American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Nicholas Katzenbach, 3 of 3

[Interviewer]-You're saying in Birmingham the mob was seriously out of control. I think the mob was seriously out of control in Birmingham because once they saw the police were going to make no effort at all to control it. It just rapidly escalated into this kind of situation that the police would have had difficulty controlling. [Interviewer-unintelligible] My understanding was that I think that that's true that there was it's obviously that the that there was an understanding between the police and the leaders of the mob that there would be some time given to them. I don't know whether, I don't know that, I just say it's obvious, I don't really know. [Interviewer-So in Montgomery my understanding is in Montgomery before as King is going to Montgomery that that unintelligible] [something is missing here Oh wait yes

we were very very concerned that you'd have a repetition the same We were very concerned that after Birmingham that there would be a repetition of Birmingham in Montgomery and there very nearly was. [Interviewer-unintelligbile MISSING WORDS HERE that that happens when you hear that Martin Luther King is coming right?] I don't remember that. [Interviewer-unintelligible]Kennedy also talked to Martin Luther King before He may have, I don't remember, I remember his talking to him in the church. I just don't remember if he talked to him before. Probably tried to discourage him from coming. That would be what I would expect. Because of the fact that his appearance there might create more of a temptation for disorder.

King was not a popular figure among the whites in the south. [Interviewer-I want to ask you again unintelligible unintelligible why were you nervous...?] We were nervous about Montgomery because of Birmingham and because of that fear and also I think because Dr King had determined to preach in Birmingham that meant a big crowd of blacks in the church in Birmingham which was always risky. [Interviewer-Why were you nervous about Montgomery?] We were nervous about Montgomery because of what happened in Birmingham and because Dr King was coming to preach in Montgomery and that meant a crowded church and always the potential

for danger when that occurred. [Interviewer-Did it occur?] Yes it did. I think that Bobby Kennedy thought that Dr. King's ass was saved by the marshalls that showed up there and I think that's true. [Interviewer- unintelligible...that I find fascinating about this whole kind of era is that there's this domestic thing that's happening here but also there's a thing that's happening internationally there's the cold war that's going on that I never kind of understood clearly is why did it matter that that there's this civil rights struggle in the United States

unintelligible.....in Montgomery is happening two weeks before Kennedy is going to meet with Kruschev, why is that why does that matter?] I don't know that it, that civil rights really makes a lot of difference in the cold war as far as the Russians are concerned. I think it does make a lot of difference in many countries in Africa and many countries in Asia because where the racial discrimination that we used and employed was something which the Russians criticize quite strongly and used to exploit in terms of communism moving into those countries so it had an effect of the cold war in that sense. [Interviewer-unintelligible

unintelligible] Russian is saying that American democracy is phony because American democracy doesn't include blacks, doesn't include Asians, doesn't include any foreigners who aren't European and we don't treat them equally. We treat them as inferior people and they, the Russians treat everybody equally which may in a sense have been true. [Interviewer-So some ways Russia is using the civil rights movement against..unintelligible.] It's using the civil rights movement against the United States and we're using the civil rights movement for the United States, I mean the extent to which we backed to blacks and the extent to which we eventually were successful had a huge impact in lots of countries around the world.

[Interviewer-So some ways you have to understand the Kennedy's reaction, government reaction in terms of this kind of squeeze. This ....between Russia, the civil rights movement and the southern democrats who were largely segregations] Yes you do have to see his, Kennedy's attitude to some extent as, on civil rights is based connected with the cold war and connected with the objectives of the United States in terms of trying to prevent communism from from coming into a lot of countries and dominating in a lot of countries. [Interviewer-unintelligbile it's funny, surprising....

Kennedy......talking with Martin Luther King in the church. Did you know that that there might've been a ...Governor Patterson... wiretap that was..... did you know?] No, I didn't know that. I may have known it or forgotten, doesn't mean it.... nor would i care very much. [Interviewer-What was the difference between at the church....federal marshals and the Alabama National Guard and federal marshals were there first and... why does it matter, does it matter?] Oh yes it was matter would try to prevent a confrontation between the two and General Graham was very much a segregationist himself and of course most members of the guard were.

Marshals were not, they'd been handpicked and volunteered I think for that kind of duty and I mean they weren't Alabama marshals, they were from all over the country. Marshals and border patrol and prison guards and alcohol and tax unit people and people sworn in locally as marshals and I think there was a real danger we didn't want uh... We certainly didn't want to remove the marshals and leave it up to General Graham and his forces to what was going to happen to the blacks in the church. I think they were very reluctant to try to do anything as long as the marshals were surrounding the church. So we had a stalemate there. [Interviewer-unintelligible] After they agreed that everybody could go home safely and would be protected the Alabama national guard took over and we removed

the marshals. [Interviewer-So in the end it ends up the Alabama national guard was kind of protecting Martin Luther King...] Yes, it ended up with the guard protecting him to that extent. [Interviewer- Just a little bit about Mississippi, was there a deal...unintelligible one of the things... What was the difference between the Alabama and the ...Mississippi..] The difference in essence was that we knew when they went into Mississippi that the Freedom Riders would all be arrested but we had some assurances that would be no beatings no violence at all on the part of any of the Mississippi

authorities they would take him and put him in jail then release them. {interviewer-I guess what I was getting at though the difference between the way Alabama operated and and the way Mississippi operated] Yeah Yes there was a difference but I you know I don't think anybody in the white south any good when the television cameras showed beating up of freedom riders or sit-ins for that matter but Freedom Riders particularly because it was a combination of whites and blacks and I don't think that helped establish anything good politically as far as the states were concerned. I think that Mississippi police were smart enough to say they didn't want that to happen. [Interviewer-I guess one of the things I was getting at, I can't remember if it was in your book somewhere else,that one of

the things they talk about is that this is that you know that Mississippi was like a police state and things were so bad because the way it comes out when you look at the Freedom Riders, Mississippi is better than Alabama the way they're treated, they are, they're not beat up and partially it's Mississippi is so controlled, that they're able to say ok we're not going to have any violence, they're able to control it, you know what I'm getting at?] I see what you're getting at but I'm not sure that I agree with it, I don't, I think Mississippi was far worse than Alabama as far as it's degrees of difference but still it was worse. You could negotiate as Burke Marshall did in Birmingham with some of the white leaders to get some rights for blacks, that was almost hopeless in Mississippi. But I think

that I think that Alabama could perfectly well have controlled any rioting and any beating up if they felt like doing it. And I think they could control their police force just as well as Mississippi could. [Interviewer-Do you think Mississippi basically learned from the mistakes of Alabama?] Yes on that occasion it did. Subsequently Alabama learned from the mistakes of Mississippi and the integration of the universities. [Interviewer-Was there a deal, I've heard there was a deal between our justice department and hang out in the unintelligible Jackson and ...was there a deal?] It wasn't really a deal Bobby was told by Senator Eastland that's what would happen. [Interviewer-unintelligible] You said you heard about a deal.

I don't think, I would not call it any deal between Bobby and Senator Eastland. Senator Eastland told him that the Freedom Riders would be arrested when they got to Jackson. That they would not be hurt in any way and they would not be injured but that they would be arrested and put in jail. He told Bobby that. I don't think Bobby agreed to it, Bobby wasn't in a position to agree or disagree. That was better than they're being beaten up. [Interviewer-Yeah, but] What was it Bobby was [?] to do? [Interviewer-But on the other hand, right right on the other hand you at the justice department right and this is the justice department,right? You knew perfectly well that the Freedom Riders were not breaking any laws.] That's right. [Interviewer-And so

the senator from Mississippi is telling you we're going to arrest them but you're at the very least, your hands are tied and you can't do anything about it] That's the way we felt. [Interviewer-Explain how you felt because my statement's not going to be....] At that point that was what we were told would happen by the senator, we didn't feel at that point we should therefore bring in the army, bring in buses of military around and, and to help the Freedom Riders complete their ride. What was the point of that? It would not produce a result that helped the Freedom Riders, it would not the produce a result that helped the government, it would not produce a result that helped civil rights. [Interviewer-I'd like, Mr Katzenback for you

to let me know if you can, if you feel comfortable doing...that that that that you did know, right, of course you knew, you guys are the best lawyers in the country. You knew that these people had not broken the law.] I have, I have said repeatedly and I've said on this program that the Freedom Riders were exercising rights that they were entitled to exercise, I had no doubt about that. And those rights were entitled to be protected first by the local state authorities local authorities state authorities and eventually if it was possible by the federal government and that would've been nice if we had a means to do it that made any sense that would've been helpful, would have been very nice but somehow rather in 1961 and 2 and 3 the world wasn't that way. [Interviewer-I guess the reason why I'm asking you again and I know for you it might seem like I'm asking the same question

but what I'm trying to get at is that you know when you make...unintelligible] All that we can do when they arrest them and I'm not sure we could've done it then but all that anybody else could have done would have been brought a lawsuit against the false arrest and false imprisonment, a habeas corpus action if they're still in jail. A damage suit if they'd been falsely arrested and the legal defense fund I think I think I would be right in saying for the most part, both CORE and the legal defense fund were and I know the legal defense was more interested in putting those resources into school cases and they were putting them into these cases CORE I think was interested and I guess to some extent did. I'm not sure that we had the authority, I just don't remember. It would've required legislation to have given us the authority to have

gone in on their behalf. We did not have it in school cases unless we could get the court to let us do it as an amicus friend of the court and I don't, we didn't have it. We had it in voting rights cases we could. I don't think we had it in Freedom Rider cases until we, which of the end of the Freedom Riders we did, til we brought that suit against the interstate commerce commission requiring them to to integrate all the buses and to enforce the law, commerce commission enforce the law against the bus companies and the states. [Interviewer-Unintelligible ...I think happened in Mississippi was... when you know ....arrest the Freedom Riders...

and you know....you guys at the Justice Department... that's better than beating them up and maybe killed..... There's only 21 Freedom Riders at that point. Do you remember feeling in Washington when you realized there were going to be waves and waves not just going to be 21 people anymore it's going to be hundreds....] Yes, I remember the feeling, the feeling was one of frustration. If we're going to get all these Freedom Riders and that's putting pressure on us to do something that we think is not going to result, have the results that they think it will have. [Interviewer-What do you mean it's going to put pressure on....] The only tool we had was to bring in the army if there was violence. That was the only tool we had. Nothing else that we could do.

[Interviewer-At this a point I think once again Bobby Kennedy meets with SNCC and Core and the Freedom Riders and asks them to call it off. Do you remember that at all?] I don't remember that actually. But it makes sense to say that if there were any Freedom Riders left they just were some more just starting off. [Interviewer-At some point why did you decide to petition the [?] why was that?] We we're looking for things that we could do that would help to satisfy and vindicate what the Freedom Riders were doing. We felt that using troops to protect them every time there was a danger of violence, even if we could do that, was not going to accomplish very much. One of the people in my office came up and said why don't we petition the Interstate Commerce Commission and require them, put the burden on them

to require the bus companies to make sure that we're protecting integrated passengers and to make sure that there's no discrimination and no segregated facilities in bus terminals. And so we went and approached the Interstate Commerce Commission asked them if they'd do this and they said they didn't think they had the authority to do it and we said we thought they did and so Bobby Kennedy sued them and we went to court, it took a little while and the commission then unanimously decided that they did have the authority to do that. And that was I think, it was a victory for the Freedom Riders they felt they'd accomplished something and I think in addition to that Bobby Kennedy went out of his way to try to help get some funding for some of the other projects that they had going. [Interviewer-One of the things I'm not clear about, the laws are already

books that these places are supposed to be non segregated so why do you have to petition the ICC, what does that do?] Well the petitioning the ICC puts the burden on the ICC to make the bus companies and the owners of the state if it is the bus company facilities make sure that their law is being complied with,so it shifts the burden off of a lawsuit by CORE to something that the government could do. We couldn't bring a lawsuit, CORE could. Now we were creating a situation where at least the Interstate Commerce Commission could bring that lawsuit. [Interviewer-So talk about one of the things that happened

that is concrete so that lay people can understand is that now the signs come down, talk about that so this is what the...]Well the Interstate Commerce Commission required various things to happen, including taking down signs that segregated restrooms and so forth in bus terminals. But you know, in point of fact, even that took time. The whole, what the civil rights groups were looking for and god knows they deserved it, they'd been looking for it for over a century. They're looking for a quick solution and in point of fact there was no quick solution. [Interviewer-You know, I'm not so sure, I think maybe] Well, you should of been in the administration then because we couldn't find it. [Interviewer-I'm not sure that what they they were looking for was a quick solution. I have no doubt that that that, in that

if you look back on the history of this country, in some ways it was a quick solution. If you're talking about 350 years and you if look at the way this country has changed] In that respect it was, but I think they were looking for something immediate. They wanted the the army to come in. I think, they certainly said that to us. [Interviewer-And what did you say to them?] Usually we say we didn't yet have the authority to bring it in. Which I don't think we did. [Interviewer-OK cut.] Did get a result and they got it, what, within three years, four years and without all of that happening that result never could've happened. We never could have the legislation if it were not for what Dr King and for all the others you know for uhhh people

for Jim Forman for uhhh all the others, for all the SNCC leaders, for for everybody that was involved in that. It wouldn't have happened. [Interviewer-There's one thing that n your book, in the epilogue that where you talk about the same kind of thing that I found really moving part of book. I'm paraphrasing but you kind of talk about the bravery and the rightness of what the Freedom Riders were fighting] There is no question, yes. [Interviewer-Talk about that.] There's no question, it never was a question in my mind that what the Freedom Riders were doing and what happened with them in particular and with many others throughout the south were acts of incredible bravery. Because you do perfectly well that

the chances were very very high that you would be beaten, you could be badly injured, you could be killed. And I think without that kind of bravery and without that kind of demonstration of that bravery you never could have had any resolution by the Congress of the United States and by the people. [Interviewer-So this bravery was part of what helped to change...] No question about the fact. There's no question about the fact that the demonstration of bravery and the demonstration of determination and demonstration that no matter what you do to us we're not gonna quit. No matter how much we're beaten up, no matter how much or hurt, no matter how much we're injured. we won't give up. We will continue to do this, we'll continue to pinch that nerve until you can't stand it. And that's what happened. [Interviewer-OK, cut.]

Little 10 year olds ,12 year olds, 13 year olds involved. Knowing that they too faced the risk from adults. And demonstrating for their rights. It's very very moving. [Interviewer-So we just need one more...[? if we could, and this can be really short, your petition to the ICC what did it make the bus companies do? I guess it's kind of taking down the signs and...] What the petition

did was to make the bus companies comply with the law and take passengers in an integrated fashion where they paid their fare to go. And whatever the risks it were it was required to do that and the same was true of the terminals They were required to de-segregate everything that they previously segregated to protect passengers within there[?] in a de-segregated way. And that was that accomplishing something although just making that, just having the FCC the Interstate Commerce Commission commission,ICC say that didn't accomplish everything all at once but it went part of the way and eventually it did accomplish that. [Interviewer-OK, I need, if you can say the word Russians] Russians. [Again] Russians.

say soviets if you want to cry