not go to the sea because it is not. I said this this featureless and depress you. He said it doesn't. I know a lot of educated people who go to the witch doctor and spend a lot of money. This society works for this belief. Music painting sculpture everything is linked with the forest. And that's the end of the Rasa talk in my book. You know what. I know. You hear me OK.

Good evening everyone I'm just setting up a video to do. I think as Rachel told you I spend some years here before before Harvard was so fancy. They didn't even have a clothing line at the time. So it's good to be back. Now you. Is that when you say oh yeah that's good. I thought we might begin. By just speaking generally about your relationship to

Africa and it's something that you've been writing about for many years you went to Africa first and 1967 66 66 and that was in Uganda Uganda and limited to just these two key techniques. So that area of East Africa although this is mainly in West Africa yes. Yes. You've written about Africa and you've had several novels that are set largely in Africa or substantially in Africa. That was in a free stage bend in the river and have a life also as a bit of that and you do say that to us to write about a place in a novel you really have to know a place. So the question you have of course done some

very famous essays about Africa I think for instance of the crocodile's of yama Supro which in some ways is a sequel to us out of the Ivory Coast chapter in this book. But why is it that you have deferred doing this big kind of book about Africa. How does it come about now. Will Very simply you know one is always looking for the subject for a book and you cost your mind of. What you know what you written and. The things you have done come to you and you wonder whether you can do them. So that is that's the main reason. Because a book has to be nice to be done. A book has to be beautifully written and shaped and everything and I was able to

do this with this material because I I knew it at least a quarter of it before operating. You mention. In particular their sort of surprise a certain surprise in what you found something that was not an awareness that you didn't have. From that 25 percent that you already knew and that that surprise is expressed in one particular paragraph of the flap copy actually which you kindly contributed to in addition to writing the whole book. And I wondered if I might get you. And we've enjoyed listening to you for a good while but I wanted to if I might just get you to just read that paragraph as well which was the first paragraph that I had read I think and tearing

into this. I had expected but there were the grid size of Africa the practice of magic was significantly very vigilant. The divine is everywhere. Was it through the Buddha to read the future. Of the idea of energy remained a constant. To be tapped into by the ritual sacrifice of body parts in South Africa body parts merely of animals. But also of men and women made of it. The voters knew it was best to get two witnesses to be given some idea if it's to be taken far back to the beginning of things to reach the beginning it was the purpose of my book.

Thank you. That whole notion of the beginning of things. It seems that the. The Earth religions so described in the book are really governed by some notion of the beginning of things. And why is that the. Why does that predominate in traditional African religions. Why the beginning of feelings. Well not just cosmologically but but that that elemental ism that's what use George I called it was in my business to find out who it was my business just to consider what I saw. So what did you make of the these these coincidences that you observed. These these commonalities because you do a very good job of defining specificities

if you have a number of these things but one is struck by the by the recourse to the same ritual gestures and does it speak of relation to to life itself I mean about it what else is religion and that in that sense is it. So is it an issue of the way that one lives in relation to nature. What nature I was I was listening to you or your description about the forest the forest as you know very dark very fast very imposing. Yes. Is there any other way you could could any other religion have possibly evolved under such circumstances. We just want to live in relation to the physical of the strangers if you will like that. Then one has to find ways of going through the world. What Russell Tiger was talking about finding ways through the dangers of the forest.

You have to find a way through the dangers of the world. And this takes us right back to the ancient world. The classical world where you always have to understand how to deal with great events. If you were going to fight a war you had to take advice. You took advice of the pros the spirits the gods. You find out what they were. Giving him that memo examining the liver of the heart or some such substance part of the body of the two of you. And. If you did this all the time in Reuben belief which I suppose would be the Savors African belief. If you do this all the

time you would be all right. You would be. You would be living according to the rules. So I think it's living according to the rules the augers and so yes yes yes yes. And would you say then that there is a kind of progress because the Romans eventually gave that up. Is there a kind of progression from religion's connected to that kind of relationship to the universe. And then what follows say in the western world. I mean you mentioned that some time just as you know there isn't a kind of they're not concerned with the notion of the good life you know. And in government in the traditional religion of the targets it's just the idea of the good life sisters it's just the thing you have to do. So there's a kind of. But but they do have an overlay do they not.

Yes just these new religious then you are more efficient. They're all good guys. Rich give them a kind of set of things to hold on to. RUSSERT I guess is what you have in the forest cannot be called a religion yet you know it's a series of beliefs. The imported religions do give people a set of belief. But they give them something they get that it is they give them something more it seems in relation to the yes. What is frightening about this existence. Yes you mentioned that the the afterlife is the most for your tractor version. That's because it's so hard to understand. This is you were a missionary for Christianity. How would you go out and tell other people about your

religion if you could tell you that in this religion if you reverse them. There's an afterlife which is very very important and you can live fully in the afterlife. You know how tough the better for you. It's a good deal. Yes yes yes. And this is the book itself is very much a pout or similar in form I think to books that you have written about Islam and two books in particular that I have in mind. Among the believers is the first thing actually that I've read of yours even even before coming here and beyond belief. And both of those take up the subject of Islam in the minds of the converted people the non Arabic

cultures of Asia. And you say well you read a little from the preface to be prologue to beyond belief converts world converts worldview alters his holy places or in Arab lands his sacred languages Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own. He becomes whether he likes it or not a part of the Arab history the convert has to turn away from everything that is his. The disturbance for societies is immense and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved. That's a heavy trip is it. Is it like that in Africa. Versions of Islam there as you describe in those books famously a sort of neurosis really about the individual sense of himself and the

sense that is imposed by this alternate identity which men must assume. I wonder how much of that bears upon the African Muslim sense in the places at least in the places you visited. And I think the African Sylvie's do so quickly in Egypt because of this idea of the presence of the afterlife of this idea of the spiritual which. Which co-exist. Yes yes. And you see it when people try to tell the Africans of witchcraft is bad is that their force compelled to use the baggage of religion they talk about spirits and things

like that. So it looks as if their worth is telling the poor Africans is you can believe in says believe in good stewards you know them even better be telling a Christian don't believe in the devil. Exactly exactly exactly exactly. So those books or booklets of the floods of our tradition of the good religion comes to recluse too. Accepted religion come very very close to it. What would you say that the you do mention for instance in one place. I think it's in Uganda yes. When the comeback of mutation in the 19th century had brought in the muslims

at some point he decided to turn his back on that yet and let the Christians have a go to you so he complicated things quite a bit. And you say you wonder whether whether he wouldn't have regretted this and felt that Africa left in this matter might have arrived at its own more valuable synthesis of old and new. So I'm wondering would things be going better now in Africa where it not for the imported religions. If the if the and I think it's worth thinking about it too. Yes I think it might be with royalty. The ideas of the past head who have to wear the frightening thing of people and African sunsets don't like it. You seep through Thank you

gander. Who might be giving Christian firsts names. It takes a day and then they can be proud of them. But there's a cost of this. The trajectory rejects this idea of surrender. Advised to go with the past and I think that many of the people in the world who have accepted a foreign face feedback that I think it is. It's something to be understood. They know when a part of themselves this is just not me. Exactly not completely not completely it can never be yours. You never believe it. There's one other overlay of faith that complicates the picture yet again and that is one might say that the quayside religion of the cult of the leader in some of these places and I'm thinking in

particular of the case of one year in Ivory Coast who had a kind of pharaonic cult that you went and visited you. You saw two things that I remember most vividly and Yama sucrose the crocodile's years part of his cult was a moat full of Iraqi manufactured the kind of. A religion and a cult around it was all manufactured with a kind of a nod to the immediacy of nature and probably energy and then there's the fact of this the village where he was born. She's ordering there he's going to move to what he did with the virgins to put crocodile. It's so sad seeing the baby croc climbing up through onto bits of concrete

with a stranger and. The water is getting so dirty in such a such a misuse of nature. So the crocs are hanging in there so to speak. They're hanging in there. But without the. Yes without the cult. And there is no cult any longer. Yes. It loses its meaning. Exactly so the ritual remains the ritual remains either for how much longer I had it with my if I fade away a little hard here is another one of his still a form of self aggrandizement although perhaps nominally to the glory of God the Catholic cathedral there which is meant to be a replica yet St. Peter's not a replica so much you can't do the replica. It would bankrupt even in Africa but it very nearly did in this case. He

gave a little section of it a little bit of the believe he called it a little bit of the back of their career and. Covering some future you put out of the back a thought covering it said but it's back. Sure he's covering himself everywhere. There's the African faith there's the Christian faith is ordering it. Yes. One other thing. One is struck. By your feeling for animals in the story in fact. The crocodiles remind one because they were fed live chickens get on a regular basis and you do you do rather implicate the treatment of animals

in the measure of humanity which is a somewhat new notion in the history of civilization I mean we have animal rights as a thing nowadays. I think this town's probably very whether any anybody wearing fur tonight it's pretty cold. But how is it that. How is it that we should think about that that that our very humanity is implicated in the way that we treat animals because obviously the tradition of the traditions of religion have always been to sacrifice the average Amec religions carry this on it's not particular to the African religions although it does seem to be more varied in the ones that you discuss here. But there is something fundamental about the misuse of animals that seems to be misuse of evolution that sets you that set you off in the

book. But I think it would be wonderful if arrived at a feeling that like you know the big yes the robin redbreast in the cage puts him in the ridge. Yes the whole space used up on the road. Chrysler for ever for human blood things like that. So we it's a long time still a long time to be ideas working. The roads should be treated as sentient creatures and should be given the kind of dignity. Probably not rights because rights offends people the idea of rights the rights belong to people who think the people who. Who've worked it towed it was called to it thinking it would we have to do it full of

show we take a few look at it. This summer just a few phone number but it does give you that. Very naughty they did I thought was up there. Maybe you understand this question because this. Is this could only come from Harvard too. To what extent will Africa be a beneficiary of natural resource supercycle. Does that mean. So I

asked the question I you know if you see what's happened say in places like Brazil Russia they've had this virtuous cycle of rising commodity prices which is created tax revenues and the emergence of the middle class. And we're GDP per capita is growing sort of rapidly savings is increasing and societies which are very impoverished and all the sudden are reveling in so the effect their commodities market and that kind of things on tend to be quite commodity rich countries right. Yeah. So is there. Where is the rescue in Africa from. Natural resources I mean we're talking about nature and the appreciation and and so on. But you have you know obviously in the in the Middle East mineral wealth has created some other problems but certainly it has it has raised the standard of living. Where is that in Africa if you expect that in

Africa. Is that inevitable or is it inevitable that Africa has a lot of money if it technology it is really very rich. Yes of it is a large rich section of the population. Whether this can be good I don't know. There could be a broadening of the economic base. But I think look you know we don't believe in it includes for it any longer. We all of us are exposed to many conflicting feelings and I threw as many ideas. When you get down to to the rich folk of of Di's area of the movement then you give a slew and painful thing. But I think it's possible. Africa cannot just be isolated.

Well it's certainly one something one hopes for and and the logic of it is clear but one can't help thinking for example when you go to South Africa you mention for instance that. It was easier to rebuild. East Berlin than it would be to restore parts of parts of South Africa that had that had been developed and now had fallen into a kind of disrepair after the fall of apartheid. You know no one wouldn't. Say that was a good thing but it came at a kind of price it seems in what you do you know what you said. You cannot be fixed. I said I didn't know that. Do it really. But they have to they have to they have to. There's always a bit of

the kind of what's your favorite color question but this is what has been your happiest moment in your writing career. I should like to know what the happiest moment in your writing career. I feel that would have occurred when the world was very young. Because you know the know how people are. When you are you are in the future as a great big ball of around you. Anything is possible in that future. So if you do a good review for The New Statesman and you feel it's good it can make you quite happy. Well that's a pretty business. I wonder if I have had happy moments like that. There in the past.

Because no I mean I do the futures and eternally shrinking around me so that's that's a cosmic profit. But could it be that the change of the world of letters and ones you know you know the relative importance of that in any in these developed cultures which are called to question what was his happy moment. Yes if we can find the place we should find the question. Yeah it's pretty easy to ask it is for oil. Good. One. One of the things that can't possibly make you happy assertive and make me happier than the petty this British literary politics. It seems they really have nothing to do with their time but a personal attack. And I am wondering if you don't seem to have that problem

here. You get you get reviews that are about your books whereas other books are good reviews of yourself. Yes reviews of me. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES. What do you make of that. Its for teaching. The work I do with what I do I pay little attention. So it looks rather grand. He doesn't read the reviews usually but you got to do it too. If you keep a bit of your sanity. Yes its not easy being a writer really. Well in consideration of that I think we'll end it there but. I thank you. And I thank all of you and I hope you'll want to buy a book or come and say hello or both and we'll see you again.