WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. Quitting smoking is among the most popular New Year's resolutions of 2011 and these days the benefits may not be limited to improved health. They could also include job security. As of January 1st the Massachusetts Hospital Association is no longer hiring smokers. A trend that's gaining traction but at what point does encouraging healthier habits become a form of discrimination. Is it fair to make moral judgments about workers based on their personal preferences. If an employer won't hire a smoker who else need not apply. Bikers who don't wear helmets. Folks who prefer the TV to the treadmill. This hour we'll look at what happens when the tenets of Public Health. Free will and workplace policies collide. But first it's off to Fitchburg with Mayor Lisa long and her plan to turn the mill town into a metropolis. Up next from mayor to moral wrongs. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying today we

heard outgoing House clerk Lorraine Miller opening the new session of the 100 12th Congress with Republicans now in charge of the house. They also picked up more seats in the Senate this fall shrinking the Democrats majority in that chamber on Capitol Hill NPR's Paul Brown is standing by with the latest developments Paul. John Boehner of Ohio is selected the new House speaker the formal handover of the gavel Still to come and a formal swearing in of the new House of Representatives. In about an hour and a half at 2:30 Eastern time Mr. Boehner says that he plans to make the house more honest responsive and accountable. And he of course has made his signature proposal for the new term of Congress either repeal or they take a part of the health care law. Now the GOP says that one of its top priorities is repealing the new health care law. As we've been hearing all morning Congressman Paul Ryan the incoming Republican chairman of the House Budget Committee told NBC that the

GOP will certainly not waver. We made a pledge to the American people in our Pledge to America that we would bring up and repeal this health care bill so we're simply keeping our word to the people that we gave before the election. Well what are you hearing from Democrats on this GOP challenge. Democrats are fighting this they're not taking it lying down we've spoken with several Democratic representatives. The latest a dentist a cynic's of Ohio who says not to count the Democrats out he feels that it's time for the country to recommit to what he calls a primary American values. And he says he's looking forward to the next two years. OK Paul Thanks NPR's Paul Brown reporting from the Capitol. NPR's Mara Liasson reports White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs is stepping down from his job as the president's chief spokesman. The much anticipated White House shake up has begun. A top White House aide tells NPR that Gibbs is leaving not to another administration post as had been previously speculated but to the private sector. He will become an outside political adviser to President Obama. He'll

also give speeches he'll leave in early February and his replacement is expected to be announced in a few weeks. The move comes as President Obama begins a broader transition in his senior staff as he prepares to run for re-election in 2012. One possible newcomer William Daley former Clinton cabinet official and brother of Chicago Mayor Richard Daley who may become chief of staff. Mara Liasson NPR News the White House. In other news Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr an outspoken critic of U.S. occupation in Iraq is back in his home country after living the last three years in Iran. He's reported to be staying in Najaf. An official with Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki's office says Saddam Iraq today but wanted it to be low key citing security concerns. The Dow is up 44 points eleven thousand seven thirty five. This is NPR. The European Union has not formally responded to Iran's offer for tour of its nuclear facilities but as Teri Schultz reports from Brussels the EU does not appear likely to RSVP in the affirmative.

Tehran has invited representatives from the EU China Russia and several other countries for what it's calling a visit to nuclear sites. The U.S. most notably did not receive an invitation nor has Iran been forthcoming with official inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency the IAEA who are tasked by the UN with determining the exact capabilities of the country's nuclear program. Brussels hasn't formally answered Tehran yet but spokesman Michael Mann makes clear the EU believes it's the IAEA experts who should have the open door. That is the way that we see things have to be done. Mann notes the EU is also still hoping for progress in international negotiations later this month in Istanbul between Iran and Britain France Germany the U.S. China and Russia. For NPR News I'm Teri Schultz in Brussels. Recapping our top story on this first day of a new Congress and Senate Democrats plan to propose measures that would make it more difficult for the Republican minority to hold up legislation through filibuster Democrats still control the Senate but their majority shrank when Republicans picked up more seats in the fall the GOP is the majority party in the

house. And by the way the roll call vote for House speaker is still under way in the speaker of course is expected to be John Boehner of Ohio here's the latest from Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average still up forty one point said eleven thousand seven hundred thirty two on news if more economic good news. Nasdaq gaining 15 points it's at twenty six ninety seven. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation dedicated to the idea that all people deserve the chance to live healthy productive lives. At Gates Foundation dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show. Joining me in the studio is Lee so long the mayor of Fitchburg. She became a sensation in 2007 when she won the mayoral election at the age of 28. We're talking to her today about what she's doing to turn her city from a former mill town into a thriving

metropolis. Mayor Wong welcome. Good to be here Kelly. So of course everybody wants to know why you would want to run to begin with. I should note that you also have been re-elected since that time that's right beating two other candidates So clearly whatever you're saying is resonating with your constituents but were you always a political junkie or. You know I actually I was a Political Junkie from the sideline so I was surprised myself when I actually stepped onto the court. But I have to say that having watched other candidates behind the scene having worked on campaigns gives you a lot more confidence around yourself because it's not this great mystery and you can see that it's really hard work and you can see that there is especially when there's a lot of integrity and those are the only candidates I like to support that you can get really get things accomplished. Now you came to the table from with an economic background that I think a lot of mayors in other cities would envy now because since the the issue of the day is jobs in the economic hopefully upturn you are be you trained economists.

That's right and passing by be on the way here brought back a lot of memories and I said thank you professors for the great education that you gave me. But I have to say that when I when I first came into office it really it really was the jobs and economy and the finances that were really driving me into office and where my focus in this was 2007 2008 so the headlines weren't all about this global financial meltdown that actually happened maybe about six months and nine months into my first term and I thought wow I've already been thinking about this for a little while so I was I felt a little bit more prepared in terms of. Say but kind of preparing for the Doomsday of a global economic meltdown and getting the city prepared and I think that where we are right now really shows a lot of that hard work in the beginning. What do you know now. Because you know there's book learning and then there's what happens on the ground. So you came from B you with all this great training but now you're working on the ground with some very real concerns and issues. What changed if anything changed how did you have to adapt what you knew from book learning.

Well what I find is that it's kind of like 5 percent theory and plan and then 95 percent implementation. But I also believe that if you spend all your time implementing something that's not right in the first place then you know that wastes a lot of time so I really use a lot of what I learned that be you what I learned you know on the ground working for a nonprofit and other agencies and saying OK so this is this is what I believe needs to be done. But I've got to sell it I've got to spend 95 percent of my time convincing other people to work with me because even as mayor I can't do it alone. Now Lol and that whole area or Fitchburg I'm sorry is one of several gateway cities and they were former mill towns now trying to exist in 21st century and that's your whole mission is to try to turn Fitchburg from Milltown as it was into the 21st century as a metropolis right. You know I'm glad you brought up the term gateway said I love that term because it really shows that it's an entry point for a lot of people young families new immigrants the workforce because

this is where the public transportation the affordable housing of the services and a lot of the core jobs where there's a lot of entry level jobs are and it still exists today just like it existed 100 years ago. So that's I think a really positive thing for the state to really look at to say you know what we want to bring the biotech we want to bring the high tech jobs and but we really need an entry point for people to come here we need that population growth in order to compete for for those workers that those employers to begin with and that really provides a great opportunity for that. Now I just misspoke and said Lowell but that just says to me that you know so many of us have fixed in our mind certain cities in Massachusetts and the reputation and the brand as a as a mill town. And how do you change that I know you're trying to get new business into the city but how do you get anybody to think about it differently. Well you know it oftentimes you actually have to point to a place like Lowell. Because it's hard for people to make that jump of imagination especially if they're saying the same thing over and over again so

I use a little example a lot or twice the size of Lowell though so you know geographically where half the population so I kind of use Lowell as a gauge. But I have to say that you know Providence is definitely another town that we're looking at. And when I first became mayor the Providence Journal wrote an editorial that said that Fitchburg was the next Providence. So I thought it was so interesting that you know people who have lived through that experience and said you know what we were so doubt and now look at us you can do it too. So I found a very you know heartening and I also found that it really is easier to convince people outside of Pittsburgh than people inside Pittsburgh that that we can really get it done so I've actually been focusing a lot of my first three years on this steak vs. the sizzle so you might see all that sizzle in terms of what's in the newspapers and why and even coming on a show like this which is such an honor. But in terms of what I do in Fitchburg it's really working and at stake it's organizing people it's putting money in the bank you know making us more financially stable. I'm working a

lot with businesses to try and retain jobs and they're all growing jobs one at a time you know sometimes it's one sometimes it's five. But it is moving in the right direction. Well I was looking at some stats in November of 2009 when you would have you know been in office then as well the area rate for unemployment was twelve point two it's now. But in November 2010 it was eleven point nine so it something's working even though the the actual numbers of unemployed went up slightly from two thousand three hundred seven to two thousand two hundred fifty seven. The percentage rate went down so that's saying something's going on there. That's right and you can see that that correlates to the workforce increasing so what it was is a lot of people who may not have been counted in the statistics are now counted in and shown as unemployed so even with that we are still able to to make some progress and that's been because we have some really great businesses in the city. We don't have those big companies like we had before we don't have those big mills that employ 2000 people. It might be 20 or might be

two or it might be 200. But because we're I feel like we're small enough and we work hard we know who those people are and we work with them we know what they need. And that's really what we spend our time doing it doesn't seem like it's glamorous. But at the end of the day I'm like This is somebody's job so this is important to me. Now you've you know this is and has been all a walk in the park you had to make some really hard decisions laying off some folks demoting some captains some folks who are in charge and also turning off the street like that's right. You know tell us about this. You know turning up the street I think I was getting calls from like Korean newspapers I mean in Korea not even the ones us here in Boston so that certainly made a lot of news because we were actually one of the first to do it. But then over the next few years it was just it seemed like more and more and more communities were resorting to that. But I have to say that doing it has got a couple of things. First is a lot of people said that it actually respected the fact that I'm willing to make tough political decisions because at the same time that we

turned off street lights I saved police officer jobs and crime went down. So in terms of what I feel is important I feel like lowering crime is important vs. doing something that's politically popular unpopular so a lot of people said thank you for you know actually caring about the community and not just doing what you think is politically correct. The second thing is that we found that we were actually wasting a lot of money on street lights. Is that even though I cut the budget in half that. Actually I can keep the budget as it is right now and I can turn on all the street lights if we purchase the streetlights from the utility company so I actually found that at the end of the day we were actually wasting about 250 to 300 thousand dollars a year and we might not have figured that out if we didn't even we didn't bring so much attention to the issue. How did people respond to that I mean it does make you very popular I'm imagine initially anyway until maybe now people hear about the savings. Yeah well I mean I did it right before my last re-election so. Oh boy I think you might gamble.

Yeah I knew we needed it to do it because I mean otherwise I would have had to lay off some really key personnel I would have probably had to close some fire stations and everybody's you know home insurance would have gone up so you know at the end of the day it was a smart move. And even while I was doing it nine out of 10 people who are calling my office were saying you know you go girl you you turn off those street lights don't forget to turn off that when we support you. And I think before I turn off street lights I had spent the previous year and a half really talking about the financial situation and talking about the fact that we had tough choices to make. So people said you know what that is definitely a tough choice because I'm not sure I would have made that choice so I think that really is that she said she was going to do something and she did it you know was probably to her detriment but we respect her for that. There's a couple things that are percolating on the national front that are impacting you know folks like yourself. And that is Republicans have long said and now there are some prominent Democrats I'm thinking of. Newly elected Cuomo in New York saying we've got to get

tough with public unions because there are cost savings there and we're all hurting at the state level and at the federal level and the city level. Where do you stand on this. I'm definitely with my other fellow mayors and city and town managers and we're saying you know we want to get tough on unions but we also want to be very specific I mean to say you're tough on unions is kind of a it's a very political statement. I've actually had a very good relationship a good working relationship with my union So in terms of being tough I'm saying really more. We need to look at the laws more so than the unions themselves. One of the laws that we're focusing is plan design and health care and all the mayors we've been talking about this for for years actually and we believe that this is something that will help us save jobs especially union jobs and help save communities services without impacting the state we're not asking for a handout from the state. We're just basically saying. The whole concept the plan design that

allows us to make adjustments to our health care plans that our cities will actually help us save money in Fitchburg case we could save several million dollars so Fitchburg could end up being a leader in this potentially. I think all the mayors have been working together I think we found that individually we wanted this collective we actually have a voice so I have to just congratulate and thank all my fellow mayors for realizing that even though we all have so much to do in our own communities that by reaching out to fellow mayors our voices that much more amplified. Well speaking of voices This is another something I want to ask you about I mean you're Asian-American and it seems to me as we look around Massachusetts now Teki Chan from Quincy just got elected to the state legislature. Leland Chung is in Cambridge we lost Sam ume from the city council who made a major impact. But let's talk about and don't forget Donald Wong. Oh yes that's right. It appears to me that there is an increase in political power among Asian-Americans. Do you feel you're a part of that is that true.

I do feel like I'm a part of it I see that Asian-Americans have really organize around just about every other sector the medical field the the legal field. And it's about time that we really enter the political field. And I find that the Asian-American organizations have done a lot of organizing a lot of training and it hasn't just been focus on gee you know we're asian and we need to we need to make sure that our percentages and political office represent the percentages on the ground I mean that's that's just thinking with your head. And I think Asians might be known for that. But I think what we've done is actually we've really tapped into our heart into our core and realize that politics is is part of it's part of who we are in terms of having a voice for you know what we believe in and in terms of our core values and not just you know in terms of the numbers and the statistics. You're a young woman living in Fitchburg I have to say you look like somebody would be living in Boston. You know maybe Beacon Hill or someplace you know kind of hip and happening. Tell us why Fitchburg

means a lot to you. Well I actually grew up near Roland Lawrence and Matthew and my parents had a restaurant and a role for a number of years so I feel like I spent my waking hours in cities like Fitchburg where I got to know the people you know we ran a local Chinese restaurant so I kind of felt like our Chinese restaurant was like a mayor's office. OK but we were there and people would come in and they would tell us their problems and we would help them in. And I remember because we had a restaurant for so long. You know people who worked in mills wood would be laid off or the mills would close they would lose their jobs. You know there might be like you know personal issues. And then I also you know was in these restaurants when the city said OK we're going to help. We're going to help revitalize you we're going to you know give you small business loans or we're going to help you know convert the mills into housing or bring in new businesses so you know sitting in this Chinese restaurant working very hard all these years. I saw this city really mature and develop around me like the heartache and all the opportunities.

And I remember when my dad said OK so do you want to help you know do you want to take over the Chinese restaurant business and I said no I want to be that city official that walks in our door and tells us that they can help us. So so when I'm in Fitchburg I think you know I love going into like a Chinese restaurant or a Spanish restaurant and being that person that says OK how can I help. And I feel very proud that you know 20 25 years later I actually made that dream happen. What's next. This is election year. I mean are you going to run again. Looks like it. Yeah. Is that really not going to think about it till 2011 and 2011 is here so I am thinking about it and it's very likely that that will happen. I think ultimately it's going to be a personal decision I know that a lot of the projects I put in place I have so many partners that you know I feel like I'm not just the only one anymore I'm I know a lot of people believe in in the same values and same visions

and that just makes me feel so good. And for the city that's I mean that's your for the city as well. What next project should we be looking into coming from from Fitchburg under your direction. Well I think it's something that that is going to be seen is going to be public transportation and this is interesting because I'm looking at all the states that are giving up all these public transportation dollars. Those high speed trains and I and I shake my head Fitchburg was. Very very lucky we received 55 million dollars to extend the train station to west Pittsburgh. And I think we're going to see that where the new growth happens I know we've got a census coming out a few months but I think if you actually think 10 years from now when the you know 2020 census comes out you're going to see that a lot of the population growth is going to happen where there's increases in public transportation so I'm very happy for the city and that we were able to get those dollars we didn't say no we know how important it is. It's created a lot of jobs engineering jobs environmental jobs construction jobs. And there's going to be a lot of growth that's going to be centered around these public transportation

hubs so I think that's going to be the next conversation especially like I said as as states are refusing those dollars and others are taking advantage of it. Yeah and we've seen already some instances where they wish they continued forward and working on those public transportation plans. Now we're talking about population growth but Massachusetts is going to lose a congressional seat because people are leaving. What you're doing in Fitchburg and what other mayors do bring back population in one of the people. One of the reasons people leave courses is terribly expensive to live here. That's right you know I want to point out that you're looking at me and you're saying oh well you know you could live in Boston. I have lived in Boston and I can't right now because it's too it's too expensive. But I can tell you that gateway cities like Lowell and hey veral and Salem and if it's Burgen Pittsfield and Brockton in New Bedford these are the next These are really the next places where young professionals should be going. So we really need to market more for young professionals because we've got the public transportation we have the jobs there we have education

facilities we have the arts and culture. I mean I'm a living testament to that I love living in the city and I can afford it and I have a lot of young professional friends there there's a lot of opportunities. And I think it's a great place to raise families so if gateway cities like Pittsburgh can be put on the map of young professionals that are coming through the Boston area for college then I think we're going to see that the population growth happens there. And I think that's great for Boston you know Boston really needs to look at that as a strategy to say that OK we can't house all of them but but if people are living in a commune like Pittsburgh they're commuting in every day. They're our workforce they come into the theater and food and and so on so I really think that if we can make that connection between gateway cities and Boston we're going to see that the next 10 years will be different. Governor Deval Patrick has already said that he's going to be traveling around trying to bring business back to the state this is something you've already been on the road doing I'm interested to know what is your pitch when you when you're out there selling the city.

What do you say. You know I one of the things I say about the city is you know the proximity to Boston really does help the public transportation does help so everybody already knows about what's in Boston so I'm just trying to get them to know if it's work so once they understand that. Well Boston isn't that far away. Then I can get their attention and sell them on Fitchburg which is it's affordability it's great great great workforce and people and I and I and I always I always had to make it personal and I tell people about the fact that I have a house that is beautiful you know beautiful arsing crafts house on the hill where I can walk to everything I can walk to shows I can walk the downtown and it's less than a parking space in Boston that I have friends in my neighborhood and we have parties for all the holidays and so when I when I kind of like tell that type of life that I have and that you know it's right there every day and I can also work there. I think people get kind of dreamy and think oh you know no more commutes or more being a part of a community where I can actually create something I can actually talk to the mayor.

I can. It's a college town and there is a college students everywhere. I mean it's it's really nice to kind of sell that to folks. But I also think that there's a number of really innovative companies that we have going on that have you know just trying to think of examples but one example is we have a company that's right in the downtown and is right next to the train station and as I get you you would think that that was a place for a manufacturer to to grow but they're actually manufacturing people's joints there. So if you're in a hospital in Boston. Oh OK. OK so that's a whole nother debate. OK I think we're on the wrong coast. OK so if you're in a hospital in Boston and you need a new like me that might be made in Fitchburg. Oh that's right down the street from my house so I always find that interesting that that so many high tech things are going on in our city. All right well thank you very much Mayor Lee so long. Fitchburg biggest booster

we've been talking to Mayor Lisa Wang the mayor of Fitchburg about reviving her city. Up next we're looking at workplace policies that are smoking out workers who smoke a practice that has some people in the public health field fuming. We want to get you in on this conversation do you think it's fair to not hire people who have an unhealthy lifestyle or is this an incentive to inspire more people to become healthy. We're an 8 7 7 3 0 170. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We'll take your calls after this break stay with us. At the. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Elsa Dorfman Cambridge

portrait photographer. Still clicking with the jumbo format Polaroid 20 by 24 analog camera and original Polaroid film. Online at Elsa Dorfman dot com. That's Elsa Dorfman dot com and from Bentley University's McCallum graduate school. Offering full time and part time MBA programs along with seven business focused M.S. degrees details at Bentley dot edu slash grad. I'm investigating how U.S. guns end up in Mexico's drug wars. We talk with James Grimaldi one of the reporters who has contributed to the Washington Post series The Hidden Life of Guns. Join us for the next FRESH AIR. This afternoon at two on eighty nine point seven are. Thinking about selling your car bike truck or other used vehicle. Why not donate it to

WGBH instead. All you need is a clear title and WGBH will take care of the rest. We'll even have someone pick it up for you. Once WGBH sells your car the proceeds will go toward supporting the radio and television programs you depend on and you'll receive a receipt for your tax records because your vehicle donation is completely tax deductible. To learn more visit WGBH dot org. What are some of the books food and music that make 2010 memorable from songs to cookbooks. Check out lists from NPR and WGBH to some of the best of our path here online at WGBH dot org slash 2010. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. This is the Kelly Crossley Show. Today the Massachusetts Hospital Association along with the Department of Public Health is unveiling the new tobacco free hospital initiative. This is on the heels of a policy that the MHRA enforced on hospitals on January 1st to no longer hire

people who use tobacco. It's a policy that my guest Leonard Glantz says is unfair. Leonard Glantz is professor of health law bioethics and human rights at Boston University at Boston School of Public Health. Leonard Glantz welcome. Thank you very much. Before we dive into the conversation listeners we want to hear from you. Should employers be allowed to make hiring firing or promotion decisions based on someone's lawful but not so healthy behavior when not at work. Or should smokers and overweight people and weekend warriors who like to skydive take a backseat to workers who are more practical when it comes to their health and safety. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. So Leonard you wrote a piece for The Boston Herald. A few weeks back just saying that there is a huge loss of people who could be employable because of this decision. And you're not objecting to it. Well you are objecting to it as a moral issue

explain that. Yes I've talked about the moral issue and as a social justice issue that policy such as this are clearly discriminatory. They're not illegal at least not in math the truth is it would be illegal in about 30 states. But it doesn't make it not discriminatory. And that in terms of social justice and fairness that employers should be able to regulate what you do away from the place of employment. There are things that are bonafide job requirements but behaving in certain ways in your home is certainly not one of them. So to take a whole group as MH and to have which is people who smoke if they were not going to hire them is the definition of bigotry that it takes a group or doesn't look at individual talents or abilities. And if we just don't want to with sociate with you because of what you do and by doing that the Massachusetts Hospital Association has said that under no circumstances will it hire 16 percent of the Massachusetts population. These are people who smoke. Yes.

OK. Let me just put this on the table and I'm going to take a caller in just one second. So this is a Massachusetts hospital association so what would you say if they say you know our business is healthy. So in this case for us it would be maybe like a bank saying we can't have a felon handling money. Well but and I think that that's an important distinction to make that not having a felon handle money would be an occupational requirement to be a bona fide occupational requirement that you don't want someone who has a propensity to take money out of your bank to work there. There's nothing that a smoker does. I made sure that I'm not talking about smoking at MHRA I'm not talking about workplace smoking that it's perfectly fine with that. What. So that the felon analogy you know the meth analogy just doesn't work. That has nothing to do with what the person's job would be. I think I may say. All right let's take a call. Randy from St. you're on WGBH Go ahead please.

Hi I just wanted to say that this is a huge debate right now but I want everybody to come to the hospital system there you go to personnel and get their pre-employment go and if you have got diabetes breast cancer prostate cancer. If you're five pounds overweight if you have high cholesterol or any past history. Have any any hope issues then you should not be hired either. Is so pretty much that's pretty much what they're saying. Let's just say that smoking is you know self inflicted with you know health risk. They don't want people that smoke working there and well the morbid obesity in the United States is the second killer besides colon cancer and lung cancer. So Randi you're agreeing with Leonard that this we're going down a slippery slope and this is bigotry going down on the brain. Well I don't think I like the word bigotry but I am definitely a if they're going to cover smoking the need to

cover every other single thing to make it fair. OK thank you very much. Yeah thank you. I want to I want to clarify my use of the word bigotry because I mean it and but I need to explain it cause obviously we're not talking about bigotry the way people are bigoted white people bigot against black people or some men who are bigoted against women. What I mean by bigotry is that there's no rational reason for making a distinction. So that in in a local hospital and hospital which right after this agreed that they wouldn't hire smokers that Stephen salvo the vice president there was quoted as saying the hospital would not implement any policy that illegally discriminates against individual or protected class. That's not a social justice statement that they want to act illegally. What he is saying apparently is that they will discriminate against individuals who don't who aren't a member of a protected class and right. Think of that. That's tomorrow. I think that when you take a class of people and you exclude them based on their qualifications that's bigotry. OK.

Well joining us now is Lynn Nicolas She's the president and CEO of the Massachusetts Haase Massachusetts Hospital Association which implemented its new policy to hire only nonsmokers. And this morning the MHRA also launched a statewide initiative to help hospitals become tobacco free. Let Nicholas welcome. Welcome hello. Well you've heard Leonard and you've heard our caller. Why don't you explain why you felt this initiative was necessary. OK well let's thank you I'd like to separate the two for the state wide initiative which is voluntary but I think will have tremendous uptake is really about hospitals and their campuses being smoke free inside and out. And 39 of the hospitals across the commonwealth already have that well in place and this is an effort to help the others get to that point which they all really want to do. OK so we're talking about this is at the hospital because it was making a distinction before about you know people's personal preferences at home versus at work.

And so you're saying at the hospital this is your initiative so now that's that doesn't that state wide initiative rattly rolled out today. Now the initiative that. I implemented as an employer with my own company to no longer hire tobacco users. Effective. The first of the year. So it's just been a couple days now. I do believe that some hospitals will just advantage has very boldly done go down that path as well and I just want to make a couple of comments about it. First I think it's very speculative far reaching and perhaps the responsible to focus this talk show or any discussion on this on obesity and things like that because there are metabolic reasons there are a lot of reasons people are obese and we're not talking about that. There is clearly no effort to go down that path and in fact those individuals are protected class and one couldn't do it even if you wanted to. So I think we should keep this conversation to tobacco use and that was our caller's

question so I think you know right. Yeah go ahead I thought about it. It comes into the slippery slope issue which I believe one of one of both of you mentioned. But now I mention the slippery slope not from that perspective but what I'd let me clarify my statement it. I meant if you are saying that people can't smoke at home and that's Leonard's put position are we going down that slippery slope that's the slippery slope I'm referring to OK. So in my case as an employer yes we are in fact saying that. And here's the reason. First of all this is not a policy that would fit every company or every organization. But we are in the healthcare business. Then it's really very frustrating hospitals are particularly under assault by being told we need you to do what you can to bring down the health care cost in the Commonwealth and reduce the unnecessary costs in the health care stand. But we want you to improve health status. We want you to save lives. We want you to be good citizens in the community. So hospital the stewards of Public Health.

I think if anyone or maybe a company that was in the fitness you know arena or something because it was really their business. I think they are uniquely positioned as we want employees to walk the talk on this issue because it is so clearly the leading preventable cause of death. OK. And it's just in a different arena then than all the other issues that often get brought up in this conversation. OK that's Lynn Nicholas who is the president and CEO of the Massachusetts Hospital Association which has implemented a new policy to hire only nonsmokers. Leonard I know has a response to some part of what you just said but a little before I go to you I want to take a couple callers. So Kathy from Beverly on WGBH Please go ahead. Thank you for taking my call. I thought that entered my client was productivity. I could write for a smoke free health care facility. And I understand that you have to go on health care to me. I nonsmoker have any coworkers I absolutely love who I

smoke is and find that they need to take frequent cigarette breaks which balances the burden and I don't really mean burden as a burden so much as that there's a shift in who's doing what. So you're saying that the nonsmokers are doing more work is what you're saying. Well the nonsmoking company has to do the work while the smoke is out taking a break. OK all right I'm going to let Lynn respond to that in a second but but Leonard I know you want to get back to Lynn Nichols this point and this is Leonard Glantz who's a bioethicist at Boston University School of Public Health. Yeah I was about the reduction of how I would make a couple of points one of that the major way is not a health care organization. Although the nickel is said that it is the image of a lobbying group for health care organizations but the MHRA itself doesn't treat patients doesn't offer preventive services or or anything else. So to distinguish itself by being a

by being a health in the health business is not correct. The second point I want to make is about costs cost that comes up quite often as a way to legitimize this and what I would say is that blaming the health care costs on smokers or obese people or anybody else because of their activities is just patently false and actually an outright lie. And what it does is it shifts social problems on to the shot's shoulders of individuals. So let me give you the facts and the facts are that Massachusetts has the fourth lowest rate of smoking in the country. That Massachusetts is the fourth skinniest state in the country. Massachusetts has the highest hospital costs and the highest health care costs in the country. If there was a connection between people's personal behaviors and health care costs we would have very low health care costs. And one of the questions that we would ask I would ask the MHL area Nichols is that she's still on the line is what role has the major you had. Keeping health care costs

high but so that so the notion that smokers or people who overeat are responsible for health care costs is just patently full necklace would you like to respond to that. Sure it will finally. Finally the one thing I can agree with and that is that health care costs are incredibly multifactorial there are many many issues. So please understand that we do not think this is that all the predominant driver. Having said that and you know yes I'm not a health care organization but as a spokesperson and policy arm for the hospitals across the commonwealth we're in lockstep about how we view health care issues. So I think here's here's just an example. Every pack of cigarettes cost the state cost taxpayers cost. Everyone listening to this show. $15 in direct health care costs and over six dollars in lost productivity via the prior caller who talked about the break and not to mention they have more upper respiratory infections and are out sick more and and all of that. So

everybody's paying for this and it is not at all the solution in fact we're working on payment reform inlining payment and then of then and remodeling how care is delivered and much more emphasis on prevention is the way to really drive down costs. But this is one small thing that can be done that will save lives. Yes it will save money but really the emphasis is on behaving lie and in extending people's life. People who smoke you know used tobacco they die significantly earlier than people who don't. It's just a shame not to try to address that when when when policies and things can be put in place that kind of help force the issue. OK that's my I guess Len Nicholas president CEO of the Massachusetts Hospital Association Leonard you want to jump. Yeah the question isn't whether to address smoking. I'm not disagreeing with you that the question is how. And the thought that it's up to the employer to force people to act in a way that the employer thinks is in their interest because it's good for their lives strikes me as outright

wrong. Also by the way I want to comment on your saying that smoking is unique then at the Cleveland Clinic has adopted the policy of not hiring smokers in Delos cars Grove when he was asked why he doesn't hire obese people he says. If it weren't for legal issues he wouldn't hire obese people that I don't know what legal issues he's talking about. Well you are correct that some people may have metabolic disorders. Most people who are overweight don't. And that they're not a protected class. There is absolutely no question that bell is causing Rove and others will find reason not to hire people. And this has to do with the morality of it. That there are we will all die. It's like a fiction that dying is optional and that if we don't smoke we won't die. I think you said you will die less quickly. I mean you know well the climate. The question of whether you left is in part up to you and is in part up to what

people will do for the rig so that the the notion that employers should tell us what we should do to stay alive you know it's not that smokers don't know that's OK right. Well to them it's really about that and your point is all about the morality of this that the move making this a moral issue so I'm going to take a call. Lisa from Quincy on WGBH. Is this a moral issue for you. Well it's sort of a moral issue and I guess I don't know. I'm a smoker personally and I don't know it drives me crazy how it discriminated against we are when we pay such high taxes for the privilege of smoking. I think we're doing our part to peaces society back from what we're taking away. And you're doing your part in what way did I miss that in paying the huge taxes. Actually correct. OK I have one. OK we're off setting our cocks. OK all right.

It seems like that gets kind of ignored. But how much money we're paying on top. Lisa I would ask this and then we're going to I want to get other people in this conversation 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 when Ok so you were you're smoking. But if I'm breathing in your air Am I not impacted is my health not impacted. I mean it's not impacted anymore it's been you breathing exhaust fumes should we not try either. Well I don't really know that it's impacted by a whole lot of things that you find in public spaces. So you find the policy of not hiring smokers to be bad news. But if it is just going to Tory if you want a non smoking environment where I'm a smoker but I'm not allowed you know the entire time that I'm at work I have no problem with that. It's pretty near to my home here. It's overreaching that's going to grow and I can have

your employer in your home. I don't know. Really creepy about that. All right well you heard it there from Lisa from Quincy. We're going to continue this conversation on the other side of the break. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy call us and let us know listeners we want to hear from you. Is it fair not to hire people who smoke are healthy habits and individual right. Or should people be rewarded or punished by society based on their lifestyle. Eighty nine point seven the kallah cross the show will be back after this break. Support for WGBH comes from you and from the New England mobile book fair in Newton. For 54 years. New England's independent bookstore. The New England mobile book fair. Find them online at an e-book fair dot com. That's an

e-book fair dot com. And from Providence Country Day School in East Providence you can experience the school's dynamic learning environment firsthand on Open Class Day. Wednesday January 12th from 9:00 a.m. to 12 noon Moore at Providence country day dot org. Next time on the world a problem with aid organizations in Haiti in Haiti and GEOS working on their own outside labor rather than hire locally qualified Haitians are not being employed so a crew of MIT students set up a kind of Craigslist Haitian workers advertise their skills by calling up this voice mail system or going to a labor database for Haiti. Next I'm on the World Cup is. Coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. Sunday January 9th masterpiece kicks off its 40th season on PBS with the smash

hit British drama Downton Abbey. If you support WGBH with a gift of one hundred twenty dollars or more you can watch each episode of this acclaimed drama online. A whole week before from years on TV. Already a member. Just go to WGBH dot org and sign in your full access begins January 2nd. If you're not a member. Sign up today. WGBH dot org. I'm Michele Norris from NPR News and you're listening to eighty nine point seven. WGBH radio. Stay with us for the bigger picture behind the day's news on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Coming up at 4:00 here on Boston's NPR stations for news and culture. I'm Kelly Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show. We're talking about what happens when workforce policies and public health intersects with our free will. My guest is Leonard Glantz. He's a bioethicist at Boston University School of Public Health. Also with us is Len Nichols. She's the president and CEO of the Massachusetts Hospital Association which

implemented its new policy to hire only nonsmokers. And this morning launched a statewide initiative to help hospitals become tobacco free. Now listeners where do you come down on this. Is it unfair for employers to hire people who smoke not to hire people who smoke even if we're talking about institutions whose mission it is to promote healthy living and to save lives. And is this a form of discrimination that can only gain momentum. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We have a lot of calls in before I take when I want to just read a couple sentences from a piece that was in the New Scientist in November 2010. The authors say that in 2010 health also describes an ideological and commercial tool used to make moral judgments convey prejudice sell products or even to exclude groups of people from health care. The objections are to the ways in which the rhetoric of health is being used to promote value judgments hierarchies

and blind assumptions that speak as much about power and privilege as they do about well-being. This is become frustratingly clear in the US political arena where battles over health care plans thinly veiled divergent assumptions about health responsibility and what it is to be a person so I wanted to put that out on the table and I'm going to take line three for us Steve from what you're on WGBH go ahead. Thank you for taking my call. Thank you for discussing this me I think it's quite interesting. I just wanted to say I'm a police officer in central Massachusetts and we have been smoking has been it's been a police officer since I believe it was nineteen eighty two where the state legislators passed the Hart Bill and police officers in Green Park not to use tobacco products namely cigarettes in exchange for the heart bill which enables police officers to retire from the job if they do come down with problems

related to stress on the job. As we all know it's a very stressful job and this certainly has been no outcry by anyone that this has been taking place because it was so we're the facts are so clear that smoking is such a leading contributor to various types of diseases. And it's in the police officers who agreed to do this and absolutely no problem doing that. I guess what it boils down to is if we did have a problem with it we want to smoke. Quite simply you could go get another job. You're not no one is forcing you to be a police officer. No one is forcing you to work at these hospitals if you don't see the problem. Let me ask you this question so does Apollo is the policy like the Massachusetts Hospital Association which means not only do we not hire smokers but we mean for you not to be smoking at home. So it's not cannot Yes you can not smoke at all if they are using tobacco products. You will be terminated on the spot.

OK all right very good. Thank you very much for your call Steve. Leonard you wonder is right but that wasn't designed to protect the health of police officers or increase their longevity as you pointed out earlier that it was designed because the prison the presumption that for police officers who have a heart attack no matter how young they are at the heart attack is smoking related. I'm sorry it's job related and therefore compensable under the pension system that by having police officers who smoke that it increases the risk of the era that it actually wasn't job related. So that there was a tradeoff. Remember that people can only go get other jobs if long as there are other jobs. But in the world of the MH people who smoke won't be able to get jobs in the world of the of the Cleveland Clinic in the world of the World Health Organization and Waco and all these other organizations that are actually not necessarily health related. Nicholas you heard from a police officer from Worcester Steve who said you know no outcry there they've accepted this as a policy. Are you saying the policy that the

inmate J has put in place now gaining traction nationwide. Well first of all I am glad you brought that issue up and I commend him for that. A couple points here. First of all you know perhaps in the future if jobs were harder to get because one did use tobacco less people would pick up that first cigarette in the first place. And that's really what this is about this is about making you know just a healthier place both for individuals and for the community. Then Lisa who were earlier talked about you know. Exhaust beams and things like that I mean it's so clear that nonsmokers are exposed to second hand smoke have themselves 25 to 30 percent higher heart disease and lung cancer right. 20 to 30 percent. But the thing no one's bringing up here is there's new evidence now about 30 and this has come out just in this year and it's very very convincing. Third hand smoke is basically what happens when the smoke where ever it occurs

it goes somewhere. OK particulate matter goes on closing hair rug and cetera people who do use tobacco who smoke in their homes. They do bring that into the workplace and this is news science then. I think part of our rationale that you know this might be a little cutting edge and little controversy all now but let's face it every single intervention smoking in restaurants bars all of that was controversy only considered. Oh this will never happen this is taboo. At one point time and now it's pretty commonplace. OK I'm going to take some more calls here. Richard from Cape Cod you're in WGBH Go ahead please. Thank you Michel. Oh my God just wanted about when we're going to go out and I'm going to you have and I'll be an African American. Hypertension you're going to be down the road. Well you know I happen to have a higher risk than a Caucasian. We have all this as well I think.

Absolutely yes what I don't think the country. Thank you very much for your call. Leonard I guess that's your point. Well just let me comment on the third hand smoke thing for a moment to say that that's good science is really far from true. All that shows is that there are some people who could bring particles and there's absolutely zero evidence that it matters in terms of any kind of health effect. And this goes to the question of what is it that we study. And that's sort of the moralism that's involved so the so. So I think it was clinical as you said that figure it costs $15 a pack and realize that the back o control number that's not like actually a you know the number but we but we don't actually ask the question What does skiing cost. So if I said What is the what is the cost of skiing. Of the people who get in their cars and drive and use fossil fuels and fall down mountains and ruin their needs and ruin their elbows What is the cost and the answer is we don't know the answer to that. And the reason that we don't is because we make moral judgments about what we want to access the stuff that we see asking

is a good thing. And smoking is a bad thing. So we don't look at the enormous cost of scaling. And that's the moral aspect that's the essential moral aspect of this discussion. I take your point Kenny from revering on WGBH very quickly we're running out of time. Thanks for taking my call. The question is that you know your company's going to walk a mile for everybody to go nonsmoking smokefree industry and when you are a smoker as I am and you ask the employer your while you have a program set up so you can assist people that don't smoke you get nothing. Yeah we got it I learned quickly what would you say to Kenny. You know what I know I'm sorry Lynn was yeah I'm terms that well first of all I think it is incumbent upon every employer and we certainly do to offer as many distances as possible to help people kick the habit should they choose to do so.

And the science on that is really improving as well. And one thing and just so something wasn't missed understood when I talked about the $15 you know a pack every pack sold that's $15 in health care cost. The downstream effect of Disney if you added up all the broken leg can cause confusions and even death from the er that is a drop in the bucket and it's infinitesimal. We got it. Cost of tobacco. Nicholas thank you so much for joining us this conversation is not an end we can see. Nicholas is the president and CEO of the Massachusetts Hospital Association. We've been talking about the intersection of health free will and workplace policies bordering on discrimination with Leonard Glantz as well. He's professor of health law bioethics and human rights at Boston University School of Public Health. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. Become a fan of the callee costly show on Facebook. The Calla Crossley Show is a production of WGBH.