John F. Kennedy Library Foundation; WGBH Forum Network; Change Haiti Can Believe In: Part I

Good evening and welcome to the John F. Kennedy Library I'm John Shattuck the CEO of the Kennedy Library Foundation and on behalf of our board of directors some of whom are here tonight. And Tom Putnam our library director and all our colleagues I'm delighted to introduce this all star and if ever there were such a word. This is the one to use for I'm here tonight. Let me start by thanking the institutions that make our forums possible. Our lead sponsor Bank of America as well as the Boston Foundation Boston capital of Lowell Institute the Corcoran Jenison companies and our media partners the Boston Globe any CNN and WB you r which broadcasts all Kennedy Library forums on Sundays at 8:00. We often make it a practice here at the Kennedy Library to introduce our forums with a few words from John F. Kennedy. Tonight I can't imagine a more appropriate invocation than the following passages from President Kennedy's inaugural address.

Passages that carry a message that was powerfully restated in different words last week by President Obama. Let the word go forth that the torch has passed to a new generation of Americans unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation is committed at home and around the world. Now the trumpet summons us again not as a call to battle though embattled we are but as a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle against the common enemies of man tyranny poverty disease and war. Now the enemies of human rights are certainly tyranny poverty disease and war and the people of Haiti have been plague for centuries by all of them. Haiti is the second oldest independent country in the western hemisphere. It was born in 18 0 4 in the shadow of the French Revolution and grew out of a slave

rebellion against the brutal French colonial elite the country's founding father was to sent louver Toure the founder the leader of the rebellion who cast himself as Haiti's Napoleon. Who me addressed from the first of the blacks to the first of the whites. All too soon the revolution in Haiti was brought to a bloody end and for the next 200 years the country was ruled by tyranny and war and dominated by poverty and disease. My own experience with Haiti was as a human rights official during the Clinton administration I was involved in planning and implementing an effort by the US and the United Nations to restore Haiti's first democratically elected president Jong bare draw era stede who had been deposed by a violent military coup. I spent many days with many heroic people and came to identify with their struggle to bring about a change that Haiti can believe in. That struggle continues

today. And each of the speakers here on our stage has had a deep personal involvement with it and as we celebrate the inauguration of a new American president who represents the kind of change we can all believe in. Our panel will help us apply President Obama's great rallying cry. Yes we can. To the struggle of one of America's oldest allies and closest neighbors. My friend Paul Farmer began his lifelong commitment to the people of Haiti more than 25 years ago working with villages in Haiti's central plateau. And then while he was a medical student founding a rural health complex that now includes a hospital and a series of clinics and schools that have pioneered the treatment of drug resistant tuberculosis and HIV AIDS for hundreds of thousands of Haitians. Paul Farmer is one of the world's foremost strategies for combating disease in conditions of extreme poverty. Working with the world health organization Partners in Health and the Open Society Institute he has developed

treatment programs across the globe in Haiti in Rwanda Peru Russia Azerbaijan Latvia and Kazakhstan. Paul's relentless work on behalf of the world's poorest populations has been recognized with many awards and honors including a MacArthur Genius Award and he is the subject of the bestselling 2003 book by Pulitzer Prize winning author Tracy Kidder Mountains Beyond Mountains the quest of Paul Farmer a man who would cure the world. Paul it's great to welcome you back to the candidate. I'm going to like John F. Kennedy Ted Williams and Dustin Pedroia Matt Damon is a guy who makes us all proud to be from Boston.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm good and prouder still no doubt or those who like my daughter attended Cambridge Rindge and Latin School across the river in the late 1980s when Matt was there launching his trip to stardom from the C R O S stage. We all know Matt as the Oscar winning screenwriter and costar along with his high school friend Ben Affleck of Good Will Hunting and so many other great films like The Departed The Good Shepherd The Bourne Identity Ocean's Eleven we've all got our favorites and I could go on and on so many that it's easy to lose count. But what many people may not know about Matt Damon is that he's a human rights activist who has championed the cause of some of the world's poorest and most oppressed people. Along with George Clooney Brad Pitt and Don Cheadle who also spoke from the stage. Matt is one of the founders of not on our watch a campaign to stop the crimes against humanity in Dar 4. Last September he visited Haiti after a series of devastating

hurricanes that brought flooding and destruction that severely worsened the conditions of poverty and disease from which the Haitian people are struggling to reach to emerge. Matt teamed up with Haitian singer white cliff song working with the U.N. and the World Food Program to draw attention to the crisis and help raise more than 100 million dollars for the 800000 Haitians devastated by the storms. He's modest about what he does for human rights and has said that I would rather people were listening to politicians than actors about this but the politicians aren't talking about places like Haiti. Matt it's an honor to have you here with us today. I'm good thanks. Linda Dorsey an A for e is one of Boston's rising political stars with deep roots in the Haitian American community. Her parents came from Haiti to Dorchester and worked hard to raise their children in the Upham scorner neighborhood a few miles from here where Linda grew

up after earning her degrees at Boston College and Suffolk University Linda began her career as a legislative assistant in the state legislature then moved to city government where she became chief of staff and Boston's housing and neighborhood development departments. And in 2005 she scored a major surprise victory over a strong field of candidates competing for the state legislative seat formally held by the legendary House Speaker Tom Finneran. Like Barack Obama Linda Dorsey in a FOR A has demonstrated a leadership style that reaches across all the lines of race and class. There you go and create unity out of division. I know her father in law is here somewhere he's just getting grilled by that. Last year Linda gave a stirring speech here at the Kennedy Library to Bostonians from all parts of the world who were being sworn in as new citizens telling them about her own connection to her

family roots in Haiti and last fall after the election of President Obama. Linda called on the new administration in an article to change the course of U.S. policy toward Haiti so that Haiti once again will become a foreign policy priority for the United States. Thank you Linda for returning to our state. And I forgot her husband is here too. So he's even more proud. Bill our fourth panelist is Brian Konkana a human rights lawyer and director of the Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti. Bryan has worked with the international lawyers office in Port au Prince to investigate and prosecute the many violent crimes that were committed by paramilitary agents and gangsters working for the Haitian military regime that overthrew President Aristide in 1991. In February 2004 Haiti was struck by yet another military coup. And Brian started working right away to document this latest wave of human rights abuses. He's

also been involved in creating a human rights training program for Haitian lawyers and he was a Brandeis International fellow in human rights intervention and international law. Welcome to our stage Brian. A moderator tonight as is Amy Goodman who many of us know and revere and the host of Public Radio's And television's cutting edge award winning public affairs program Democracy Now which began. Thank you. Which began broadcasting in 1906 and now airs on more than seven hundred fifty stations across North America. In 2004 Amy published a book entitled The exception to the rulers and that's exactly what she believes the media should be the role of a reporter she says is to go where the silence is and say something for going to places like Haiti East Timor Peru and Nigeria to

report on stories ignored by the mainstream media. Amy has won many honors including the Robert F. Kennedy journalism award the Polk Award in the Overseas Press Club Award. So please join me again and welcoming to the stage of the Kennedy Library Paul Farmer Matt Damon. Linda Dorsey and of Laurie Ryan cannon and Amy Goodman. Well it is a wonderful moment right now. To be in a room of hundreds of people talking about a country that rarely gets this kind of attention in this country and at what a moment. I mean on November 4th. The world he decided of really. It wasn't just. It wasn't just a national election. It was a global event a global

phenomenon. Barack Obama global. Figure. The son of black Kenyan man a white woman from Kansas grows he's born in Hawaii moves to Indonesia comes back goes to school in California and Harvard and perhaps most importantly becomes a community organizer in the South Side of Chicago. Imagine. Imagine that now parents around the world will be saying to their kids maybe you can be a community organizer. And then maybe you can be president someday. And to see the Barach and the show Obama. Walk into the White House with their children. Michelle Obama the granddaughter of a man from South Carolina who came north in the Great Migration to Chicago where they settled. She is the descendant of slaves as her children are to see them walk into the White House a house built. By slaves.

It is a new age. Now. Today we're here to talk about Haiti and there are direct connections. Haiti born an 18 0 4 as John said of a slave uprising. It was not recognized by the United States for decades. Congress members fearful that the slaves of Haiti would in or the new Republic of Haiti born of a slave uprising would inspire slaves to rise up in the United States. But we are centuries later. And the possibilities for a new relationship between Haiti and the United States. Well ultimately it will be up to you. And that's what we're here to talk about. Tonight. Is the possibility of change and what it will take. So I wanted to begin with Paul with Dr. Paul Farmer who has been in Haiti for many years. To start

off by giving us the. Contours political geographic of Haiti what is happening today and what you think needs to be done. We live in a globalized world but when it comes to information it is we are very insulated in this country and getting information of countries around the world. Thank you Amy. I would I would. Skip ahead to the very recent past and you you're familiar with a lot of this but everyone has his or her own some ation of what's going on in Haiti and what's going on recently. But I think there are some things that are in contra vertical For example we know that between 18 0 4 and 1990 Haiti never had free and fair elections. And we know that in 1990 and again on two other occasions there were free and fair elections in Haiti. And in each of those instances with with reliable. Unison.

The Haitian majority voted for the same platform again and again and some people have their way of describing this platform but I would call it basically a very pro poor people's platform for basic social and economic rights the right to go to school the right to not starve to death the right to have medical care. And these are ambitions that may be not so familiar to a lot in an American audience. You know the right to go to school you know you could argue that certainly the struggle that African-Americans had to wage in the 20th century even. But for Haitians today this is these are still very much in addition to the right to vote and the right for it to free speech these are also the struggles. So unfortunately on a number of occasions. The this these elected governments have been overthrown or undermined and then overthrown. And I think that's something we should talk about tonight how did that happen. Who was involved. And I would just close by saying close my comments by saying that I'm headed back there tomorrow and you know and I know that I'll hear what I usually do when I go to Haiti to hear

about things like getting kids back into school. This is January is in some ways the hardest month January and September when the kids have to go back to school. What about medical care what about access to clean water. What about finishing roads and above all. What about jobs. So these this same refrain is something that I've been hearing now for a quarter of a century and I've learned a lot from Haiti and Haitians and I hope that we can learn as Americans learn how to respect Haitians and respect their right to choose the people they want to lead their country. But if you could talk more about the challenges that Haitians face right now everything from health care education. Well if you look at the numbers on these issues first of all before I forget I mean the reason that Haiti was so devastated by these four storms last fall is because he also faces an environmental and ecological crisis which is tightly tied to the economic and political crises that I've mentioned.

And but if you look at the numbers you know Haiti our oldest neighbor has the health indices are bad. Not enough kids are in school. High rates of illiteracy and also high rates of privatization of schools and health care facilities so Haiti is it's not an accident in my view. And I say this as someone who works with an NGO and it works with church groups as well. It's not an accident that Haiti has the most privatized education system in Latin America and also has the most people who are literate because it's not a right to go to school so they have to pay tuition and get your books in your uniform in your shoes. And that's really makes it very difficult for people families living in poverty to say I want my kid to go to school become privatized. Well you know this is unfortunately been A through Z as some of the leads. Countries all over the world to make things something other than a right say a commodity. But in Haiti I worked in 10 countries and you can't really know 10 countries well and I feel like I know Haiti well and maybe Rwanda in my own country but

of the 10 countries in which I were worked this is taken to the greatest extreme this privatization it's really through public policies and some of them alas have been championed by our own governments the United States over the last eight years for example all assistance to Haiti. The great majority of assistance to Haiti went through the private sector NGOs church groups faith based organization and very little of it went through the public sector and without the public sector having a public health public education public water. So a lot of it has been policies sometimes advocated by international financial institutions sometimes by foreign governments and tolerated by Haitian governments but again it's hard to know what Haitian governments would do if they were able to play out their their time in office without being worried about over being overthrown by some violent coup. Matt you went to Haiti in September after the hurricanes can you describe what you saw where you were what you experienced. Yeah I went I went with why questions on and and

some other people a group of people who are here tonight and we went. After the fourth hurricane rolled through and it would die. It's it was almost indescribable I mean it was. Extreme poverty which is you know people who are subsisting basically about 25 or less a day I guess that's the definition. But on top of it was this. Other does that it was like a disaster on top of another disaster. And it was basically people were living in conditions that could only be described as inhuman. You know I was there I think it was 12 that like a week or 12 days after the last hurricane and people were still on their rooftops. It's just not something that. I mean the smell the you know everything everything about it was the first thing wife actually said to me and he grew up in Haiti and when we came we had to go in with the supplies that were that the U.N. was taking and

so we hitched a ride on one of their helicopters and we drove out of this little UN base. The first thing that hit us was this was this smell and then we started to see people in the conditions in which they were living and. He that's this is what what wifeless said is as a Haitian man coming back to his country he said this is not human. This is not a way human beings should live our animals don't live like this. And that was it. It's just not something as an American I think it's very hard for us to relate to that kind of thing and even I've traveled in the third world a bit and and seen you know extreme poverty up close. On. A number of occasions in a number of different countries but to see a natural disaster on top of that was. Indescribable inhuman I guess. And where were you in going I have which was the city that I think people probably saw on the news. And it was the city that we had been completely cut off because the bridges were all washed out and so CNN got in there and you know it was the one where you saw people walking through you know in knee deep in waist deep water. The

city was completely flooded. The city lies in a flood plain so it was the same city that got in 2004 completely flooded and thousands of people were were killed by these floods because deforestation is the big problem there. People cut down the trees because they need energy to. That's their only source of energy and they know all about the forestation but they have absolutely no alternative. And so it's one of those things that Paul was talking about it's a situation that's created by. The situation that they have they live in they're forced to kind of do this and that as a result that means within the next four years going to I will certainly be flooded again in this way because there's nothing to stop the mud and water from raging down the mountains and in this case they got hit by hurricanes so. The city was just completely underwater. What were people asking for. People were asking for what's it worth why cliff. For those of you don't know why Cliff John is a very huge music star hip hop artist and he's very kind of musical genius who grew up in Haiti and

came to America and he is. Really represents hope for a lot of people there because he always comes back and he is very active going back and trying to start programs and help people and try and keep Haiti in the news as much as he can. So to be with him I mean people were just. Literally clinging to the U.N. truck that we were on hanging on. And as we were pulling away as we were leaving go and I just it just. It didn't even it wasn't even a rational thing it was just let me just stay close to you for a little while longer so one thing I think was. There was hope. But on a practical level people were starving and they needed food. And the World Food Program was there but. You know they were they they had enough food but they were worried about doing disciplined food distributions because people were so desperate that they were afraid the trucks were going to get torn apart and their workers were going to get assaulted and or hurt or there would be a you know of there would be food riots. And

so. There was no I mean I saw you the first rib before we went in. You had already been in go and I even you guys were doing. Food distribution which isn't even with Partners in Health does but that was kind of what the need was and so when we were there there was I think it was a quarter of a million people I'm going to eat who didn't have. Food. Regular regular food and and what the. World Food Program had done was I guess that a lot of kind of 600 lottery slots and I don't know how they determined. Who won the lottery but. The families they deemed more insecure somehow than others received these numbers and they would send the matriarch of the family out about a kilometer away outside of town in the middle of the night the distributions were done between 1:00 and 3:00 a.m. And these women would have to carry the food back and hope that they weren't robbed on the way home of their of their grounds. It was absurd really.

Linda Dursley an A for E. You are from a district where many Haitian Americans live. You're the second patient American in the state of Representatives here. How do you stay connected to Haiti. Well thank you. Amy first I want to thank the JFK Library for hosting us today and it's an honor to be part of this panel. I'm fresh generation American My parents immigrated here from Haiti in the late 60s and growing up you know they taught us how to speak Asian Creole and how to stay connected with the Haitian community. I am now honored to represent the 12 Suffolk district which has a large Haitian population. We know the Haitian diaspora are really in three major cities or states. It's Miami. It's New York and it's Massachusetts. And first of all in terms of the hurricanes. With. The structure. And. I think that is an important thing to discuss in terms of hurricanes will happen in Haiti. And as Matt mentioned you know getting the food distributed I'm sure the roads are in horrible condition. So when we're

talking. About how is it that we are going to help Haiti as Americans and especially President Obama and his administration. It is very hopeful because I believe that he understands the importance of Haiti being so close to us here in America 600 miles from our shores an hour and a half plane ride to Haiti. And it is something that we should care about and I know that folks in this room do care about it. I see children school groups who are here that's done so much for Haiti. Different churches but I think again. We have to look at. How is it. We're going to hold people responsible and accountable. And you know Dr. Farmer talked about NGOs there are several NGO is in Haiti. There's also the government the Haitian government. And so when we're talking about USA id the European countries Canada IMF Id be when they are sending funds to NGOs a lot of a majority of the money that goes into Haiti goes to NGOs. But what is going to the Haitian government again is Dr. Farmer said you know we're talking about public health

public education you know economic development economic structure. But how do you do that. How is it that we could get the Haitian Diaspora to invest in Haiti. Well we need a justice system. And I know Brian has been working hard on that. I think you know I am connected in Haiti My grandparents live with us here my grandmother but my grandpa my great aunt who lives with my parents you know she's in Haiti now she goes during the winter time. So she's there for six months and she'll return. But you know we connect with her on the phone and she gives us updates in terms of what's happening day to day in Port au Prince that's where she's located. And it's total chaos and that's what she says to us it is total chaos but she loves her country and so many people who have immigrated here love their Haiti and one day they hope to retire there. And so it is our mission and our hope. That coming together we will be able to figure out a solution and having the United States of America. Really approach Haiti in a more positive direction because over the years you know. Centuries really you know we

have been involved or the American government has been in involved in Haiti but has it always been on the positive in the positive light. No it has not. And so now we have a chance to move in that direction. The Haitian government has put together. A poverty reduction strategy paper over you know in 2007 about this should be the priority for Haiti. As Americans or as people who are investing in Haiti we shouldn't be cherry picking you know where we're going to put our funds. Let's take a look at this strategy and see if it's infrastructure let's focus on infrastructure. It's health care if it's education but everything has to happen and once at the same time because I think Haiti is the place that needs everything to go into it but it has to be accountability. It has to be about outcomes. It's not just sending money into Haiti and there's no follow up. No one's going in to inspect if someone's building a bridge then is it built. You know we're going to allocate money but there needs to be inspections. And for me you know it is. Being American and being a Haitian American

I am a. American politician. I'm not a Haitian politician but I am Haitian and I care about hating because of my background and because of the population I represent my district like I say the Haitian people will call me but people all over the Commonwealth will call me because I speak Asian Creole to talk about the issues that they're facing or their families back home. And how is it that they could work on getting them here to the United States. But again for us we need to focus on how we're going to stabilize Haiti stabilize the people in Haiti so they are able to provide a better life for themselves and their families. You know that is the bottom line. You know people immigrate here because there is no hope. But we need to work on China and still that hope and I know the work that these gentlemen has done on this panel you know they have done so much to bring the spotlight on Haiti and I think that is critical. So people could take notice and realize this country that is right here next to us. And if it doesn't appeal to you because of the hunger and the debt. And the kids who are suffering then in need then if that

doesn't it you know if that doesn't appeal to someone then look let's look at it in terms of homeland security. It is so close to the United States. If we don't invest in Haiti someone else will another country will. So we need to help and really help with direction and helping Haiti move. When I went out the disparity and how Haitians are treated when they attempt to come into this country and how Cubans are treated when they attempt to come into this country it's huge I mean that should be the first thing that President Obama does. Can you explain what happened. Basically what happens the Haitians will get on a boat on the shores of Florida a Cuban family member got to remember the little boy. But they will come here the Cubans will land or they're even in the middle of the ocean they will be accepted into a you know they will be accepted in Florida they will get they'll have their family coming get them. We as a Haitian will be caught in the waters. They are turned right around back to Haiti or if they make it to shore they are thrown in jail for years there are people that are sitting in

jail in Florida because they are Haitian. And that is why. Whereas the Cubans are like to go and re unite with their family. So that is absurd. I mean and I think that under the former administration. A lot of people you know the Congressional Black Caucus the Haitian diaspora and so many people came together to the Bush administration and say you know what let's grant CPS temporary protective status. Why can't we do that for Haitians that hurricanes have hit Haiti. This is a devastation. These people are escaping for a reason you know. And we need to give them protective status. Never happened under the administration. Never happened. Are you calling for that now. I am calling for us to take a look at Haitians who are here to take a look at how is it that we can give temporary status because Haiti is unstable. As Dr. Farmer will tell you when you're heading there tomorrow and I know Matt was there during the hurricanes I mean it is unstable and it is not safe. And so we need to figure out how is it that when we put money into Haiti and we talk about infrastructure or we talk about you

know job creation we need to be able to help the Haitian people sustain themselves here helping the Haitian government help the Haitian people. If we could do that people will not leave Haiti. If people have hope in Haiti they will not leave to come to the United States. It is a beautiful country. It is a beautiful country. And so we have work to do. Thanks. Edwidge Danticat the great writer Haitian-American writer wrote about her uncle who tried to come here was put at the Krome Detention Facility and Florida and only died there. Yeah he did. He died there. And so that is what people are facing when we talk about the inequities. When we talk about. You know just being from Haiti or being a Haitian person but this is a time where we're going to change that. And everyone who's here together working together bringing people to talk about this little island that has that you know this little island 600 miles from our shores. I mean it's so close and we have

an opportunity to do so much. Brian Concannon you're head of the Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti. You work in Oregon. In 2004 I went with a small delegation led by the Los Angeles Congress member Maxine Waters the former the founder of TransAfrica Randall Robinson and a very small plane but a very long ride to the Central African Republic where the Aristides had been dumped once again and pushed out of their country. When we rode back on the plane they had retrieved the heiress says the U.S. government was threatening that they should not return to their country to Haiti. President Aristide described to me the day March 2004 when he was forced out when the U.S. embassy representative went to his house he said he was the victim of a modern day kidnapping.

In a coup d'etat supported by the United States. You covered the first period when he was thrown out 2001 to 2004 you've continued to deal with justice issues. What is happening now around issues of accountability and the atrocities that have taken place there. Going back to 1980 between from 1904 until 2004 was Haiti's longest ever really only interlude of democracy up until that point. And we were using that period to make the justice system work for poor people and one of the things we were doing was prosecuting prominent cases from the 1900s in 1994 dictatorships. And it showed that democracy really works because we were able to bring several prominent cases. One of the cases called the Robert Sowle Massacre case is one of the best human rights prosecutions anywhere in the Americas. We're able to convict the top military and paramilitary leaders the highest ranked soldier ever deported from the U.S. to face human rights charges was deported in that case. And we were able to show that democracy works. Unfortunately in

2004 we were able to show well go back there's a Haitian there's a Haitian proverb called that says the Constitution is paper and the bayonet is steel. And that kind of describes most of Haitian history before 1994 where you got the constitutions of the law says and then whoever's got the guns or something else in the end he wins. And we were trying to prove that proverb wrong and we did for 10 years in 2004 because our president did not like Haiti's president's economic policies its elites economic policies that have that a failed us so badly. That that they kidnapped him it was literally put him on a plane. Before that though they also in his bomb engine under undermined the democratic government through a development assistance embargo which we call smart sanctions because they were really well directed at the Haitian poor by depriving them of food education health care and clean water. And they work people died and it brought the government to its knees. What was the program. It was it was there was there was a whole series of there's a development assistance embargo where the U.S. not only stopped

all bilateral assistance so U.S. assistance promised to the Haitian government. But we also stopped other people including the Inter-American Development Bank in the World Bank. We said no you can't give Haiti any of this money. And because the U.S. is the is the largest shareholder in those banks that worked. And why did they say that. They gave a whole series of reasons some of them were political some of them were economic The basic problem was was that it was as Paul mentioned it was a government that was representing the poor and doing what the poor wanted not what the United States wanted. And so we needed to bring it to its knees that we brought it to its knees weren't able to actually overthrow the government. So then that's when we did go in and and kidnap the President. When that happened you didn't know we we had. Did. I did yes because I was paying taxes to the government that did it. And we all were and I think that's very important to understand when you talk about Haiti. The causes of Haiti's problems are complex but. One cause to most of Haiti's major problems is US

policy for the last 200 years and I think that as Americans we need to acknowledge that. And that that acknowledgment brings responsibility to do something about. It. But to get back to your question starting in 2006 Democracy was again restored as interesting with Polish mention the democratic elections he didn't mention the 2006 elections which is might as being one of the Democratic ones I think it is ambiguous I think there's lots of there lots of good things about it especially the presidential election. There are lots of ways it was not democratic especially the parliamentary elections. But the but Haiti has been kind of back into a democratic transition you have a generally considered to be an elected president one of the problems is that the that the elected president. And this is when you're talking to people on the street. They elected him based on a very progressive political platform to provide health care to provide education to you know provide

establish the government services that we all fortunately take it take for granted in the United States and he's governing far to the right of that and in part of that that's because he's. He thinks he needs to. Police. The people in Haiti that planned the last coup. But also I think a large part of his thinking needs to be he needs to police the United States. Hopefully what he needs to police the United States changed quite a bit. On Tuesday we'll find out that I think it's extremely important for the Obama administration to make it a clean break. You know the new the Obama administration has said over and over that it's time to to make a clean break with the past and the failed past policies in rarely have. Nowhere else have the policies been has been failed as badly as they have in Haiti over the last eight years. And I think the Obama administration needs to step up to the plate and say we're really changing things in Haiti. And to to say say from the very beginning that they're going to accept the democratically elected officials of Haiti whether they like those officials perm.

Personally whether they like those policies or not. We're going to say we're respecting the rules of the democratic game. And if that happens I think Katie's got a great opportunity to to move forward just as it did from 1994 to 2004. And I can talk from from the justice standpoint Paul can talk about a lot of things that hit Haiti was was ahead of almost every other country in a lot of AIDS and Infectious Diseases. It had you know we take for granted and so many of us breathe a sigh of relief on Tuesday when there was a transfer of power from an elected president to another elected president. He's That's only happened twice again and we need that happen in one thousand in one thousand nine hundred six. And then again in 2001 and we need to make sure that happens again the next election in my reactions after that on that issue of justice and Haiti and justice. Just the whole area of justice there. There are courts. How does it operate now and what do you think how can they be supported and what

they're doing. That's a very good question in a very important one. They say if you've got a hammer in your hand every problem looks like a nail and you've got a lawyers license every problem looks like a legal problem. But if you look at the roots of Haiti's problems a lot of the roots do go back to the justice system and even even the hurricanes which obviously you can't do a lawsuit against a hurricane coming in. But the damage from the hurricanes Cuba got hit much worse by the hurricanes in Haiti did the damage was a tiny percentage of it because they have trees because they have a civil defense and one of the reasons why he doesn't have trees and part of his economic that people are forced to cut down trees to eat that night. But another part is is legal there are laws against cutting down trees and you certainly can't enforce it against someone who's starving to death but you can enforce against commercial waters. And it's not being enforced. If you look at it as buildings that collapsed school buildings it collapsed in in October and it was horrible over a hundred school kids died. That to a large extent is a failure or a failure of the law. And so the the basic problem with Haiti's justice system is for

most of Haiti's history over three hundred fifty years going back to the to the slave ocracy. The justice system has as has developed to please whoever's in power which was mostly dictatorships and. It tends to respond to Evers got the guns in the money not the majority of people in Haiti you have neither guns nor money. And one of the things that we were able to do again between 1994 and 2004 was to force open the courthouse doors. You need to do quite and we certainly did not. Change the system to become completely responsive but we were. There were lots of programs to train judges. There were programs to build up courthouses to get them books just kind of basic nuts and bolts things that make the difference between having a dictatorship justice system and a democratic justice system. And it really worked. Again you know we showed as part of the showing that a. By and it is still the Constitution is paper. Once that coup happened in 2004 all that work God erased everybody was in jail legitimately got let out and the jail cells were refilled with political prisoners because we had a dictatorship in there which

is going back to to what the previous dictatorships are done. And also in the dictatorship. This wasn't something certain just happened in a foreign country. We took a vice president out and we put in a guy who was literally a talk show host in Boca Raton Florida and a George Bush supporter we said OK your prime minister and and you're running the country. And he was as red letter too was his name. He's back in South Florida and as you mentioned accountability I mean there certainly is a need to prosecute him. There's also a need to go after and this is something that I know is controversial throughout the. The Obama administration in terms of how much we're going to go after the Bush administration or people who are involved in criminal activity in the Bush administration. I think it's certainly important to go after the people the Bush administration who were involved in the kidnapping of President Aristide. There's you know there's certainly reason to say well. And a lot of people are saying well we need to move on to do positive things we can't get mired in the past. The problem with

that and this is certainly what everybody hate is thinking is if you don't if you don't punish people for acting illegally they're going to do it again. And so as long as those those misdeeds go unpunished people are going to do that. There is a man who is here in jail but not because of the number of people he killed in Haiti and manual Constanza who ultimately was. Really protected here under several administrations and was imprisoned only because he got involved with a mortgage scam. He was convicted of mortgage fraud. And actually the irony of it for I spent years trying to get him deported so we could face track his behavior as he was a mental Constand he was the head of frap which was the the biggest death squad in Haiti between 1991 and 1904. And we actually convicted him in a case in 2004 and we spent all this time trying to trying to get him back to Haiti to face justice. We convicted in him in absentia. And it wasn't until he got arrested on a mortgage fraud and he was looking at real serious time that then the federal government came in an actual Department of Homeland Security came to his trial in New York to his

hearings and said said to the judge oh we think you should give him this real sweetheart plea deal where time served he gets to leave so he can go back to Haiti. And the only reason why they did it was because they knew that the Haitian justice system was no longer capable of of retaining him. Fortunately this is another good sign of grassroots pressure. We worked with the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York which has a lot of great work on Haiti and other issues to put political pressure but also legal pressure we gave legal briefs and other information about what Mr. Constanta done in Haiti. And the judge agreed with us he went against the recommendation of Department of Homeland Security and the New York state prosecutor and said I'm throwing out this plea deal. We're going to trial. And he's now got I think a 12 year sentence which should certainly give the Haitian justice system time to get ready to to give him the welcome he deserves. He had been on the payroll of the CIA he had the reason why he was protected was he had been even on the payroll of the CIA. And in fact he was actually ordered deported in 1994. And you know when I was

talking about about deportations of Haitians normally before a deportation order is dry the Haitians are back in Haiti. And this guy was was allowed to stay for 10 years because he was a CIA asset because his death squad to death squad activities were actually done with the advice of the consent of of our intelligence community. The.