Old South Meeting House; WGBH Forum Network; The Colorful Politician, James Michael Curley

Tonight we'll be hearing about a man whose controversial career transformed Boston politics and dominated the political scene for over half a century. James Michael Curley joining us this evening is Mr. William Bulger author of James Michael Curley a short biography. Mr. Bulger was first elected to the Massachusetts House of Representatives in 1960 and was an elected to the state Senate in 1970. He has served as president of the Massachusetts Senate for 18 years until he was appointed as president of the University of Massachusetts. Please help me welcome Mr. William Bulger. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Allies here I appreciate your generous introduction. It's very nice to be here if anyone has a question. At any point feel free to ask it. I don't mind being interrupted and I won't. We will not break my. Train of thought because well because I know everything and I welcome by the way a dear friend of mine Bob Allison who's a

history professor over Suffolk University. And it was from conversations with Bob Allison that I came through with his help write this book. We were talking a little bit about Curly and his influences on me and I recognized it's a matter of a very limited kind of interest because Curley is a local. Figure and only was for a short while in the 30s on the national scene. But he was a favorite of mine. I grew up in South Boston where. I still recall. Reading in the Boston Herald. Many of you have seen the Boston Herald. It's a little tabloid and the globe looks down at the Herald. But we in South Boston with just the Herald with verbs. And so. So there will be a lot of that and I can tell you this that I

came to appreciate fairly I liked him and I still remember reading in The Boston Herald that I think it was Canadians Dalton telling the people in Boston that bad weather is predicted for Tuesday next Election Day and people in South and West Roxbury and in Brighton and places describing all of the more enlightened parts of the city and the Back Bay and Beacon Hill they said he he. Dalton said be out and be sure to vote on Tuesday because if you don't vote be assured of this. In South Boston in the north and in East Boston and child they will be trooping to the polls. And you know who they'll be voting for. James Michael Curley and I can still recall feeling so proud of

my neighbors because they were singled out for that kind of praise. They fought for themselves. They didn't care what the press said. And so I I kind of had this liking for Curly. I thought of them as a. As well first of all meeting with all of the disapproval of the press and and I thought of him as a person who thought for himself made his own decisions came to his own conclusions and and no one would deny that of Curley with the mayor of the city of Boston at any point at least. We all know this. It was Curly who was the mayor and no one else was running him. And I think that's a great tribute to him. And I had been telling my friend Bob Allison how many years ago after four years of B.S. high school I had gone to Boston College and there I had a great professor. His name was Father Carl say I when I dedicate this little book to father.

Was a great professor and he was an eccentric. And I can tell you not giving anything away when I tell you it was Father Mullen and the president a B C who one day said to me your friend father is an eccentric and so he said but but father and father say used to tell us we study ancient Greek language and we would also come to know every one of the dramatist Sophocles. And the historians Harada to us and the cities and the leaders the political leaders of the knees and so on. Apparently my father thought so much of them he would tell us that if you know the ancient Greeks used to say you don't have to know anyone else. I really like that. And we studied very hard. And one day father fair invited us to write conversations

and in the class because I had all sorts of students not new people to me and they lived in places like West Roxbury dead ham need and very foreign sounding places. And I was there from South Boston and I don't know I was a little argumentative so my paper I could write on any subject I wrote about James Michael Curley and I praised him no end. And also. I took issue with those who had visited upon him a conviction which I thought was railroading him in the 40s when he had gone to jail. And it was the point of view by the way which I really picked up from Joe Deneen who wrote the purple Shamrock a biography of curly and it was clearly it was point of view that it was a railroad job. James Michael Curley Well that was enough for me. And anyway I gave I wrote the paper and father.

Came back into the class a couple of days later and he asked me in front of the class he would you like to read that paper for the class. I should be very happy to do that. I thought the whole class would be ready to wage war on me because their families came from places where a couple of people tell me the point of view was prevalent. The Curly was a villain and no good. And all of the rest. And I thought that the classes would take issue. But happily for me I read the little paper aloud and then everyone in the class gave me a round of applause. And that's when I decided I think I'll run for office. And there we were. So I tell you this only just. And so I get into it it's a very small small book the book about curly as I say a short biography but about a person for whom I have. Admiration. And I I'll take you back very briefly to a visit by John Fitzgerald

Kennedy who became a hero in the in the 50s in the 60s and John Fitzgerald Kennedy. And many of us were really inspired by him to public service elective office. And I was in the legislature in the year one thousand eight hundred sixty one I think it's January the 9th and we had already been sworn in we're sworn in the very first Wednesday in January and president elect John Fitzgerald Kennedy who had been elected in. Prior previous November overage Nixon was on his way to Washington to be sworn in around the 20th of January and he addressed us in the legislature. And I can sum it up very very quickly he he spoke of the he it was his hope that when he went to Washington to render the public service that he had been called upon to give he said I he said I hope that in the judgment of history is made

upon me. He said I hope that I and you and others who public servants will measure up two to four virtues and he cited four virtues that he you know elaborated just for a little bit on each of them but they were obvious to you. He first said Courage. He put a high priority on courage and named it first he said because without coverage you may not be able to follow through on these other ventures. And the second one he said was integrity. We have to be honest and and positively committed to our responsibilities as a public servant duty. And third you said judgment. And that one is an interesting one to me and I'm going to say a little bit more about it and finally it was dedication. But anyway courage and integrity and judgment and dedication to the public

purpose that you've taken on. I remember that. And I I recall thinking of again Curly about that time. By then I think I had kind of old left or Curly had died a few years before I had. He had been waked at the State House and I had gone by to his wake and paid my respects. And he. The president the president elect spoke of those qualities. And I thought I think first of all just a couple of things and I'll get me a little bit about curlies background and what appealed to me. I think he was a man of great courage. He's born about eighteen hundred seventy four. And then someplace just when he's still in his 20s just around one thousand no one. He does something very bad something he should not have done. He and his friend

Tom Curley who is no relation by the same name Tom Curley they go and they're in the habit by the way of trying to get jobs for people helping people to get jobs. It was very much the same way when I was in public office from South Boston. I still remember Tom Finneran saying on St. Patrick's morning be a Mr. Transit Authority. And I said oh my gosh everybody. Of course we were getting jobs whenever we could do so and because people come they and they ask for it. And that kind of help and you give it as best you can. And so purely as habit was doing that too he was in politics he was an alderman and he wanted very much to be helpful to people looking for jobs. And so he and his friend Tom Curley went down there because they were two people friends of theirs

seeking to become postman. They had as Curly says they had the physical means to the Big Beat and walking along he said but they didn't have the brains. So he and Tom Curley went down and took the exam for the two of them and they were caught and they were convicted and the judge Lowell sent them away both of them. Charles St. jail 90 days was a must have been a terrific jolt to the two of them. But that's that was their punishment. And I don't he never. Well first of all. I his courage I think for he had made a terrible mistake. But I liked him for this. He didn't give up. He went back into the fray into the public battles and he never never was free of that for the rest of his political life in the 30s. I still recall there was a newspaper in Lynn

and they were still printing showing him a curly with the ball in the chain and in the cartoons. And he was right up the gentleman from the newspaper was walking right over here near the site of the Boston Massacre of the old statehouse not just a block away and he surely saw clearly was upset with this cartoon and that particular morning because it had upset his daughter Mary who he loved and Curly walked across the street and and hit the editor and knocked him out. I kind of guy and he and then your course. So newspapers get very very touchy about such things and so so why but again but. But the fact is it's decades later and we come from a culture that believes in some sort of. Ability to atone.

I don't know to be forgiven. Ultimately because we know that all of us are flawed all of us are imperfect and we have all kinds of explanations for it. Original sin being one of the most most valid. I don't even know whether they believe in original sin in this. But anyway I haven't. I just enjoy this so much and to be in charge I really should be using that. So so. But again that's that's the sort of thing that went on in his life but he had a lot of color a lot of it since only a few years later after he's out of jail he's back out. Tom Curley had been elected to the Massachusetts State Senate and they tried to keep him out of the Senate because they didn't want to seat him because he had been convicted of a felony. You know he had been elected I think ultimately he was allowed to be

seated in the Massachusetts State Senate. But clearly. Very briefly he becomes mayor of the city of Boston that's around 19 14. He becomes mayor for the ferry first time and he runs into all kinds of obstacles. He has this in his background. Another person I think would have just given up decided look I can't make it in this world if I am in a conspicuous position and people can hold this against me. Instead I think he could by the way justify anything to himself. And he began to exploit it. And he would talk about it. I did it for a friend. And if you're my friend I won't forget you either. And he would go on and on. And pretty soon everybody said that's the kind of a guy I want as a friend. And he was using it on. And so and so in 19 you get elected mayor by the way he had defeated somebody who had when.

Not a not a very good candidate but John Fitzgerald how he fits had been the mayor and decided not to run the story. The legend is that Curly was going to expose some infidelity on the part of Fitzgerald I don't know whether there's any truth to it but Doris Kearns Goodwin seems to have thought so. And she said that Curly had said that he was going to give some historical talks and about and and also about illicit love affairs from Cleopatra to Tootles and Tootles presumably was Fitzgerald but I don't know. And anyway so but so and then Fitz he dropped out. Curly ran curly blond and better now the legislature starts being very emphatic early changing the rules. The mayor cannot succeed himself. And so they buy new statutes to frustrate Curly's political ambition.

Legislature intrudes upon matters in the city as it always did and disallow us from succeeding himself. So he's out of office and back in one thousand twenty two and he becomes mayor again. And then he's back out of office and he's running again in one thousand eight hundred thirty and becomes mayor again. And it's in this time that he really hits the stride Curly. He recognizes that Al Smith was running for president of the United States in one thousand twenty eight cannot be elected president of the United States he now has two things against him not just that he's a Catholic but also he's lost an election and won nine hundred twenty eight. And so he clearly recognizes that Franklin Delano Roosevelt the governor of the state of New York was the more likely person. Massachusetts people were wild with curly at that time very angry.

They censured him. They took his name off the rolls wherever he was on and on it went they just were so miffed at him because he was leaving Al Smith govern a lie and others they were all with everybody was with Al Smith. David I watched everyone only clearly broke ranks and went with Roosevelt and he became a great campaigner for Roosevelt. And but back home in Boston people didn't know Roosevelt very well he's the governor of New York and they were not happy with him Curly. And so they wouldn't even allow him to go to the convention in one thousand one hundred thirty two. And he nevertheless behind the Massachusetts delegation at the convention in Chicago in one thousand thirty two is the Puerto Rican geisha and truly ends up with them. And he has not only that but promoted himself into being their

spokesman. The person who on the floor when the roll is called it's Curly who stands up suddenly everyone they don't even speak to him when he says they're from Massachusetts they're angry with him and he placed himself the lead Governor Easley from Massachusetts places a Smiths name in nomination and then speech that was greatly overshadowed by the appearance of one of Puerto Rico's delegates. Nevertheless Anyway he from the Al Smith delegation right behind in the in the delegation from Puerto Rico. Curly Oh. And. Here and there Mr. Chairman. The delegation from Puerto Rico votes unanimously for Franklin Delano.

Roosevelt. Everybody in the delegation I'm told and they couldn't believe it. He was back. Not only was he back he was with the winner who was on his way to a victory here at the Democratic convention one thousand thirty two. So Curly is back and this time in one thousand and this is when he hits his stride in the 30s. He goes across the country speaking for for for a friend Roosevelt by the way as mayor of the city he had really done a very good job as mayor of this city. This is a little tribute paid to him by the Boston Post the Boston Post does anybody remember the Boston Post. You know you do. My gosh. Nice memories. This is the this is the post speaking of him and just a very this is only a paragraph a tribute by the proces. In days when city after city was defaulting its obligations when faithful

employees went without pay for months. When Bear treasuries a lot of no assistance to the unfortunate Boston stood almost alone among the large cities of the country and living up to every obligation and providing generously for all in need. No matter what the critics may say Boston kept the faith. Solvency financial honor and consideration of those who could not help themselves went hand in hand. If this is a proud record and Mayor Curley is entitled to the tribute of a grateful people he developed into an administrative genius. No man could possibly approach him in knowledge of the city problems for 20 years. He has been a deep and earnest student of municipal government. It is not likely we shall see a man with his vast equipment and

many years to come. A beautiful tribute by The Washington Post and by the way they did acknowledge that he saw some faults in them but said the false like gently on him. As a bit Im not good bye good luck he was leaving the office of mayor at the time that they wrote that. I just mention it because there were many many reasons people voted for him because they liked him and they saw him as a person who cared deeply about the people he represented. I think it was I think it was a very good time politically in the sense that before the huge huge amounts of money are spent for advertising and the rest which are which really separate candidates from the people they represent I mean you just it's an advertising you're selling a product now and you really don't know the person the fact that you know less and less because and the more they're exposed to their own advertising the

less you can be sure of about the individual and so forth that's valid do you think. And so but anyway. And during the campaign of one thousand I always take taking of James Michael Curly you know clearly he loved John Boyle O'REILLY You know Riley the poet. O'Reilly was a fellow he's lived a very short life one in 1844 and died in 1890. He'd been shipped in chain store straight Yeah. And Shirley used to have a little part of the poem the exile of the gale it's a huge long poem. No treason we bring from Aaron no Bring we shame nor guilt. The sword we hold may be broken but we have not a drop to the hilt. The wreath we bear to Colombia is twisted of songs not days and the songs we sing are saddened by thoughts of death of a US but the hearts we bring for freedom. I washed in a surge of tears

and we claim a right by a people's fight. I'll be living a thousand years. The poem goes on and on about hundred and fifty lines and if you're not careful you'll get them all the time. I still remember this is name dropping coming back from war in an automobile with Seamus Heaney the Irish poet and in the car something I say I say I I've memorized poems and I said we had to memorize the Hound of Heaven. Hundred eighty two line poem and I mention that in the car I still remember Seamus Heaney's going to shy you know and he looked at me very busy wiping the steam off the window and looking out. I only figured out and in those moments that he was worried that I was going to inflict the whole hundred eighty two lines on. He was too polite to say don't do it don't do it. But that was so. I mention that it's.

And by the way John Boehner really every one of my constituency would know John but O'Reilly and this is this is one on me but I had liked a quote from Seneca Seneca said you know he's a Roman philosopher in the first century and Seneca said that loyalty is the holiest good in the human heart. Congressman Moakley you should write that down he said I like that he never used these quotes. If I could you would look at me as or strange you know. And I said I wrote it down and Mary McGrory member Mary McGrory she wrote me a letter. She said Joe Moakley has been using quotes around here in Washington loyalty is the holiest good in the human heart. I asked him Where do you get that. He says Obama just said that. And then and then later Joe used to say it so frequently. We were good friends he had grown up in the old have a housing project I was a forty one Logan job was at 51 Logan way and he said it so frequently.

Now if you go down across from the same Monica's church at Columbus Park right there there on the pillar into the granite loyalty is the holiest good in the human had John Joseph Moakley. So don't believe a word you read. My fellow Democrats. So I mention that because let me just just just a one little thing one more paragraph about. He had a curly had a great speech he was using for Franklin Roosevelt all over the country and this is like the forgotten man speech it's very famous everybody would know it and. It's not to lie and this is not the whole speech or a long paragraph he said. Much has been said of The Forgotten Man. Naturally I have been a bit interested in him myself. Some have asked Who is he and where is he. And I have made it my business to make inquiry to those

who are unfamiliar with his existence. I want to say that within the last 30 days he could be found within the shadow of the national capitol of Washington to the number of 15000 sleeping in the open. To those who might visit the greatest industrial city in the whole world the city of Detroit. He might be found with his dependence to the number of six hundred thousand out of a population of two million or almost one in every three of the men women and children in the city of Detroit. For those who might journey to the richest city in the entire world the city of New York he would find the forgotten man and his dependence in the number of one million three hundred thousand subsisting on public charity victims in the richest of the whole world. Of Hoover ism. So but truly

did the job and did it he did it well and a few little things I liked about him very much. I went one time and visited his. He was he was very loyal to his spot as well Mary. But first of all to his own mother as a as a young fellow growing up one of the reasons I liked him when his his father had died early he was in a contest re lifting a heavy object or piece of sidewalk actually and he collapsed from India and he died and surely had to step into the breach as the son of Sarah Clancy Curley the widow. And he held the family together and he did everything working day and night to keep things going and they lived over and everybody knows the area in Southampton Street the Boston City Hospital as we always know it but these are the the mudflats over there it's a tough old area and even now. And he he.

He lived there and he gave his very best to his family and yours and he was very respectful of his mother and I think the same thing carried through as life with his first wife Mary Curley. And later after she passed away I was a second wife Gertrude Dennis curly and I had met Dennis curly and I asked about him and what kind of cat could you tell me anything personal about him. And she told me that when they were married at first they were living over in the Jamaica Way in the house with the shamrock or shutters. And he said she said one morning banging on the door banging and banging and there was a somebody at the door and I went to the door and opened it and there was a woman there and she had obviously been drinking and she wanted to talk to the governor. I want to see the governor I insisted.

And she wanted to see the governor and of course in Massachusetts you know once you're the governor you're always the governor so. And she said she turned and she could see Dr. Lee coming down the stairs the famous spiral staircase. And he should what should I do should I call the police. No. Let me talk and you open the library door escorted the lady into the library and she sat and talked to him. And after about 10 or 15 minutes after a conversation with the governor and him were here you had the ability to give her a few dollars and that was his habit to do things like that. He opened the door reopened the door of the library and she stepped out and she and Mrs. Gertrude Dennis Curley said to me she's that woman was transformed. She was so happy to have spoken with him. And she was walking out the door she looked at me as though I were the

intruder. So shoot and then out the door she went. This is goodbye governor and just. And she said and he turned to me he said you know she has no one else in the world to talk to no one. That's something I can do for her. And I should never you should never step in the way of my doing it. I always want to be there for such people. And I think in his whole life there was evidence of that attitude always. We have the famous story about the scrub women of course at city hall in which he didn't want them on their knees and the longer and so we have. And none of them and it ever again he handled a long handled mops and the rest. But and it's a story but nevertheless consistent with so much of I think the good things about Curly. And then at the end of 1932 back to the business of the coverage but really didn't know was that he was doing.

He had gone to jail as a young fellow. No one. We're not that forgiving. And the public around and Roosevelt knew it and truly wanted desperately a certain job secretary of the Navy for a variety of reasons. And he after a while it became clearer and clearer to him that FDR was not going to do it even though Curly had been a stalwart champion of years even though he clearly had done everything humanly possible for Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt was not going to do this because he would be under severe criticism Crilly was now an award boss one city boss one of the old city bosses you know Kelly and Chicago and hag of course in New Jersey and and and for people who wonder about such people there's one particular boss you wrote a book the name of it was you're the boss. He was the flan. He was the boss of the Bronx in New York and he was part of the Roosevelt

administration too. He writes and writes a beautiful book. You're the boss. And he sees the role of the people like Curly. He said instead of having someone remotely selected by people you don't even know. This is a person who establishes a communication a relationship with all sorts of people in the community and has to build his candidacy on that. And so he makes a huge case for those folks. Now I would also say that Shirley was never I'm I don't want to canonize him he he he would attack the city bosses when he be in battle with them as Nayyar in the West and to the Manhattan. He was a powerful figure over there. Joseph Kennedy I don't know if Patrick Kennedy rather the ambassador's father and he splashed and actually would be attacking the city bosses and he was one of the selfless thing.

But nevertheless he he played a great role a political role and I admired him always and then in the 40s he came back everybody. By the way he became governor from thirty one thousand thirty four to 1936 he did a very good job as governor but it's only a two year term. He was having great trouble with it and he lost to several fights he ran for the United States Senate against Henry Cabot Lodge and he lost and he lost a troll been a mayor a couple of times. And but he by the way when he could not win I want you to be able to ask questions but. He had people in Charles Town East Boston. They can be a congressional seat from over that way. He live in Jamaica Plain You don't have to live in the district where you represent you represent as a congressman. So he would just put his name on the ballot over there and he become a congressman because whoever was in they'd kick him out and make her leave.

So the Outrage of the press was so good you know. I mean if you don't have anything else there's there's a tribute to you. And so so really then he went in the early 40s he went twice to the Congress from Cape Charles living in Jamaica Plain and then came back and he ran for mayor and became mayor again in 1986 but by then this terrible really tragic thing catches up with him. He he had put his name on a masthead. He received no money. He a fellow who really was a villain who was going to get contracts and people and other people were. Their names are on them but they were not indicted as Curly was. And the general attitude was in the 40s there that according to our friend Joseph Deneen this was very much. It was as though listen you got away with a whole lot and no matter what we're going

to try you convict you and he was tried and convicted in Washington D.C. by a jury that the judge Judge Proctor did a very bad job. He didn't sequester the jury didn't keep them in. Even had to tell them don't look at the New York Times. Don't ask me to like not to the New York Times or other LIFE magazine. Don't look at look magazine each one of which was writing devastating things against Curley and then the jury I think it's mind poisoned by this. They could not possibly. And Danine makes this point they could not possibly have ignored what was being said and all of the public media so that they they deliberated 12 hours one day and he sent them home. Now the judge did. They came back they deliberated liberated another 14 hours and again he held on somebody would've recognized that

it's dangerous to have a jury that's being influenced or at least could be influenced by outside influences and ultimately there was a conviction. And and he didn't survive the appeals or whatever. But my own sense of it is and I don't I recognize by the way he runs for office also some things I think are happening that you know he's always running for office and people you could if you were getting campaign contributions just as my understand you could take them and use them personally or you could use them to advance your candidacy. It's not what we would want. It's not the way we should be. And now there are strict rules on that as it should be. But maybe that's one of the reasons she's running all the time. But nevertheless she as a person I admired her always and I loved her of all those things. Finally the matter of judgment. Everybody you know Edmund Burke the famous Edmund Burke in the

18th century you know a political philosopher remember the pot imagine he says your representative owes you not his industry only but his judgment and he betrays instead of serves you if he sacrifices it to your opinion. Burke recognizes that when you're elected you better be willing to make up your own mind. You should not let other influences of overtake you. And it can come in the form of a bribe as it sometimes does regrettably can even be an effort to really curry the favor of someone who can do something and I think that sometimes that's what people are doing when they think they know the editorial point of view in the local. I still remember I had lunch one day with Tran Winship who I liked he was at the Boston Globe and when Chip said come up and at least talk to the editorial board once you've been there for 12 years and you won't even come up and say hello and I was there by the way 35 years and I never went up and sat alone.

I said Tom I don't want to go there. If you lose a lot of cooking and me I says. And we were Jimmy's Harborside he wanted to go someplace where would be neutral and so anyway. But he said you know he said we might even be able to endorse you. Oh I said No no I couldn't take that risk you know. I spend all my time beating up on the clock. And so so but but I think I had it in the mind all of the time. The most important thing was to seek to curry favor with people the very powerful the press and but they can and they can abuse their power and I think people if they're going to be public servants they should be very very mindful of the fact that that's an influence that could have a very bad effect on their judgment and they should be able to make their own judgements their elected somebody and that's how I used to think about it you get elected and all of a sudden the people who elected you hardly know what they're thinking but you do know what the editorial

columnists are saying. And you know again I have one I want to stay on this too long but I thought it was the influence of curly on me. I what I thought was that you know. It would be obviously wrong if the powerful bank Bank of Boston out of the John Hancock insurance could summon Giuliani and insist that you come up and talk to the board. Everybody would recognize that's wrong. It's also and I used to say that the Winship I say you're a business for profit and Wendy's Baptists and on the table he said I just hate that you always refer to us as a business for profit. You should just say that in the Senate. Really as I said what what do you why do you come in from Lincoln every day I say you Mother Teresa or something. Big car driving you and so anyway but that's that's that's enough. That's the influence of curly a great person in my unbiased opinion. And then now

you should be. And by the way I you know I recognize that there are other points of view. They're wrong. So but I welcome your. Book. I welcome whatever you have to say.