WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Super Bowl ads are the most expensive TV real estate in town and often the most controversial. And this year promises to be no exception. Already there is plenty of creepy game analysis of the small screen spots from the anti-abortion ad that is stealing the spotlight to the Dept. of homoerotic spot that has been banished to the Internet. The recession is also playing a role as major players such as Pepsi and FedEx are taking their business online exclusively. Well technological advances paired with the stalled economy be a game changing moment for the advertising business or will the volume of ads nearly 40 brands packed into one night. Level the playing field will top off the hour with an examination of one of literature is most enduring books Catcher In The Rye. Up next on the calico show Mad Men execs and Holden Caulfield. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Another Toyota vehicle is the target of a US PROUD. NPR's Brian Naylor reports the

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is now investigating antilock brake problems on the 2010 Prius says it's received one hundred twenty four reports from Prius owners including four alleging that crashes occurred. The safety agency says the reports allege a momentary loss of braking capability while traveling over an uneven road surface pothole or bump. The Japanese government has announced a similar investigation the hybrid Prius is are made in Japan. Company officials say they rewrote the software to deal with the reported braking problems in December. Toyota says the true recalls of other models now underway because of sudden acceleration problems will cost the company more than one billion dollars. Brian Naylor NPR News Washington. New unemployment applications are up for the fourth time in five weeks according to the Labor Department the number of people who file for jobless insurance for the first time rose last week by 8000 to a seasonally adjusted 400 80000. The jump was

higher than economists had expected. Shelter is fast emerging as the biggest problem in Haiti where large numbers of Haitians are still homeless because of last month's earthquake. NPR's David Schaper has more from Port au Prince with hundreds of thousands of Haitians staying and sleeping outdoors many under improvised shelters of sheets blankets tarps or corrugated tin and others just out in the open. The Haitian government and various aid organizations are working toward developing a shelter strategy. Tony Banbury the number two official in the U.N. peacekeeping mission here says the plan initially focuses on providing transitional shelter plastic sheeting and timber to allow people to construct some type of basic shelter in their own homes or on the land. Where their homes used to sit this weekend aid groups will begin distributing these more durable shelter kits in many of the impromptu camps that have sprung up around the Haitian capital. But Banbury says shelter will continue to be a big problem for a long time to come. David Schaper NPR News Port au Prince.

Food is beginning to reach more Haitian communities today more than three weeks after the quake and a writ out of the Christian relief group World Vision says emergency supplies were held up in part because some neighborhoods are largely controlled by gangs and are dangerous. You cannot just go into a neighborhood and pray right now but you need to read to the people you need to go with the likely think you know their own community. You know it is to identify them they undergo the Haiti earthquake killed an estimated 200000 people and displaced millions. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average down more than 200 points at ten thousand fifty seven Nasdaq down 51 21 40. This is NPR News. Republican Senator elect Scott Brown is cleared to fill the seat left vacant by the late Democrat Edward Kennedy. Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick has certify the results of the special election in which Brown defeated Democrat Martha Coakley. Brown is expected to be sworn in later

today as the forty first Republican in the Senate. The number the GOP needs to filibuster administration initiatives such as health care overhaul. Two giant pandas are on their way to China where they will be part of the government's effort to repopulate the species. One of them Malan left Atlanta this morning as Jim Burress of member station WABE reports the farewell ceremony was fit for royalty. Born three years ago at Zoo Atlanta Mahlon proved one of the zoo's most popular attractions housed in a specially made crate for the trip. The Panda did backflips for the crowd of onlookers before boarding a giant FedEx cargo plane. Once onboard Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed bed the panda unofficial farewell Maylon. We thank you for the memories. And for the profound and positive. Thank you we had on our city. You will be gone but always remembered. Maylon made a stop in Washington to pick up cousin Tayshaun from the Smithsonian National

Zoo. The pandas only recognize commands in English so part of the acclimation process once they arrive in Chengdu includes teaching them Chinese. For NPR News I'm Jim barista in Atlanta. Employers may not be hiring but they are getting more out of the workers they do have. The government announced today that productivity rose by six point two percent in the fourth quarter exceeding analysts expectations. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation informing health reform with policy research data and expert commentary on the web at health reform. Dot org. Thank you. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show to lend your voice to the conversation give us a call. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 with Super Bowl Sunday around the corner we're taking a look at how the

economy technology and social media are changing the way corporations get the brand out from tweeting and texting to interactive and internet only. Advertising has entered the real time zone and a new reality for a look at where these latest trends are heading. We're turning to Boston's best brains in the business. Roger Bell Dutchy is the executive vice president and the executive creative director of our old world why Edward Bocelli is the chief creative officer and chief social media officer at Mullen and Martha Kagan. She's the managing director of espresso and international ad agency with a foot in Boston. Are you a Super Bowl ad junkie. Are these spots hype or high performance. Give us a call 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Roger Bell Dutchy and were both chosen Martha Kagan. Welcome. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. I think it's fair to say that most of my friends would say this is as close as I get to a sports conversation.

Otherwise I'm just totally not interested but I love the Super Bowl. OK. You started. Love the Super Bowl ad So this is just a great conversation to have and of course it's the bread and butter for all of you. But this year's been a little rough for folks who are wanting to advertise in what is arguably the most weld watched sports event in the country every year and to the effect that even though CBS announce that they've sold out all of the ads they've sold every single ad in the spot you know for ridiculous amounts of money. We will discuss it. They have to sell it for cheaper. So what ads that would have gone 30 second ads that would have gone for three million went for two and a half million. Want to get your guys take on that. What what do you think that means and is this a trend. Is it never going back up or it's just a moment in time. Well I think a supply and demand. This is actually only the second time in history that's ever happened that a price has gone down from a previous year 3 million. But I think it's certainly a factor of the economy. Number one fewer people want to write a check that big to run an ad and

I think the other side of it is there's a lot more options I'm not sure everybody is 100 percent convinced that television advertising is the is the best and only option look was pulled out Pepsi FedEx other brands who were standards in the Super Bowl have passed this year right and they can afford it. You know that's that's the other thing too is the return on your investment. Is that really wise. It's you know to reach 96 million viewers. For that do you get the right cost per dollar. I don't know that it makes sense for everybody. There are certainly strategies the brands have to launch a new product or something like that but with the economy the way it is it makes sense that you know people will take a step back a little bit more. MARTIN I think you can even economy aside the fact that there are so many more choices is a major factor. You know 10 20 30 years ago we had what 4 5 channels really to pursue as advertisers and now there's 30 40 and every day there's new ones popping up so I think advertisers even the ones that have the

dollars to spend on it are taking a second look and wondering is this the best way to reach the people that I want to reach. Now when you say there's many more choices what do you mean exactly. Because I know you're the queen of nontraditional. Well yeah I mean digital technology social technology in particular has exploded. The options everything from YouTube and Facebook and Twitter and all the many social platforms but even beyond that the opportunity to engage with folks in a user generated content capacity the opportunity to tie off line on line in really unique and different ways and we're seeing some of this year's advertisers do that which will be interesting to watch. But just from choice alone I don't think anybody's putting all their all their bets on TV ads anymore. I think there's another interesting factor there were and those are really good points that Martha makes I want her name because we want to I so this is it. This is Edward Edward bogus from Holland. And what strikes me is that. Building on that thought where we used to be the medium and the channels and the broadcast networks that control the conversation and now of course it is the consumer and there are so many ways in which individuals can

stimulate conversation engage in conversation generate the content themselves that that word of mouth in the dialogue begins there becomes in many cases as important and as influential as anything that happens in a traditional medium and I think the best example of course is Pepsi which pull 20 million dollars out of the Super Bowl and said we're instead going to fund community is social and not social because we value the fact that what they decide becomes important as content and conversation is essential to our brand. Let's take a listen to what Pepsi is doing online this year. I've always been very convicted of that one. That's the reason I'm here is because my mom is here. I don't like some people won't agree. Yeah we're going to come back to that. I want to follow your point in that what they're doing is online creating this community as you say and they decided that it was best done in a space that they think that the demographic they're going for is really attuned to. Yes correct.

Absolutely. Also advertisers and marketers primarily figure that their content worth their messages that they deliberate and I think now their content is as much the behavior and the participation that they stimulate because that builds affinity for a brand that builds preference it builds involvement it also creates opportunities to learn and listen from a from a target market and decide subsequent efforts. OK we got that Pepsi ad now. Don't you because we want to be the place where the in the middle and then you go to try to come to kill me. Let's set to

live together. What do you care. Introducing the Pepsi Refresh. We're giving away millions for ideas to move the world for every Pepsi refreshers. Up one plus one. OK so Roger that really gets to me we're all dancing here. So you have been putting out a lot and exactly. Yeah I mean I think Edward said it you know what do you care about. It's just a bigger platform where you can engage more with your consumers that's not just doing a commercial and getting the highest ad meter anymore or doing a sassy commercial everyone knows what Pepsi is right it's carbonated sugar water. But to have a bigger platform a world stage would when you can gauge with consume not only consumers just everybody around the world interact in different venues it's just a better message for Pepsi in really a lot of marketers are doing that as well. To go beyond just simple advertising. Now part of this is timing is important too and it happens at a time where people are focused on

trying to help Haiti so I imagine some of what they will get will be some ideas about how to help in that situation. Yeah it is definitely appropriate and smart of them to follow me miss if you will that's very relevant to current events and what people what's on people's brains anyway. And I think the other thing that is smart about this to build on Edwards point is the trust factor. You know there's tons of research out there for instance last year Nielsen did a study on trust in advertising that says people trust recommendations from their friends more than any other form of advertising. And then second in line the second most trusted is comments posted by a total stranger. But again comments from other folks and so down the list comes TV advertising in print and digital and all the other stuff that we do. So from the standpoint of knowing that what you're putting out there is going to be trusted more. That's also extremely smart. Now this year people have an opportunity to vote on. Some of these ads courtesy of Mullen right here in Boston tell us what you're doing. Well what we're trying to do is something pretty interesting which is a combination of the fact that the Super Bowl still

is a big advertising venue it's one of the only destination television shows where people go for the ads. But to the fact that we're living in this social media environment so we have this idea which was hey what people ought to do besides watch the ads they want to talk about them and they want to riff off them or they want to December they want to celebrate them. So we created a Web site it's called Brand Bowl 2010 dot com. And from that site you can tweet your comments about the commercials. But perhaps more interestingly you can see in close to real time the entire Twitter sphere is reaction to commercials as they run and therefore you can measure both the volume of chatter as well as the sentiment you know positive to negative will have some word clouds and some other capabilities built in so it's sort of a fun idea to see if we can bring together actually old media and new media and do something that everyone will have a have a good time with. I've told everybody that during the elections when I watch the debates I watch Current

TV which ran tweets on the bottom in real time which I found very interesting that people that could you pay attention and watch the tweets but actually it's quite easy to do it. Consider myself so technologically savvy. So I think you've got a good idea here. Helping So we'll find out we'll find out reaction to that as well. Well you know not to just give you so much credit but you did have a good idea. In 1999 I want to play this ad that was a mullen created ad that I think is hilarious that ran in the Super Bowl. But I grow my own file for a clown and we have middle management being replaced on a whim. Oh you have a brown nose I want to be a yes me yes woman. Yes. They're coming say anything for a raise. Finance. A few go up I want to be under appreciated. A draft pick given the change you want to be forced into early retirement. These are the kinds of risks that thing is though Larry is in it's

1999 it still holds up. Yeah it does it's on every top 10 list forever if I ever take it off the agency real which is you know the show Real People always ask where is it they're still they still want to see it and it was from Monster dot com which you want to get that last call OK. And it was all simple though that that's what I love about it. It's a simple concept. It's not big high production It wasn't talking animals or fireworks. Just a simple idea that resonates that connected with people and that's why I remember you know years later. OK one of the ones that people are saying already that that is going to be a tough one this year is from Denise So I want to play this it. It's going to want to spoil anyone Sunday but I've an important message for you chicken shop there. Get out of town do a bit of chicken vacations don't you have any personal destruction. Tell your boss you're cured. Do whatever it takes. I love that one because they're running a big ad about Grand Slam breakfast as talk of speaking to your point about just

a simple idea. It's just great. Chickens get out of town. It's over for you. It's a great way to sample the product and millions of people can have a free breakfast and who in one one want to take part of that. OK when we come back let's talk about some controversy in the Super Bowl ads. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show we're talking about Super Bowl spectacular not the sport but the spots the famous ads that graced the small screen and the online world every year. What are your favorite ads of Super Bowls past do you look forward to these spots or do you prefer to sit them out. Give us a call 8 7 7 3 0 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We're back after this break. Us. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Boston Lyric Opera.

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Joining us for an insider's take on this year's spectacle is Roger Bell Dutchy. He's executive vice president and executive creative director of Arnold Worldwide. Edward Boateng is the Creech chief creative officer and chief social media officer at Mullen and Martha Kagan is the managing director of espresso and international ad agency with the foot in Boston. What's your favorite ad. What have you seen on line this year as a consumer do these ads do it for you. Give us a call of 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Well I think in the past if there have been controversy of about ads it's are they bad really. You know and you know were they offensive in some way but from a taste level. But this year Roger I have to say we've got something going on that's a little bit different. There is an ad that CBS has accepted which features Tim Thibeault and his mother and I want to just have a few little comments from Tim Thibeault before we discuss it.

I've always been very convicted of that one. And that's the reason I'm here is because my mom is a very courageous woman. Some people won't agree with him you know. But I think they can always respect that. And I stand up for what I believe. OK so this ad that features Tim T-Bone his mother as I said she made a decision years ago that she would not have an abortion even though doctors recommended that her life was in danger. And so of course the result of him depo and he's quite hardy and hail and a football player and I'm sorry I don't know what team because I already told you I don't know sports. OK. But anyway this is this is a message ad in a way that we've not seen before what do you think about that. Is this proper. Well I think it can be OK if there is a balance. I mean if you balance off with the man crunch ad that they did not accept. OK so let's talk about that man crunch offered an ad which was for a gay Internet site which featured two men kissing hands meeting in the Frito Lay Bowl or whatever and then they ended up kissing and CBS rejected it. So go ahead.

Right I just think there's got to be some balance it's OK if they want to you know air that kind of message if they paid for that it's not clear if they paid for it or not. They they offered to pay in cash. First CBS said you know you don't have enough money and they said OK we'll pay for it in cash because they want to pay on credit originally and then they said no no no we're not. We're not taking it period. Yeah I just think first of all I don't think it will resonate. You know during the Super Bowl I think it will get lost in all the hype around and we're talking about right now right all the controversy will get you know a lot of third party you know hype about it but. I just think it smacks of an agenda. And I'm not sure it's right. You know from that environment it says something about CBS Corporation and who they're talking to. And I just don't think that's the right venue for personally and Martha it should be said that there are a number of women's groups particularly that have offered wanted to have protested this and wanted to have something of an ad that would go against this would be in opposition of this and they've not they've been turned down and CBS is saying no

we're not having it so what do you think about it. Well I am a huge sports fan myself in spite of that. I think the Super Bowl if you look at the lineup of advertisers and the ads that have shown over the years and I'm making a generalization here but it reinforces a great deal of massage. Yeah this is a reality. I think it's a little bit odd that there's you know this pro-life ad more or less juxtaposed against beer commercials and the Go Daddy ladies with their low cut tops and you know it's just an interesting mix. But at the same time we live in a democratic nation presumably and there's freedom of speech here and so there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to air that. Well CBS changes policy because before they would have taken this kind of ad but I guess the larger question is do you want to have this in an entertainment venue. I mean is this. After this is and I would presume that every year people are going to have offer up more and more of this kind of advertising would you not agree.

I think they probably will and you know personally I love controversy so I think it's great and it's interesting and I think it's just as interesting to see what happened with the rejected ads and how much buzz they're getting is as a result of the rejection so I say bring it out and keep keeps us on our toes. You could make the argument this is the whole thing is really as much for PR as it is for the forever test because I agree with Roger. If there weren't all the PR around this the sport would get lost in the midst of what will unlikely undoubtedly be better executions and more entertaining advertising. But any time you run something on the Super Bowl the fact alone that you are doing that becomes a story. So this is much intentional PR thinking behind the purchasing of the spot as there is buying of a target audience. And by the way there are some other band. Ads and they are making hay from it. One of them is the Go Daddy as you mention. There's a couple of go that is one that's going to be I guess aired but they tamp it down the other one is some woman ripping off her shirt and then

there's another one featuring and a feminine actor playing or maybe he's not a feminist he's playing in a feminine football player. And they said no we're not we're not putting that on so everybody is running to online and look at him. So there it's almost like they didn't have to pay for I'm right is that the strategy to get kicked off the Super Bowl like oh everybody knows that GoDaddy makes spots every year intentionally. It will be rejected just so they can have the story and as even somebody I forget who it is who did a spot they knew would be rejected and they never actually even paid for the air time and they were getting the buzz it's the one with the one with the guys heads up there. Oh well let's not. Family show him you know right now. It is. I wanted to go back to your point about us being very careful about the PR around. Whatever you do in an ad even if you're trying to be intentionally nasty or not. But Audi is one of the broadcast ads this year and I just want to take a listen to this because there's some controversy about this. The rule doesn't only apply to sandwiches. It also applies to one burrito one slice of pizza

one swarm a one meatball hero one hoagie one sloppy joe one Panini one hamburger one Caledon one Reuben one po boy or one fish taco. Look if everyone followed this room more than a billion pounds of napkins could be saved from landfills each year now is going to be it's no joke with a green please. And we're hitting the streets February 7th. Consider yourselves one. OK. I stupidly This is the green you know about the economy about not using up so many napkins so he lists all those sandwiches. But this is a buy out. It's based in Germany and the green police were the Nazis. So there's been a fair amount of chatter out in the blogosphere about HELLO was anybody in that meeting. I mean how does this happen. Not the best choice of words perhaps to call that. But it's an interesting message and you know we talked about it earlier. The venue is always about entertainment. You can get messages out like that in New You see a lot of car companies are doing new product rollouts and that's a great way to reach 96 million people to get that fact out

there but I like to be in that meeting too where they say Let's call this. Yeah I mean they pay us two and a half or three million dollars for an ad we're people are mad about a message that they weren't trying to send. That seems to be I don't understand how that happened it's unfortunate counterproductive. You know for what they're trying to do they're trying to put that great green message out there. And it's unfortunate that it's taken that turn. I mean that's another thing too where I don't know if the average person would have picked up on that. But we have people talking about it and blogging about it and that you know creates a life of its own and then people do react and say you know what I don't like that that's that's that's really wrong. But clearly it was an innocent mistake. I mean listen let's face it there's no there's no way anybody who had an inkling of knowledge would ever allow that to go. What I find interesting is there's actually a huge opportunity now in this for Audi to take that yes and turn it on its heads and and actually come forth and admit a mistake and provide some information about it and make some statements etc. I haven't

seen that kind of reaction from them yet but I think all of us in communications have learned that you know quick reaction and confronting something head on being honest and open and transparent about it is the best course of action. So they should have done that would you guys if this if this had happened to any one of you is that what course you would have said. We found out about it on the moment one blog post would have hit we would have issued in an in apology told the real story of how that came to be what the intentions were and then we would have found a way to try to balance it for example you know do you make a donation to the Holocaust Museum do you. I mean is there something that you can actually do with it says Mayor culpa. Clearly it wasn't intentional but at the same time we want to acknowledge the reaction and the importance of that reaction. OK now I have a question that's going to hit you professionals where you live Doritos for the second time is asking consumers just your average folks come up with an ad and if you come up with one that you know that people vote on and like Will they can earn a

million dollars or $600000 depending on how how many people view it and say it's a great ad. Last year two unemployed brothers did in a film and they want to million dollars. What do you think about that. I think everyone should be able to make as much money as well I mean. Roger what do you think about that. I don't know about that. I mean I think it's interesting and I think if it works right for the brand Why not. It's great I mean I think we're all pretty secure in what we do and experts and what we what we do for a living but it makes sense for it to read Oh so it's a fun product you talk to a young audience that would do that. Why not. You know it's something we're doing for progressive insurance's help flow dot com where you can post your videos and be a sidekick and you could you know Enter to win to be her psychic and be on a commercial with Flo in the Progressive commercials and so that's kind of a hybrid right where getting people to post their videos and why they should be on there. But it's tied to the messaging that is tied to sort of our brand promise so I don't have that much of a problem with it

generally. I should be clear that redoes has some professional ads on as well they for which they paid a lot of money because I think they're one of the biggest buyers for the Super Bowl. But in addition to that they have these consumer generated ads so I guess it's a little bit of the hybrid thing that you're doing guys they're hedging their bets a little bit. Exactly. There's a couple things that I don't think everybody understands. I think anybody can think of a funny TV commercial. I mean we all grew up watching the media and we make videos now we upload them to you know have a secret I couldn't be very boring but you can tell. Your body has the ability to think of a commercial but people don't realize is some kid wrote that commercial. But he didn't do the casting or hire the production company logo on the shoe. Only the edit sessions or pick the sound track or do the mix or the color correction or everything else that makes that spot end up being really professional So there's yeah. Someone you know put out an idea and it was selected. That being said however I think that user generated content is terrific that all of us are going to learn how to embrace it better. And I don't

think that we need it in order to come up with better ideas than we can come up with although in many cases it may be so. The reason to do it is consumers want to participate in a brand's definition and voice and through that participation they become more loyal. Not only that through that participation you hear in their words their own expressions of affection for a brand and it again informs your own thinking for how you should talk about a brand give it voice or persona. If setter I think that whatever we call this co-creation crowdsourcing user generated content a big part of the future and agencies and marketers should be embracing it wholeheartedly. MARTIN How do you feel about it because I don't know that I care to be a part of my favorite brand of ketchup. Well maybe not ketchup but I'm sure there's something in your life some product that touches you in a way that you would want to be engaged with more. But I think Edward is right I think I think that crowd sourced or user generated whatever we use as a label for this is

forcing professionals to to think differently to be more creative I think it's great for us actually and it's one of the most exciting times in the industry to be involved in that happening. And I think there's more and more brands proving that marketing with your target as opposed to marketing at them is an extremely extremely successful and cost effective way to approach it. I'm writing that down. OK. But I think that sometimes well sometimes it's not always so. So explicit or directed for example with McDonald's we found a clip on YouTube where two comedians rapping about McNabb gets I want to get you all. And that came to the attention of us and McDonald's and we said well let's put this on here this is great. So we didn't direct people to do that. They did it on their own so McDonald's and brace that we have embraced that is said we're saying and we put that out there. So it was tremendously successful so it really can work both ways as long as everyone accepts it and understands it and has fun with it.

Guys like Roger steal ideas from you too all the time. Oh I see. Yes I think you're too RIGHT NOW MY GOD. Now we talked about the controversy and the controversial ads that have maybe a message that is a little too intense but they have been also a history of ads that have kind of a social consciousness about them. I'm thinking about when I don't know if you guys remember this from last year where it was death people and they were doing the whole commercial was in sign language. There were two guys in a car and they were doing sign language to each other and they were saying to each in the in the the script on the bottom said I thought you know where it was he says no I thought you know where it was and they obviously were lost trying to figure out where the Super Bowl party was. And so then the next clip the next thing you see them land on the horn and every light on the street came on except one. And then the guy says There it is. And that's the house they went to and I just love that it was funny. Now unfortunately I don't remember what the product was which I believe defeats your purpose right. And that's part of the problem with the Super Bowl. If you spend all that money and it does get lost

in the fray with big advertisers particularly Budweiser when they have five spots on there are the car companies so I agree with you I love the message. I don't know if the Super Bowl is a right venue for that meticulous because there's so much action and partying going on and you want that entertainment but if you don't remember the brand that's a tie remember the end though. You remember that. So maybe I'll google that. OK. All right now how do you what are your favorites. I mean people are already saying what the favorites are going to be even though they haven't been aired yet many of them but you probably you guys probably have an inside track. So right now what would you predict would be the favorites. I'm going to assume Coca-Cola one of their happiness as maybe the one with the Simpson this could be could be great I don't think that's been released yet. No it hasn't I haven't seen it. And so I'm going to guess that there will also be some terrific blood spots even though they're formulaic even though they have the same visual they Boringly I must tell you. Well once in a while there's a formula something funny there's a visual reveal at the end.

It's a visual joke and you expect it and you know what's coming. But because you know it's coming. If it's so clever that it still catches you off guard then it gets a couple of points in my book but on grammar and for Coca-Cola. OK Martha what do you think. Well being a lifetime fan of Chevy Chase I think the Home Away ads. I'm hoping that I'm not disappointed in that it's not a sad return but I'm looking forward to seeing vacation reincarnated. Well the teasers look a little boring Martha I must tell you. Yes I can be done but I'm loyal. OK Roger and by the way that ad that I love was for Pepsi and Pepsi is how you know it isn't as interesting. Go ahead I'm with Edward Koch in this strategy is such a great strategy it's perfect for that venue. The ads they've been doing in the past and they've been doing also some great viral things that I've been saying online is just great. It's going to be produced really well and it's going to be I think well accepted because you're already working with The Simpsons and you know the longest

sitcom ever and that's your branding. That's branding is you know COBRA and people love The Simpsons people love the COSI put those together in the humor will be amazing. Will be fun. Well it was fun talking to all three of you and it's nice to have these Boston brains who've been so involved in these in this kind of advertising. Next year same time same place we've been talking about the new world of advertising with a preview of this Sunday's Super Bowl spots. Roger Bell Dutchy Edward bocce as Martha Kagan thank you for Auld for joining us. And coming up a look at one of literature's most enduring not endearing teens Holden Caulfield. We'll be back after this break stay tuned to a nine point seven. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Sony Classical. And the

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WGBH. If you trust public radio to review important issues federal health officials are urging all Americans to get vaccinated against the flu and by the art of storytelling that's been acquired we don't like what we're going to show to my hometown. Don't forget to renew your support to eighty nine point seventy seven. You can we you your support any time by clicking on the donate button at WGBH to Florida. Why why why eighty nine point seven because of programs you won't hear anywhere else like the world. How much of Afghanistan right now is built up around corrupt deals. The new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show Holden Caulfield is one of literature his most influential protagonist from his red Hunter's cap to his disdain for all things

phony. He has been the alter ego for teenagers for over half a century. For a look at the power of Catcher In The Rye we're joined by Alicia and stead and huge Inco Alicia instead is the editor in chief of the performing arts magazine Inside arts and the online editor of The Harvard arts beat eugène CO is a professor of English at Wellesley College. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Hi Kelly. Now we should say that we're taking another look at Catcher In The Rye to remind people that J.D. Salinger the author of The Book died at age 91 last week and his death just stirred all kinds of conversation about the book once again. So let's begin with just your telling me how you all responded to the book. Sure. I still remember very very vividly what it was like when I first read Catcher In The Rye. As with a lot of adolescent boys it was a transformative experience. I had never ever read a book that was as consoling. And what was so consoling was that I think I should say everybody I think in their adolescence goes through a period when you think

of yourselves in the way that he describes Hamlet which is a sad screwed up type guy. And what was so consoling was that the novel was written in that voice. And then on top of that it addressed you directly with in such an intimate voice. So he was speaking to you. Right right Alicia. I didn't read this book until I was in college and part of the reason maybe because I went to an all girls Catholic high school I don't know if the book resonated for the teachers in that high school. But when I read it in college it also didn't stay with me. The books I read around it were much more compelling to me for exactly the reasons this book was compelling to huge and in his experience. So I was more interested in to the lighthouse by Virginia Woolf invisible man. Their Eyes Were Watching God My Antonia.

I was looking for a different type of voice. By the time I hit college adolescence was really over for me and I wanted to be away from that type of voice so it wasn't a meaningful voice in my life. I understood its literary place but it didn't ring my bell. So we should say that that everybody agrees that the book really is about adolescence and not about this one particular team but about adolescence in general. You know the great. Oh absolutely and and I understand Kelly's point of view. I mean I live just like you because this is and I think there's a gender divide in response to some degree. This is boy interrupted right. It's not Girl Interrupted. And it appeals to poison and appeals to a very male sensibility. Right. The portrait of the women in the. Novel is really colored by a very male perspective so that you have who are as and as children which is part of that age

old dichotomy between the horde and Madonna that you see in the male imagination so even for an adolescent novel like this one you see those kinds of gender dynamics in operation. Well I have to tell you that's why I just absolutely did nothing for me. Now I wondered if I was living in like a little Cosby world and so the whole alienation and rejection even though I was you know mad at my parents for a lot. It just did not ever grab me I just couldn't get why this was so important to so many people so I guess maybe you're explaining it to me. But I would also add you know a listener wants to jump in. But I would also add though that it gave voice to a reality that hits you like a blast of fresh air because it had not been at least for me represented in literature before then. OK Alicia. Well I want to add to the idea of alienation because I did feel alienated as a teenager but there were other books that that I turn to that were more connected to the experience I was

going through and even though I wasn't a drug addict or you know I didn't suffer from mental problems I loved Go Ask Alice for instance and I loved the bell jar and easy to yell jar and I could talk and see the outsiders these were books that as a young girl I related to Holden Caulfield didn't seem to tell my story and as I reflect back on him now as an adult with the experiences that I have I see the objectification of the women in the book. And it distances me and yet I agree that in a way it's a manual for adolescence if we lost all of our other books about adolescence and God knows there are a gazillion of them floating around out there and this was the only archival work left. I think that we would have a pretty clear picture of what adolescence in the middle and middle of the 20th century looked like. I know how you are about language so I wonder if you just read just a tiny bit from the book so

people can. Hear the voice that we're talking about. Sure and I think that we should say that the style of this book is is very conversational. It's first person narration by Holden Caulfield and the section that I want to read is toward the end of the book. The book takes place as you know in only about a 24 hour period excuse me 48 hour period. And at this point Holden Caulfield is wandering around New York he decides to go into the Natural History Museum and he's reflecting on his experience in that museum. Here's Holden. The best thing though in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody had moved. You could go there 100000 times and that Eskimo would still be just finishing catching those two fish the birds would still be on their way south the deer's would still be drinking out of that water hole with their pretty antlers and their pretty skinny legs. And that squall with the naked bosom would still be waving that same blanket.

Nobody would be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be so much older or anything it wouldn't be that exactly you'd just be different that's all you'd have an overcoat on this time. Or the kid that was your partner in the line the last time he got scarlet fever and you have a new partner or you'd have a substitute taking the class instead of Mrs angle linger or you've heard your mother and father having a terrific fight in the bathroom or you just passed by one of those puddles in the street with gasoline rainbows in them. I mean you'd be different in some way. I can explain what I mean and even if I could I'm not sure I'd feel like it. And he goes on for one more sentence or two. Certain things they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone. I know that's impossible but it's too bad anyway. Anyway I kept thinking about all that while I walked. Yeah I have to say that's a pretty good passage. Even though I don't like the book I have to say

that that you know it speaks to being in the moment and not being in the moment and appreciating where you are as an adolescent when you agree. And I think it also speaks to something else and that is. That image of being behind the glass and being observed seems to me of isolation and alienation while at the same time experiencing attentive attention and engagement from an audience. And that seems to be part of the paradox of the novel that feeds our fantasies. We want to give voice to our individuality by displaying our alienation. But to a consuming audience that is attentive. All right I want to know you because you teach students college students and at that point Alicia said the novel wasn't speaking to her. Do you think that this novel is speaking to teens today.

Teens Yes but I don't think college students like I would agree that if you want to teach a novel about America. At the college level you wouldn't want to start with The Catcher In The Rye. But why do you think it still resonates with teens today. I mean it's set in a certain time period post-war America. A lot of things going on. Well very different from today. There is still a freshness to the language there's still that tension between the inner world of the team and that hostile uncomprehending outside world. And indeed if you think about it in the context of the history of the novel it really carries on in a fresh and new voice something that's central to the novel and that is that battle between interiority and the hostile world. This is one of those novels that belongs to the category of novels in which there's a path those that result from recognizing that your inner voice is not only alien to but is no match for the larger outside world. And I think teens especially

because they feel so powerless identify with that. Now let me just say that this book has been aired once. Well I always put on a best list if you will but also one of the most censored books of all time because of the language and the promiscuity but also let's face it it's had some interesting impacts on people who are maybe not not stable. Right. The guy who shot John Lennon. The young man John Hinckley who attempted assassination on Ronald Reagan both cited this book as not inspiration for them but this is where they found their foundation. Alicia do you want to speak to that. Well what I would like to just note is that as recently as 2000 and one the American Library Association had this on the top 10 list of books challenge that year and you might be interested to know that Harry Potter is also on that list of mice and men. I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and Go Ask Alice So I feel like these books you know they're they're classics even Harry

Potter is making its way I'm sure for this generation into classic status. I would like to step back to one thing Eugene said about the popularity of this book right now. I know it sells 250000 copies a year even now. But I wonder about how teens are reading it given the rollicking adventure of Harry Potter by the way had Harry Potter been named Hannah or had Holden Caulfield been named Hannah. One wonders if either of those books or series of books in the case of Harry Potter would be as popular. I wonder what we do with the adventure of the female in our literary world and why you know is there a book like Holden Caulfield story. That we turn to for a women story. I am delighted to know that among the influences that J.D. Salinger cites on his work is Jane Austin which was the book that I turn to for that inner voice that that me too.

Yes but why would you want a female equivalent of the cattle in the ride because this is the failed building's aroma. Right this is about failure and perpetual alienation I'm talking only about the voice. How do you find that voice and I made it through nearly a Ph.D. program in literature without ever reading Jane Austin. I didn't range also until I was in. I know it's shocking. I didn't read her until I was in my 30s. I was completely angry at the world that I had been denied Jane Austen all those many years if I had had her in my mind the way so many of us have Holden in our minds early on. I wonder how that would have changed my life too. I do want to read a couple of things that I found online from young people just coming about and this was a woman who is 26 now. She read it at age 16 and now she says it's whining self-righteous and she wanted to scream shut up. When she read it at 26 she was like What is this. And then this is from a person who lives in England. Catcher In The Rye was about a self-absorbed privileged ungrateful little snotty. And the two dimensional female

stand ins of characters. The only thing more depressing than that book is the fact that apparently it resonates with most of America and that is telling you Jen. I would I would agree with everything that's been said. Now I know I have been talking in this way about the novel but I think ultimately the effect on me and American pop culture has been very damaging. It really encourages certain forms of self absorption that are self-defeating. Right. But I would also say that you can see Catherine in the RAW in the phenomenon for example of Glenn Beck. OK explain. Yeah. OK. One of the things about the novel that you remember he thinks everybody's a phony. Right right. All the adults all the adult has a lot of space for the kids. But go ahead. What he he juxtaposes against that phony this is this inner emotion the sense of injured innocence and so anything that

arises as a feeling internally is self validating for Holden Caulfield and that's very adolescent. But I think you see that phenomenon in Glenn Beck and I think you can also appreciate how he appeals to his followers if in that way I mean by the way for people who don't know Glenn Beck is a commentator on Fox News content right. I think he makes his followers feel good about themselves by validating their feelings and suggesting that their feelings of anger these in covert feelings of rage and alienation are not as sers of their authenticity as opposed to the phones in Washington and their moral clarity their moral integrity. Right. And there is an element of that in the novel. He is not reflexive about and I think that feeds that kind of thinking belief

in one's inner conviction especially in adolescence but also and the culture at large. Alicia Well I like the way that you make the connection to the culture at large. For me on a on a personal note reading this book recently I felt like I was stuck in one of those conversations that we've all been in where this is just me talking from I have no other point of view except I know a girl of course you know. Oh yeah getting into a conversation with a boy who just won't stop talking about himself. This is like a bad guy. OK. Then there was maybe my sister Yes I know you're been on that bad day just as a girl you're kind of stuck in my mind of what happened you know. So that what happened Holden that's what you want to say and I will say that I did recognize in reading at this time that the real freshness of that language. And I appreciated that as as a book a rite of passage it's not that for me. In fact I don't see much passage in the book at all. I

see. Back to that museum moment. Adolescence frozen and Leslie's in that way it sounds like he's just going to continue in the same way as a tiny bit of optimism at the end but not much. Well I root for him. OK we do but I want him to shut up. I'll tell you Jack. I'm going to let you have the last word on this. I agree with you 100 percent I think one of the things that this novel encourages is treating other people as audiences right rather than as complex figures in and of themselves. But as audiences who are going to consume your displays your theatrical displays of alienation and pain and that's really damaging for adolescence that's the last thing you want to encourage them to do especially boys. So you know this book needs to be read in context. And so maybe it is proper that it's still taught in high schools where teachers have an opportunity to really

engage in the discussion with students as opposed to people going off reading it themselves and coming away with something that is damaging. Thanks for this insightful conversation. Alicia ANSTEAD editor in chief of the performing arts magazine Inside arts and the online editor of Harvard arts and eugenic professor of English at Wellesley College thank you so much for joining us. You can continue the conversation online at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show. Today's program was engineered by Alan Mathis and produced by Chelsea Mertz our production system is an a white knuckle where production of WGBH radio Boston. NPR news and culture station.